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Night 7: Haelbarde Straw and Hadrian Heatherlocke stared at each other from across the open hall, both surprised. It was rare for the two heirs to run into each other on accident these days. The Keep was empty of nobles, and all but the most trusted servants. Only the necessary staff were here. Straw nodded to his cousin. “Hadrian.” Hadrian nodded back. “What are you doing out and about?” Hadrian sighed. “I’m leaving the keep. Auden, Dbec, and Leets have proven that we are not safe here. I’m taking our guards with me.” Straw nodded. “Good idea. I’m glad I had the same one. I’ve had the Hazekillers assemble to escort me.” There was a pause, as the cousins considered each other. They had spent the last week worrying about who in the Keep they could trust, but with Auden’s death, and subsequent proof that he had been the one to poison Lord Rab, they could again trust each other. Hadrian moved first, and Straw moved to meet him. They grasped eacother’s hands, and shook. “Good luck Cousin.” “Hopefully we will meet again, some happier day.” Lord Hadrian Heatherlocke, surrounded by the House Guard, personally walked down the streets of Luthadel. Auden and Taswell had both died in their carriages, because they could not see their surroundings. He would not repeat their mistakes. He had a solid wall of steel and flesh around him, with a smaller, looser ring inside that. He had room to maneuver, scouts in side streets and ahead of him, and all the power of his own Iron Allomancy to keep himself safe. It would take nothing short of an army to take him down. There was a commotion at the front of the wall of troops, and one of his scouts slipped in. The man approached, then knelt several meters away. “Lord Hadrian, there are more guards ahead. An army, equal to us. They are currently attempting to barricade several streets, blocking us in. They are killing our scouts.” “Blast.” Hadrian looked up and down the streets. There was no easy way to fight in here. The alleyways and side streets provided too many opportunities for others to get ahead and around his troops. “We need to get through them before they can finish their defenses.” “A good strategy my lord.” Rumbled his Captain. “Shall we form up into a charge, or continue in our current formation?” “I’ve never lead warfare in a city Captain. I’ll let you give the orders. Keep me safe.” The Captain slammed a fist into his armor in a salute, and began to give orders. The guards compressed the perimeter around Lord Hadrian, and began to advance down the street, more Heatherlocke guards arriving from the side streets. Archers began to scale buildings around the street, jumping from roof to roof. And then the other army appeared. There was a call from the front, and an opposing wall of Steel and Flesh swung around the corner ahead. They slammed into the front rank of the Heatherlockes, and men began to scream as they died. “Lord Ruler.” The captain examined the scene. “They must have abandoned their ambush when they saw the scout escape.” “Is it safe to go around them?” “We’ve lost too many scouts sir. We don’t know where around them is. We have to hold this street, and wait for an opportunity to punch through. Once we can — Arrgh!” Hadrian jerked away from the captain, as a large man in a vest fell on him, slamming him into the ground. The man drew back one fist, and punched clean through the captain’s helmet, killing him. A Coinshot landed beside the Thug, panting. “damnation you’re heavy. I don’t want to do any more Combat drops.” Hadrian pulled the captain’s sword from his sheathe and into his hand. He jumped backward away from the pair as his guards began to turn towards the new threat. But then a spray of coins and nails shot down from above, mowing down a section of guards. Another Coinshot, with a Thug holding onto his back, fell from the sky. “We’ll deal with the guards, you two kill Hadrian.” He recognized the man. Zakhary Tormander. Hadrian pulled a shield from a nearby guard, and charged, not giving them time to reply. The first coinshot smirked and pushed against Hadrian. But Hadrian only grinned, and pulled on all the guards behind the coinshot. His sword, and all the metal on him rammed against him, but the force of his pull still gave him enough speed to get close. The Coinshot stepped back in shock as Hadrian rammed a sword through his belly. The Thug punched him in the head. Hadrian dropped the sword and shield as he sailed into the ranks of his guards, who quickly grabbed him and got him onto his feet. He gasped in pain as his vision flickered in and out of focus. The Thug charged forward, knocking aside guards like a Koloss. He tore through their ranks even as they formed more. Hadrian breathed in, trying to catch his breath and regain his mental capacities. The Thug reached him first. Straw Heatherlocke cracked his dueling cane against the Thug attacking him. The Ffnord noble dropped, out for the count. Straw stood as 1 point in a pentagon, his back to his last 4 hazekillers. Surrounding them were several dozen guards and another half dozen Allomancers. The Allomancers and the Guards didn’t seem to be working together, but they had attacked at the same time. Together, they had killed 20 of Straws expert Hazekillers. Together, Straw and his 24 Hazekillers had killed 100 guards, and a dozen allomancers. All the coinshots were dead, so now it was just melee combat. The allomancers all focused on him, and the guards focused on his Hazekillers. There would be no help coming, unless Hadrian somehow learned of his plight. So they fought. Straw deflected two Glass daggers, wielded by yet another Thug, and directed the man into one of his fellows. Seemed like the Ffnords had sent every Thug they had after him, learning from the last several attempts on his life. He grinned as he fought, deflecting blow after blow, with the best of the best at his back. There was no force in the kingdom stronger than his hazekillers. “Above!” Straw glanced up at the call from one of his men. He gasped, and nearly died from the distraction, but managed to block at the last minute. Above them, barely seeable through the thick steel bars of the Prison Cart, was a mistborn. He was floating a good 40 meters above them, Steelpushing presumably, and holding onto one of the Lord ruler’s Prison cart’s with a combination of Lurching and Pewter burning. Desperately, Staw looked for some way out, but they were surrounded, penned in. He glanced up again, only to see that the mistborn had dropped the cart. “I was so close—” the cart slammed down. ----- Staw was killed by the Ffnords! Araris was killed by the Tormanders! The Heatherlocke winner will be revealed at the end of the game. This cycle will be another night cycle, since we want the Ffnords to have some say in which one of them wins. Player list: (Jondesu) RemartFfnord (Fifth Scholar) Count Olaf Ffnord (Crimsn Wolf) Altea Meza Heron (Orlok Tsubodai) Locke Tormander

Warning: This post discusses romantic relationships, so do not proceed if that it not your thing At Brandon's signing last weekend, we got an interesting WoB where a fan asked about Kaladin's proficiency with the spear... and Brandon ended up taking the conversation around to a Connection (appears to be Cosmere capitalized Connection) between Syl and Shallan. I am specifically interested in the latter point. The link for the WoB is here and text below, with the part about Syl and Shallan in bold. I'll discuss my thoughts after the text. The scene Brandon is mentioning is in WoR, text copied below, and I personally had no idea this was supposed to be Shallan. At the very least, this is a specific reveal that Syl "knew" Shallan, in a similar way to the fact she "knew" Kaladin prior to actually meeting her. (With hopefully a different outcome though! Don't know how I'd feel about Syl bonding Shallan... ) The context for this is that Kaladin is training his men in the chasms, and Syl is discussing the danger she faced in coming to find Kaladin. On the face of it, she is encouraging Kaladin that he is not alone, that other spren are struggling against the prohibition for bonding humans, and there will be other Radiants. Syl of course doesn't actually know Shallan, when Shallan finally shows up at the Shattered Plains, Syl doesn't recognize her, know she is a Radiant, or even sense Pattern except maybe vaguely at the 4v1 duel (there's a number of spren she could have sensed then though.) But something about the Connection between Shallan and Syl in the Spiritual Realm allows Syl to "see" Shallan in that moment. Brandon analogizes that moment to Kaladin's affinity for his spear and Syl and Kaladin's own bond. In other words... "fun Cosmere connections" language aside, it seems pretty significant. One of the things we see in OB is that Syl really likes Shallan. She encourages Kaladin multiples times to pursue Shallan, pushing against his own wishes; I would argue Kaladin would not have made even the (small) overtures he did towards Shallan if it wasn't for Syl's insistence. Syl and Shallan hang out in Shadesmar without Kaladin, including the fact Syl wants to remain with Shallan in Celebrant. (This is of course partially due to Shallan's lightweaving skills, but Syl at that point already had a lightwoven disguise.) Syl is also skeptical of Shallan's choice of Adolin at the end of OB, encouraging Kaladin to continue his pursuit, and indicating she can't see Shallan's "choice is made". All in all, we know Syl has a Connection to Shallan through the Spiritual Realm (where everything is one), and that these types of connections are "echoes" of events that are forming, not something as strong as "destiny", but still a definite "something is there." And since Syl is constantly pushing Kaladin towards Shallan, I think there's a great inference to made that Syl is "knowing" something about Shallan which is not yet explicit in real time in the Physical Realm. While not for certain (as nothing is until confirmed as such), the fact Brandon spontaneously brought this up in a question that had literally nothing to do with romance or Shallan at all, seems to be him pointing towards yet another piece of foreshadowing for Shalladin, one which was not apparent from the text, but he obviously seeded a long time ago.

Given that I am hardly a realmatics expert and find much of it confusing, what I'm about to say should be taken with a grain of salt, as this is my understanding of realmatics. I've always kind of seen the spiritual realm as kind of like a pool connecting past, present and future, as well as people and place. In the spiritual realm, past, present and future all happen concurrently, so a connection formed in the future could have a sort of "ripple" effect, kind of like if you dropped a rock into a pond. Those ripples would then spread throughout time, creating tiny, subtle connections you would see formed in the present and past, since all three are happening right now. It's not destiny, as much as it's evidence of something that is happening. <I'm not sure if that made sense. Metaphysics hurts my brain...> So with that rough explanation out of the way, I had always interpreted that scene to be Syl mimicking something she'd seen, or trying out a new face. I never would have made that connection without Brandon explicitly stating that Syl was turning into Shallan. We know, from ample textual evidence however, that Shallan is kind of akin to Tien in Kaladin's mind in terms of significance. Regardless of if romance is involved, the fact that Shallan is the only other person, apart from Tien, that Kaladin specifically states drives the darkness away is hugely important. In my experience with depression, people that do that are few and far between, and usually become people that you hold very tightly to. I would also like to reiterate that Syl's gravitation toward Shallan should not be taken lightly. She repeatedly asserts that not only should Kaladin pursue Shallan, but that Shallan is better for Kaladin. That Kaladin is happier with Shallan. In fact, most of the time it is Kaladin who squashes the idea, even at the end of Oathbringer. Personally, I think it's largely self-pity. He doesn't think he deserves her. He's messed things up in the past, and she deserves someone who can give her better. Adolin is, in his mind, a perfect candidate for that, and she already seems to love him. And he tries to convince himself that that is true, but like the Jiminy Cricket she is, Syl continues to try to push Kaladin toward something better.

It's definitely fascinating that Brandon chose to reveal that detail on such an unrelated question. The word that seems to have sent him on that tangent is destiny. @Alderant's explanation of past, present and future occurring concurrently in the spiritual realm is a good theory for why "destiny" isn't quite the right word to explain the connection between Syl and Shallan (or by extension Kaladin and Shallan). But apparently their future connection is akin enough to destiny in his mind that it led him to what seems like a wholly unrelated answer. It seems like maybe Brandon specifically wanted to reveal that it was Shallan that Syl took the appearance of in that scene. In context, you could perhaps guess that is what was going on (Syl is talking about others becoming Radiant and we know Shallan is one of those, and we see Shallan on the ocean shore at the beginning of the next chapter) but you'd never be sure if Brandon hadn't confirmed it since the text is quite subtle. So basically I agree that it is significant that Syl pushes Kaladin towards Shallan so much and even at the end of OB she does not seem convinced that Shallan made her choice of Adolin. I relate that to what we've seen from Syl in the past, pushing Kaladin along his path as a Radiant, at times knowing what he needs to do when he does not. I think we see similar things from Pattern towards Shallan in OB, (though she doesn't listen to him for the most part). We've also seen Syl say that as she learns things it is like she always knew them, and there are indications that she "remembers" things related to Kaladin that she wasn't around for, so there seems to be a past connection as well.

Sixth of the Dusk Edgedancer Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell Stormlight Archive [OB spoilers] Mistborn Original Trilogy Mistborn Wax and Wayne [BoM and SH spoilers] That’s all I’m doing for now. This is really fun!

This scene happened at the end of Words of Radiance, while the rest of Bridge Four were across the continent, in Urithiru.The only way The Lopen could absorb stormlight was if he began to bond a spren or have a honorblade. We know he had a spren at the end of Oathbringer, and he was saving swearing his oaths until a dramatic moment. I not saving he kept his bond a secret for a whole book, he might not of knew he was bonding a spren, but he was never a squire just a potential Knight Radiant. It could also just be a continuity mistake.

Well, good job Orlok on neatly eliminating the possibility of a Kandra win. Guess we have to try to kill each other again, Jondesu. Count Olaf stood amidst the corpses of Hadrian and Straw. Their sightless eyes gazed uncaringly at the spectacle around them, where men lay dead in heaps, killed by coin and sword and staff. His arrest force of Guards had been sent to detain Straw on suspicion of skaa blood in his family line, but it had quickly joined with the House Allomancers Remart had sent. Together, they had killed him. Though Olaf had not known Straw well, he certainly hadn’t wished the man dead. He mouthed a silent vow of vengeance against Remart for his callous act of bloodshed, and moved to Hadrian’s corpse. This one hurt more to look upon. Killed, it seemed, by Locke Tormander, a man Olaf thought he knew. He had assured Olaf that all he wanted in the city was a seat of power. Yet what was that man doing with his newfound supremacy over the Tormanders? Olaf shuddered, and moved his eyes away from Hadrian’s corpse. Not quickly enough, however, to fail to notice the small pouch of atium beads tied to the man’s belt. He unhooked it, and within it was a note: Count Olaf Ffnord, If you are reading this, then either I or a political opponent is dead. I am a man of my word; when you conspired to place me on the Heatherlocke throne, you did so because you knew you wanted someone who would not play the political games of the nobility. So if I am alive, take this as a further sign of my goodwill. I am freely gifting you Atium which my own skaa have mined. As per my word. You will also find a sheet in here detailing instructions as to how to contact the kandra in my employ should I die or my Contract be passed. Pay him with these beads, and await further instructions. I know you do not want Remart truly dead; this may provide another way. I will tell you if and when to use these, and together we may yet enact real change in Luthadel. If, however, you have pulled this missive off my corpse, know then that this Atium is still yours, by my will and word. If legal contracts need be given, you will find a paper in my desk drawer. There’s a false back to the second drawer on the right; you’ll find it there. Unfortunately, my kandra will have returned to his people for reassignment. But I’m sure that Atium will be useful to you in other ways. Use it wisely, and do not let it fall into the hands of our enemies. For they are still crafty, and may yet find a way to use it. Be vigilant, for where there’s smoke, there’s fire. But the world is quiet here. Hadrian Heatherlocke Olaf wept silently, shielding his face with his hood so as not to let others see his tears. Hadrian was truly dead. But he glanced down at the small parcel in his hand. This Atium is yours, by my will and word... yet Olaf found within himself a deep, intense hatred for everything that parcel represented. Hadrian, who would not die peacefully but haunt his memory. The slaughter and instability, brought about by the initial poisoning of all the house lords at the ball. And the potential for murder and domination, if he simply pocketed it and walked away. But no. In his youth he would have done such a thing, but no longer. Motivated by a sudden impulse, Olaf sprinted towards Hadrian’s house. He pushed his way past the Ministry guards at the door, who were surprised but did not question him thanks to his high status. He took the stairs two at a time up to Hadrian’s study, where he finally paused, panting. He opened the second desk drawer to the right, and almost fearfully, pushed back the false panel in the back. Within it was a very short note: I, Hadrian Heatherlocke, bequeath all the Atium in my possession to Olaf of Ffnord. Olaf screamed, unwilling to accept what his eyes saw. He could not own this metal, which left so much death and destruction in its wake. Crumpling Hadrian’s note and tossing it in the fireplace, he took Hadrian’s letter and scrawled on the back of it: May whoever finds this drawer know that Hadrian was a great man. Use his gift wisely. For I cannot accept this curse. Olaf of Ffnord. Olaf placed the letter and the parcel in Hadrian’s secret compartment, closed it quietly, and walked out into the nighttime rain, weeping. Sorry you had to die, Araris. I hugely enjoyed working with you the whole game.

When you're thinking about Toy Story, and then you start thinking.. Maybe the toys are invested.. Maybe that's how investiture expresses itself on this planet.. So is this on Earth.. No, must be some other Shardworld.. So, can the investiture from the toys be used by humans?.. or maybe the investiture is in humans.. yeah, that works better.. But when kids personify their toys, and give them so much love and attention, they start drawing in investiture and gaining sentience... I overthink things when I'm bored. Although, This really makes sense when you look at something called the Pixar theory... Not sure If anyone else here knows what I'm talking about

In reference to my memes:

It’s been stated that prior to arriving in the Rosharan System, Odium paid a visit to Sel to check out the scenery, kill a couple of Gods, usual touristy stuff. By what I can gather, this happened quite some time before the Reod, and predates Shu-Keseg, the parent religion of Shu- Dereth, leaving a lot of time in the aftermath for the events of that interaction to fall into legend and myth. Brandon has also said that if you looked hard enough you could find the influence of Odium on Sel still. During the events of Elantris, it is said that Jadeth is an old pagan God who cared for the stones, but Shu-Dereth thrust him into their mythology when it split from Shu-Keseg proper. Considering the connection between Odium and Stone in stormlight archive, this is at least plausible. This isn’t to say that Shu-Dereth worships Odium directly, or that Dakhor Magic is of his power, as their religion and culture obviously fit better with Dominion. However, over time images of deities can shift and blend. Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly. Dilaf’s motives in the story are driven much more by hatred than domination, and so it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. An eye for an eye, as the saying went, was not enough. For Zaffer, double agent, Scarf-stealer, liar, deciever, monster, even, did not play to get even. He played to get ahead. There were rules, yes, but they were created by something lesser than him, something that was mortal. The sound of a hundred footsteps marching in unison pounded towards Zaffer, the sound of death. He raced across the rooftops, casting off the cloak that had covered his true form, not a litteral cloak, but a mental one. He grew larger, his muscles becoming more defined, the slight limp to his step disappearing, and he returned to what he truly was, a Returned. A God. He leaped with the strength of 10 men, his legs now pulsing with the energy of life. The footsteps began to fade, but it would not be long before they caught back up. He quickly whipped out a rope, his target underneath him. And gave the simple command, "Entangle." He entered an old warehouse, it was out of the way, but it was where is true work went on, eight figures stood there silently, each the modified form of those that had destroyed by the hatred of their brothers and sisters. The last one was ready, and he quickly spoke to it, Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and at my word. Technicolor Scarf. As he gave the newest, and last, lifeless the new Security Phrase, he draped the scarf that he stole earlier across its shoulders, a slight glint still registering somewhere in his brain. He went down the line saying each security phrase, one after another, each decorated with a beautiful work of art, that seemed to contain more than just beauty, but souls. Now that they were all ready, Zaffer spoke a final command. "Destroy Shu." And the Lifeless left. The pounding of footsteps slowly returned, drawing closer to him, and he flung his 'cloak' back on him, his form returning to that of a cripple, his leg flaring with pain. The steps were closer now, closing in on him, but Zaffer was content, not only would Shu be killed, but the only source of information along with him. A pounding echoed on his door, that was followed with the sharp sound of cracking wood. Zaffer kept his eyes clothes, and could feel the sting as a blade but into his eye. Shu had been walking, having talked his way our of death, convincing those that he was good. That was when the Rope fell. It entangled him, tying his arms together in tight knots, dropping him where he stood. He moved slowly, the Rope seeming to loosen, and slowly worked his way out. His left hand was free, quickly followed by his right, his legs following after. He got to his feet, and saw someone he knew standing at the end of the road. "You wouldn't believe what just happened to me!" He exclaimed "Lucky, I-" he cut off as he realized that Lucky was dead, yet was somehow standing in front of him. Lifeless he thought, slowly backing away. Lucky advanced on him, and he turned to run, only to slam right into Vaati, knocking him to the ground. After orienting himself, he looked up only to be surrounded by dead faces, each adorned with some odd trinket. He looked at each face, Gormund, Jaaver, Straw, Mac, Salthis, along with Vaati and Lucky from before. Their hands began to decend towards him, and he let out a single scream as his eye was ripped from his socket. The guards in the area quickly rushed towards the sound of the scream, and found was used to be a body surrounded by Lifeless. They took out their weapons, and began to chop the Lifeless apart, hoping to stop anything like this from happening to anyone else. As the Scarf hit the ground, the deal was done. An eye for an eye, and more. This writeup has been brought to you by: @Droughtbringer! Go upvote them. Vote Tally Drought (7)- Shqueeves, Brightness, Devotary, Monster, Ripple, Arinian, Ecthelion Shqueeves (2)- Drought, Joe Drought has been lynched! Identity of the deceased: Shqueeves has been murdered! Identity of the deceased: Player List 1. A Joe in the Bush as Jeo the Yellow 2. Elenion as Gormund Oscarson Idrian 3. Randuir as commander Jaaver Idrian Captain 4. Livinglegend as Lucky Idrian Sentry 5. Shqueeves as Shu Idrian Awakener 6. Bort as Bort the Brute Idrian Captain 7. BrightnessRadiant as Ivy 8. Straw as Straw Idrian 9. TheMightyLopen as Vaati Idrian 10. MacThorstenson as Mac Idrian 11. Devotary of Spontaneity as Fahmexa 12. Ecthelion as Eärendil 13. Coop772 as Salthis Idrian 14. MonsterMetroid as Roid 15. Droughtbringer as Zaffer Hallandren Awakener 16. RippleGylf as Sarcoline 17. Arinian as Elien Rollover

I own several pens, but I have not named them.

So I was thinking about my super awesome Spirit Web topic (seriously, go read it. It's in my signature. Some of my best theory work). In particular, I wanted to address the issues some people were bringing up with my idea of Adonalsiums origin. So, today I developed a proof of why it seems logical. Given: The Universe of the Cosmere started similar to our own, and dumped out matter, energy, and investiture into existence The Spirit Realm encompasses all perfect ideals Matter, Energy, and Investiture began to clump in the early universe, just like ours No intervention from a God Beyond Investiture, as it clumps, naturally creates sentience there was no other life at the beginning Therefore, Adonalsium would have formed as all the investiture clumped together- since there was nothing else to form spirit webs for. Furthermore, as the mind inhabiting the ultimate soul (A mind a soul, anyone?), Adonalsium would be the ultimate ideal being- God, for all intents and purposes, naturally created by the processes of the universe. His mind would arbitrarily form in the location of the Cosmere, explaining the localization of so much life. And as the ideal God, Adonalsium created things. More conditions, becoming more speculative: Adonalsium comprises essentially the entire Spirit Realm, with a truly infinite mind to control all investiture Life has a greater personal spirit web- that would no longer be a part of Adonalsium's web. Adonalsium's ideal nature forces it to create life Therefore, over time, Adonalsium would become smaller, and no longer comprise all investiture- becoming less idyllic, and maybe losing the infinite mind thing. An issue with this is that it is unclear how much life Adonalsium would have to have created to make a noticeable difference in it's personality. It is possible that while I am pretty sure this mechanic would occur under the assumptions I described, that the actual effect is trivial. However, it does bring to mind another thing- as it loses investiture, Adonalsium may have begun taking its drive to create life to an extreme degree, or even altered it in another way. However Adonalsium ended up in the spot that it did, it got to the point where it got shattered. Given that I think it was an infinite mind, it could see the future. It could see its own death. All it would have had to do was not create life. Or even not create those people who shattered it. Given that it didn't, its own perfect nature must have driven it to create life, no matter the consequences. This feels EXTREMELY likely to me in terms of the Cosmere. First off, it matches with the theme that Ideals aren't always perfect. It matches with the idea of Gods not being able to control their will. And also, the idea of a God that naturally forms- and dies- as a result of the laws of the universe seems extremely cool. It feels like the kind of narrative that would fit into the Cosmere. Finally, it would put to rest any idea of anyone reforming Adonalsium. According to this, Adonalsium formed from all investiture, and naturally had an infinite mind, making it able to control all investiture. A human mind is limited. That is why Shards are limited in power, their minds can only handle so much, even when amplified by investiture (even though making aspects might be a cheat around this, at the cost of having one mind). Therefore, Hoid cannot recreate Adonalsium. Investiture has interwoven itself into the Cosmere. Between the Shards, invested planets, and all the investiture going on, Investiture isn't going to clump into an Adonalsium again unless you kill all life. And I don't think that is Hoid's goal. I hope my logic makes sense, and that at least some of my speculation seems plausable.

Because Time-Travel doesn't exist. How is she supposed to learn about something if there's nobody to learn from? Alendi was one of the first Allomancers. The only people who knew anything about the other Metals were the Synod(who were in hiding, and by HoA, all dead) and the Lord Ruler, who doesn't allow interviews. Khriss was only allowed the scraps of knowledge that TLR allowed anyone to know. The Steel Inquisitorius is responsible for Atium being in the Temporal Quadrant, and as the only ones who've experimented with it, they are the most authoritative source. This is also why the Atium steals anything tidbit didn't exist yet, because the Inquisitors hadn't discovered this until Ruin was freed. MB Era 2 Spoilers(on the assumption that you haven't read it yet) It's the same on Roshar, where there haven't been Surgebinders in nearly 2,500 years, and 4 losses of information since then(The Recreance, The Hierocracy, The Fire in the Palanaeum, etc..). She can't learn what nobody knows.

YES!! The Pixar theory is amazing and I believe that this might be the missing link we have needed all along! Investiture is the key! Mr. Potato Head is actually Hoid!!!

When I'm stuck in an irritating half-hour discussion elective, and then the discussion for the day is "do you reread books or rewatch shows?" and you try to remember if you are on your 8th or 9th reread of OB.

Okay so I managed to stop my Malazanv re-read long enough to read Angus Watson's Iron Age trilogy, which was interesting and funny but not really satisfying, and I can't help myself I HAVE TO READ REAPER'S GALE NOW ESP AFTER ALL YOUR COMMENTS. I am weak.

@podman36 How apposed are you towards the DA? When you make these: Vin as Valette, Hoid, Shallan, Syl, Raoden, and Jasnah. When you are on your sixth time reading tWoK. I've also read WoR five times, and OB twice.

Do you remember your first fantasy novel? The one where you knew it was something special. Starting it idly, not realizing you were plunging into not only into a book, but a genre (dare I say lifestyle) that would make a nice little nest in your heart? I have an unusually clear memory of mine. I was in 6th grade. I loved reading and was a fast reader, but didn't know much about fantasy (had an older brother deep into D&D and MtG, which had my parents mildly nervous). We were suppose to be reading My Friend Flicka. I'd finished it and was dangerously bored. My teacher let me go to his "free reading" shelf. There was a BIG book there. Like 500 pages. I was curious. Cover looks seriously intriguing (especially if you've been reading My Friend Flicka). (Good 'ol Shannara covers, So dated, so nostalgic) I kinda ignored the "Book Four" label. And despite having no idea what was happening in the story, I was HOOKED. ELVES??? DRUIDS? MAGIC SWORDS?? I didn't know this was a THING. Never looked back. From there it was Anne McCaffrey, Raymond E. Feist, L.E. Modesitt, Robert Jordan and anything else I could get my hands on at the public library.

Here I want to discuss coincidences (that meaning potential connections) you notice about the cosmere. For example, could "Kelek's breath" have anything to do with awakening? Please post anything you notice that you think deserves some looking into. I'll start off with the question I already gave: Why is "Kelek's breath" a saying? Is it because he came to Roshar from Nalthis, like Vasher did, or could it be something else, or is it just a saying? "Ash's eyes" means very little, as far as I can tell. Oh, and please warn of any spoilers, because I still haven't finished Well of Ascension and I'm one of those people who doesn't want anything spoiled. PS. Just to save you a bit of research (or a lot of looking like an idiot), it doesn't have anything to do with the ten essences. (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ten_Essences) You'll see that Shalash is associated with garnet, whose body focus is blood, not eyes. Kalak is associated with Amethyst, the nails.

*DISCLAIMER* This has been pretty much disproven at this point. Here's the WoB from my signed book that makes it obvious that the Sleepless were not created by Cultivation: Still some interesting posts in this thread, but the main premise is flawed. *END EDIT* This is a speculative theory to be sure, but I think there is a very good case to be made that the Dysian and Siah Aimians are of Cultivation. Possibly even the case that the Aimians are to Cultivation what the Honorblades are to Honor, heavily invested intentionally created splinters of Shardic Investiture created Specifically to fight Odium. I. QUICK SUMMARY OF THEORY: The Siah and Dysian Aimians are splinters of Cultivation that are Independent operatives of Cultivation that are used instrumentally to affect her long term plans. The Dysian Aimians, being deathless, never sleeping, with a body comprised of a widely dispersed array of sensate sub-organisms, are uniquely positioned to monitor everything of Interest to Cultivation. These sub-organims, the hordelings, of a given Sleepless are not just a vast sensor array (though they are that for sure), they also are able to manipulate their environment, and I believe, one of the likely ways that they are able to manipulate their environment is by increasing a proximate sentient being's access to Positive Fortune (or Luck). The Siah Aimians exist because of the strictures of the Old Magic, Fortune is both Positive and Negative, so in order to create the Dysian's Aimians Cultivation had to balance out the Sleepless' boon of bestowing Postive Fortune by creating a separate species that had a Negative Fortune (or Bad Luck) effect on proximate sentient beings. Bad luck, when controlled, can be used just as Instrumentally as good luck. I believe that the Old Magic paradigm is a net neutral framework, the positive boon has be offset (I think in equal magnitude) by the negative boon. I think this is one of the restrictions of Cutltivation's shardic Intent, and I think this is part of the aspect of natural balance that she represents. We know that Cultivation has influenced Dalinar, Lift and Taravangian directly through their intentional trips to the Valley of the Old Magic. I posit that the Aimians are more akin to her operatives in the field, responsible for gathering specific information, tracking specific people and for making infinitesimal and constant adjustments to all of Roshar to keep her plans in line. II. PRELIMINARY REMARKS: We know that Cultivation has been active on Roshar from this WoB: We also know that Cultivations shardic intent is fairly complicated, and is more compatible with the Intent of Ruin than Odium's Intent is from this WoB: This would seem to suggest that she is not a shard whose Intent would be viewed as solely Good or Bad, but rather as a more complicated case of an Abstraction of a natural process. But I believe, given the net neutral constraint of her shardic intent, she has cleverly figured out how to create tools that balance each other out, but when taken as a whole still maintain a net neutrality to the system. We know from this WoB that the Old Magic has been intentionally developed to be opaque, so the best way to approach an intentionally opaque system is reasoned surmises (added bold emphasis): I think this might be more in reference to the unpredictability of the boon/bane, but it's an interesting point. All life on Roshar, with the very possible exception of Shinovar, is Invested with Cultivations power due to the crem/highstorm cycle. All the supporting WoB's for this are spoilered below: Cultivation, through her being invested in the crem from which all food (except in Shinovar) grows and which is found in trace amounts of all water drunk on Roshar (except possible shiovar), has invested all sentient life to a small degree. I believe this would give her Aimian gardeners a sympathetic anchor for their proximate Fortune affects to push or pull on the individual Fortunes of the sentient beings that need to be effected. Here is the WoB that shows that Parshedi can bet boon/curses from the Nightwatcher as well: III. TEXTUAL AND WOB EXAMINATION OF THE AIMIANS: We know from this WoB the Aimians are functionally immortal (important bit bolded): And from this WoB: We know from this WoB that the Dysian Aimians, or Sleepless, are the authors of the In world quotes on the backs of the books: And here are the Sleepless quotes: From TWoK: From WoR: and from OB: All of these taken together show a very active and prescient degree of surveillance, the Sleepless are obviously watching the fledgling knights radiant, and further they have insight into the deep seated motivations and broken natures of the fledging Knights. There are 2 possible reasons why they are watching: They are watching in regards to their own plans/self interest. They are watching them in regards to another's plans/interests (I think this is by far the most likely) The only Dysian Aimian that we have seen as a fully articulate character (and not just an unusual cremling that happens to be around when something important is happening) is Arclo from Edgedancer. Here are some quotes that @Wit Beyond Measure pulled out of Edgedancer that are quite informative: Though honor is not captilized in the quote, it does seem to be hinting that the Sleepless may having been fighting in this war since the days when Honor the shard was still alive (but this is a surmise) and we have this: This implies a certain amount of autonomy for an individual sleepless, but also suggests a broader coordination of their collective actions as well. We know from Edgedancer that Arclo's pet immortal project is to build a grand Philosophy, but I think being immortal and never requiring sleep would give the Sleepless the time to fulfill their primary function of information gathering / slight nudges of influence to help along Cultivations plans while also tending their own pet projects. And finally this: And we have this WoB that might shed some light on how this is accomplished, specifically the holding of memories portion: So, the use of Hemalurgy on a specific singular organism would cause the Sleepless to lose contact with that individual cremling, so this seems to imply that all of the composite cremlings of a particular sleepless are linked by a Spiritual Connection. And further that the spiritual connection is necessary for the Sleepless to do things like store memories into a individual cremling. This is like a living coppermind, and I posit that some form of usable Investiture is necessary for this transferrance to occur, and is likely derived from Cultivation. This is an interesting WoB that explains a little bit more about what the Sleepless actually are (and is inline with my theory that they are a heavily Invested Identity with access to Investiture that allows them to coordinate/disperse this Identity and Connection to all of the composite beings that make up their total being: IV. THE TWO AIMIANS AND NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE FORTUNE I think that one of the fundamental properties of the Old Magic is that it is a balanced magical system. For something positive to be given, something negative has to be given as well to achieve a net neutral state. I think this is pretty obviously manifest in the nature of the boons/curses given by the Nightwatcher, but I think this might also be visible in the two different species of Aimians, with the Dysian Aimians given the boon of Positive Fortune (Good Luck) and the Siah Aimians given the curse of Negative Fortune (Bad Luck). So, we know that the Siah Aimians are believed by Rosharans to be Bad Luck, and further that they are thought to leave curses in their wake. Here is the section from the Rysn interlude in WoR where she sees our favorite spren collector hanging from his ankles: It's interesting to note that Rysn is worried most specifically about getting close to the Siah Aimian, as if the curse could be spread by mere proximity. The proof for Dysian Aimians have access to Positive Fortune is more tenuous, but I think this is a place where more textual analysis might be in order to try and find, after the appearance of a suspicious Cremling, if anything fortuitous happens to one of the Protagonists under surveillance. I will say that the we know that Hoid uses Fortune to always be where he needs to be (without knowing why he needs to be there), this could be something that the Sleepless also have, and given that their physical self is made up of innumerable small sensate organisms, this could be occurring in multiple simultaneous locations (pretty useful characteristic for a spy network to have, to always know when they need to be somewhere). And as @Wit Beyond Measure pointed out in her Moon Story Thread, there is the part in the Epilogue of WoR where Hoid is waiting for Jasnah Kholin to come back from Shadesmar and Hoid is talking to an ugly lizard-crab thing that Brandon has confirmed is a Dysian Aimian: Here's the WoB that confirms this: V. FURTHER PROOF THAT THE AIMIANS ARE WORKING WITH/FOR CULTIVATION AND AGAINST ODIUM: @Vortaan has a compelling theory that Soulcasters are similar in function and Composition to Honorblades, [OB] Soulcaster Engineering Principles. I would extend this to the reasonable surmise that Soulcasters were created by Cultivation. We know from the Kaza interlude that Roharan's used to get Soulcaster's from the Island of Akinah which is in Aimia. Further we know that at least one Dysian Aimian is guarding this Island. They could be guarding Akinah for their own reasons, or they could be guarding Akinah because they have been charged to do so. I favor the second option. One of the primary reasons the Sleepless cook gives for having to kill Kaza after she and her group penetrated the Magical Storm defense and bypassed the Soulcast shipwrecking artificial rock formations was this (bold emphasis added): The bolded portion above heavily implies that the Unmade Moleach might be able to get this information from Kaza. It is speculated in Hessi's Mythica that the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis is responsible for the Scouring of Aimia: So Aimia was (most likely) attacked by Odium, the reasons for this could be either he wanted to get something that was contained in Aimia or he wanted to destory the Aimians because they were an Antangonistic force. I believe it's a combination of both. We know from Dalina'r vision of Aharietiam that Dysian Aimians fought and died (there is a pile of smouldering cremling remains), and I believe that they have violet blood (which is described in the Prelude of TWoK when the Heralds abandon their Honorblades to be mixing on the field of battle with red and orange blood). The Sleepless themselves in the back of book quotes explicitly say that they are fighting with the New Radiants, and it is implied quite heavily, that they are fighting against the forces of Odium. But who is their general, who do they take orders from? Could be they are a group that is only protecting their own self interest, or they could be working in concert with Cultivation to try and undermine Odium's plans. And from the Urithiru Gem Archive we have a possible hint at what the Sleepless are guarding at Akinah: This is an interpolation, but with the "cost being the ends of worlds" for not keeping the secrets at Akinah protected, I think it is very likely that the undersea caverns contain the Dawn Shards. Another interesting point is that Akinah was one of the Cymatic cities that Kasbal mentions to Shallan in Kharbranth as a proof of the existence of the Almighty. VI. CONCLUDING REMARKS: This is just a theory, but I think that there is quite a bit of evidence to at the very least tie the Objectives of the Sleepless to the Objectives of Cultivation. And I think it's not too much of a stretch to say that not only do these Objectives align, but they are in fact the same, and the Sleepless are active agents of Cultivation. I think it might go even further, and that they are actually Splinters of Cultivation and further down the speculative chain, I think that the Siah Aimians are the necessary concomitant, the necessary wood left over after hewing out the perfect tool. But like I said above, I think they are still a useful tool, but in a way that is like a wrench in the machine. They are the Schlemiels that inadvertently trip a whole line of marching soldiers, they are like a living plague of bad luck, and if positioned carefully, could provide nudges in an opposite direction to the nudges from the Dysian Aimians. If this theory is true, then the Dysian Aimians are the many eyed, many limbed, fortune bestowing tools on the ground that Cultivation uses to prune and monitor her organic plans. And further they are working to actively undermine Odium's plan at the same time.

Your verbosity level is locked my friend, and it is set to "indubitably awesome."

@RShara I saw this WoB, and I think this refers more to the superset of sapient cosmere species. One of the traits that is common to all higher lifeforms (with the possible exception of the Dysian Aimians) is the ability to interbreed. The WoB is paraphrased, but as it's written it seems to be saying that there is, like in object oriented program, a superclass> sapient being, that the sub class derived from this superclass inherits the ability to breed with any member of this superclass. This seems like a base parameter that was set up by Adonalsium for how the cosmere works, but within this framework I think the shards were able to create according to this template (like the humans on Scadrial) or separate from this template (I really do think the Dysians are an outlier, whether they were willfully created or are another instance of coalesced investiture acquiring sapience through mere concentration of investiture remains to be seen). I'm excited to see Brandon's answer to my Aimian question when my personalized books come in.

It seems to me that when Szeth attacked The Blackthorn, and Dalinar was looking like the next kill, he turned it around with the Last Catch manover, and then Kaladin took the fight outside, showed Szeth he was a Surgebinder, inadvertently, thus disproving the people who branded Szeth Truthless in the first place (!!!) ... and Kaladin healed a shard wound, and beat Szeth in the battle over the Highstorm. It seems to me that Szeth got several object lessons in the true nature of the world in that encounter, and more truth than from any of his previous associates, except, perhaps, his babsk. And he is actually worried about the mindset of his master. I think the encounter with Dalinar & Kaladin was a serious eye opener for Szeth who then was reborn without losing his memories! So, makes good sense to me.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine This WoB came from the BYU signing a few weeks ago. How do you think it impacts your theory? It seems to imply that Adonalsium created the parsh, the Aimians and the humans.

"It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy." "I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding... fit into this paradigm." The first quote is from an epigraph, the second is found in the Ars Arcanum. Taken together, they paint a pretty strange picture. On the one hand, Odium breaks the Rule of Ten. On the other hand, he... doesn't. Frankly, I am not at all convinced that nine is the correct number for Odium's creations. It would certainly be unprecedented that two Shards hailing from the same planet would have magic systems featuring different magic numbers. Which, of course, brings me to my theory. I believe the "Sibling," the enigmatic third Bondsmith spren to be the tenth Unmade, a spren from Odium. It's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me. Firstly, I'm operating under the assumption (since I couldn't find a direct confirmation of it) that the Nightwatcher is Bondsmithable Number 2. The Sibling, then, rounds a set out twice. First, the three Bondsmith spren now hail one from each Shard (Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and now Sibling). The claim that Odium has a role in in surgebinding (while he still has Voidbinding of his own) may sound unlikely, but we already have precedent with Glys. Besides, if not one of the Unmade, what other spren even comes close to the power level of a Shard's cognitive shadow? Certainly nothing we have yet discovered. Secondly, as I alluded to at the beginning of all of this, I believe it makes far too much sense to ignore that the Unmade would initially tally to ten. Again, at first glance, it may sound strange to claim that a spren created directly by Odium would abandon him, but the precedent is already in place with Sja-Anat. If this theory has already been spun out, I apologize, and could you please point me to the original? If not, what do you guys think of it?

@Robinski Ah, well *scratches head* that last submission was only a third of the chapter...chapter one will be about 8,000 words I think, so if I can average 1k words per day I'll manage to submit...chapter...1...of the novel I've spent a frightening amount of time working on. *Majestic Fox desperately clings to the little scrap of momentum he's accumulated, his dog eared, weather worn scarf flapping in the wind.*

Shadows For Silence

Moved to Oathbringer Forum and added [OB] spoiler tag

Report your own post and ask a mod to move it in the comments. Kinda awkward, I know.

This really needs to be moved into Cosmere theories with an OB spoiler tag

Hate, love, passion/ extremes that burn in the heart/ they bring out people's truths/ people out bring their hearts/ in them burn those extremes/ passions, love, hate

The entire system was created by Adonalsium. Edit: @(^_^) I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry, I'm not sure why number theory gets under my skin so much. It's a personal pet peeve and I didn't mean to come across as to aggressive. If I did. I just believe that like the Foci, numbers are a production of the planet and not the Shard, primarily because if numbers were attributed to the Shard directly, then there should be one for every shard. We see 10 associated with Honor, 9 with Odium, and those are the only ones that appear clear cut. 16 is relevant on Scadrial, but due to which shard? And what is the number of the other? This is an older, paraphrased WoB, but I still personally think it's correct. So, I've vented my pet peeve. Sorry for directing that at you. Hopefully the explanation makes sense.

Thanks for the reminder!

It’s so hard to pick my favorite moment from The Stormlight Archive but it’s probably when Kaladin fought Szeth.

Or would they just be a pyromaniac with a pet fireball.

I like sheep. And other animals. So your profile pic is neat.

When you convert your first victim to Sandorsonism, and it’s the best part of your year.

Definitely agree with this. Accepting Szeth has joined their side is a stretch, but appointing him to be Dalinar's bodyguard just makes no sense. He spent the first two books trying to kill Dalinar when he wasn't busy assassinating other world leaders. The only reason he stopped was because Kaladin seemingly killed him, and nothing happened in between that and Szeth joining up (from Dalinar & Co's perspective) to think anything has changed.

Bort the Brute rolled out of his bedroll, groaning. He didn't feel well, at all. He tried to get up, but found he was too dizzy to stand properly, even leaning on his favorite spiky club. He sat back down on his bedroll, shivering. There had been talk about disease spreading in the camp, but nothing like this. He hollered for a soldier to come. "Stay back," Bort cautioned. "What is it, sir?" one of them asked. "I've caught something. I feel bloody horrible. Tell the othe--" Bort was interrupted as he had to lean over to throw up. The soldier ran to go call for help. "I don't like this. What if Captain Bort was poisoned?" Jeo speculated. "Hm, that actually makes a lot of sense," Ivy said, nodding. "Well... If our captain was poisoned, who'd want to kill him? Maybe somebody who Bort discredited?" "So... Salthis," Zaffer concluded. The four stared at Salthis. The other soldiers seemed to be nodding their heads, and the marshal wasn't in sight to stop them. "Did you poison Bort?" they asked him. Salthis tried to respond, but was pushed to the ground, where they started kicking him. He didn't get back up. Later that night, the camp held a burial service. They dug a mass-grave close to but not over the perimeter imposed by the lifeless, depositing all of those who had died in the past few days. The soldiers stood in a loose ring, their heads bowed, while the marshal said a few words, ending on "...and may Austre give them rest." They kept their heads bowed, as one by one, the members of the camp approached the grave to say their respects, each uttering a few words of respect over the dead. When they looked up, it was obvious that something was very wrong. At some point while paying their respects, heads bowed, eyes closed, all the color had drained from the bodies of the fallen. A quiet moment of dread permeated the camp as comprehension dawned on them. Bort began to pick himself up, quickly followed by others. The ring around the grave scattered, fleeing for the town hall. They barricaded themselves in, breathing heavily, praying that the lifeless would not be able to enter. "It was you," Zaffer said in a quiet voice, looking at Shu. "I saw you do it. You created those creatures from our dead, just now." The others in the hall glanced between the two of them, stunned. Vote Tally Coop (4)- Joe, Brightness, Devotary, Drought Drought (2)- Shqueeves, Coop Arinian (1)- Ecthelion Brightness (1)- Monster Joe (1)- Ripple Ecthelion (1)- Arinian Coop has been lynched! Identity of the deceased: Bort has died of plague! Identity of the deceased: Player List 1. A Joe in the Bush as Jeo the Yellow 2. Elenion as Gormund Oscarson Idrian 3. Randuir as commander Jaaver Idrian Captain 4. Livinglegend as Lucky Idrian Sentry 5. Shqueeves as Shu 6. Bort as Bort the Brute Idrian Captain 7. BrightnessRadiant as Ivy 8. Straw as Straw Idrian 9. TheMightyLopen as Vaati Idrian 10. MacThorstenson as Mac Idrian 11. Devotary of Spontaneity as Fahmexa 12. Ecthelion as Eärendil 13. Coop772 as Salthis Idrian 14. MonsterMetroid as Roid 15. Droughtbringer as Zaffer 16. RippleGylf as Sarcoline 17. Arinian as Elien Rollover

I really like Dalinar and Navani's chemistry, especially when he was trying to be proper and she was trying anything but. On non-romantic......Lightsong and Llarimar.

I have a friend reading shadows of self, and whenever he asks me BoM questions I reply “RAFO” with a sly smile. I also read WoK and WoR in 4 days. I only stopped to eat and go to the bathroom. I’m a horrible person.

My theory is that Trell (and does he have a brother named Nalt?) becomes a worldhopper and goes to Scadrial and founds the Trelagism religion. Autonomy co-opts this religion in Era 2 and turns it into Trellism. She might have been watching the whole time, and followed the guy to Scadrial in the first place, and that's why she chose to use that religion.

Edit: while the nature of my argument stays the same, I would like you to view this Instead from Elhokar not having earned his Redemption Instead of not deserving it. My original choice of words was poor. Before I start, I want to preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that I'm not trying to put down anyone's opinion or anything similar to that nature. If you disagree and enjoy Elhokar as a character and didn't like his arc, I definitely respect that, and look forward to some spirited debate. I just have some thoughts that have been floating around I wanted to put out there and my objective reasons for those feelings. Without further pre-amble, here goes: I think that Elhokar's arc was the perfect ending to a character with very few redeeming qualities, and that Elhokar was not deserving of the redemption arc he was headed towards. I'm going to organize my thoughts by first going over Elhokar's flaws before OB, briefly discussing the path he was taking to Radiance and especially how a bond with the cryptics relates to his past, and finally how that combination, for me personally, makes the character not deserving of full redemption, and why his death was very satisfying for me. I. Elhokars Past Flaws Elhokar's fatal sin is that of Vanity, as Hoid points out earlier in this scene. In his defense, he's grown up with incredibly large expectations thrust upon him. His mother is a renowned artifabrian, his father is the greatest monarch since the Sunmaker, his uncle is the greatest general alive, his cousin is one of the most skilled duelists, his sister is a world renowned scholar. Elhokar is...unimpressive. There is nothing innately wrong with being unimpressive. The world thrives on people who understand their place in it and are driven to fulfill that duty well. This is Vorin doctrine through elevation of callings. This was not good enough for Elhokar though, he was not satisfied with taking his calling of leading Alethkar and fulfilling that duty to the best of his ability, he had to be recognized as significant. His goal wasn't to do good, but to be recognized for doing good. It's a common theme for Elhokar. He puts the cart before the horse, recognizing the destination but ignoring the significance of the journey. This is apparent at his father's funeral. There are several criticisms I have for this. First off, what does he want for vengeance? The leaders of the Parshendi confessed and we're executed, justice was served. What objective is he trying to meet? Genocide? No, he reveals what he's truly after in the speech, public support. He wasn't satisfied with them swearing to him privately, he needed an excuse to demand the Highprinces swear to him, then a justification to try to match his father's conquest by invading the Shattered Plains. That he provides no objectives or direction as the war wages is further proof. He married Aesudan against Jasnah's advice because he wants her strength to help his reputation, not because of love or because it will help his house. Fast forward a few years to where we catch up to him. On the Shattered Plains, he invents a assassination attempt because he's worried his uncle wants to kill him. This stems, Imo, from his frustration at Dalinar for stepping in so often to fix Elhokar's mistakes. When Elhokar is worried about Dalinar courting Navani, it's not because he's worried about his mother or his uncle, but because of how it could reflect on him. He seeks out Kaladin for his help because he's jealous of how Kaladin is seen as a hero, not because he wants to fulfill his duty better. I'm sure there's other examples, but essentially, it's all summed up by what the Stormfather said: II. Path to Radiance/Cryptics The most tragic part of Elhokar's death is it comes just as he achieves the first ideal and overcomes those flaws, cut down just as he starts his path to redemption, but what led him there? I'm going to lightly touch on the first ideal, because I know it's a contentious topic, but I think it's central to the topic. From my interpretation, at it's core, the first ideal is an oath to use your strength in service to others. This is something that Elhokar has never done up to this point. His actions were always couched in attempting to make himself look better. By being able to swear the first oath, he overcame that, and was starting on the path to use his position in service to his kingdom. For the cryptics, we know that they are attracted to lies. And we also know that they need truth to progress. We know that they have been following Elhokar since WoK So, it's pretty easy to speculate that the Cryptics we're attracted by the lies that Elhokar told himself about his motives, that his attempts to increase his respect and reputation disguised by his lies brought him to their attention. Likewise, his transition to sincerely wish to use his power in service, and his ability to finally see himself for his own flaws and understand his own motives allowed him to reach across and bond him. That brings us to: III. No Redemption So why doesn't he deserve redemption? He's made the transition, his motives have improved, he's finally understood what truly is required of him by his station. Why won't I cut him some slack? Well, I don't think he would have been irredeemable had the narrative gone another way, but as written in OB, he definitely was. I actually was looking forward to his redemption end of WoR. However, the behavior demonstrated in the first point continued throughout the OB. He has made great strides in self awareness, but his still has a huge blindspot: Aesudan. This is in spite of all evidence pointing to her being the cause of the trouble and along with Jasnah's warning. He still has trouble admitting it with her in front of his eyes, the city in ruins, his child unwell in his arms. It's not until Kaladin reminds him of what's truly at stake, his son, that Elhokar finally admits Aesudan is beyond help and leaves. Even then, it takes some of Shallan's transformation magic to fully complete the transformation. So let's wrap this all together. Elhokar's past mistakes are beyond egregious. I didn't even touch on Moash's grandparents and their unjust death at his command. His path to Radiance required him to become self aware of his faults and take up his station in service to others, but the reason I feel he didn't deserve redemption was because of when it truly came. It wasn't until his throne was usurped by his uncle, his kingdom had been invaded, his palace shrouded by darkness, his wife consumed by an unmade, his capital fallen to the enemy, his mission to save the city failing, he was pushed along by Lightweaving magic and that he was his son's last line of defense that he finally was able to push past his previous lies and selfishness and achieve Radiance. For me, the cost is far too high for his redemption. I do think he could have been written in this book to have been redeemed, but, personally, the way the story played out, this was the only resolution, and it was a fitting one.

Taking a page out of Chaos's book... Oathbringer: REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED

Morning all. EVeryone feeling good about being in the most active, ambitious and wonderful thread on the forums? I hope so So I agree that the "triangle" is finished given that there is a year time-gap planned between end of OB and beginning of book 4. That being said, I think there are a reasonable reasons for thinking that the marriage between Adolin and Shallan is going to be less than happy. I mean for one thing, it is massively rushed. A second thing is that Adolin is treating Veil as a drinking buddy. I don't know about you but when I've been out with my SO, he isn't suddenly my drinking buddy, he remains my SO even if we are playing drinking games. My relationship with him doesn't shift according to what I am doing or the mood I am in - it has shifted over time according to our level of attachment, but not on a moment by moment basis. I do agree that Kaladin has dodged a bullet for now. Unfortunately Adolin is about to take it instead. And I'm not sure if he'll survive the encounter. Note, even if he becomes an Edgedancer proper, we haven't seen a Radiant die yet. That is worrying on all sorts of levels. @Greywatch I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it. Actually I agree with you completely here. Not sure how I made myself unclear and I apologise for doing so. Dissociation, almost by definition, is a coping mechanism. Various forms of it are normal as long as they don't become prolonged or occur too frequently. Some occur as part of other neurological phenomena such as migraines or epilepsy. Other occur after trauma (flashbacks in PTSD are a form of dissociation for example). She isn't ready to let go of them, but then, people with DID aren't either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be helped to try - continuing down this route could very well leave her in a completely dysfunctional state. Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here. I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing. Quick point, but generally progression into DID or OSDD is actually quite quick IRL. It is often the result of a specific traumatic trigger. There usually have been some dissociating behaviours present prior to division of the core personality. Shallan fits this pattern (Pattern?) as she has blackouts and periods of depersonalisation (going "cold") before we see full personality dissociation in OB. I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. The more I have read about DID and OSDD the more I realised that she has some very "textbook" elements to her situation. 'Dating' - you are absolutely right. But they aren't dating. They are married. Now obviously there are some personal takes on this and anyway we are modern RL people and the characters are Medieval-esque and fictional so their social norms and mores are going to be radically different. On top of that both would have grown up expecting an arranged marriage which does not seem to be the norm for people in this thread (if there is anyone here with either the experience of an arranged marriage or the expectation of one I;d love to get their insight). I guess my problem is that their relationship is still so ..... young and immature - I don't mean the characters (although that is also true imo) but that they are still trying to understand some basic core ideas of each other's personalities. Everyone has to start at that point, but most of us aren't getting married while still in that stage. Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. I don't agree that Adolin's version isn't idealised, but then I suppose that's obvious I feel that Adolin has a clear image of Shallan in his head but that it is the one Shallan put there. Shallan herself in WoR says that her relationship with Adolin is like the one she has with Mraize and that she has to go beyond expectations etc. Adolin may have got a perfectly good idea of what that Shallan looks like, but it doesn't mean he's got her as a whole. I see very little evidence that she has changed her modus operandi when it comes to interacting with Adolin. She still presents the "innocent lively Shallan. Quick with a quip. even when nobody wants to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes overeager." (Chapter 29 OB) to him through most of OB. Even when he sees Veil, he not only separates her from "the real" Shallan, but she strongly feels that the real one is the one I just described. On another note, not sure how much Shallan idealises Kaladin. I mean, he glows and flies... difficult not to I suppose, but I don't remember a specific moment when she clearly thinks about him in a way that doesn't essentially line up with who he is as a person - I'm happy to be corrected. Kaladin though does idealise Shallan a bit though as he tends to see her "light" (like he did with Tien) rather than the darkness behind it. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Shallan doesn't idealise Adolin either - at least I think her own estimations of him line up with mine. Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. I think Adolin's full arc isn't done. We dont have space for everything in one book, and there need to be things that tie the books together. So far, each of our main Mains (Shllan, Dalinar, Kaladin) have taken up a huge amount of page time in each book. Adolin is a major side character, so his arc, by necessessity needs to cross several books. We will not likely see him achieve the same levels as Shallan, Dalinar or Kaladin, in terms of Radianthood (if he gets there) but his arc will continue and be directly linked to the progression he has had as a character from tWoK through all the books. Yes, me too - his is one of the threads that seems the most likely to be picked up going forward and this means we can theorycraft with it as a baseline. I agree with basically eveything in this statement and want to highlight it again for anyone who missed it. *shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind Storms, Shallan as a mother? Hasn't Gavinor suffered enough??! I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended. This has been confirmed by WoB: TGANCHERO How many oaths can a Radiant swear? BRANDON SANDERSON There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. see http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=shallan+threshold I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal. I think is clear you and I are on the same page regarding this so other than to suggest others read your post I won't go into massive detail extolling it's virtues That said, I just want to clarify your last point. Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand". I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one. I don't know, I just love the way they hate each other. Its so entertaining. Anyone else like the scene where they fight before he lets her in to see Dalinar for the first time? Kaladin is one of the few people she's met that she hasn't been able to instantly charm. She also touches him for a very long time in that segment given that they are essentially strangers, of vastly different social backgrounds, having a fight , and surrounded by people. I know she is touchy-feely as a person, but during a fairly venomous argument? I am not sure I buy it

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