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Accept the actual canon as truth? What is this ridiculousity? Obviously you are expressing a totally valid viewpoint here (and thank-you for sharing it!). For me, the fact that Brandon has chosen a different route doesn't take away the fun of theorizing the paths not traveled, even as I enjoy the canon path. I have bolded a few points for the purpose of discussion. To be clear, I do not think there is anything wrong or incorrect about the statements, they just piqued my interest and I wanted to make the following observations: (1) Sufficient Expression of Attraction - The only thing I would add to this point is that, if he is not aware of his attraction, the attraction may be subliminal rather than explicit. Some of the passages quoted above show an appreciation of Kaladin that some are arguing implies an attraction that Adolin himself might not be aware of. If he were not aware of his same-sex attraction, then the expressions would not be explicit. (2) Feelings of Unworthiness - What if the feelings of unworthiness you identified are a reason for Adolin not to examine his sexuality? He feels unworthy, and wants to live up to his father's legacy. Many if not all of his role models are straight. Regardless of whether or not people would look down on him for being same-sex attracted, his feelings of not being worthy might make him hesitant to even examine himself in depth, preferring to focus on who he wants to be/become. (3) Stereotypes - I am of two minds on the stereotypes thing. On one hand, it is frustrating when characters from minority groups are conglomerations of stereotypes and do not feel like true individuals. On the other hand, as many (but not all) stereotypes are based in truth, portraying a gay character who is 100% not stereotypically gay also seems problematic to me. Stereotypes can be used to make harmful generalizations, but commonly held interests are part of what forms community for minority groups. I think Adolin is a wonderfully imagined three dimensional character, and so I see him being stereotypically interested in fashion (if he were gay) as realistic and relateable, rather than problematic. His interest in fashion does not define him, but as I wrote above, I think it does comment on his hyper awareness of how others perceive him, whatever the root cause. I am perhaps a little too attached to this line of reasoning, mostly because I relate to Adolin on many levels, and this is similar to my own coming out journey. I have always known, for example, that my family and friends were accepting of same-sex attracted people, and yet, I did not realize I was gay until I started meeting and spending time with other same-sex attracted people. Before that, I thought "Do I like guys? Nope!" and proceeded to date women, thinking that was the end of the matter. However, when I started spending time with other gay men, I started to realize how much I had in common with them, and it was only then that I was able to examine my sexuality on a deeper level, and come to the realization that I was, in fact, gay. So, that is a long (and potentially over-sharing) way of saying I 100% agree with this. Even if Adolin knows he would be accepted if he came out as same sex attracted, that does not mean he is aware of his own attraction to men. He may be attached--as I, in hindsight, was--to the image of a certain future involving a female partner, and likely does not have any same sex attracted friends or role-models to compare himself to. The issue could also be one of concentration. Most of our viewpoint characters are straight, and it is not clear that Shallan is aware she is Bi (I am guessing not since Brandon didn't even know). The general statistic I have heard thrown around in our world is 10% of the population or so is same-sex attracted (if I'm wrong on that, I do not think it is detrimental to my point, but feel free to correct me). If I think of my own friends, however, I would say close to 50-60% of people I regularly associate with are same sex attracted. In my workplace (which I estimate employs 80-100 people), to my knowledge I am the only gay person. The purpose of these examples is to demonstrate that the distribution of minority groups (especially invisible ones like sexual minorities) is not uniform. Like attracts like, and you will often find minority groups existing in pockets. So, if Drehy, as an out gay man, for example, was a viewpoint character, I would guess we would see a lot more same sex attracted Alethi (surely Dru wasn't the only other person, or the two of them finding each other would be rather implausible). The other issue is that there may be other characters we have seen who are same sex attracted, but their preference has not become relevant to the story yet (as was the case of Drehy prior to OB). All of this is just to say I think it is too soon to rule out that the Rosharan incidence of same sex attraction is similar to Earth's.

Snow flurried about the camp. On its outskirts, Marshall Amaranth Incarnadine studied the scout, mulling over the implications of what he had just heard. "And you are sure of this?" "Absolutely, sir." "Very well then," he sighed. "...follow me." Incarnadine approached the center of the camp, what might have once been a town hall of sorts before the Manywar spread across this region. Seated around the embers of a dying fire, a small group of soldiers played dice and swapping bits and bobs. Incarnadine looked to the scout. "Go ahead and tell them what you just told me." The scout began, "these ruins are the only thing that even approximate shelter anywhere nearby. And somebody must be controlling the band of lifeless we spotted a few days back, given their movements." "And your point?" one of the soldiers asked, looking up from their dice. "It means the one who is directing those lifeless is in our midst right now." Sorry I'm late. I'm a little new to the whole GM thing and I may have failed to anticipate everything that needed to be done prior to hitting the post button on this. If people ask for it, I could extend this cycle to make up for the lost time. You will receive a GM PM soon if you have not already. All of you now have PMs. Also, note that this is the only cycle in the game during which you can safely not cast a vote. Player List 1. A Joe in the Bush 2. Elenion 3. Randuir 4. Livinglegend 5. Shqueeves 6. Bort 7. BrightnessRadiant 8. Straw 9. TheMightyLopen 10. MacThorstenson 11. Devotary of Spontaneity 12. Ecthelion 13. Coop772 14. MonsterMetroid 15. Droughtbringer 16. RippleGylf 17. Arinian Rollover

So I thought it might be helpful if I jumped in here with my two cents, as sort of a bridge between the two camps. I've been a member of the forums since WoR, but due to a lot of craziness in my life (medical problems with family members, work-related issues, etc) I've also had extended absences from the forums. As such, I both have the feeling of being in with some of the older crowd as well as not meshing in completely since I don't participate in the discord, and don't participate heavily in a lot of areas of the forums. Regarding moderators: I wanted to weigh in to provide some benefit of the doubt for Chaos in regard to the public/private rebuke on the rules. While I feel like there's been a couple of times when there could have been moderation taken in conversations I've been involved in, I've only been addressed by moderators once, and it was in a public setting by Choas, and he did so in response to my having reported a post someone else made. Personally, I feel like this speaks highly of his ability to be unbiased and take in a whole situation. As a member who has multiple years of participation, albeit, with long absences, under my belt, and quite a hefty reputation rank, he had absolutely no reservations in, deservedly, calling out my behavior that was not de-escalating the situation. He was also very instructive and provided specific examples of said behavior to me when I privately messaged him afterward asking for how I could improve my behavior. This is consistent both with his statements on being completely transparent and his follow through in this thread. My own personal philosophy is that being directly open and honest about when you feel the discussion is starting to turn south, and confronting those feelings, is the best way to resolve it, without having to involve the moderators. As @Alderant noted, we have had great success with this together and formed a bond overcoming that tension on the forums. I know that I'm not perfect about this myself, but I'd personally much rather someone address me directly and tell me that I need to stop being a wool-headed sheepherder, and I'll do my best to remove myself from my emotions and take better stock of the situation. From my own experiences, the 17th Shard as a whole has been absolutely wonderful about this. Which leads me to the next thing I want to address regarding the things said about the arcanists and @Calderis especially. I can understand the perspective being stated here, about feeling like you've been targeted or dogpiled on for having a dissenting opinion on a post, as I've felt the same way at times. However, Calderis has been unfailing, in my experiences, to either own up to any actions that could be perceived that way, or apologize for any comments that come across that way when directly confronted about it. I can think of several different specific occasions where I have directly stated that I was feeling a negative connotation from a response to a thread, and he apologized for it and made clear it was not his intention. I have a lot of respect for him, not just because of the wealth of knowledge he has, but because he has always proven to be willing to discuss in good faith. Granted, I did not participate in any way in the ASK thread, however, I thought that maybe it might be helpful for some of you who I have not had extended interactions with to know that I've had some similar experiences, or that someone with a high rep and longer time invested in the site has had the "public shaming" option instead of the private message moderation. Regarding the reputation system, I was very happy to see the downvote system disappear, but I will be just as unhappy to see the upvote system disappear. While I can see the merit behind the arguments for not utilizing it anymore, it has always been a fun way for me to engage with other sharders, and vice versa. I'm not sure what the solutions are to this problem, or to the complaints against moderation in general, but I think that we, as general members, should also be looking at ways in which we can take ownership of the situation and find a middle ground that allows us to better facilitate communication with each other. Several months ago I decided to use my "about me" section to convey information about my personal style of debate and to reiterate that should any tension arise between myself and another member of the forum, that I will do whatever it takes to try to solve that situation if you bring it to my attention. Confrontation isn't easy, but I also think that putting the burden of this problem completely on the moderators, and then criticising them for not having an easy solution, is not the best path that we can take. The feelings I've seen presented are most certainly valid, please don't in any way think that I'm trying to make it seem as though I'm dismissing them, whether it's that you feel the mods are biased, or anything else I've read here. That's not my intention with this post. I don't have your experiences, and I would never try to dismiss them because my own experiences have been different. Rather, I thought it might be helpful to use my own experiences on the forum to provide a larger background picture for those who might be feeling this way. My feelings, of course, are my own, but I hope that we can find a way to figure this out that doesn't restrict people who obviously share our own love of Sanderson from participating in the forums themselves. I personally don't think it would be fair to expect them to put aside posting on the forums because they are trying to keep it a nice place for everyone. Essentially, I want to ask the same thing that is being asked of them, assume good intentions on their part, just as we want them to assume that both new and older members of the forums have good intentions themselves.

Hi maxal, which WoB do you mean? The one regarding him tending to unconsciously self sabotage himself in relationships? If so, doesn't the fact that it is subconscious rather undermine you point about him feeling unworthy? The canon (ie the book not the WoBs) supports both the read of homosexuality and the absence of it because Adolin has not specifically confronted this idea and either confirmed or refuted it. Thus it is surely open to interpretation? I happen to agree that Adolin probably isn't meant to be gay, the point is that the canon actually allows him to be, We are not arguing this over Kaladin because everyone here seems to feel that there are no Kal thoughts that trend towards attraction to Adolin (or any other man for that matter) which is a strong contrast to how we see Adolin think where we see him more poetic about Kaladin even than Shallan. It opens up the possibility and thus the discussion. Edit: for clarity this is the WoB I am talking about: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4892

As OB finally sinks in, I keep remembered choice passages. I am sorry if someone already meme'd these! Oh Jasnah... I really do like your character. It's rather entertaining with you around. And come on Mr. T... Did you have to? I mean that Diagram has been off enough times that in research, this is normally when you scrap everything and do a literature search again. Too bad Google Scholar doesn't have Cosmere. I checked.

Hidy ho all, First of all, yes this is still a thing. It hasn't gone away, yet. Which is why I'm posting this here. If your in America, or know someone who is, either go yourself or get them to go to battleforthenet. They have a form letter, that you can sign, which will send to your senator/congressman. Sadly, we are still fighting for our rights on the internet. And we need help from folks like you, your parents, your siblings, your next door neighbors, that creepy guy at the end of the block, your second cousins twice removed, ect. The above site, will give you a phone number to call, which will connect you with your reps. You can then ask them to fight for a free and open internet. Here's the latest email I have from battle for the net:

Hi everyone. I wanted to share a bit of fan art with you. Enjoy!

I theorize each Shard has its own “pathway to power.” This pathway is the conduit down which a Shard’s Spiritual Realm power enters the other Realms. Each pathway is a unique medium for the transmission of magical energy between the Realms. Metal, spren, water, and electromagnetic radiation (EMR) are examples. The idea and term “pathway to power” comes from Marasi’s POV in this Bands of Mourning passage (Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359, emphasis added): Here’s how I think pathways work in my magic systems model: 1. A magic user consumes a “catalyst” to start the magic (burns metal, infuses Stormlight, dehydrates, drains “color,” etc.) 2. The catalyst activates each Shard’s pathway to Spiritual Realm power. 3. The Spiritual Realm releases power down the pathway. 4. Each magic system’s Focus shapes the pathway to choose which power is released. 5. The Focused power Invests the magic user. 6. The magic user directs the Invested power for some magical effect. Brandon says, “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do [emphasis added].” Elsewhere he says, @Jofwu calls the “unchanging/unchangeable” aspect of a Shard its “nature.” Because power isn’t “related to the Shards,” I believe a Shard’s pathway solely causes its nature. Each pathway transmits power differently. Ruin could use the same powers as Preservation; but Ruin’s increased net entropy pathway (“decay”) directly opposes metal’s crystalline molecular pathway (“stasis”). It’s “more natural” for Ruin to steal Allomantic powers by increasing net entropy (spiking). Jofwu calls a Shard’s changeable aspect “the Vessel’s expression of the Shard.” I think the Vessel’s expression embodies Brandon’s axiom that perception guides the use of power. IMO, a Vessel’s expression decides “the WAY the magic is obtained,” “the means of getting powers”: “Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting.” Ruin, for example, could give magic users power in ways other than spiking to express entropy. Brandon may have “flavored” pathways and expressions to correlate with Adonalsium life stages, a Jordan-esque “Wheel of Life.” I’m going to try to weave each Shard into a matrix of expressions, pathways, energy transmission mechanics (each pathways’ “science”), life stages, and narrative. I list the Shards in order of their “life stage.” Lots of speculation here. Enjoy the ride! Fortune [SPECULATION] Expression: Grants Foresight Pathway: Space-Time Continuum Mechanic: Special and General Relativity Life Stage: Conception Narrative: Adonalsium conceives the Physical Realm as a space-time continuum We don’t know whether “Fortune” is a Shard, but it’s a good candidate as hinted by its name. Here’s some speculation: Space-Time in the Cosmere Fortune tells Hoid (the most accomplished seer, says Azure) where and when he needs to be, but not why. It sounds like Hoid taps into the cosmere’s space-time continuum. Brandon believes in probabilistic time: “Possibilities upon possibilities, compounded upon one another. Infinite, overwhelming. The future.” (M:SH, Part Three, Chapter 3, Kindle Locs. 1055-1056.) Since our physics and the cosmere’s are the same except for Investiture, I think space-time constitutes the Physical Realm’s fabric, the substance that permeates the Physical Realm. Except possibly for Cognitive Realm splinters, Adonalsium’s mind and soul are alone until he creates the Physical Realm. IMO, conceiving space-time must precede the Physical Realm because the Physical Realm begins linear time, something unknown in the Spiritual Realm: “Time…had no relevance here. It was not a place. Location had no relevance. Only Connection…” (M:SH, Part Three, Chapter 3, Kindle Locs. 1031-1032.) IOW, space-time doesn’t exist in the Spiritual Realm except as a Connection between a soul and its place and time. How Fortune Works? Surprised by the Diagram’s accuracy, Odium tells Taravangian, “You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm?” (OB, Chapter 122, Kindle p. 1215, emphasis added.) This suggests accessing Fortune is an alternate means of seeing the future, different from looking directly into the Spiritual Realm like Kelsier does in M:SH. Fortune seems to avoid the “mind-breaking” Preservation warns Kelsier about. I think Riino’s globe (the “Rii Oracle”) is an example of an “interaction with nature” magic system. “Invested” mortals like Kaladin can interact with Fortune, but they can’t direct its magic. The Oracle seems filled with Fortune’s Investiture (a “milky light” that changes colors, unlike the Ire’s “blue-white light.” (M:SH, Part 5, Chapter 2, Kindle Loc. 1356.) Touching the Oracle IMO Connects Kaladin to space-time. Through that Connection, Kaladin sees Dalinar’s future confrontation with Odium in Thaylen City. Riino later places his bartered Stormlight in “some kind of globe.” (OB, Chapter 99, Kindle p. 926.) If this “globe” is the Oracle, it’s possible Riino needs to replace Stormlight Kaladin consumes to Connect to Fortune. This makes thermodynamic sense, because you need energy to access the Spiritual Realm, even “at the beginning of the highstorm…when realms blend.” (OB, Chapter 97, Kindle pp. 910, 911.) IOW, Kaladin may have accessed Fortune by consuming a Stormlight catalyst the Oracle holds to fuel his Connection to the Spiritual Realm. The Oracle’s magic to me resembles Aviar as much as atium. Aviar warn their bonded mortals about imminent danger. The Oracle sees farther than Aviar or atium, as we might expect from Fortune. Like Aviar, the Oracle creates a Cognitive Connection with Kaladin – the Investiture seems to know he’d want to see Dalinar’s dilemma. Other Thoughts It’s unclear whether Fortune has its own Shardworld. It may be the “Shard that isn’t on a planet,” appropriate for the Shard whose pathway is space-time. Maybe black holes are Fortune’s perpendicularities? I’m curious if we’ll find mortals who can direct Fortune’s magic along its space-time pathway – starship navigators like Dune’s Guild? Fortune may make FTL space travel possible, through black holes or as a navigation guide. FWIW, Feruchemical “Fortune” and the Shard Fortune (if there is one) may not be 100% the same thing: “when they use the word ‘fortune,’ do they mean exactly what the Feruchemical – and the answer is no. But it is a very similar concept.” Endowment Expression: Grants Life Pathway: Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR) Mechanic: Quantum Mechanics Life Stage: Birth Narrative: Adonalsium creates the cosmere: “Let there be light.” Quantum mechanics describes the behavior of matter and energy at the level of atoms and subatomic particles. Photons are a quantum of light. Breaths are essentially a quantum of Investiture. Quantum mechanics metaphorically fits the “Let there be light” moment, as does Endowment’s EMR pathway. Brandon says Endowment wants to start a cosmere market for magic. She creates Breaths by, IMO, adding life to photons, the “bio” in “biochroma.” Each Breath grants more life (the Heightenings). Even non-Nalthians can hold Breaths. This portability, Breath scarcity (related to the number of native Nalthians), and the fact Breaths as quanta are Investiture’s smallest usable “unit,” make Breaths the ideal currency for Endowment’s magic market. I believe that’s why Endowment chose Nalthis to reside on. I characterize Endowment as an “angel investor.” Her investment (uncoincidentally IMO) gives birth to the magic market. Endowment “endowed” Nalthis with a nest egg that, “Invested” wisely, could generate wealth for millennia. Her name shows how she interprets her pathway. Her social endowment includes the Returned, the prophetic avatars of her divine ideals. Devotion Expression: Sustains Life Pathway: Sub-Surface Ground Mechanic: Geothermal Energy Life Stage: Newborn Narrative: Adonalsium creates planets AonDor seems particularly location-dependent even for Sel. To me, Elantris resembles a newborn who fully depends on its mother. Aon Rao infuses Elantris and Elantrians with the Dor (like mother’s milk). Once the Shaod takes them, Elantrians don’t need any other form of sustenance – Devotion “nurtures” them eternally. The broken chasm line deprives Elantrians of their ability to heal and draw Aons, but they remain immortal. Elantrians lose Aon Rao’s power amplification as they distance themselves from Elantris (and their mother’s Spirit). I associate planet formation with Devotion. After its sun, a planet’s secondary energy source is geothermal energy, left in a planet’s mantle and core when formed. (The warmth of a mother’s love?) Geothermal convection at a planet’s core causes tectonic plate movement on a planet’s surface, like what happened with the chasm. I believe Devotion and Dominion chose Sel because their pathways and mechanics suit a world that (IMO) holds Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture in its ground. Honor Expression: Makes Cognitive Connections Pathway: Neural Synapses Mechanic: Synaptic Plasticity – affects the strength of synaptic connections Life Stage: Infant Narrative: Adonalsium begins to Connect his creations into Spiritwebs Infants start to explore and Connect to the people and things in their world. Neural synapses are how the brain makes Connections. Synapses are the gaps between neurons across which the neurons electrically communicate. IMO, synapses are Honor’s pathway. “Synaptic plasticity” refers to the ability of synapses to strengthen or weaken over time in response to synaptic activity levels. Perceived Connections between people, planet and things, reinforced with use, strengthen synaptic connections. Spren enter the Physical Realm through a Cognitive bond with their host. I believe Roshar’s spren bonds attracted Honor to Roshar. Surgebinders get Honor’s magic from the Nahel bond, a form of Cognitive Connection. IMO, oaths reinforce the Connection by strengthening the synapses in the KR’s brain hooking him to his ideals (the Radiant spren). Broken oaths end the synaptic Connection, leaving a mindless spren that’s missing “a piece of [its] soul.” Dominion Expression: Sets Rules Pathway: Ground Surface Mechanic: Gravitational Potential Energy Life Stage: Toddler Narrative: Adonalsium creates the cosmere’s “unifying laws” Dominion’s form-based “programming” gives access to the Dor. IMO, these forms are 2-dimensional representations of local landscape features, an “overlap between language, location, and magic on the planet…” (AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle p. 18.) On Sel, each unique magical population culturally interprets its native landscape. I think these interpretations become Dominion’s forms. My choice of gravitational potential energy for Dominion’s mechanic may seem weird. Potential energy is stored energy that doesn’t do anything until motion turns it into kinetic energy – like a rock that begins to tumble. Gravitational potential energy depends on the relative height of different parts of the landscape. Even minor elevation differences can yield energy. On Sel, “Vast continents and sweeping oceans create a diverse landscape, with an extreme amount of variation on this one planet.” (AU, Kindle p. 17, emphasis added.) Khriss describes “powers that permeate the landscape.” (AU, Kindle p. 17.) I speculate Dominion’s landscape-based access codes unlock Sel’s gravitational potential energy. At least some Selish magic seems activated by motion: Elantrians draw, JinDo dance, and Bloodsealers and Forgers impress essence stamps. Is Forton’s potion stirred? Perhaps this motion converts the potential energy into the kinetic energy that summons the Dor? Other Shardworlds’ magic systems don’t seem to start with motion. Linking gravitational potential energy with the toddler stage seems appropriate. A sedentary infant’s potential energy becomes the mobile toddler’s very kinetic energy as they learn to resist gravity and move. As the toddler’s world expands, authority needs to set boundaries on that energy. Dominion says, “Know your land and take dominion over it before you can extract its magic.” Cultivation Expression: Transforms Pathway: Life Mechanic: Evolution Life Stage: Puberty Narrative: Adonalsium “transforms” the cosmere to create life I leave Cultivation’s “life” pathway vague. If all cosmere life existed only in the Physical Realm, her pathway might be “living cells.” But spren, seons, and skaze are alive too. I believe Cultivation’s life pathway also winds through them. I think Roshar’s spren are the pathway that brings Cultivation’s power to Roshar’s native flora and fauna, the KR, and fabrials. Stormlight activates the spren pathway to manifest the power each spren personifies (fire, wind, gravity, growth, etc.). Khriss says, “this pattern (the bonding of spren to human) is merely an expansion of what already exists in the nature of the planet.” (AU, “The Rosharan System,” Kindle p. 536.) I believe Cultivation causes this “expansion.” IMO, Radiant spren are Adonalsium spren until Cultivation transforms them. Mutation is an evolutionary process. To me, the source of a KR’s power is the Radiant spren, made from some combination of Honor's and Cultivation's Investiture. The Nahel bond’s Cognitive Connection gives the KR the ability to direct the Radiant spren’s power and enjoy power’s benefits (like self-healing). I believe Cultivation also transforms Dalinar, Taravangian, Lift, and Renarin to help them resist Odium. Dalinar recovers his memories in time to assimilate and integrate them before Odium uses those memories to assault him. Cultivation knows Odium will come to Taravangian on his "bad" days, and I suspect Taravangian’s compassion – his Connection to others – will aid him. Cultivation changes Lift so she can metabolize food into Stormlight. Cultivation (IMO) changes both Renarin and Glys so they can bond each other. Renarin's name shows his uniqueness: “Like one who was born unto himself.” (OB, Chapter 52, Kindle p. 515.) Puberty transforms a person and makes them capable of creating life. That seems the natural life stage for Cultivation’s expression and pathway. Autonomy Expression: Grants Self-Sufficiency Pathway: Water Mechanic: Fluid Mechanics Life Stage: Parenthood Narrative: Adonalsium makes a planet with (IMO) its own self-sufficient consciousness Life needs water for self-sufficiency. Like Autonomy, water easily changes form. Autonomy prefers ocean worlds like Taldain and First of the Sun. Fluid mechanics (which includes aerodynamics) seems an appropriate choice for Bavadin, whom I believe is a shape-shifting dragon. Khriss says a Sand Master’s body water forges a temporary bond between him and the sand microflora. (AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle pp. 369-370.) This bond lets the Sand Master draw Investiture from the Spiritual Realm to control the microflora’s growth and, consequently, the sand. IOW, water is the pathway down which the Sand Master pulls power from the Spiritual Realm and pushes it into the microflora. Brandon calls Roshar a “created” world. I think Adonalsium made Roshar last. The closeness of Roshar’s Cognitive and Physical Realms suggests Adonalsium gave Roshar its own self-sufficient consciousness. Roshar may represent Adonalsium’s Planet 2.0, a child planet that will grow itself. Roshar, FWIW, is also an ocean planet. I think the Urithiru basement icon of a figure with arms out-stretched above a blue disk refers to whatever consciousness raised the Rosharan continent from the water. Autonomy later does the same when its avatar raises the Pantheon. I suspect much of Autonomy’s “assigned Investiture” is found on Roshar. Preservation Expression: Maintains Stasis Pathway: Metals Mechanic: Metal Science Life Stage: Middle Age Narrative: Adonalsium is content with the cosmere as is Metals form regular crystal structures and have the lowest entropy of the matter states – closest to stasis. Adonalsium looks at his creation (the cosmere) with middle age’s self-satisfaction. He wants to keep what he has. Odium Expression: Breaks Cognitive Connections Pathway: Neuron Death Mechanic: Nonsynaptic Plasticity – affects neurons’ intrinsic excitability; overexcited neurons can cause cell death Life Stage: Later Age Narrative: Adonalsium ages, loses Connections, and foresees his death As people age, they lose Connection with family and friends. They become less responsive and lose their affect. Perhaps the Fain causes Adonalsium’s slippage – is the Fain a Physical Realm representation of Adonalsium’s Cognitive decline? Does Adonalsium foresee the need for heirs? I believe Odium’s magic users get their power by breaking their Cognitive Connections to other people. That’s my lesson from Odium’s failed attempt to turn Dalinar. Empty of feeling – “Alone…So alone” – Odium’s magic users fill their void with power. “Passion” can break these Connections – hate blinds, as does lust, gluttony, and shame. Though not passion, irresponsibility also breaks Connections – “It’s not my fault…” I think Odium’s pathway is neuron death. One way: high neuron stimulation over time (like from passion) can overexcite and kill neurons (“excitotoxicity”). To regain their power, a returned Fused IMO must lose more neurons to break more Connections. This may explain why many Fused can’t speak and appear imbecilic – they’ve come back so often and suffered too much brain damage. Odium is the Shard murderer. He kills the Vessel’s mind, leaving the Shard’s power undirected. IMO, Odium holds “the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards” because of his neuron death pathway. Ruin Expression: Decay Pathway: Increased Entropy Mechanic: Second Law of Thermodynamics: Entropy Life Stage: Death and Decomposition Narrative: Adonalsium dies and “decomposes” – Shatters into 16 pieces of greater entropy “Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy,” since power is lost in attribute transfers. I think a Hemalurgical victim’s decaying blood and Feruchemical attribute conversion into Investiture are examples of Ruin’s pathway of increased entropy. Hemalurgy uses metal as a Focus, but metal is Preservation’s essence, not Ruin’s. I think Ruin uses metal because it has the lowest entropy. Other choices would lose too much power in transit. To me, it makes thematic sense the Ruin-Preservation war should oppose entropy with the cosmere’s most entropy-resistant substance. Ruin ruined Ati. It decayed his will and personality until he gave in to Ruin’s destructive impulse. In Ati more than any other Vessel, nature and expression merged. Other Shards I omit Ambition because we only know its magic inferentially. I also agree with many posters that Wisdom is a Shard, but again, we don’t know its magic. I can certainly envision Ambition and Wisdom as Adonalsium “life stages.” Ambition falls between “self-sufficiency” and middle age. Wisdom should come between middle age and Cognitive decline (or so I’m told). Other Topics I discuss these topics in the following Spoiler: Recent WoB Supports Pathways Theory Meaning of “Essence” “Catalyst” as Cosmere Word Why Non-Metal Catalysts Are Invested The Role of Catalyst in Cosmere Thermodynamics: Awakening Catalysts and Identity

The Fourth Ideals of all orders that follow the regular oath system, is about when to stop following your ideals. This Windrunner has trouble understanding the fourth oath because it goes against protecting. (Note: The next sentence only works when assuming the elsecaller oaths are about being logical and Jasnah swearing four out of five oaths) Ivory tells Jasnah that she did the right thing when saving Renarin, even when it goes against the logic of the known fact they known. Renarin is bonded to a corrupted spren and is probably using voidbinding. The skybreakers Ideal of Crusade(4th Oath) can teach the Skybreaker when to have compassion on those that break the law, which they need for the fifth oath, Ideal of Law. The windruuner need to know when not to protect, so he can protect others. Jasnah needs to know that logic, do to lack of not knowing everything, can't be the only deciding factor. The Radiants need restraints.

I just saw this very cool response from Brandon over on this Reddit thread. Basically, BS had previously said he'd like to include a Nalthis essay (which was notably absent from the original Arcanum Unbounded) in a future edition, around the time of its paperback release and/or Oathbringer. Given that both have happened, they asked if he still intended to write that and here's his response: So... that's pretty awesome, yeah?

As a person with Asperger’s Syndrome Bands Of Mourning is where I began to really appreciate Steris as I saw bits of myself in her. The bit where she asks everyone for advice in sex only to be frustrated because everyone gives her a vague and unhelpful “you’ll know” answer, the snarky “like that wouldn’t be embarrassing” to Wax when he suggests asking him. The fact that she is constantly being honest with herself and questioning herself, and being open about her flaws. I also laughed at how Wax was surprised when she showed enough logic to not follow him into a fortress full of people and started to act as if he was still arguing with her. Also in hindsight now that I realize that she has Asperger’s Syndrome that multiple page pre-nup from the first book makes sense. I am so used to having trouble explaining myself clearly that it often least to me pre-explain things and covering things in as much detail as possible to make sure nothing is left out. That pre-nup was foreshadowing.

He has since said some rude things about the Cosmere having never read it, and been demoted to Rayse.

I don't disagree with your conclusion. The most straight-forward (and I'm sure consensus) read is that Adolin is straight; he dates women and marries a woman in the text after all! I'm just rather attached to the alternative You have a good point; why would Adolin not be out if he was in fact gay? My counterpoint is that even though we know homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar, it doesn't seem to be that prominent; of all of the men we've seen on the page, we only have two (Drehy and Dru) who we know are gay. I don't think Adolin is consciously repressing his romantic feelings towards men, but instead that he doesn't know how to process them in the first place. Adolin is also in the situation where he's been told (both explicitly and implicitly) that he needs to marry a woman, as that is the "normal" structure of Alethi relationships (male/female pairs with duties split along gender lines) and he also has the added pressure that he should produce an heir. I think we could have a plausible situation where Adolin primarily (maybe exclusively) sees male/female pairings and since he has been told he needs to marry a woman for lineage purposes, he sees that as the only possible option. This is where I could see his friendship with Drehy coming into play, as a way to give Adolin awareness that these rather intense feelings he has for Kaladin are actually more than just friendship. But, I may be just a teeny tiny bit biased on the matter

Buy The music will spread through worldhoppers and Shadesmar, and will arrive on Scadrial. From it, a new style will emerge there, called Metal.

Why is there a big privacy screen at the back of every Vorin bank? So you don't see the vault attendant's safe hand.

Buy This new musical styling will be called the Numuhukus, because irony.

I'm sure he thinks so, but sell, because storm that guy. Rock will learn to hear the rhythms, and will teach them to some musicians. A new style of music driven by distinctive pounding beats will sweep Roshar, and of course be named in Rock's honor.

Dbec sat in his daylight hideout. He had only told one skaa where it was, so they could come and tell him if there were Allomancers or angry Mobs coming. It was supposed to be even safer from the house; with the knowledge he had given the skaa, they would not betray him. They would be more loyal than any other group. The angry mob of nobles stood in the street, trying to follow the confusing map a skaa had given them. It had strange letters on it, which they assumed pointed out street names in some phonetic approximation of the Steel Alphabet. They went through one alley, finally finding a door. Going through it, they found Dbec. Leaflets were scattered in the street the next day, advertising positions in House Heatherlocke. Being written in that strange phonetic letter set, no one could understand it. It was just a joke among the few skaa, who escaped Luthadel to become scholars.” Walin was Lynched! Give him upvotes for writing his own death scene for us. Walin (2): Fifth Scholar, Jondesu Orlok (1): Sart Shanerockes (1): Steeldancer The night will end in Player List

From the perspective of the Shardholder, sure. But the overall power shift seems.......kinda nice? We had Adonalsium whose power then got dispersed to planets via worldhopping shards. Woohoo more, better, stronger magics in more places! Now those shards are being splintered or splintering the own power and trickling the power down even more. The peoples of the cosmere use these powers to improve their technology, gain insight from other realms, create connections to other peoples, and generally grow in knowledge and skills. It brings up a lot of age old political and religious questions. Should power belong to the few or the many? Does access to such power make the cosmere as a whole a better place, or just a more dangerous place? Is Odium really the secret Robin Hood hero of the cosmere, stealing from the rich and distributing to the poor? (Okay, that's a stretch ). Discuss!

When I was reading through Oathbringer, I made notes about some of the weird stuff that was mentioned. Stuff that's probably foreshadowing. Stuff that might be foreshadowing. Stuff that just seems a bit weird. Mysterious singing, ethereal smoky shapes...you get the idea. All page references refer to the hardcover page number. Anyway, here's my list of some weird things that were mentioned and what (if anything) I think they mean. Very often I don't have a clue, or at least not a good one. If I'd a clear explanation, it probably wouldn't have qualified as a curiosity in the first place! The following are roughly in the order that they appear throughout the book. Without further ado: 1) When talking to Kaladin about his family, Syl mentions a mysterious voice: Is this a reference to Tien? They're talking about his family, so it seems plausible, but I'm not sure why she'd mention it if so. Reminding Kaladin of things that depress him isn't something she generally does. But I don't know what other voice she'd be referring to. It's also another mention of music ("a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding"), which might mean nothing but which, as I note below, seems to play a pretty big background role in the Stormlight Archive. 2) Urithiru is weird: I think we can agree that Urithiru probably wasn't built along strange, twisted curves in order to fool invaders. It doesn't seem like the sort of place that would be attacked by anyone ever. How would you get your army there? It's not like Odium's forces could have used the Oathgates, and they don't have all that many Fused who can fly. There's also a line earlier about how there's more air circulating than there should be, though I didn't copy that one down because at the time I chalked it up to clever engineering. The second of the two quotes above indicate that more is going on than meets the eye, though -- no amount of clever engineering would make temperatures higher at Urithiru than on other similar peaks. The weird thing, though, is that this all seems to be happening without Stormlight. Urithiru's been uninhabited for ages, and it's too high up for most highstorms. If it were ancient fabrial tech...that still takes Stormlight, right? Soulcasting does, at least. So how is the place staying warm? Something weird is going on. 3) Dalinar sees a strange shadow-world: Later on the Stormfather claims that he made this in-between place, but the description sounds familiar to me. I can't place it, but I feel like we've seen this place somewhere before. Why would the Stormfather bother to create an in-between world, anyway? 4) Something is different about the Fused's lashings: So why didn't the Fused lash Moash? They can clearly lash people, since Moash himself got lashed upwards during the fight in the same scene and Kaladin later got lashed sideways. Seems strange that they'd choose to carry him rather than lash him. It's not like they're worried about running out of power, either. Later on, we see that the flying Fused use their lashings pretty profligately. I don't have a quote, but there's a scene where one of the Fused hovers while reading a book, apparently just because he/she can. Also, the Fused in Shadesmar are flying about willy-nilly despite Investiture apparently being more difficult to get there. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen a Fused run out of juice. Something's clearly different here. 5) Lopen looks under rocks for some strange reason: Now this could just be an instance of Lopen being weird, but it's hand-waved off a little too blithely for that to be the case. Lopen might be different, but he's not the sort of different that does things for no reason. Maybe he's supposed to be humoring his spren? Syl might want to look under rocks just to see what's beneath them, so that could be it. The scene in question is a pretty touching Bridge Four moment. It seems strange to call out Lopen for behaving bizarrely unless there's some ulterior motive behind it. He's never done anything that seemingly nonsensical before. 6) Odium and his spren appear Shin: Now supposedly Odium came to Roshar along with the humans, so it's not terribly surprising if he and his look like those original humans. But if that's the case, what happened to make everyone else appear non-Shin? We know a few races interbred with the Parshendi, but that shouldn't have given a homogeneous appearance to every non-Shin person on Roshar. Again, something is strange here, either with what happened or with what we've been told. It's also worth noting that stone is clearly associated with Odium and his spren. Where Syl flies about, Odium's spren clearly walk on stone, as seen in the quote above. The Thunderclasts rise up out of stone. This might give a new interpretation to the Shin refusal to walk on stone and Szeth's belief that Urithiru was formed of stone unhallowed. Do the Shin revere/worship Odium? It seems a bit weird -- they're basically pacifists, after all -- but not entirely implausible. Still, they can't really be directly allied with Odium, either. If they were, Odium could've had all the Honorblades by the time of the battle for Thaylen city, since Shinovar isn't all that distant when one's emissaries can fly. Then again, maybe he does have them already and just didn't want to risk them in the battle? 7) Some spren are changed by Sja-Anat, some are not: What explains this? Are hungerspren more of Odium so Sja-Anat doesn't feel the need to corrupt them? Were hungerspren corrupted en masse during some previous Desolation, so that all the present-day "normal" hungerspren are actually the corrupted form of some prior version? There probably isn't enough information to tell what's going on yet, but maybe someone has ideas. 8) Hoid. Strange as always: First, Pattern says Wit feels like "one of us." It's not clear whether "one of us" means a Lightweaver, a Radiant, a Cryptic, a spren, or something else. He also plays around with Shallan's lightweaving/Stormlight in a way that (if I understand correctly) shouldn't be possible: Maybe he's just drawing it from her spheres, but considering that he needed her help to get the lightweaving going in the first place, it seems a bit strange. He's piggybacking off of her somehow. I'm not going to try to guess how, but it's worth noting, perhaps, as a thing he can do. 9) More weirdness with Shallan's lightweaving. Kaladin's shash brand doesn't stay covered up like it's supposed to: Later, Kaladin checks to see that the gem Shallan tied the illusion to still has Stormlight, and it does, so it's not like he sucked it up without realizing it. Kaladin couldn't get rid of his brand in Words of Radiance, and now Shallan can't cover it up for long, either. I get that the WoR thing is due to Stormlight healing, but that shouldn't mess with Shallan's illusion, I wouldn't think. 10) There's some weird humming/singing going around in Alethkar: First, we've got one of the revelers humming in what I take to be a manner similar to Pattern, then later we've got the queen singing a song that Kaladin almost recognizes. I'm not really sure what to make of these, but given the apparent importance of music to the Stormlight Archives so far, I think it's worth noting. 11) Syl freaks out after killing a spren: I'm not sure why she's so upset about killing a spren, honestly. She doesn't have any problem killing humans or Parshendi. She was even protecting Elhokar's baby from the red spren, so she should be happy. Maybe it's because she's a spren herself? But then, she mentions that honorspren hunt at least some types of spren, so that doesn't seem like the answer, either. Again, something doesn't quite add up here. 12) Sja-Anat mentions a son that Shallan could apparently ask for advice: So at first I thought she might have Renarin's spren, but this doesn't work because Renarin isn't even anywhere near Shallan at the time, so she certainly can't stop and ask Glys for advice on whether to use the Oathgate even if she were likely to trust a corrupted Radiant spren anyway, which seems doubtful. So who or what could Sja-Anat be referring to? It has to be someone nearby and who Shallan would find trustworthy. 13) Winespren: sometimes rare, sometimes common: I know it's mentioned that some spren are more location-dependent than others, but why is this the case? I could see it if one country tended to drink a lot more alcohol than its neighbors, but from what I can tell, people all over Roshar are drinking a lot of alcohol. So why would the winespren only hang out in just one spot? 14) Syl's memory doesn't come back at all when she returns to the Cognitive Realm: Maybe I don't quite get what's going on, but since she had to leave most of her memory behind when she left the Shadesmar, I'd have thought that she'd have gotten her memory back when she returned to Shadesmar. Instead it looks like she's going to continue getting it back piece by piece, as Kaladin progresses with his Oaths. From a meta perspective, I get that there are probably narrative reasons to keep her (and thus the main characters) in the dark for a long while yet. But it's still not what I'd expected. 15) Syl doesn't want to enter the lighthouse: This might just be that she doesn't like to be confined, which is established more explicitly later, but I wonder if there isn't something more to it. Pattern goes in and happily starts poking around, so it can't be anything that repels spren in general. 16) Chapter 103: This is Dalinar's dream/vision of Nohadon where he goes grocery shopping. It's pretty weird. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a dream or if it's supposed to be magical. It doesn't quite seem like either one -- too coherent for a dream, but too incoherent to be a vision. 17) Odium's word versus Preservation's: Mistborn original trilogy spoilers: So anyway, that's my big list of "weird Oathbringer stuff" that might or might not be worth talking about. If there's anything I missed -- and there almost certainly is -- feel free to point it out.

How do you know we do not use dipthongs in private? Some of us are a little shy showing off our dipthongs publicly, but are quite comfortable using them at home.

Jeo slowly gathered up his dice as the others began to talk rapidly. He stayed quiet and thought through the people here in camp. There were a lot of newcomers, including himself. This whole division had been slapped together by a lot of people. As far as he had seen, none of them really knew one another. "A spy, here, among us?" A tall soldier shouted out right next to Jeo’s ear. "This shall not stand! The long arm of the Idrian military police will apprehend this cretin and bring him to justice! And I, commander Jaaver, shall be the firm grasp of the hand of justice's long arm!" He spun on his heel towards Jeo and his new players. "You all have hereby been deputized into the search for this villain! Go forth, and report any suspicious or extravagant behavior to me!" Jaaver twirled about, and then fell face first into a mud puddle. Jeo slapped his hand over his mouth to keep from laughing at the ridiculousness of it. Also, was commander even a rank in the Army? Who was this guy? He had also just deputized about a quarter of the small division. “I think past crimes mean I can’t be a deputy of the law, unless given, uh, amnesia for past crimes.” “Wait, past crimes? You’re a criminal?” one of the soldiers nearby asked. “Nah. I just ran away from a battle early on in the war. I’ve fought in loads since though.” “A criminal, and a liar!” Jeo turned to see Mac pointing at him. He was holding up a piece of dirty paper, that had a lot of numbers and sign on it. “He said that we had a 50/50 chance of winning at Craps, but it’s actually 50.7 chance of losing!” Jeo stared at the man, who continued to triumphantly point back. Jeo turned away, ignoring him. Salthis looked to be coming over to talk to him, and that would be a more productive conversation than talking about the concept of rounding. “Salthis, my fellow deputy! Want to help me convince the Marshall to give us his files? He knows who assigned which soldier to this division, so if we can find an infiltrator, we can use the knowledge of who sent them to find their fellows!”

@RippleGylf The pre-game RP was almost exclusively about a crap game. We probably took up nearly a page playing craps. (In class)

Jeo the yellow. After doing the math, Mac found out that the odds for winning at craps were not 50/50. They were 49.29% to 50.71%. Spies were supposed to lie to people, right? @A Joe in the Bush

I'd love to have the meta experience of Wayne doing the audiobooks for Mistborn.

Hey! I've been looking at all the good things here and I thought I might join. I look forward to seeing you all around!

Double post, but whatever, it's a small thread. Karsa is, indeed, soooo much better the 2nd time around. Witness!

I could totally see Adolin as being bi as well.

Sell Stick becomes Odium’s vessel

Sell. The 10 flashback characters will become the 10 new heralds who re-establish the oathpact.

Buy! Dalinar suffers a brief descent into madness after publishing "Oathbringer", spends weeks arguing with spanreed critics and trolls.

What's the deal with The Skybreakers? You'd think an order with the essence of smoke/vapor who bond with Highspren would be a lot more chill!

I am proud to finally join the OB discussion board! This one was just too adorable to ignore... Come on, it was such a beautiful set up Even my roommate, who knows nothing about the cosmere (yet) laughed at these two. At the end of the book, we all see:

Szeth and Nightblood. Insane man and sword that just wants to destroy evil...where the sword is the voice of reason.

I must also throw my hat in for Vin and Elend, and Kaladin and Syl. But speaking of hats the truly best relationship in the Cosmere is Wayne and Hats.

As the liar turned away from him, Mac stared back astounded. Looking around, he realized that no one else seemed to care. What happened? I released this extremely relevant information that could help us root out the spies, and no one cares?? Why wouldn't someone care? Unless, wait, what if they are all spies? And I'm the only loyalist! Oh no, they're coming for me!! I have to run, escape!!! Wait. Another voice came from the back of his head. Yes? You're being crazy. Its been a half hour sense you last had a cookie. You are going through withdrawal. Eat one or two and look at this situation with new eyes. Oh fine. Mac reached into his pocket and ate two cookies rapidly, waited till he was calm, then looked at the situation again. I guess, accusing somebody of smudging a detail that would have only factored in at around 1000 games is a bit extreme. I need to wait for more information to accuse Jeo of being a spy.

lopen because no evil-minish-wizard-thing-that-also-is-the-god-of-wind should be trusted. Besides, he turned Ezlo into a hat.

saw it Saturday night. Worth every penny, even for the overpriced drinks and popcorn.

I saw this somewhere else, but I don’t know where, so I can’t give the person credit. Now that Shallan has married Adolin, she is a Semi-Kholin.

Sell. At some point Kaladin and Adolin will have a dance off for the right to determine the future of Alethi fashion.

Not as funny but what the heck.

This annoys me to no end, especially that neither Dalinar not Adolin question it. You leave a full shardbearer back to protect to king, there is an attempt on the king's life, full shardbearer just disappears - and there are no questions...? All we see in OB is Bridge 4 wondering about Moash a tiny bit. I hope something comes of it in the next book, but I kind of doubt it.

So, basically, Ghostbloods are the Cosmere version of Mitsubishi Motors?

Elhokar was my favourite character...he tried so hard in the end

Finished about an hour ago, loved the book overall. I had intended to start at the beginning but found myself downloading the ebook and jumping into the interludes at midnight last night . First time posting on the forums, but I need to get some thoughts/theories out of my head from my probably much too fast read-through: I'm kind of glad we didn't see Kaladin swear his fourth oath in OB, it gave the others some much needed time in the spot light, and it feels he would be running out of steam approaching books 4 and 5 having gone Surgebinding>Blade>Plate in the first three. Teft's oath really choked me up. The missing unmade is possibly the third bondsmith spren, perhaps providing precedence for Sja-anat's (assuming I am not mixing names) apparent defection. While Adolin's perspective as a non-radiant fighter can be refreshing, I think that it's pretty likely that he will awaken his blade at some point, even if he doesn't become a surgebinder as a result.The events of the book, along with the fact that of all the orders, the Edgedancer oaths seem extremely appropriate to the revival of a dead blade, as well as their surge being regrowth, lead me to expect it in the coming books. I wonder if humans are an intrinsic part of Rayse's method of shattering other shards, or if his arrival with them in this case was a one-off thing. I was really hoping to see Elhokar given the opportunity to become the man he wanted to be, so his death was dissapointing to me. I like the idea that the spren Wit found in the epilogue was perhaps the one he was beginning to bond. Some more Cosmere spoilery stuff:

When you're out in the cold outdoors and see your breath puffing out in front of you so lean over to your friend and say "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." before exhaling dramatically. When you're at a concert and see that someone across the room from you is wearing an "I am a stick" shirt and spend the entire rest of the concert planning to go over and say "But you could be a fire". Then pout half the evening when they manage to get leave the room before you even stand up. When the text on your birthday cake is in High Imperial. (Best part of my birthday )