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Hello everyone, I do not expect this to be a popular post. My apologies in advance. But I have to step in here. We have deliberated and we have decided to close this topic. This post will be explaining exactly why that is. I'd like to state for the record that we are not out to get anyone. What is a forum if you can't post your opinions? That's obviously very important. People are allowed to dislike books. People are allowed to dislike things in books. This forum should be a safe place for everyone. That's the thing, though. Forums should be a place where people feel comfortable discussing things. We had this occur last month, for instance, the classic distinction in our community where some hardcore theorizers shot down some theories from newer, less hardcore members. We can do better as a community to balance, as always. So that leads us into this thread. We have seen many, many reports on this thread, with many people on all sides saying things like, "this is allowed? Seriously?" That's basically everyone. This thread has been described to us privately as "toxic" and "a cesspool." Many have told us that they never want to join in the thread again. They feel unsafe in the thread. Opinions would be attacked immediately. That's absolutely terrible and unacceptable, full stop, and we should not be okay with this being the status quo of discourse here. We on the mod team wanted to keep this open, because we know this is a contentious issue. Some will always think we're just doing this to silence criticism of Oathbringer, because I don't know, they think all the mods are yes-men who love everything Brandon written. (Never mind that that is completely false, and any day of the week you can chat with us on works some staff didn't like, some things very aggressively so.) Just know, we have let this sit for a very long time to see how things panned out, and as you can plainly see, plenty of threads that are critical of Oathbringer are visible and active right now. It's clear that this thread is causing people to feel unsafe, and that, as moderators, makes us very nervous. It really worries us that this might be the thread people see and it's one of the first they participate in, and they get into something that's very heated and they immediately nope out of the thread. You can very clearly see that members who briefly join the thread don't continue pages later. Generally discourse has been very poor in this thread, with all involved thinking they are excellent at arguing, and of course, you are definitely accepting the other side, but everyone else isn't listening to your amazing arguments. Is this you? Then you should think about that. People are making others feel unwelcome, and this is a major issue. Have rules been broken? There have definitely been attacks, and we've tried to tone things down, but the discourse hasn't really improved. I'm personally not sure what we should do as a moderator team to make better rules on things so we foster good discussion. This is a case where a thread hurts the spirit of the community while (for the most part) being within the letter of its rules. Here are some musings: A Reddit thread generally has a limited shelf life. Comments in a YouTube video die off after a while. But forums are somewhat perfectly designed for this sort of thing to evolve, where people have intense opinions and through sustained effort, drive away reasonable discourse. It's worse in this case because so much of Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin controversy has been in this thread, and so it's continually gotten more extreme as things progress. Forum topics don't close so this could literally progress ad infinitum, years from now, and that's very concerning. I think opinions have been said at this stage, in extensive detail, and don't need to be continued. When the cost to the community is the impression that the site is overall toxic, we need to act, so we have decided to close the thread, and hopefully things should cool down. Just to be clear: if you like Adolin, that is not an inherently bad thing and is not a thing that is to be said dismissively. (As in, "oh, you just like Adolin, so I'm disregarding what you say.") Similarly, critique of Adolin and saying that Kaladin and Shallan are way better for each other is a completely valid opinion to have, and we expect people to (obviously) continue to have that opinion. But we can treat people way more respectfully than has occurred in this thread. Please remember that as we move forward. People are entitled to their opinions, but at some point people are just talking over each other and it hasn't been productive for anyone. Please feel free to discuss this with me. We are always willing to listen if you have a concern, and are looking for ways to improve.

Dealing with the crisis at Hearthstone mostly turns back into Brandon subverting the idea of the Voidbringers being rampaging monsters, which was basically already subverted in WoR. Personally, seeing Kaladin meeting his family, Laral and Roshone was more satisfying than anything else. Shallan did interact more with the Ghostbloods. We didn't learn too much more about them, but Brandon's playing the long game with them. Can't blame him for not giving up the game immediately. Jasnah did get information, but she mostly kept it to herself. What she did get has already come in handy, as seen in the last part of the book. She may even have some more nuggets tucked away. Again, your problem seems to be that Brandon has not given away the game in one book. This is a ten book epic. Everything can't be revealed at once. Adolin killing Sadeas directly led into House Sadeas' defection to Odium though. As for personal consequences to Adolin, it eroded his father's view of who he thought, or rather wanted Adolin to be. Moash joined odium instead, which makes him more significant. In fact, seeing as the Diagramists are, at least for now, Odium's side, he did end up joining them, in a way. One of the problems of reading a long running series like this are that people get entirely too comfortable with what they want to happen and mix it up with what the author foreshadows, or they end up being far too invested in their theories and aren't able to fully accept what the author actually writes.

I relate a lot to this:

I just received my Well of Ascension Dragonsteel edition so I thought I'd share my Q &A. I was trying to leave as little wiggle room as I could, but I couldn't be as specific as I wanted due to the constraints on numbers of characters. But, it's still an answer : Q: "Can Stormlight give enough extra strength that a humanoid could use a Shardbow w/out Plate? A: "Not normally" This was basically me trying to hammer down what was going on with Rock and the Shardbow. There was a good conversation a while back about Rock and the Shardbow that can be found here:The Future for Rock. Don't want to type out all my thoughts again, so I'll just paste what I was saying then: So, if Stormlight doesn't vastly improve strength then I think Rock being able to shoot it accurately, twice, can only be explained by so many things: 1. Rock is not just strong, or unnaturally strong; he is the strongest man on Roshar. I find this hard to believe. 2. Rock is aided by something or someone unknown and unseen. Now, I think it has to be #2 but what is he aided by? I don't think he's bonded an honorspren, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is(and has been since we've seen him) already bonded to an unknown spren. But I actually think it is less of a 'traditional' bond but more of a symbiotic relationship that Horneaters have with spren, a la' greatshells, Ryshadiums, and the like that grants extra strength and other abilities. Maybe it's all Horneaters, or maybe Rock's bloodline makes him extra special(I'm inclined to the latter) but I think Rock has a deeper relationship with spren, then he wants to admit. Not because he's unnaturally secretive, but because if true, it's likely one of the great secrets of Horneaters..You know? The one you don't tell anyone. Ever. I think spren-symbiosis could go a long way towards explaining the weird 'spren-things' around Rock. And Rock is certainly a man of secrets: I think the lies he has been telling them, is everything he's ever told them about spren and his abilities with them. I can't wait to my next reread so I can go through Rock's parts, looking for lies So anyways, Brandon's answer isn't exactly a definitive one since there's a ton of wiggle room in "Not Normally",..But by using the powers of confirmation-bias I'm going to claim it as a point in my favor!

LG42 - Night 2: Misreading Magus Astrum thought he was about to die. “The obligators have found skaa blood in your lineage,” pronounced Locke Tormander. “Are you sure?” Magus asked, trying to keep a calm demeanor. “Are you absolutely certain it doesn’t say Boseph Jush Tormander? Our names look so similar, you know. Only a few letters off and all.” Several eyebrows were raised, but no one said anything. Magus grabbed the paper from him. Locke looked indignant, but was too proper to say anything rude. “Aha!” Magus proclaimed triumphantly. “Tiny letters, so it’s difficult to make out, but this definitely says Boseph Jush.” He grinned and tossed the paper at the fireplace. Auden Heatherlocke caught it. Magus winced. “It says Magus,” Auden confirmed. They all pretended not to see an Inquisitor take him away. (They had to pretend very hard, because he was being quite loud. But they somehow managed.) Magestar was lynched! The Night will end in Vote Count Mage (7): Bugsy, Drought, Eternum, Fifth Scholar, Orlok, Shanerockes, Steeldancer Drought (4): Devotary, Jondesu, Mafia, Mage No Lynch (1): Walin A Joe in the Bush (1): Straw Player List: (Eternum) Auden Ostlin Heatherlocke (Walin) Dbec Heatherlocke (Steeldancer) Leets Heatherlocke (Araris Valerian) Hadrian Heatherlocke (Straw) Straw Heatherlocke (Sart) Taswell Ffnord (Jondesu) Remart Ffnord (Living Legend) Jonas Ffnord (Shanerockes) Lebereth Ffnord (Fifth Scholar) Count Olaf Ffnord (Stick) Stick Heron (Crimsn Wolf) Altea Meza Heron (Mafia) Ivan Heron (Devotary of Spontaneity) Lord Grumbles Heron (Orlok Tsubodai) Locke Tormander (Droughtbringer) Boseph Jush Tormander (Bugsy) Bugsy Tormander Also. Do not PM during turnover. Please.

Hey everyone! After some much needed distance from the books and world of Roshar, I am diving back in from the very beginning and reading through to the end of Oathbringer. Unlike the 7 or 8 times I’ve read the first two books, where I did so for the pure pleasure of it, this time I am rereading with a specific purpose in mind: an in-depth analysis of one of the most confusing and unreliable characters in Stormlight, also known as Shallan Davar. Before I get started, I want to thank those of you who have welcomed me onto the Shard and liked my posts up until now. I have really come to enjoy the Shard, and it's nice to talk about the Cosmere with those who care about it as much as, or more, than I do. Special thanks go to @SLNC, who frequently is able to phrase things I am trying to say in a more concise and direct way, especially when my posts are nearly half a page (on here) long. I'd also like to thank @Fifth of Daybreak, who helped me immensely in developing my "forum voice" and was willing to carry on a rather lengthy debate and call me out when I was getting too heated, without ever making me feel like my thoughts were insignificant. @maxal has also frequently been a rational and contrary voice that explains the opposite side of the fence from me in coherent and well-thought out replies, which is crucial in any effective discussion. Let me preface this analysis by saying that this is a project I have wanted to tackle for a long time. Originally, I intended to do this as a set-up for Oathbringer, but with the birth of my second daughter and complications after, I ran out of time. Then, I planned on doing this immediately after my first read-through of Oathbringer, but other things in life and my own mental state after reading the book forced it to be put on hold until I could be at a place where I could approach this from a more neutral ground. As a little bit of background, when I first read through The Way of Kings, I fell in love with the character of Shallan almost instantly. As an artist myself who has often lived on the side of the fence where I never seem to fit in, no matter how I changed myself or what I did, she resonated with me and spoke to me in a way that almost no other character in any fiction has ever done. Her sense of humor is right up my alley, and having been raised in a somewhat sheltered environment, I see a lot of myself in this character, and the more I read The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, the more I grew fascinated with her story and how she came to be. Then I read Oathbringer, and her story was hard for me to read, but not because it was tedious or boring, but rather because in a small way, it mirrored something I went through in high school. I love the character--in fact, I believe I actually love her more now than before--but with the chaotic mess that was Shallan in Oathbringer, I believe this is now the right time for this analysis to occur. In some part, this analysis was inspired by @maxal, whose analysis of Adolin pre-Oathbringer was one of the motivating factors in my joining the Shard in the first place. I’ve also observed, as I’ve seen many people comment on the character, that a large majority of readers have a difficult time liking or understanding the character, and some skip her chapters entirely. As Shallan is by far my most favorite character in the entire Cosmere, my hope is that through this analysis I can bring some of what I find intriguing and fun about this character to everyone else. The inconsistency and unreliability of the narrator are only part of the fun. As I progress through this read-through, I will be making a bunch of notes privately, that will probably be completely incomprehensible to anyone else. If you really want to see them, ask and I will post them; however, I will revise those notes into a coherent document that will be updated as I read. During my analysis, I will focus on a few things about the character. Yes, there will be a little bit of analysis of the shipping involved (be warned), but I will strive my hardest to approach it from a neutral ground and point out the good and the bad, as I see it, on both sides. Other aspects of Shallan’s character that I will focus on and try to analyze and explain are: How her past (as it is mentioned in the text) has influenced the narrator we’re reading. Modern influences on the character of Shallan and how that affects the narrator we're reading. Mental jiggery-pokery, or in other words, her mental side-stepping habits, and the immediate and long-lasting ramifications of it. Contradictions in the narrator’s voice, and why those contradictions are occurring. Comparisons between Shallan and Kaladin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states Comparisons between Shallan and Adolin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states I should note that comparisons between Shallan and the two boys will occur primarily from Shallan's standing. My reasons for the view I have comes entirely from the standpoint of Shallan as a character, not from whether or not I think Kaladin is a better match or Adolin is. As I said, I will try hard to be impartial in my analysis here, and will try to stay away from my opinions on Kaladin or Adolin, generally. SIDE NOTE: I like both of them and I like both of them for her, and for different reasons. I just happen to think one is better than the other, but that is neither here nor there. Comparisons between Shallan and Wayne (from Mistborn Era 2) There are some similarities between what Wayne and Shallan do, and also some stark differences on how those actions affect their mental states. And I’m sure there are other topics that will come up as I read. If there’s something about the character that you feel I haven’t mentioned that you would like included in the analysis, please let me know and I will do my best to incorporate it. If you have thoughts on something I've written, tell me. Discussion is encouraged--I merely am hoping that this will help to make Shallan a more enjoyable character for everyone. One thing I do ask, however, is to stay away from flippant and antagonistic comments--to disagree with me is okay, and it doesn't matter to me if we never agree. On that note…here we go. Let's start The Way of Kings again. EDIT: At @Jofwu's suggestion, I'm including the text from the document below the chapters for ease of discussion (also for indexing, as @Vissy recommended), but I will also have a comprehensive document that keeps track of changes to Shallan over the course of the books. The big document: WayofKings Shallan Character Analysis.docx Chapter 3 - City of Bells: Chapter 5 - Heretic:

Ehh....I disagree that "not choosing" to make the problem worse is a victory, and while she's at least made a decision regarding Adolin, I don't think she's trying to go on "the right path" either. At the very best, she's just becoming stagnant--she's not going anywhere, she's not confronting her problems, she's not trying to get over them, but she's also not fracturing further. At the worst, however, she is either ignoring the problem, or she's avoiding the truth. Both of those are bad options. For me, even a small step in the path to self-closure would be a victory to me, but what she's doing is simply not stepping. She's not going forward or backward. She's reached a plateau, built herself a tenuous foundation to stand on, but she's still fractured. She's still avoiding the problems within, and she's still not her most genuine self. But this plateau's going to crumble eventually and if she doesn't try to climb out of the hole she's dug herself in, she's only going to fall farther.

Thank you, @A Budgie, for this wonderfully versatile screenshot.

Best Case: Cosmere novella. Worst Case: another YA series, since Skyward isnt working either. Craziest case: Magic: The Gathering story treatment. Most Disappointing Case: Skyward 2 is titled "Secret Project."

So basically my native Language is Hebrew so I'm reading the books in Hebrew. I really love composing and making music so the moment I'v seen that there are Lyrics to a song In WoR I knew I had to do it. So here it is, I hope you enjoy it and please comment what you thought of it despite the language barrier. I want to also share how amazing and strong the secend appearance of this song was for me, after I'v already composed it and read the words with my tune.

I have to say: How exactly did Brandon Sanderson promise anything? How is he breaking a promise? How did he keep a promise before? A promise is something an author makes outside the text of his book. If there's a WoB somewhere that says all those things will happen, I'd like to see it. Foreshadowing, however, is a technique that authors use inside works of fiction. Here Brandon foreshadowed some things, but others may have just been the result of a forum full of crazy obsessed people that have 3 years between books to analyze every word in a set of enormous books in order to predict future events....(hmm, wait a minute, side note: we are VOIDBRINGERS). I personally think it's awesome when Brandon plays with our expectations by hinting at something to come, then in fact taking things the other way. As someone pointed out above, the visit to Hearthstone very likely was written in that way to cause the reader to feel the same way Kaladin did. His surprise was our surprise. Why, exactly, is that a promise broken? Why would we want everything that is foreshadowed to become a checklist to tick off in the next volume? Wouldn't that make life kinda boring?

Best case scenario: He wrote Stormlight 4 by accident Worst case scenario: decided to try his hand at YA vampire romance.

I've been thinking up some Kaladin memes lately

Brandon's been commenting on WoT subreddits recently. Is it a hint that he's working on a secret WoT story? No clue is too minor to not blow out of proportion!

Lopen and the ground.

Doesn't he know that leaving it to our imagination is guaranteed to get our hopes up? When he leaves a title blank, I fill it with unreasonable expectations! Maybe 2018 won't be The Year Without Cosmere after all! Already the hypespren gather in great numbers! They float around my ears and whisper Nightblood, Nightblood. And disappointmentspren are waiting in the wings, knowing their day will come.

Let me start by saying im not a new member to this forum, just been awhile since was on here, new phone etc and cant remember old log in details or even the email used. Just finished Oathbringer yesterday, had only started reading it on monday, had it for awhile but didnt have the time to read it. That said i will focus on the thread title now. I found this book to be underwhelming and a disapointment. Main reason being the book was mainly filler, (no doubt people will take exception to that point but nonetheless it is true imo) There was little to none story progression, for 1233 page count book there was very little of the actual story told, mostly just filler material to bulk out the book. Character progression was non existant, some characters actually regressed imo, Kaladin. Best character in the books imo. Basically has become relegated to a side note. Shallan After WoR, expected alot more from her character, instead she had identity crisis the entire book. She is annoying at this point and most her povs were pointless and she just makes me cringe, Dalinar Flashback sequence was good, why he went to the nightwatcher was rather pathetic though. Also the dalinar we knew from previous books was a lie and find it hard to believe a spren nevermind the stormfather would bond to the man he was or that people ie kaladin and bridge 4 also Szeth would follow him knowing the truth. Szeth Swearing the 3rd ideal of the skybreakers to follow dalinar when he doesnt know him is also rather odd, found this part to not make a great deal of sense. Adolin I remember after WoR this forum was full of theories about what killing sadeas would do to him, most of ye will also recall this, turns out he just didnt care lol Renarin Useless as ever and bonded to the bad spren, but thats ok.........yeah..... Jasnah Seems altogether to powerful compared to the others, maybe its just her experience but wish was more pov chapters from her. Taravangian Having seen the diagram was wrong so much should of realised even at his smartest he was still woefully inadequete to predict future events and turned from the diagram instead latched on to small bits were right and joined odium Venli Seems to of bonded a normal spren just as a counterpoint to renarin bonding a odium spren in my opinion, eshonai bonding that spren would of made some sense venli bonding it made none. Shadesmer The trip here served no point but to take kaladin/shallan etc out the way for awhile, the chapters about it could be taken out the book and would make no difference Lifr Should be more chapters about lift, interesting character Moash His story unlike most the others did progress and found the direction he went to be refreshing (mirrored kaladins to an extent, difference being he accepted something kaladin refused to), and would of liked more povs from him. Bridge 4 Very lightly involved this time around, teft suddenly being a crack head was a bit weird, and out the blue, everyone suddenly being able to be a squire and proto radiant was also a bit strange imo, bridge 4 understandable, all the other random people joining in hopes of being a squire was bit much and rlain was underused and the little we got was left hanging, Voidbringers Was obvious the humans were the real voidbringers since book 1, found this revelation to be kinda silly and it being the reason for the recreance a bit of a cop out. I realise this isnt going to be a popular train of thought on this forum but it is my opinion, that the book we got wasnt what it should of been, best characters and stories pushed to the side, no real progression in story or character arcs, for the story we got the book could of been cut to a 3rd, as alot was filler material for shake of it, shallan dominated the book and was just a repetive stroy arc all through the book at that, kaladin basically a sidenote and support act, The way of kings was a 5/5 star book Word of radiance was a 4.5/5 book Oathbringer is 3/5 star book at best. I hope the series doesn't keep going on the downward spirial it seems to be going. I realise this (most likely) is all going to probably be cut to pieces by a lot of people, but before ye do that, ask yourself this, is oathbringer really the story ye thought it would be? Or the story ye wanted ? If ye say yes that it is, then id be shocked. If spelling mistakes i apologise, using my phone

When you are thinking about @scyron's post above, then think, "Holy crap, unicorns are just spiked horses."

It's more than just that. It's something they teach in almost all fiction writing. It's basically the reason that the chekovs gun thing exists. When you present certain things to a reader you create expectations, and failure to address those expectations is a "broken promise." The issue here is that not all expectations are if readers are intended. Brandon can't be expected to keep "promises" that people think he made. It's like getting mad that someone forgot your birthday when they never knew it in the first place.

When you read this in the Book of Judges And immediately think of hemalurgy. So, Biblical Inquisitors confirmed?

Underwhelming isn’t the word I would use to describe OB because many aspects of it were very affecting to me. But I do sympathize with that point of view because in some ways it wasn’t what I expected and parts of it did fall flat for me. I’m trying to withhold final judgment because I am in the middle of a re-read and I’m afraid I didn’t absorb it all the first go round which leaves me vulnerable to the parts that didn’t work for me having too much of an effect on my overall impression. But I’ll try to sum up some major points for now. This was Dalinar’s book and while his ending was very satisfying I found myself not enjoying almost all of his flashbacks. I was hard to spend so much time seeing him not progress. It was clear from the beginning that we were being shown a different, monstrous Dalinar but it didn’t require all the pages it took to establish that and he didn’t change much until after the flashbacks ended. I found myself only really interested in his visit to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. His current day thread also was rather slow moving until the end (which did make up for a lot). Shallan was nearly as important in this book as Dalinar and while a lot changed for her it also did largely feel like regression, which made it painful at times to read. Unlike Dalinar, none of that seemed paid off by her ending which if anything made me feel more uneasy because on the surface it seems like we are supposed to believe everything is okay with her. But if so it doesn’t feel justified and if not I guess that means there is even more pain to come. Unfortunately her romantic arc was deeply unsatisfying to me, especially in this context and I fear that did affect my overall impression of the book on first read. Some things I really enjoyed: Elhokar, all interactions between Shallan and Wit and between Kaladin and Syl, seeing a different side of Jasnah although she was overall a more minor player, the Shadesmar sequence, and the payoff with Dalinar ascending. These are the positives that stuck with me after my first read. Bottom line, I think there is a difference between subverting expectations but in a way that feels justified and delivers a meaningful payoff and failing to deliver on expectations in a way that feels rushed or unjustified. My overall impression is that Dalinar’s storyline was more of the first (although it was slow getting there because of Brandon’s commitment to the structure of extended flashbacks for each of the main viewpoint characters). Unfortunately so far for me Shallan’s story was more of the latter, but I’m willing to hope it’s not as it seems and there may be a better payoff in the future.

That's 100% our own faults. We, like Kaladin, assumed there'd be a crisis because we assumed we knew things about the Voidbringers. The Hearthstone bit was done that way on purpose, to start us on the path of "maybe we're wrong about them," and facilitate Kaladin's internal moral conflict for the future. The non-radiant population seems to have trouble navigating Urithiru. The Radiant population(minus Jasnah) aren't the most scientific bunch. There's also the end of the world to be dividing their efforts. In the face of these, a lack of extreme progress is understandable. I'd say the discoveries of the giant Fabrial and the gemstone library are a good start on the mystical side, and the plumbing/air currents are a good start on the more mundane side(though it'd be good if they learned the secret to agriculture). The problem with the Recreance explanation is that it's become abundantly clear that there was no singular cause to the Recreance. Any singular scene revealing Recreance info is gonna come off as an unsatisfactory explanation to use because it's only one piece of the puzzle. The internal conflict of who to defend, the "Voidbringer" revelation, shattering the plains, creating the Parshmen, the "we won" declaration, etc... until a character puts all the various pieces together in-world, we've got to do it ourselves. We've gotten theory-crazy around here: we want to work for our answers, rather than getting them on a silver platter, and it seems like Brandon has noticed this. I'm sure it'll be spelled out in book 4 or 5 for the more casual readers, but I think that Brandon is giving us a puzzle, and is letting us solve it instead of just spelling it out for us(for now). A lot of things that were "supposed to happen" got interrupted by the arrival of the Fused. Remember those supply caravans that never arrived during one of Kaladin's chapters with the Parshmen? These aren't broken promises, it's just the way life goes.

Ill give you a cookie for your breath @tineye0309. Welcome to the forums.

I do agree that Kaladin is getting better, but I also wonder if he might be avoiding serious issues that could drag him back down. On that note, I think going straight to Shadesmar after Kholinar was bad for Kaladin personally. The sheer strangeness and danger of the place, and the fact that Dalinar needed his help so much, may have stopped him from dealing with what happened in Kholinar out of sheer necessity. For someone with as serious a problem as Shallan, not choosing to make the problem worse is a victory though. I think the end of OB at least shows that she's trying to go forward on the right path for her. IIRC, Kaladin doesn't know Veil and Radiant are a thing, so of course he's not going to differentiate between them. He and Adolin are working from two totally different levels of information, so is it really valid to compare them on this part? It's interesting to talk about reality in this case, because people can only work with the reality that they know. Adolin doesn't have the advantages of WoB's and reading Shallan's PoV like us ,the readers. He can only work with what Shallan tells him. In that context, I do think Adolin is doing the right things, as far as he is aware. In terms of what is best for Shallan, isn't it more important that she has someone there who is willing to support her? At least, Shallan certainly thinks so.

We suspect that 'common' spren associated with a particular Order may be involved in the creation of shardplate, due to what we see happen around Kaladin at times that he's being especially Windrunner-y but that doesn't mean it's a confirmed fact. And as mentioned, Fourth Ideal seems to be the typical threshold but we also know that not all Orders do things in the same way so that's not a hard and fast rule. Their Fourth Ideal is a two-step process but I don't think it's really an exception to the general swearing process. You declare the quest you intend to dedicate yourself to and the spren approves it, but the Ideal doesn't 'count' until you've actually done whatever it is you swore to do. In this it's not too different from what we see in Oathbringer, where it's clear that just knowing the words you're supposed to say isn't enough to swear an Ideal, there's another step involved. In the case of the Skybreakers this step just happens to be an external rather than internal one.

I can understand the normalcy point, though I don't know if I agree with it (normal would have been a uniform for Adolin, as that is what he's been wearing for the past six years. Fancy clothes would be a novelty at this point.) Even if we take the normalcy point, that is along the same lines as Adolin's focus was elsewhere besides on the task at hand, on making himself comfortable, on feeling normal. A perfectly natural feeling, but also different than the other three who were pushing their personal boundaries in order to accomplish the task (Kal being a lighteyes, Shallan risking her life to feed beggars (a misguided attempt, but that was her intent), Elhokar actually being a leader (lol at that last one)). I like your point about that quote on "fit" a lot more. It's something I had forgotten about. I'll quote it below for reference: Putting aside the fact this is a really stupid question by Shallan (they had been oathgate-napped from a battle. Why would Adolin wear a party suit to a battle? That's like me being kidnapped from the gym and someone asking why I was in gym clothes instead of a party dress), as I actually think the fact the question was so moronic means it was definitely only inserted so that Adolin could say his line using an alternate meaning of "fit." He's obviously not talking about physical fit (he didn't change size in the past day), but instead figurative fit. This aligns with Adolin's reflection on "feeling taller" when he puts back on the uniform prior to the battle. This shows great personal growth for Adolin IMO. The way I read it is that Adolin was able to indulge himself, for the first time in years, in the frivolous vanity of fancy clothes. He did so (much like a college student gorges themselves on bad food when they move out of their parent's house), and he realized he actually felt better, stronger in the uniform, and that frivolity didn't fit him anymore. Good, subtle character growth, so excellent point. Now, what is really interesting is that later on in Shadesmar (Ch. 101, Deadeye), there is an Adolin chapter which starts with Adolin sewing and having much thought over his Celebrant disguise clothes (and later critiquing everyone else's.) This is also the chapter where Adolin has conversations with both Ico and Azure about his concern with being king now that Elhokar is dead. I don't think this is a coincidence considering the above. Adolin had previously decided he didn't need fashion, as the utilitarian uniform suited him and made him feel better, yet the next time we see him fussing over fashion, he has a conversation (with Azure) that becomes one of the turning points in his decision to refuse to be king. So he's coming back to the frivolity of fashion at the same time he starts going down the path of abdicating his duty (or what his family would see as his duty), essentially turning away from the uniform and what it represents. [ETA: I think this does tie into the last part of the quote above - about not being worthy to wear the uniform due to his killing Sadeas. That is a huge factor in why he abdicates being king, and in fact his justification to his father, so it's as though Adolin is deciding he doesn't deserve to wear the uniform anymore, so in fact the frivolous clothes actually fit him better in the end due to his perceived lack of worthiness.] I'm spoilering this next part as it's long and only sort of on point. The codes were kept by the whole Kholin army. Adolin was playing Meleran Khal, youngest son of General Khal (see Ch. 69 and 77 for mention of this), who is a member of the Kholin army. Meleran would be subject to the same codes as Adolin. You can't argue that the fashion interest isn't Adolin being Adolin; it's mentioned in WoK (complaining about following the codes) and WoR (looking at folios) and then of course emphasized in OB (even outside of when he's playing Meleran, such as in Shadesmar.) Whether in the mind of Brandon this is comic relief/a personality quirk or symbolizes something deeper (which is why I like Maxal's point) is what remains to be seen. But Adolin isn't interested in fashion because he's playing a part; it's something which is part of his character. Another spoiler, because I digress into a discussion on sexuality stereotypes.

@Sunbird oh no, I have been made a meme!

Personally, I find Oathbringer to be the least compelling of the Stormlight Archive so far. If anyone wants to read why I think this, let me know and I'll post a more detailed list of my pros and cons. With this post, I'd rather explain my theory for why this book is so divisive. It's about broken promises. Only implied promises, not explicit ones; but broken nevertheless. Compare these two situations. At the end of The Way of Kings, readers were implicitly promised: 1) That Kaladin would join with Dalinar and help him continue his duty on the Shattered Plain. 2) That Dalinar would bring the Vengeance Pact to an end, or at least make great strides in doing so. 3) That Shallan and Jasnah would reach the Shattered Plain and start interacting with the other cast. 4) That Szeth would be sent after Dalinar, and thus come into conflict with Dalinar and Kaladin. 5) That Adolin and Shallan would begin courting. All of these were promised, and all of these promises were fulfilled in Words of Radiance. (Well, Jasnah got a bit lost along the way, but these sorts of plot twists are perfectly acceptable.) Now compare this to what happened in Oathbringer. At the end of Words of Radiance, readers were implicitly promised: 1) That Kaladin would rush to Hearthstone and either avert the crisis or deal with its aftermath. (Turns out, there was no crisis, and he was in Hearthstone for all of about five minutes. Somewhat anticlimactic.) 2) That Shallan would interact further with the Ghostbloods and we would learn more of their means and motivations. (This did not happen.) 3) That Jasnah would join up with some of the other characters, armed with important new information from the highspren and/or Hoid. (Jasnah did rejoin, but not so much the "new information" thing.) 4) That Navani and/or Shallan would plumb the secrets of Urithiru. (Marginal success here. We the readers know almost nothing more about Urithiru than we did a book ago, but they did do some plumbing.) 5) That Dalinar would learn more of the Knights Radiant, including the reason for the Recreance. (This happened, but whether or not it happened satisfactorily probably depends on each individual reader's satisfaction with the given explanation for the Recreance. 6) That Adolin and/or team Dalinar would suffer some consequences from Sadeas' murder. (This did not happen.) 7) That Moash would join the Diagramists. (This did not happen.) 8) That Bridge Four would continue on the path to squire-hood/Radiance. (This happened, and in spades. Probably the only out-of-the-park home run on the list, IMHO.) Well, there were a number of other promises as well -- I for one feel rather annoyed about what happened with Eshonai and don't feel that Venli is at all an acceptable replacement -- but for convenience I've only listed the main promises about the main cast. When you compare the 100% promise-completion-rate from The Way of Kings with the 25-50% completion rate of those promises made at the end of Words of Radiance, it's not surprising that plenty of readers aren't as happy with Oathbringer as they were with the previous book(s). How happy you are with Oathbringer probably depends on how happy you were with the arcs we got instead. For instance, I was actually fine with Kaladin's nonexistent Hearthstone arc...but I can totally sympathize with the readers who feel that Oathbringer didn't have as much Kaladin-being-awesome as they anticipated.

Oathbringer spoilers:

Ooh I want to die too! A Joe in the Bush. My case against Joe is threefold. First, most of his posts have been in RP. While I appreciate RP and it’s quite elegant, especially his, Joe’s tendency to put characters dying and potential in-game information into his posts makes it very difficult to discern his motives. Also, he’s been portraying some of the characters in his RP doing some very anachronistic activities, such as having the very fine dinner Olaf was having turn into an Uno game. This is likely a way of sending secret messages to certain players, and I would like him to tell us which players are secretly being signaled. Otherwise, the whole thing looks fishy. Second is his PM behavior. While I’ve made an effort to include Joe in every PM I’ve made in this game, he has yet to respond to one of them except a brief interruption to correct a grammatical mistake. This suggests to me that Joe is playing hard-to-get, and doesn’t want to reveal his intentions in front of a large group of people. However, he’s contacted me in an individual PM, so he’s clearly not incapable of speech in PMs. I’d like to know what he’s planning, which is secretive enough so that he can’t voice his concerns in front of a large group of people, but then he suddenly finds his voice when talking one-on-one. But of course he never talks about plans, just reports on actions and rules questions. And that’s all he’s been doing in my house doc too. Speaking of my house doc, he’s in it, but I never see him talking about how much he wants to betray us, and I don’t think he even sent in an action last cycle. He’s not even listed under the members of our house despite being in our doc, which may be a GM error, but I think a doc-spying role is a greater possibility. I didn’t mean to out Joe like that, but I definitely would like an explanation for why he’s been snooping around in PMs and docs, and I think revealing a possible role he might hold is a small price to pay for the information we might gain if he responds. Third and finally, he seems to know information others don’t have access to. For instance this post Shows how Joe seems to get important info about who is attacked and killed before the rest of us do. And that’s dangerous, because think of all the information he could be holding back from us as we speak. Sorry Joe, but you definitely look the most suspicious right now, and I think you deserve immediate lynching attention, no matter what house you or anyone else may be in. @A Joe in the Bush, care to respond to these accusations?

I'm not sure you want to do that. Have the rabbit hole itself: September 2nd(Side Discussion): [OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD November 19th: [OB] A certain character needing to be broken enough to become a radiant December 2nd: [OB] Adolin's breaking December 3rd: [OB] An argument for becoming a Stoneward December 4th: [OB] The problem with Adolin January 24th: [OB] Adolin, a potential Edgedancer? Several Times between Pages 4-15: [OB] Mayalaran At least Three Times, but I'm not searching 96 Pages: [OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion Go and have a read, maybe two. If you still feel there's something to discuss, please do.

I don't like Adolin playing "dressing up" and I still think those scenes exist mostly because Brandon thought they were comical and he wanted to add some humor to otherwise grim part of the narrative, but I recently read someone (not myself) argue Adolin focusing so much on fashion, when everything else is going wrong, is mostly him holding on to familiar things. He goes in line with his second viewpoint chapter where the smell of the stables was something familiar he could hung up onto despite being very distressed over Sureblood. Wearing nice clothes, sewing himself clothes, these may have just been comical scenes written to relief the tension, but these may have also been subtle ways Adolin's character has used to regain a semblance of normality in a world he does not recognize. The party with the fancy suit, I think it was more Adolin remembering his teenage years, then anything else. When Adolin mentions of how someone's clothes speaks of its personality, Shallan asks him what happened to his fancy suit. Adolin responds he didn't fit him anymore... I always thought this was an odd response, but with the above explanation, it makes more sense. Adolin no longer is the fop he once was: he tried once last time and it wasn't him anymore. I think this other person may have put the finger onto something.

I'll level with you, Oathbringer was just a little bit underwhelming. I would even go as far as to say that it is currently the weakest installment in the Stormlight Archive. But that's more because the first two books set the bar really, really high. Oathbringer was still an excellent read. I would not agree with the claim that it lacked character development, though I might agree that it had less character development than either of the previous two books. It's really hard to pace a book in the middle of a series (Well of Ascension, anyone? Although seriously the ending makes up for the pacing in the middle). It also doesn't help that I feel OB had a lot more hype than the last two. And as Hoid once said, expectation is the soul of art. So yeah. Even if I did not feel Oathbringer was quite as good as the last two, I'd still definitely rate 5/5.

Choosing to let somebody kill the person you've promised to protect is not the same thing as failing to protect the person you've promised to protect. Kaladin was incapacitated. Morally it's no different than if he were physically restrained from intervening. And just because I like circles: the way you can tell it's no different is that it didn't do any damage to his bond. Put another way: it's not that Kaladin hesitated, whether because he wasn't sure whether killing Moash to save Elhokar was the right thing to do or for some other reason. He was unable to intervene at all because in that moment his brain was broken. Put yet a third way: "Didn't he basically let Elhokar die?" No. He failed to save him, which is different from letting it happen. PS: Small nitpick: "should have" is a thing, and "should've" is a thing. "Should of" is not a thing.

Skybreakers be like

Looks like some people didn't see the announcement, so to clear up any confusion: you can find out more about the new Worldhopper Accounts, including exclusive content and subscription prices, at the following link. www.17thshard.com/forum/worldhopper

IMO you have completely ignored the best evidence to this, the one piece of evidence that ties it all together and confirms it without a doubt. Now, to be fair, it's kind of easy to miss, but it's there if you're looking for it!! Here:

This phrasing is a little misleading, but when Brandon talks about writing (I'm mostly thinking about Writing Excuses here, but I know some of his BYU lectures are online and I expect he uses similar vocabulary there) he talks a lot about being aware of "what promises are you making to the reader" and the importance of fulfilling those promises in a way that's satisfying but not necessarily what the reader expects. There's a significant overlap between Sharders and Writing Excuses listeners, so I expect that's how the term came to be used that way here.

There's 1 WoB containing "Tai-Na," 4 with the "Greatshells" tag, and 17 containing "Greatshell." They don't tell us much. Have no fear Calderis. Oh wait.. have a little fear.

I think we have no choice but to take Nohadon literally. Due to their constant exposure to stormlight and crem, the average Rosharan is invested enough to linger in the cognitive realm for several hours before passing on to the Beyond. They spend these hours literally dining with the Nightwatcher. Seconds after death, they are whisked across Shadesmar to the cognitive version of the Valley, where the Nightwatcher hosts a never-ending dinner party. Think of it like the Mad Hatter's tea party, but with a creepy lovecraftian demigod instead of Johnny Depp.

I don’t know about you, but this topic has literally evolved into the greatest thing I have ever seen.

AG4/AN1 - Night 12: Smoke The Man in Sage Clothing sat happily, balanced on the tippity top of the gallows. He was whistling, whittling, whistling as he whittled a piece of wood. He had evaded the villagers the previous night, and though they had made valiant attempts to keep him under house arrest, no house could contain him. Odium had granted him powers beyond their wildest dreams. He had been sad to see Kharsis die; It had been his intent to keep him alive as long as possible. He was fun, he played the game, not like all the others. But, what Odium commanded, the Man carried out. And so, Kharsis had gone up in flames. He was a little annoying, anyway. “Well, looks like we’re out of options.” Crocodile said, looking around nervously. “We’ve just gotta kill that guy over there, now.” “I think we should kill him too.” The Zebra muttered. “Just look at him, up there, smiling, whistling. We know he’s evil. And he’s giving me the creeps.” “He is the last one left.” the Chameleon noted, speaking up for once. “Lets get him!” The Man in Sage Clothing shook his head, giggling softly. No noose could catch him. No blades could touch him. The few villagers remaining could never hope to overpower him. But still they rushed at him, holding assorted weapons and other such cutlery. Foolish villagers. One of them took out a spear, and threw it at The Man in Sage Clothing. Laughing, he raised a finger, shaking it at them. Light flowed from the pack on his back, caressing him, flowing around him, filling him. He inhaled Light, drinking deeply of its power. His eyes glowed with it, the Light, a fiery strength. He grinned. He pointed his finger. Light snapped out from his hand, striking the spear mid-flight, and it turned to smoke in the air. More spears flew, but met the same fate as the first, each dissolving into smoke before they ever touched the Man in Sage. The air quickly grew thick, the villagers coughing, the air reminiscent of how it had been the night before. The Man in Sage was cackling now, laughing madly, his eyes brighter than ever. Light surrounded him. The villagers stood back, frightened by the man, befuddled by the smoke, unsure what to do next. “This is true power!” The Man screamed at them, watching them flinch backwards as he stepped fowards. “This is the power of Hatred! This is the Light of Odium!” Smoke curled up from the ground around the Man, as he let his powers loose, laughing bloodcurdlingly, mad with power, eyes dilated, lips pulled back across his teeth in a mad snarl, teeth bared in a wild grin. His eyes were wide with a psychotic blaze, and Light poured out from them. Slowly, the light faded, drawing back into the pack, dissipating into the air, leaving the man who had been holding it. The smoke ceased to pour from the earth, instead hanging heavy in the air, tainting it, painting the landscape a darker shade. The Man stood, his laughter slowly dying, fading away. “You failed. You can’t kill me.” He shook his head, his mad grin still stretched across his face, his eyes still wild. “You could try again another day,” He said, chuckling, “If you make it through the night.” All credit to Sage Kangaroo for the writeup. Sage Kangaroo was lynched. He was a Elsecaller. Vote Count Fuchsia Ostrich (1): Mauve Crocodile Sage Kangaroo (1): Fuchsia Ostrich, Pearl Chameleon Night 12 has begun. It will end in 24 hours, on the 21st February at 10pm GMT. Player List 1. Amethyst Scorpion - Villager-turned-Bondsmith 2. Azure Mouse - Sympathiser Worldhopper 3. Amber Vulture - Villager 4. Charcoal Hyena - Cannoc - Villager 5. Chartreuse Penguin - Villager 6. Coral Swan - Elyle - Village Lightweaver 7. Cream Tuatara - Villager 8. Emerald Falcon - Aldrick - Villager 9. Fuschia Ostrich 10. Indigo Weasel - Village Elsecaller 11. Ivory Dragonfly - Nolan - Village Bondsmith 12. Magenta Albatross - Sympathiser Windrunner 13. Mauve Crocodile 14. Melon Dingo - Quentisan - Village Edgedancer 15. Mint Heron - Kharsis - Villager 16. Onyx Flamingo - Squawk - Village Lightweaver 17. Opal Lion - Villager 18. Oxblood Beagle - Jai - Village Willshaper 19. Pearl Chameleon 20. Plum Rhinoceros - Villager 21. Quartz Zebra 22. Saffron Iguana - Emalia - Village Lightweaver 23. Sage Kangaroo - Elsecaller 24. Salmon Meerkat - Village Bondsmith 25. Sapphire Elephant - Sympathiser Skybreaker 26. Scarlet Octopus - Village Edgedancer 27. Sunburst Toucan - Vanna - Village Windrunner 28. Taupe Gecko - Villager 29. Turquoise Gorilla - Village Dustbringer 30. Violet Axolotl - Villager

I kinda disagree that Adolin brings Shallan stability. Does he make her happy? Yes but only one part of herself. It has already been mentioned in the thread that Veil and Radiant are just as important to Shallan's identity as the "Shallan" that Adolin has fallen in love with. Brandon Sanderson himself has stated that they would all have one identity in the Spiritual Realm, and both Radiant and Veil have traits that were seen in Shallan before she had her whole identity crisis in Oathbringer. In my opinion, Adolin just loving one part of herself is going to lead to more problems for her. I'm not trying to go against the Adolin and Shallan pairing, I mean it is completely possible that he will learn love all three parts of herself, but as of now, his doubt on being able to love all three during their talk before the marriage doesn't make things look good.

Hello, welcome! Don't eat the cookies!

Agreed. I think our only opportunity to have seen him thus far would have been Sixth of the Dusk if my timeline is right. Other than that it is possible for the back five of Stormlight and I would absolutely love to see him and Lift together negotiating a food trade. Edit: How rude of me.. Welcome!

I really am forced to side with RShara shooting down theories this time. Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the best one. Whilst we Sharders often don't abide by that law, we really should in this case. From Oathbringer, we know that Melishi and Co. somehow did something to the Parsh/Voidbringers, and that whatever they did likely involved BAM in some way. They probably imprisoned her in Gavilar's gem or something, but that's a different discussion for a different time. However, what we don't know is whether or not the Nightwatcher was even a Bondsmith spren (though, don't get me wrong, it's likely), and even if we did, we don't know which spren Melishi was bonded to. What I'm saying is that the theory makes a lot of assumptions that don't need to be made, especially given the information we already have.

Hey. You know Syl has a physical form in Shadesmar...

Me trying to convert my friends and family to the Cosmere:

I made this one a looooong time ago (though I did steal the idea from someone else who did a similar one for GRRM):