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I just finished reading Oathbringer and I had some strong feelings about the resolution of the love triangle and my girlfriend suggested that I go on this forum and read the discussion going on here. Before I start reading this thread I just want to share my quick thoughts about the romance plot. I also want to say that my english isn't my first language so I can't articulate words and form sentences (in a way that makes sense) as easily as most of you so sorry in advanced for my bad grammar! Basically my problem is that I'm confused as to why this love triangle exists in the first place. What purpose does it serve? What does Kaladins feelings for Shallan add to his character development? Why add all the foreshadowing between Shallan and Kaladin only to have Shallan marry Adolin so quickly at the end? I feel like if you take Kaladin away then the issues with Shallan would still be the same. Adding him to the mix only frustrates me as a Kaladin fan. If someone here could give me some insight that would be great. I wasn't expecting a Kaladin and Shallan pairing in the end but I was expecting (or maybe hoping) for Shallan and Adolin to split so Shallan could figure herself out before committing herself to a relationship with anyone. I think Shallan even making a decision at all is what bothers me. I do prefer Kaladin and Shallan since they are my two favourite characters, and because this pairing is different from the typical male royalty the main female characters seem to always get paired up with in Brandons books. I certainly do not mind Shallan and Adolin though, I just wish their relationship was written better in a away that convinces me that they are good for each other but this book doesn't do that in my opinion. I don't think they're developed enough as a couple for them to get married. I don't want to read about Adolins perfect hair or his strong but gentle arms give me something more! Maybe I'm asking for too much, I don't know. I guess this is one of the reasons why I'm bothered by their early marriage. I don't think there's enough emotional depth and I think too much of their relationship is purely based on physical attraction. To be honest I hope this isn't the end of the romance plot, something about it just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe I'll feel better about this book once books 4 and 5 are out and we know why things happen the way they happen, but for now I don't feel satisfied with the way things are going. This might be a little off topic but why do these arranged marriages that happen in Brandons books always work out? Laral was my second choice for Kaladin, and I was hoping for them to maybe rekindle old flames but she seems to be ok with her marriage with someone as scummy as Roshone. I would go deeper and share more of my thoughts but I'm not confident enough in my writing ability. Sorry for the rant. This probably doesn't add anything new to the conversation here so sorry about that, I just wanted to share my thoughts as a fellow fan of this series. I still really loved this book even though this one sub plot wasn't really satisfying to read. Hopefully everything I've written makes sense and sorry if it didn't. Alright, now it's time for me to dive into this thread!

For so long I was afraid of this massive thread ; then someone referenced it elsewhere and it caught enough of my attention as to make me consume the last 10 pages. And... wow. There was so much there I had not seen, things that I find so fascinating. Especially all the symbolism surrounding The Girl Who Stood Up, but also the analysis (I think it was @Dreamstorm ?) of Adolin's thoughts toward Shallan and Kaladin. It got me so excited! I admire you guys for your dedication to dissect these texts and characters! It also gave me food for thought, as much about the books themselves as about my own opinion/preference on the matter. During WoR I really enjoyed Shallan and Adolin's romantic storyline. Then the chasm sequence happened and... storms, from that point, Shalladin became my guilty pleasure. I can't tell how much of my inclination comes from an objective "they fit together, no other character would be as good for them as the other one, they are clearly endgame" and a completely subjective basic fangirly "omg the two mains together i ship iiiit". But at the same time, I still appreciate Shadolin scenes and a part of me understands how the marriage might be a sustainable development for both characters. I think it was a few pages back that you discussed the importance of Shallan making the choice of getting married. I agree with both points of view: yes, it can be seen as a hurried band-aid solution for Shallan to keep her human anchor in order to not confront her deep personal problems (+ the "going further in their relationship" part), but it is still a decision, a step forward in the way that she thinks she knows what she wants, and she takes it. (But then, why not show the wedding ? Even through a secondary character's POV, in order for the scene not to feel redundant with Dalinar and Navani's own ceremony...) As for the love triangle, it could be interpreted as a means to show Shallan's bewilderment. So many things can happen in book 4, and since Shallan's issues won't magically disappear no matter what happens, I would like to think that her marriage is not doomed and that it can provide new and interesting situations for her to discover some of the answers she lacks. Furthermore, I am not sure Shallan could handle things better on her own, since that's what she has already been doing since the beginning of the series. Maybe marriage will bring her and Adolin closer and help her deal with her baggage? Sure, their relationship doesn't have the healthiest foundations but this is not to say that it will stay this way. Just as Shallan and Kaladin's relationship would not nearly be the same without the chasm scenes, a lot can happen in the following book(s) plot-wise that can drastically alter Shallan and Adolin's dynamic, for better or worst. There is a lot of holes in this approach; hell, even as I am not really convinced by it, so much is left in the dark. Even if Shallan liking Kaladin could be justified as a way to illustrate her fragmentation, why make Kaladin like Shallan? And why not show the wedding? PS: I see I am not the only one who chose today to manifest myself for the first time! ( @Peanut English is not my first language either so it may not be worth much coming from me, but hadn't you said anything, I don't think I would have picked up on it!)

I'v been following this thread since the beginning, but haven't really felt a need to post as everyone has pretty much covered my thoughts. But at this point I want to say that @Peanut perfectly encapsulates what I've been thinking to myself, this whole romance and "love triangle" just make zero sense. Why bring in Kaladin? Why have these elements of foreshadowing and symblism (some are certainly open to interpretation, but many are pretty obvious) if there's literally no payoff? I was fine with Adolin and Shallan going into OB but having read it, I just feel like my emotions have been toyed with for no reason. Also, @SLNC pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole Shadolin thing, If I have to sit through chapters of Shallan being all lovey dovey and swooning over Adolins arms I'm going to go nuts, please no. And this thought terrifies me because I loved Shallan up until OB. I guess I'm just a little lost right now too. Sorry for the long winded post everyone, I've really enjoyed this thread and all of your insight. Felt it was a good time to finally jump in with my own thoughts

Hi @Peanut, @GarrethGrey, @Seize . Really great English. I understood you easily. I admire all who know more than one language. Post as much as you like; long or short it does not matter. Very interesting to read. Thank you. For me this falls flat because Shallan is certainly hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin tells Shallan about killing Sadeas. This is the worst thing he has ever done. This was his biggest secret. He murdered someone, covered it up, lied to everyone and then he tells Shallan. She accepts him. Shallan does not tell him about her secrets. I see Shallan and Adolin's relationship as very imbalanced. I was rereading the chasm scene. Just a small part and I was shocked that Kaladin reflects about Shallan seeing her mother die in front of her. I had it in my head that Shallan told Kaladin all about her childhood but nothing about her mother. I thought she was blocking it out so she hadn't told him. But actually she told him everything she remembered. I don't think he knows she killed her mother because that is something she had forgotten, but she told him everything else. In the end he admired her. He respected her. He thought of her as a survivor. This warms my heart. This is not a part of Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Shallan is still hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin does not know the real her. It makes me very disappointed that they are married now.

To be fair, no one IRL calls me Lyn, so....

That's from Oathbringer (the book) right after Dalinar returns Oathbringer (the sword) to Ialai and learns that Amaram is to be the new Highprince Sadeas. Daliar's actual reaction was to have his feelings hurt and leave abruptly. Here's what he should have said: "Storms, Amaram, you've figured it out! You may be the first to ever figure that out! Would you like a... I don't know, a ribbon? A pat on the head? Both of my sons are pretty bright, you see, so I don't actually know what the customary reward is for a slightly slow child who has managed to solve a riddle of middling difficulty. Yes, I have done terrible things. I have killed and burned and ended innocent lives the length and breadth of Alethkar. And in so doing, I have amassed power and prestige which I have no intention of giving up now. It's all true. You want to talk about what morality is and isn't, Meridas? Morality isn't a footrace. You don't get extra points for being less vile than the next man. When we die, the being who weighs our souls isn't going to compare the reading to a ledger of those who came before. I am disgusted by the man I was, but I will use him. I will use his reputation and his ill-gotten gains to stop other people from falling to his level, if I can. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, maybe just a fool. But I am too busy trying to save the world to worry about that just now. "Enjoy your new title, and your shards. Enjoy swinging around the corpse of a being once bonded to a better person than you will ever be." (Mostly I hate it when people treat "you're a hypocrite!" like a super-duper sick burn. Essentially they're saying "I accept your stated position on what is right and wrong, and rather than debate that, I am going to point out that you don't live up to your standards either." I think hypocrisy might actually be morally neutral! Whatever bad thing you're doing is bad, but saying it's bad doesn't make it worse.)

<Vasher singing> Shashara Do you want to make a Shardblade? We can do it after meals VaraTreledess is worried too But I've got a plan for you You could be better than Yeseteel! You used to be the best Scholar And now you're not I wish you'd get back to work! Do you want to make a Shardblade? It doesn't have to be a Shardblade? <Shashara> Go away! <Vasher> Don't be a jerk... Do you want to make a Shardblade? Or make another trip to Roshar I've made these statues too They've got bones and glue I think that the'll go far! (Calling them Phantoms!) I've been kind of boring While I win this war Just watching the Lifeless fall! (One, two, three four, five, six, seven!) <Nightblood> Hey Vasher I know you're out there It's boring in this sheath Shashara said I'm like a man And I have a plan, just listen to it please? We only have each other It's just you and me What are we gonna do? Do you want to draw a Shardblade? ... I'll just be over here, hanging my head in shame.

AG4/AN1 - Day 1: Sunrise Sherrah watched the sunrise, bloodred through the smoke of the fires. The fires encircled the mountain, now, and there had been no Windrunners to the mountain for nearly a year. “Once upon a time, a village called Rennan stood on a mountain,” she said softly to herself. “The world had fallen, and yet that one light remained, surrounded by the growing darkness.” Cries came from nearby. “Murder! The blacksmith’s been murdered!” Sherrah bit at her lip. Not a good sign. “And even within the town itself, darkness began to stir...” Thank you for subscribing to Roshar Reporting! Expect to see daily reports soon, however I am currently busy hiring a new editor thanks to some unexpected money. I have heard some rumours about some interesting activity, so it'll be great content. But for now, see you in the next edition of Roshar Reporting. Anniversary Game 4 has begun. Your main accounts should now have received the username and password for your anonymous accounts, which will contain your role and alignment information. As a reminder, whilst you are allowed to claim to be a player, you may not prove that you are who you claim to be, whether through information only you could know, or any other device you think of. Day 1 will last for 48 hours, until Monday 15 January at 10pm GMT. Player List: 1. Amethyst Scorpion 2. Azure Mouse 3. Amber Vulture 4. Charcoal Hyena 5. Chartreuse Penguin 6. Coral Swan 7. Cream Tuatara 8. Emerald Falcon 9. Fuschia Ostrich 10. Indigo Weasel 11. Ivory Dragonfly 12. Magenta Albatross 13. Mauve Crocodile 14. Melon Dingo 15. Mint Heron 16. Onyx Flamingo 17. Opal Lion 18. Oxblood Beagle 19. Pearl Chameleon 20. Plum Rhinoceros 21. Quartz Zebra 22. Saffron Iguana 23. Sage Kangaroo 24. Salmon Meerkat 25. Sapphire Elephant 26. Scarlet Octopus 27. Sunburst Toucan 28. Taupe Gecko 29. Turquoise Gorilla 30. Violet Axolotl Rules:

As I've stated before, I love Taravangian, and hate Amaram, and here's the difference to me, because it's well beyond the level of Kaladin's squad. Taravangian believes that the Radiants can't win, that annihilation is is inevitable, so the best option is to salvage what you can no matter the cost so that something survives. Amaram and thee Sons of Honor are the exact opposite. They believed that the Heralds were honest and the desolations had ended, and were willing to set off an apocalypse that in their belief was unnecessary for the express goal of returning the Heralds, and the power Odium the church. One is trying to mitigate damage to preserve a remnant of humanity. The other is trying to knowingly kill the majority of the world's population in an attempt to reshape the world how they want.

If Shallan and Adolin's romance is themed around the concept of accepting your SO as they are, then why is it that Adolin still has no idea about what the real Shallan is like? If this is the theme, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there's still half the marathon to run in this romance arc for them both?

I wish I could give you multiple upvotes for that. I wasn't aware that BS has actually read the feedback on portraying mental health disorders until now. (BTW, that reddit post was changed recently so maybe that's another reason for missing it in the first place) This WOB reinforces an older thought that Radiant is the one that 'does what Shallan doesn't want, but it's what is socially acceptable' aka 'what the world wants her to be' and Veil is the one that 'does what Shallan wants, but it's not socially acceptable' aka 'who she wants to be'. So this reinforces that what we interpret as Shallan, at the end of OB, is indeed personaShallan aka 'who she should be'. Also, this distinction she has made of herself is why she pushes 'unaccepted parts of her thoughts onto Veil'. Also, we can now argue that when Adolin squeezes her hand he picks the one that Shallan 'should be' and not 'who she wants to be' (the one that stands up, whom Wit was trying to re-enforce with his advice and 'hat'). I'm not sure where you are trying to go here with this, so let me remind you that feminism isn't about what 'appears as a strong woman' necessarily but giving that freedom of independent choice to all women, without regards to social 'norms' and standards. Having Adolin chose who Shallan 'IS' is effectively stripping the choice from Shallan herself. To make the matters worse, because she is mentally incapable of deciding for herself at this point, she should've first resolved her identification problems and then, and only then, decide to get married.

Shallan doesn’t know who she is, what she wants to be, or her place in the world...but she knows her heart and mind in whom she ought to marry? Yeah confidence inspiring. I believe it’s been said on this thread-Shallan is very self-centered and a survivalist . This marriage isn’t about her love for Andolin it’s about him giving her a sense of reality. He for now is her anchor. Will she still love him when she is healed?

I thought it would be fun to post memes of how the shard currently makes you feel here. My reaction when I logged in today

I haven't posted on this thread for a while now. So, here's one.

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I was trying to say that it was my reading not that it could not be read any other way. I read that Shallan shared a secret and it was not a big one. With Kaladin she told him things she had never told anyone else and that she still has not told anyone else. (Maybe she talked to Wit about the same things.) With Adolin she told him that she pretends she is other people and that she could not decide who she should be. I think why she does this is much more important than the fact that she does it. I took this as a step forward in their relationship but a very small step. My problem is not that I think Shallan will never share more. My problem is that she married Adolin without sharing more. I think Shallan's issues are so serious that they needed to be resolved before she got married. Also we know she thinks of herself as a monster. She is hiding this from Adolin. I think it is possible that she does not tell him because she fears he will reject her. Your post was about accepting the real person. I think Adolin has not accepted Shallan's real self because she is hiding her real self from him.

Hi, so this is the first time I looked at the forum area, I have Elantris, Stormlight Archives, Mistborn (all of them) Warbreaker, and the Reckoners. I have managed to get multiple of my friends to read Mistborn, the Reckoners, Warbreaker, Stormlight Archives, and Elantris. If anyone could tell me where the best place on these forums is fro sharing theories about the Cosmere please let me know. Also, if anybody knows who the people on the inside cover of Oathbringer are, please let me know that as well.

Rules clarifications: 1. Anonymous accounts are restricted to posting only in the Roleplaying Forum, but must not be used outside the thread of the game the are allocated to. 2. Anonymity must be maintained in the spec/dead docs to reduce the chance of accidental leaks, and to ensure that post game activity voting is carried out fairly. 3.. Day turns will run for 48 hours, and will be followed by a 24 hour night cycle. New Rules Clarifications: 1. The game will start on a day cycle, which will end in 48 hours, at 10pm GMT on the 15th. 2. PMs may be sent during both Day and Night turns, provided an Edgedancer remains alive. 3. In addition to providing PMs, each night, the Edgedancer may send an anonymous message to the GMs to be included in the following cycle’s writeup. 4. There are now a number of pinch hitters for this game. If players are not active for a full cycle (a consecutive day and night cycle, in either order), they will be replaced with a pinch hitter, unless the list of pinch hitters has been exhausted. It will not be announced that the holder of an anonymous account has been replaced.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. At this point, trying to convince someone who takes such a drastically opposite reading of the text seems like an exercise in futility until the author gives us more to go on. I think many of us posting here feel that we're contributing to find textual support for our interpretations, and we like to post it here to build our case. But none of that is really going to matter. You've accepted the reading that you want, and no new evidence to the contrary will matter. But I thank you for sharing your views none the less. I like to think that I am open to proceeding into book four with the possibility that all Adolin and Shallan need do is work through her remaining identity issues and be happy with each other as a married couple. But I'm also open to the alternative. I think it would be interesting to rehash some of this after book 4, and see who's reading of the text of OB turned it to be more accurate. Not hammer home who was right or wrong, but to discuss what about Brandon's writing of the text lead one group to the wrong conclusions, and another to the right conclusions. Why was this phrase taken as foreshadowing? Why did this scene play opposite to how the author intended. I find those conversations pretty fascinating.

I had to read Count of Monte Cristo in order to get my mom to read Way of Kings.

There certainly isn't much space in Shallan's thoughts for Adolin himself (or his well-being outside of what is useful to Shallan). Her two main motivations for jumping through with the marriage are sex (she's positively horny by the end of OB... it's probably not going to last) and anchoring Shallan so she can stay away from facing her old truths. She told Adolin about her fracturing but that's not something she ever tried to hide from herself - in context of her mental health the truths she tells others are meaningless in comparison to what she has to accept herself.

Yeah, she's treating Adolin as an anchor to keep Shallan as her dominant personality. It's not character development, it's a regression.

It is remarkably satisfying to catch and ban spambots before they've had a chance to annoy anybody into reporting their posts.

A little while back I created a simple in character storytelling/rp & drinking game for D&D and played it with a couple of groups I run. (I don't drink, but characters in the world do and I've found the game can lead to some fun roleplaying.) In universe it uses a set of stones with dwarvish runic letters carved onto a flat side, but in practice I just used numbers or a set of very simple cards. Some of my players made a proper set and gave them to me as a Christmas present 0_o.

For me, it has to be the entire conversation between Hoid and Shallan in chapter 68. Particularly this line: "Yes, yes. Aim for the sun. That way if you miss, at least your arrow will fall far away, and the person it kills will likely be someone you don't know." Thanks, Wit. I appreciate you.

Totally think you are right about both of those points. I'm currently out of upvotes, but will give you one later, nice catch. Looking at the coppermind page for Shardblades I couldn't help but notice this: Elhokar's shardplate has an incredible cod-piece. Holy crap, I know the dude was paranoid, but that seems like overkill. It's like a second helmet.

When Wit is talking to Shalam on Kholinar for the first time (in the tavern), he says something that caught my ear: As I do not have the book now, I will not write it verbatim Me and Wisdon are, often, at cross purposes. And I still did not learn the language she speaks It looked to me that he was talking about a person (or shardic entity... you get my drift). Do we know about a Wisdom Shard?

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardblade 1) On the main shard blade page it says that the "Wider than average - cleaver-like" shardblade that Dalinar had and gave up in WoR was "Talenel - Unbound" as the "Previous Holder", isn't that very misleading? That blade was never owned or held by Talenel, but people pretended it was. 2) For Talenels Honorblade it says it was stolen by Taravangian, is their citation for that? Thanks.

Hey sharders, I have been thinking about this interaction that happened on reddit and wanted to get your thoughts on it The last time we saw rlain IIRC he was going to try to explain to kaladin what being him felt like and then scene ends. What do you think has happened between then and the end of the book? Do you think Rlain could turn? Do you think maybe he has been busying himself with something else, like maybe the survivors of Neurok? Whats your thoughts?

You shameful, merciless trolls. Making everyone feel like you're special and they're not. I mean with the processing delays and appalling administration even I'm still waiting for MY Worldhopper account to be accessible. Once it is, and I'm more special than everyone, I'll be classy and sophisticated and considerate in enjoying my privilege.

@Peanut @GarrethGrey Well if you're feeling lost, this thread is certainly the right place to have found! If you'd like to read a really well-written summary of what we've been talking about so far, everything from the Shalladin foreshadowing to characterization to other things... this link is your friend!

Venli knew perfectly well what the stormform and the Everstorm were going to bring. She simply made wrong assumptions about what else would happen afterwards. She assumed humans would be destroyed/enslaved, Listeners would be saved, and she would be worshipped as their savior and made their Queen. Unfortunately what happened was a larger scale war started, Listeners were systematically destroyed by the Fused who were meant to save them, and she was turned into a puppet and a servant. Am I okay with her taking Eshonai's place? Not really, but I guess Eshonai was too ideal a Willshaper, so we get a rougher one, less suited for the order to get a clearer view of them. Before OB I would have been deeply unhappy (angry) at the idea of Venli been the Parsh savior, because she didn't deserve to save them after destroying the Listeners, and because the parsh deserved a better leader. However I got a bit of interest in Venli during OB. Basically she achieved everything she wanted...and then she saw that getting all she wanted meant all her dreams and all that was important in her world turning to ash. That is interesting in the sense that you get a good sense of who a person is after they gain all they hoped for...to see it become the bitterest of defeats. Venli didn't crumble, or go the easy road of becoming an arche-typical villain by hurting others to feel better herself. So she gained a smidge of my respect with her actions after she was at the bottom of the chasm. Where she goes from there, we will see.

@Ymawgat I apologize for missing you above posts. You did address some of the same points I did. My bad. I now get what your problem is, and I feel that I am the wrong person to have an in-depth discussion of Eshonai vs Venli. As I said, I am not very interested in either one, but I can see why you would be disappointed in how the story turned out if you like Eshonai a lot (which I guess you do). I am a bit disappointed in how Amaram, a favorite of mine, turned out in OB, and I thus respect those disappointed by other characters in OB.

Brandon said we could pronounce however we like. If I recall correctly, he himself pronounces Kelsier and Vin like you would in english. But in-world, it is french pronounciation.

Here are a couple good memes, for paying users only (cause I've seen way too many stolen memes).

So we’re actually on the same page here, but I just see you as selecting option 1... if parts of Shallan are pushed onto Veil and Radiant (even if Veil and Radiant need additional elements such that Shallan can consider them seperate from her - I get your point on the backstories), that means those parts of Shallan which are pushed onto V/R aren’t present in Shallan. And so the “Shallan” Adolin sees (I can use your language :)) isn’t actually the whole Shallan; it’s whole Shallan minus those aspects she’s pushed aside. Thus when Shallan justifies her choice as “Adolin knows me”, she’s really saying “Adolin knows me minus these things I’ve pushed to V/R”, hence why it rings false to me. This whole thing was awesome to read, and I totally get where you’re coming from. (An aside, I actually thought Part 1 was really strong for them at the time! I was convinced during the sample chapters that they were really going to work it out as I saw their “issues” as things which were easy to address and getting better, ie Shallan not caring about Adolin seeing her hungover as a big step towards letting him see her not putting on an act.) I wish we’d had a stronger ending for them, in the sense of how they choose each other. I was pretty much on board all the way through Part 4 (despite not being sure why we had to go through this whole love triangle - I don’t think we got enough payoff for that if this is the end), but the whole thing felt underwhelming and disappointing because of the way it ended. As I stated (ranted about ) above, it would have been so much better to have Shallan independently “see” herself for herself and realize that self wanted to be with Adolin and not have it be Adolin “seeing” Shallan and then having her suddenly realize she is that person he sees. I obviously have other issues (Kaladin foreshadowing being dropped, the whole point of the triangle for Kaladin’s character development at all, the weirdness at the end surrounding the Shadolin relationship), but this was the big one for me. It just seemed like such a brick being dropped on what, as you said, was a romantic story which I do think got some good development. (About 50 pages back in the thread I actually did a bit like what you did with how Shadolin developed, but got sad at the fact I could envision a strong ending for them which didn’t exist in the book. That wouldn’t remove the other issues involving Kaladin and the arc, but it’s too bad we didn’t get a stronger conclusion. I mean, in the end I decided it wasn’t a conclusion which was why it felt so off, but that’s where my head was at the time - trying to come to terms with taking what we got at face value. And before you say Brandon is cool with me editing as I wish, believe me, if we come to SA4 with a happy marriage between them, I’m going to retcon the OB ending for sure!)

I actually do think I can have it both ways, 100%. I can think based on my reading of the text that there is a real Shallan, who Adolin sees (not chooses) and Veil/Radiant are more fake than real, fake in the sense that their traits are not 100% from Shallan. Shallan invented at least some of their personalities, thoughts, backgrounds, and/or ideas, and so not all of Veil and Radiant are necessary for Shallan to be whole. Some of Veil and Radiant are things that Shallan pushed onto them because she was afraid of/inability to present them in her own core person, so she created alternates in order to present them anyway, and those things Shallan will - I believe - come to realization through her continuing healing process, that it's okay for her to be as she is. That she, Shallan, can drink and have rude manners and be confident, and not have to push it off onto an alter. Things like Veil being darkeyed from a rough background and all the things that come from that, won't be, because Shallan invented those for Veil without having the experience to make that real, and I'll be honest - I rolled my eyes at Veil's "storming lighteyes" comment; an example of something that she puts on like a costume but has no basis to say that's her real experience. So much of Veil is like that - wholesale invented, and though I hope Shallan takes home some hard lessons about how she treats people under her in the caste system from Veil, Veil is in one sense, a costume of a darkeyes that Shallan puts on. She can be treated as a darkeyes when it's useful, when it's convenient for her to grab information, but neither Shallan nor Veil have to actually live as one 100% of the time. Shallan has certainly written real aspects of her personality into Veil and Radiant, and those parts are what I hope she'll take back in the next book or so, but there are elements of Veil and Radiant that she won't and hopefully can't reintegrate. Accepting the real self of another. Their arc goes: 1. Both cheery but lying (by omission) to each other, enjoying each other's company, but too scared of being rejected to be honest with each other. In Part One especially, I was sure Adolin and Shallan were doomed. They both canonically, have lines about fearing that the other will reject them if they know the truth, and not wanting to screw this up, that they both want to make this work. Adolin is afraid to tell anyone the truth about Sadeas, Shallan is afraid to tell anyone about Veil. Part One especially, I was interested to see how Shallan is not terrified about people finding out about the root of her brokenness, her parents' deaths, but the result of that - Veil, and thus, the evidence of her brokenness. Since this is what Shallan is mentally and emotionally occupied with in the beginning of OB, that she talks about Veil to Adolin later in the same book is deeply significant. 2. The weight of the fear continues to press on them. Both do some self-reflection independent of each other, neither forced into it by the other, ups and downs throughout the middle section of the story, stutter-stepping through their doubts. Adolin reflects on killing Sadeas and his own feelings about it. He has doubts about who he is, the kind of man he is, the kind of man he wants to be, whether he is the best one for Shallan combined with his absolute admiration for Kaladin and comparing himself to Kaladin both. Shallan has - wow, just her entire arc about not being sure who she is and what she wants. Veil (I'd say more than Radiant, but I'd be fine with saying both) acts as her version of her doubts, giving her an outlet to seriously consider a legitimate second option in Kaladin. Important that both Adolin and Shallan know that it's Kaladin. The doubts are legitimate and it's worth it to know that their doubts could be relationship-ending. Their doubts mirror each other's. 3. Despite the constancy throughout this book, neither of them act on their doubts. (!!!) 4. In the emotional crux of their arc, in my opinion, the beginning problem of dishonesty is met with honesty. Both of them admit something difficult to each other; the same problem they were occupied with since the beginning. (This is when I knew I'd read the two of them wrong at the beginning, as this is strongly a narrative arc being resolved.) Both of their arcs, having started together, split apart in the middle, and then dovetailed back together at the end. The exact same problems they started with are answered, explicitly. 5. Having reached a new step in their relationship, having learned they can share something difficult with the other, and learning that the other will still accept them with the same affection they did before, the relationship is cemented - at least for book 3. The fear that, if the other sees the real them, will reject them or react badly, is proven false. Told about Veil, the extremely obvious evidence that Shallan is not well, Adolin accepts her just the same, doesn't think she's a monster, doesn't think she's broken; told about murdering Sadeas, Shallan accepts him and doesn't think he's a bad person, or not worth being with. Adolin's doubts about not being as cool as Kaladin to be in a relationship with Shallan, and Shallan's doubts about being too broken and awful to be in a relationship with Adolin; both threads... Constant threads through the whole book... Since the beginning... Are resolved explicitly at the end when they declare after everything they still want to be together. And then they choose to be together.

When the largest identity crisis you've ever had was whether you're a Windrunner or a Skybreaker I still haven't resolved that one

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Yeah... but I don't feel I have to choose between Amaram and Sadeas. They're both terrible people, for different though externally similar reasons, and there are a whole host of characters who are much more moral, compelling, and overall "good" (for a given definition of "good") who I can choose 100 of over either of these men. Saying that Amaram is more morally defensible than Sadeas really isn't saying much.

So, the way Rlain was handled in OB really frustrates me. First of, nobody thinks to ask him about anything, while they are agonizing about how little they know about what is happening to the parshmen, their new capabilities, etc. I mean, what? Even if Rlain can't answer all of their questions, it would have been a very obvious first step to ask for his insights. And as it happens, listener "Songs of..." actually have some clues. Not even to Jasnah, who was so obssessed with parsh history and the bearing that it might have on the present, did it occur to plumb this excellent source of information? Also, Dalinar was so eager to find out why the Parshendi turned on his brother and why they refused any messages after that and until Eshonai's ill-fated parley, preferring to fight a losing war of extermination, - and now he can't even be bothered to ask? And I could understand if the Kholins just simply forgot about Rlain - but Renarin was right there with him, as part of the Bridge Four and simultaneously was an integral part of Dalinar's councils. Also, how could the scholars who have questioned Rlain in WoR possibly forget about him? But there is more - when Bridge 4 had to fight Re-Shepir, one of his people's former, "gods" of legend, I really expected some reaction out of him. Either at the time or afterwards, in his PoV. Nada. And yes, finally, his missing talk with Kal. As to where it is all going, I firmly believe that Rlain will become one of the Bondsmiths, likely Nightwatcher's if she is indeed one of their spren. Something unprecedented needs to happen for anti-Odium side to have a chance - a good chunk of singers needs to ally with humans. And after everything, it will take nothing less than a Bondsmith of their own to make it happen. And no, it can't be a Horneater, for all that Rock does have some Bondsmithy qualities. Horneaters are considered fellow humans by other humans, they have been Radiants in the past, etc. The necessary dynamic and trust aren't there. It has to be a listener because new singers just don't enough life experience to fulfill the role. Rlain's unique position as a bridge between humans and listeners (once he finds out about the escaped refusniks) already pre-disposes him for this task, though admittedly, Eshonai's flashbacks could also introduce somebody else who could do it. And there is another matter - which, I am not sure if it is an oversight or something else - there should be thousands of listener children somewhere. Maybe even tens of thousands. There allegedly were 100K listeners or more before the war and even if they mostly stopped having kids during it - though they had _some_ mateforms among them, so some children must have been conceived during the war as well, all the kids who were young when the war broke out should still be around.

Considering the next book is going to focus pretty heavily on the listeners through Eshonai's flashbacks, and we have a second seemingly dropped thread in the group of listeners that fled Narak... Not sure if Rlain is trying to search for survivors to see if he's really alone... Or what the reason is. But two seemingly dropped threads involving listeners before a book that's going to have them as a major focal point to... I just can't be a coincidence.

Exactly. If we're talking most loathsome person I vote Taravangian. He is a morally degenerate monster who murders children and the most vulnerable of society all for what he envisions as "the greater good". There is no moral event horizon he will ever shy away from, because the ends will always justify the means. But in the end it won't actually matter though, because as Hoid so succinctly stated, "These are the men...well, these are the men who actually change the world. And they terrify me. For men never see as far as they think they do." I think we can trust the experiences of Hoid on this one, perfectly predicting the future is a fool's game. Even Odium, a god whose shard seems especially talented at seeing into the future, has demonstrated a capacity to be occasionally blindsided by events. Using your best guesses of future events to justify throwing away all moral scruples is monstrous. Taravangian is a fantastically written character though, and I love what depth he adds to the story. If we're talking "detracts the most from my enjoyment of the story", then the sad prize goes to Shallan. It's so strange, because I was really impressed how much she grew as an entertaining and likeable POV character between WoK and WoR. The scene where she inspires the night bandits to transform themselves into better people and try to be heroes again is one of my favorites in the whole series. Oathbringer Shallan/Veil is just dull to me though, her character felt like it was regressing and by the end the Veil-centric chapters especially were just a chore to read. It's not just that her character isn't clicking with me though, she was by wordcount% the most prominent POV character if we don't include the flashbacks. This is Dalinar's book Shallan, stop hogging the present time POV spotlight!

While I felt the Lyn-challenging-gender-roles vibe later on in the book, I didn’t read the scene with Shallan that way. For me, it felt like Shallan misinterpreted Lyn’s curiosity, and Lyn’s disappointment afterwards was because Shallan didn’t seem open to questions and just wanted to assume instead of have a discussion. Looking at this from Lyn’s perspective, I thought she was asking (or hoping to ask) how to become a Radiant. At this point in the book, the Radiants are Dalinar (who is too high to be talked to and questioned by a lowly soldier), Kaladin (who is off in Alethkar), Renarin (who comes off as strange to most people), and Shallan. Shallan is a fellow woman which might make her easier to approach, not exactly high enough nahn that Lyn could not have a conversation with her, and Lyn saw the opportunity to have that conversation. But Shallan assumed something different, that Lyn wanted to know if she was still womanly, and was harsh. Lyn would definitely be disappointed that her chance to learn about Radiants was not being met with an open minded Shallan. It’s similar to later on in the book when Lyn meets Kaladin. Yes, she’s challenging gender roles by wanting to be a fighter rather than a scribe, but it seems like she joined Bridge Four in order to become Radiant and was again put off by Kaladin’s indifference and assumptions.

This isn't mine, but it's pretty great: Exact same situation here: (And it's supposed to be landscape...)

This was inspired by the State of the Sanderson and the recent Shardcast on it. Sharders reaction to the timeline. Keepers reaction to the timeline

Maybe Mraize eats maize in preparation for the maze of m(ayonn)aise on the path to Braize--to fight Rayse, the Cosmere to raze. Yeah, sorry...