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I want to question these assumptions about Dalinar and what happened between him and Odium at the end of Oathbringer, before making any speculations about who OC might be. I agree with Melovespie that Dalinar WAS Odium's champion. It was no red herring. Odium had groomed Dalinar from a young age to be an ultimate warrior, slave to his passions, addicted to the Thrill, and so desperate for relief from his spiritual suffering that he would gladly hand over responsibility for his actions to Odium in return for the moral numbness we see Moash descending into. The greatest victory at the climax of OB was Dalinar's ability to resist Odium's influence and refuse to become his champion -- an outcome that Odium had thought was a fait accompli. Dalinar was able to defy this with the help of Cultivation, who, by temporarily taking away the memories of his wife, gave him time to grow as a person and develop the mental and emotional strength to face up to the monstrous things he'd done in the past and take ownership of them. Dalinar saw something familiar in the eyes of OC because he recognised something of himself in them. But that might not literally mean that he recognised his own physical eyes (or the eyes of someone he knew, or was related to). Throughout OB, Dalinar notices the Thrill in the eyes of people he is fighting, and recognises it with familiarity to his own experience. For example, in Kalanor: If it is the familiar effects of the Thrill that Dalinar recognises in the eyes of OC, then it doesn't necessarily follow that Odiums next Champion needs to be someone that Dalinar knows. Furthermore, as Melovespie pointed out, we need to question whether Odium will even be able to choose a new Champion. Recall the meeting between Taravangian and Odium at the very end of OB: This makes clear that Odium cannot choose another champion. Dalinar ensured that Odium's chosen champion (Dalinar) never actually manifested, and so Odium is now compelled to fight as his own champion. Which means that all of this speculation about who might be the (next) champion is entirely irrelevant.

We all know about the Nahel bond between a special type of spren and a Knight Radiant, giving the spren the ability to fully manifest in the physical realm while giving the Radiant two Surges and the ability to take in stormlight on a continual basis to power these surges. In this thread, I speculated about a Gemheart bond, where a spren is captured inside a gemheart and bonds with the host of the gemheart: Human (e.g., Aesudan and Amaram), Parshendi (different spren give different forms), Various gravitation-defying creatures bonded to mandras (chasmfiends, greatshells, skyeels, and most likely thunderclasts), and Fabrials including Soulcasters and Urithiru. Venli appears to have formed a Nahel and a Gemheart bond with Timbre, as well as retaining her Gemheart bond with the Envoy spren to retain her Parshendi form of power. I believe that we'll soon see another dual-bond among Navini, the Sibling, and Urithiru using both the Nahel and Gemheart bonds to tie all three together. There have been many speculating that the Sibling is Urithiru, including my own speculation in the Gemheart bond thread. I want to clarify that the Sibling is not Urithiru but rather the spren that bonds to and powers Urithiru as well as bonding to her bondsmith. If the Sibling's bondsmith abandoned his or her oaths during the Recreance, that may explain why the Sibling and Urithiru have slumbered ever since, awaiting a new bondsmith to return. One of the WoR epithets tells us that only one of the bondsmiths is always with Urithiru, probably because the Sibling bondsmith will need to stay with her spren that will be captured inside Urithiru's gemheart, powering Urithiru. So, what makes me think this bondsmith will be Navani? All primary point-of-view characters have chapter art to denote the chapters which are primarily their own. Even though she'd had minor points-of-view before, Navani got her first primary POV chapter with Oathbringer in only one chapter: Chapter 95, Pieces of a Fabrial. The chapter art representation of Navani appears to be a giant, luminescent gemheart encased in what might be a fabrial: Obviously, one can argue that the fabrial image is perfect for Navani simply because Navani is the goddess of fabrials. But I would argue that this is probably what makes her the perfect choice as the sole Radiant whose bond is both Nahel and Gemheart. Who better to operate the Urithiru fabrial than Navani? Who better to stay with Urithiru than the ostensible Queen of Urithiru? Who better to be another bondsmith than Dalinar's wife?

I find the debate over whether or not Odium can choose another champion to be far from clear-cut. To break it down: Did Odium agree to a contest of champions? - We all seem to agree yes and the text supports this. What was the outcome of the contest? - Option 1: Odium won. I don’t think anyone is arguing this. - Option 2: Odium lost. Since there was no fight, this could be a loss through forfeiture (his champion refused to fight.) We don’t know what benefits humanity should get from a victory in the contest (Stormfather told Dalinar it was “time” but that’s not very specific), though perhaps the one-year time skip is the victory benefit? The other potential consequence for Odium post-loss (if one considers him to have lost) is that he may need to work through agents (as suggested by the Diagram) instead of directly. However he appears to Vargo, so it’s not like he’s banished from Roshar. Overall, there wasn’t much gain to humanity if this was an Odium loss so I find it unlikely Odium is considered to have lost the contest. - Option 3: The contest never started/is on pause. This seems to be what Vargo via the Diagram thinks at least. From the Diagram’s perspective, the contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid. Now is the Diagram correct in this assertion? Who knows. But with this option, it does seem like another champion can be chosen since otherwise the possibility of a contest would be closed. - Option 4: The contest is null and void because Odium’s selected champion refused to fight for him. I think this is what those who are arguing another champion cannot be selected are primarily advocating? I think this is a logical possibility, but I personally find it a little suspect because (a) this isn’t mentioned in the text anywhere and so seems like if we drop the champion possibility in the next book, it will be difficult for readers to figure out why it was dropped and (b) if Odium didn’t have a suitable champion this gives him an easy out - just choose the guy least likely to support him and the contest is null and void. (b) Seems like a large loophole that removes most of the drama of the situation (Odium can easily avoid losing even if he agrees to the contest), doesn’t align with what Stormfather says about how it will be hard to get Odium to agree to the contest and also wasn’t a possibility presented to the reader (either before or after the contest.) So, the way I see it, for the selection of another champion to be off the table, you have to believe either option 2 (Odium lost) or option 4 (contest null and void due to champion’s refusal to fight) occurred. Both of these seem a rather Odium-friendly and anti-climatic way of resolving the “Odium’s champion” plot; in one the consequences of Odium’s loss are very minor and in the other Odium can easily wiggle out of the contest, so his acceptance really meant nothing (and doesn’t align with the fact it was supposedly hard to get Odium to agree to a contest in the first place.) I personally see it as option 3 and the situation right now it like when Adolin chose a duel with Sadeas as his boon but Kaladin’s play for Amaram caused Elhokar to lose the plot; Adolin’s right to the duel was still alive and well but good luck pining Sadeas down to a time and place to get it done. I agree with those (and the Diagram) that say it will be tricky to pin Odium down, but not because the contest is dead, but because it will be hard to find Odium and force him to go through with it.

Adolin doesn't define himself as a general, but as a duelist. He constantly under-evaluates his skills in both leadership and military strategy. The one thing which OB really put into light was to become Odium's Champion, one needed to want it, to succumb to it, to submit to it: one cannot be forced into it. Odium gives you an easy way out, it takes away your guilt, your negative feelings, it gives you justification, it removes you from all responsibility, in exchange for which you become his minion. Now if readers still want to believe Adolin can realistically accept to make this deal, Adolin whom always assume his responsibility into every single failure, Adolin whom always think he is to blame each time something goes wrong or each time he gets a critic, then there isn't much more I can do to convince them of the opposite. I personally find OB literally eliminated all chances of this theory of ever happening: nothing pains me more to see readers are still arguing in its favor. All arguments in favor are, IMHO, extraordinarily weak. He was born under the sign of nine? Really? This is not an argument, one person out of ten was born under the sign of nine: it is meaningless, but if readers want to literally ignore every single aspect of the character to solely focus onto one meaningless quote, then nothing I will say will convince them otherwise. I thought OB put it into a pretty obvious light: the eyes Dalinar recognize were his own: not his son, not his son who's too much like his mother to ever be this beast. Odium's Champion is the anti-Radiant: a broken man (or woman) refusing to reforge himself, a broken man (or woman) whom instead of thriving to better himself despite the hardships is persistently running away from responsibility, whom doesn't want to accept the failure is his. A man looking for an easy way out of a moral conundrum. A man like Dalinar whom could never accept he killed his wife. A man like Moash whom is constantly looking for outside justification as to why he wants revenge so bad, whom is blaming the King and society for his anger. Not a man like Adolin whom is taking in his actions, accepting them and whom is not blaming anyone else for them, not even Dalinar even if this would be the easy way out. After all, who's fault is it they got trapped at the Tower, who's fault is it Sadeas was not dealt with? It was Dalinar's, but Adolin is not the kind of man to push guilt onto someone else: he made his choice and he lives with it. So sorry, but all of those still arguing for Adolin to become the Champion are, IMHO, making false road.

And flashback Dalinar is actually Tonk Fah. Hard to spot, that one.

Not everyone seems to have appreciated PsychoShallan as much as I did, perhaps because I suspect her psychosis is not an arbitrary plot device. What if Shallan's multiple personality issues are because she's seriously corrupted by Sja-anat? The only times we see Sja-anat herself are through mirrors Shallan is looking into (OB pages 634 and then 815-822) and when Shallan's shadow actually becomes Sja-anat, as she nears and hears the Heart of the Revel. Sja-anat is a reflection of Shallan? The bolded, italicized parts above denote where I believe Sja-anat is speaking whereas the unbolded, italicized parts seem to be the Heart of the Revel (Ashertmarn). Twice, she reacts quite differently to Sja-anat than she does to Ashertmarn, both here and on page 731 where she says, "That last one stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring." Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets. Who has more secrets to take than Shallan? So I don't really have any answers here but lots of questions, and I'd love lots of discussions on these or related ideas. I don't think we know enough to have definitive answers yet, but perhaps through discussion we can learn more than we now know. Shallan has always had multiple personalities, but when did they truly start becoming an issue, bleeding into each other and out of control? Was that only in Kholinar or just before? Where has Shallan heard Sja-anat's voice before? Why is Sja-anat so shocked (page 634) when she first sees Shallan in the mirror in the palace? Why is Sja-anat the most feared of all Unmade? Has Sja-anat already corrupted Shallan as she corrupted spren? Is she in the process of corrupting Shallan, hence Shallan not yet giving Sja-anat's corrupted children a home? Is Mishim's story (page 670-676) an analogy of Shallan's crisis, with Mishim shirking her moon duties to be what she is not? Or is the story related in some other way(s)? Starspren? Gemstone constellations? Do wrong-facing shadows always denote Unmade as they do for Odium's Champion? If so, what does that say about Jasnah's shadow attack? If so, what does that say about Aimians? It just seems to me that all of these things are complexly related to each other. I'd love for us to hash out some ideas as to why that may be. ETA: Ash's eyes, I've learned so much from your responses! I've combined and stolen much to come up with an answer, of sorts, that I'm reasonably happy with and excited about, which I describe in this post:

Hey guys here is a post I have been thinking and working on a while so hopefully you enjoy. I have been thinking about the following WoB. Once I read this I wanted to know where those Gemhearts might be settling So I have done some research. On how Storms move materials. The first shows the process of Saltation and Creep which will be the main ways animal corpses (and thereby gemhearts) are going to be traveling during a storm. The second shows how storm surges can deposit and move debris. http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/dustwind.htm https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1306/pdf/c1306_ch6_g.pdf We know the main way these corpses will be traveling is through saltation because Dalinar was almost hit by a boulder in Alethkar. (If someone can provide me the quote I will add it here) Now the main thing that will stop Saltation and Creep would be natural barriers such as mountains and bodies of water that will prevent the winds from continuing to move them along. So I marked two versions of the roshar map. This first assumes that the storms comes directly from the east and moves straight west. Red Highlights natural places that gemhearts would likely collect over time from the wind, Green indicates where they would likely collect due to massive amounts of water draining, and Blue indicates the direction I assume the wind is blowing. I’m sure I missed Spots especially with the green as I could only assume the direction of water drainage based on rivers. Map two operates under the assumption that the start in the bottom left of the map indicates the south pole axis and the lines coming from it represent longitude lines. If so this is where things would collect if the storm moved perpendicular to those lines. Now one interesting thing in both of these maps is that you can see Rira has a natural collection point on both of these maps. And what do we know that Rira has that they use to execute criminals? Greatshells! I wonder if greatshells have such large gemhearts because they have an abundance of corpses they feast on with gemhearts inside them. Just a thought. Now moving on to the next WoB I think that Brandon is referring to Soulcasting mainly here and we know that when gems are used soulcast they crack into smaller pieces and eventually into dust. My question to you guys is, do you think that the storms collect this dust to return it to the pool or does the art of soulcasting send bits of it back to the pool in tiny increments? My current Theory is this. Most of the reclamation of gemhearts i happening in the oceans or large bodies of water. This either happens through A: Greatshells which act as gemstone/heart filters and collect/eat smaller pieces to grow there own to their massive sizes. B: We don't know what is at the bottom of the ocean. Brandon said there is but one tectonic plate on the world so something down there converts them back into there spiritual component then leaks them back through the creatures Thanks for reading Update: I just found this amazing post by @Otto Didact So I am leaning towards the second map at this point though it does bring up an interesting question of if the storm moves slower the further north and south you go or if the storm moves in a way we haven't thought of yet. Though I now notice that the placement of the star does not line up with where his axis is so yeah I need to modify my map a bit and maybe use his map if I get his permission.

When you have a dream about Jasnah being your substitute teacher for history class. (That was a really strange dream. For some reason Jasnah took us to Chuck E. Cheese for a field trip after teaching a lesson on George Washington and Odium sent demonic-looking yellow birds to attack us. After the battle with yellow birds, Jasnah took us to Shadesmar and in my dream the sea of beads had been replaced with those ball pit things. I have no idea what inspired this dream, but it was very vivid and it keeps coming back in my memories.)

This discussion has been happening for the last four years: I never believed in it, I still do not believe in it. Adolin as Odium's Champion is one of those theories which exist mostly because his character has not yet taken up a "task" or a "function" into the narrative. Arguing he would make a twist towards evil merely because he is the only "good guy" not being a "Radiant" is making the unpredictable painfully predictable as, of course, the "nice guy" will fall as no one can be this "nice" and isn't it what "nice guys" always do anyway? I am not saying these reasons are your personal reasons to root for it, but in the end, these discussions always come down to the same points. Adolin is not a Radiant. Adolin turning evil would cause a "reaction" within the main cast. As such, Adolin becoming Odium's Champion is the best possible course of action. I just disagree. I disagree because every single one of those theories basically remove Adolin's character from its agency. They ignore the fact the character we have been reading for three books would never turn on his family nor his loved one: nothing would ever make him turn traitor. Even when his father is dead plain wrong about his decision making, Adolin still supports him, hence to think Adolin would fall for Odium's manipulations is really yearning for his character to be another character entirely. Of course, I agree Adolin in OB was a tad bland, but he is not an empty shelf either: he is loyal, dutiful, responsible. His weaknesses are his inability to put blame onto others, to actively try to work harder when the fault isn't his, his lack of second guessing his father and self-confidence. Nothing which could make him become a monster. Not every single sentence written in the book will be foreshadowing and having Adolin's birth date indicate anything with respect to his character is basically removing him from all agency. What is the purpose of Adolin growing or making a few given decisions if, anyway, he is predestined to become Odium's Champion out of being born within the wrong month of the year? I sincerely do not believe Brandon would use something as cheap as a character's birth date as foreshadowing for a given evil path: not only this is a poor plot twist, it is entirely unsatisfying on a narrative point of view. Of course, Brandon doesn't always write satisfying outcome for his character, but I would be extraordinarily surprised this one tip bit means anything. Dalinar had been chosen as Odium's Champion for a long time: he has been groomed for it since his youth. All Odium had to do was to remind him of the beast he was, to call upon the beast, to seduce it and to give him an easy way out of the guilt he bore towards his own self. Odium offered Dalinar what he yearned: forgiveness by taking away all of his pain. This wasn't the work of a few minutes of interaction, this was the work of decades of pruning Dalinar, shaping him into the monster he was supposed to become. The Dalinar we saw, during the flashback, was exactly what Odium is looking for a: a killer, a beast, a man with no remorse able to torch an entire town just to get personal revenge. Of course, Dalinar had been influenced, pushed farther than he would have gone, but the fact remains Dalinar had been under Odium's thumb for a long time. The same is not true of Adolin. Adolin is not a beast. He would never torch a town to satisfy his personal revenge. He has empathy and personal inhibitions his father just never had: he isn't the kind of individual Odium is looking for. Even if he managed to manipulate Adolin into succumbing to his offers, it would be pointless: Adolin would never become is general. For one, Adolin doesn't even believe he is one. For second, he would never go as far as Odium wants him to go. No. Odium needs someone able to the vilest act in the name of personal revenge and, so far, the only character we have seen, apart from Dalinar, to have this ability is Moash. Yearning for the unpredictable is one thing, yearning for the practically impossible is another thing: not every single living human bodies have the capacity to become Odium's Champion. Adolin just doesn't have it: if he had, he would yearn for the battlefield like his father, he would be mindless of the human cost, he would probably kill his own men in his own battle fury only to blame it on them for having moved too close. Hence, just because he is the one "good guy" not being a "Radiant" still does not make Adolin a candidate. No, this is highly unlikely to change because people do not fundamentally change. People do not make 180 turn onto their personalities: people remain relatively the same, with the same strengths and weaknesses. What people learn is how to use both of them in the most efficient way, but the idea Adolin might change his inner personality because of "outside events" is not holding the road. As I said, he does not have the right "qualities" to be an interesting Champion for Odium: he is not going to develop them because there is some possibility there might be hardship within his relationship with Shallan. I would also severely dispute the "doomed for disaster" argument: some readers have recently liked to find every single sentence they could find in order to make it say Adolin/Shallan were such a bad match they would irrevocably hit a wall. Some other readers are just not giving those arguments anything more than a side glance because they don't feel there is much of an argument to have had. Even if it were to happen, Adolin would still not spontaneously start to develop the right qualities to become Odium's Champion. Why? Because when Adolin is in a bad spot, what does he do? He works harder. If he feels rejected, what does he do? He moves away. Does it hurt? Probably, but Adolin is not the topic of the story, hence we never read what goes on in his head. He is however not going to have a life-crisis over his marriage with Shallan or any other aspects of his life. Adolin is just not the kind of individual which has life crisis: he is just going to keep on doing what he has been doing.

Reminder that Syl is the one who truly knows Kaladin. Is this a hint that he lies to himself and the end of OB? I would like to highlight the fact, that to dismiss his feelings he specifically uses an argument that is so hilariously and hugely false.

Reminder that Syl is the one who truly knows Kaladin. Is this a hint that he lies to himself and the end of OB?

Ahem. I'm going to just drop this right here... BEHOLD, THE POWER OF STORMCUTE.

So I'm working on the first one right now. I just want everyone to know that I'll probably only be able to get these out at a rate of one or two a week. I hope that's okay. I'll open this back up for requests when I get through most of these. Stay tuned!

Agree with this 100%. The Odium's Champion plot line is resolved at this point, and accomplished its intended function. Odium chose Dalinar as his champion, Dalinar resisted Odium, and now Odium can no longer directly lead his armies on Roshar lest he trigger a Contest of Champions that he would lose (as his chosen champion doesn't even support him). Now Odium needs to work through agents instead of directly to accomplish his goals.

I got a total of 23 books this year, 5 of which were the Alcatraz books (which I haven't read yet). I also got a stuffed Porg, which I have named Vasher and placed on top of my mass market paperbacks of WoK, WoR, and Warbreaker.

This is an interesting criticism to me because it did not feel out of place at all to me. The feeling the moment you meet your first child is one you will never quite experience again. Mothers form a bond with the child through the pregnancy men not so much. It was life changing for me. When I first saw and held my son I understood what it was all about and it was almost overwhelming. I thought the scene was pretty accurate of course Brandon has experienced this so that helps. The scene that really got me in the feels though was when Renarin gave Dalinar the bottle. Wow that one made me cry.

In the breakfast hall at Urithiru, a newly Ascended Dalinar explains something very important to a hungry Reshi urchin:

Day 1: A very fine carpet, sir. The morning mist was beginning to burn away, but the ever present ashfalls kept the city of Luthadel shrouded in darkness. The Infiltrators quietly made their way through the streets, approaching sleeper agents and receiving their disguises. Quietly, they made their kills. Their targets were chosen specifically and carefully. People new to the city, or people who lived alone. People who were not well known. The Infiltrators killed their marks, dumped the bodies in the slums, and stepped into the newly vacated lives. They pretended to start their day with the rest of the citizens. They greeted people as if they had previously met. They feigned sickness and non restful nights as reason for their forgetting previously held conversations. They lied their way into positions of power, and prepared their bloody work. Elend, Ham, and Dockson listened intently as OreSeur continued his retelling. “As I approached the open gate, I heard a man slip on the cobblestones behind me. When I turned to look, I saw a figure wearing a cloak running at me with a dark sword. He stabbed me through the chest, lifting me into the air. His sword was thrust expertly to puncture my lungs. He did not want me to cry out. More men appeared, closing the gate before anyone else could see it. They dragged me some distance away before dumping my body.” “And you are certain it was this Mercenary? Fynn?” Dockson was the only one in the room asking questions. Elend stood, listening and nodding along. Hammond was simply leaning back in his chair, while Vin dozed off in hers. “I recognized that sword. Larger than most, and dark. He worked for Lord Cett 3 years ago, and operates in the West mostly.” “Thank you OreSeur.” Elend dismissed him, before turning to the others. “So I’m assuming these men are saboteurs?” “Or assassins.” said Ham. “Or Both. Either way, we need to start looking for anyone who has shown up. Check the Slums, and the thieving crews. I’ll have the men start looking in to it.” “And I will start writing up a list of new arrivals.” Dockson drew out a fresh sheet of paper. “They certainly had insider knowledge. Someone on the inside is helping them.” “Alright. Thank you Gentlemen.” Everyone save Vin rose as Elend continued. “Keep me in the loop, and get to work.” The Game has officially begun! Please remember that PM’s are only allowed at Night! For this first Day, there will be a 3 vote minimum to lynch a player. Starting on Day 2, there will be a 2 vote minimum. There will be a lynch if there is a tie. There may be multiple. All PM’s will be sent out within the next 10 minutes. If you do not have a PM, say so here. Remember, Manukos and I are the GM’s, Alvron is the IM. Happy Murders! Day 1 will end in Player List:

I suspect no one else here address the fact that Brandon introduced two kids characters and tied both to Kaladin in the Oathbringer. Its Oroden and Gavinor. Oroden is Kaladin's new brother and another reason to protect the humanity. Gavinor is Elhokar's son, and thats really interesting hook for a new plot line. Elhokar basically passed everything he cared about to Kaladin. And its really symbolic that Kaladin's men brought Gavinor to Kaladin. To safety. Now, i dont expect much development for Kaladin-Mentor-Brother-Father Fighure plot line in Book 4 but i definitely expect Kaladin to become the father figure for Gavinor in the following books. And that will bring so much juicy stuff revolving the throne, Jasnah, ruling family and stuff. I find it interesting because 1) Its exciting to see will Brandon gave some papa-wolf scenes for Kaladin; 2) Its interesting to see what roles both Gavinor and Oroden will play in Kaladin's character development and life beyond being just an objects for him to defend; 3) Its interesting to see Oroden and Gavinor dynamic in the back 5 books. I suspect they are similar in age, both of them most likely will be tied to Kaladin, and it would be interesting to see their dynamic given they have such a badass brother/"father figure".

The important thing to take away is: "Nothing Brandon writes is meaningless"

I posted this in another thread, but it fits here as well:

I am currently reading WoR for the fourth time, and I am thinking less about the storyline, and more about the Cosmere, and how Roshar fits into all of this. I thought about this at one point, as Jasnah said that seeing the future is of the voidbringers. Or Odium. Ruin's body is Atium, a metal that allows certain Allomancers to see a very short way into the future. I feel like this is very important, but I don't know how.

Parshendi Forms: From Eshonai's prologue, after Gavilar explains the fabrial: When Venli first meets Timbre, at Eshonai's body: And then Venli bonds with Timbre: And then when talking with the Fuzed named Rine: So the Nahel bond is more powerful than the Parshendi forms bond from capturing spren inside their gemhearts during highstorms to transform, presumably because the only stormlight needed for the Parshendi bond to work is during the bonding itself but not for any of the surges that come after the bond. When Aesudan and Amaram bonded with the Unmade spren, that seems to be a Parshendi bond since they swallowed gems (spheres) to make the bond, with Amaram's purple gemheart glowing in the end and Aesudan's gemheart glowing through her dress. Thunderclasts From the Thaylen City battle: So the stone has gemhearts that, when inhabited by Voidspren, transform the stone into something else. No wonder Szeth's people aren't stonewalkers, right? Does stone have other forms? Chasmfiends Chasmfiends obviously have gemhearts. I think they must have other forms, too. We know chasmfiends, skyeels, and greatshells all have the same spren. From the Kaza interlude, we know that greatshells do also have gemhearts. Are these three different forms for the same being? Do chasmfiends have other forms? Are they also thunderclasts? From Adolin's fight with the thunderclast: Urithiru And then: So we wake it just as the Fuzed woke Thunderclasts from stone, right? We bond Urithiru with a spren. Or multiple spren. Spren that can be trapped in a heart of emerald and ruby. And from the gem library: Dude, is Urithiru the Sibling?!!!! Sibling to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather? So the Sibling was stolen away? And from the Stormfather's conversation with Dalinar: Slumbering! Sleeping! Just like Dalinar said Urithiru was! And this is why the Radiant says goodnight to Urithiru, goodnight to the Sibling! So we need to find the slumbering Sibling spren and restore her (or probably "them" because the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the singular and the plural) to Urithiru's heart to waken Urithiru, right? And what will a wakened Urithiru be like? Will she move? Will she protect? Will she destroy? *************************** Related ideas: Fabrials are similar but not as alive as it would seem Urithiru will be and certainly not as alive as Parshendi, chasmfiends, or great shells. Parshmen may not have had gemhearts until the first Everstorm, which restored their gemhearts and thus enabled them to now have forms, including Voidforms. Different Parshendi forms likely come from different types of spren, with Voidform (forms of power) coming from corrupted or Unmade spren. Dullform might be having a gemheart with no spren bond since dullform is so close to parshmen. Are there secrets to other cities, not just Urithiru? Kabsal draws Kholinar as a triangular shape with three outlying wings and a peaked center (Pg 510 of WoK), which incidentally is the symbol on Gavilar's shardplate (Pg 29 of WoK), saying that the city was built on a rock formation already there. The stone windblades of Kholinar seem particularly significant, where Kaladin says the interior corridor of the windblades reminds him of the strata at Urithiru (Pg 785 of OB). I'm equally interested in the City of Shadows and even the City of Bells, but perhaps these cities are special in different ways.

Hi, I haven't followed the forum in a while. But i remember there beeing a worldhopper from Nhaltis somwhere in the cosmere. I think i maybe found her: I don't know if anyone has propoused this already. At least i didn't find anything. Let me hear your thoughts

Odium does not want to fight directly for risk of being defeated, as he has been wounded before.

Yes, he believes himself to be in the Purelake. And there's something terribly strange about the tower there, as well: Fins and arrowheads?!! This fortress sounds like it could have been created through a gemheart bond, just like the thunderclasts (and possibly Urithiru though Urithiru doesn't seem to resemble any creatures).

@Dreamstorm, that's a pretty good breakdown. However, as the person who initially argued that we won't see a new champion, I need to say that I don't subscribe to option 4. The contest is not null and void, but very much in play, and the reason why Odium can no longer confront Dalinar directly, as explicitly stated in the Taravangian quote. Of the options you provided, I actually also believe the most likely scenario is Option 3, but I should point out that there are actually a few possibilities here: - Option 3a: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid. - Option 3b: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, but Odium realises that Dalinar is already stronger than any champion he could ever put forward, and is therefore avoiding a contest he cannot win. - Option 3c: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since his chosen champion defied him, Odium must fight in the contest himself, which puts him at risk not only of being defeated in battle, but destroyed outright. While this risk might be low, it is significant enough for him to avoid the contest and rely on his agents. I'm not sure we have enough information to tell which of these is true at the moment. In my original post I effectively argued for 3c, but I agree that perhaps it is possible that Odium may still be able to groom a champion, and that perhaps that champion may be capable of defeating Dalinar. But Odium was surprised, and perhaps scared by Dalinar's unexpected ascension, and regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct, he now realises that there is a non-zero risk of losing to Dalinar. This is why Odium has made the choice to go back to the longer but safer plan of besieging Roshar with his Unmade, his voidbringers, and his other agents. That's why I don't think we'll see another champion.

Thanks for putting all the effort in to pull all of these disparate pieces of information about gemhearts and their consequences, @Wit Beyond Measure. There are a lot of different paths to follow here, but I want to focus on Thunderclasts for a moment, using your original paragraph about them as a jumping off point: So the stone has gemhearts that, when inhabited by Voidspren, transform the stone into something else. No wonder Szeth's people aren't stonewalkers, right? Does stone have other forms? I initially took your statement that "the stone has gemhearts" to be an error. Surely it's more likely that the stone contains naturally occurring gemstones (not gemhearts), which the Fused can bond with to create the thunderclast? But on reflection, perhaps 'gemheart' is the correct word after all. Specifically the buried gemhearts of dead chasmfiends. As you quoted above, we already have Adolin's direct observation that the thunderclast "looks like a chasmfiend. The head, at least. The body was vaguely like a thick human skeleton." Could this resemblance be because thunderclasts are formed when the Fused inhabit the buried gemheart of a dead chasmfiend? To be honest, it was only after reading this thoughtful and well researched post by @MonsterMetroid that I made the connection between chasmfiend gemhearts and thunderclasts. MonsterMetroid's post takes this WoB, which discusses the possibility of gemheart "fossil beds", and expands on it, attempting to map the likely distribution of fossil gemhearts on Roshar. The main takeaway is that there are unknown numbers of gemhearts locked in the stone and crem of Roshar, and that their distribution is uneven, but potentially predictable. So, the stone of Roshar DOES contain gemhearts, and these gemhearts are still 'functional' enough to be worth mining by humans for use in soulcasting. They should therefore also be usable by the Fused, assuming that the Fused have the power to bond them. That's still a pretty big assumption, though, and we don't have any direct in-world evidence for this, beyond Adolin's observations above. We don't have any clear WoB's either, although there are a couple of (mis-)statements from Brandon which, when read with this idea in mind, seem suspicious to me. The first comes from the WoB mentioned above: Brandon was totally about to dish something there, but caught himself. I can't help wondering whether it was something along the lines of "Yeah, that's why the Fused can make thunderclasts." Pure speculation on my part of course -- he really could have been about to say anything. But this second quote hints at a direct connection between chasmfiends and thunderclasts. The quote has already been referenced in this thread by @hoiditthroughthegrapevine : Once again, Brandon seems to hold himself back from revealing some detail, before stumbling around for the more ambiguous "in-world inspiration" line. Now, take a moment and try to finish the sentence "Thunderclasts have chasmfiend ..." Maybe Brandon was going to go on to say "thunderclasts have chasmfiend gemhearts", and maybe he wasn't, but it sounds awfully plausible to me. I certainly can't think of any other word that fits better. Assuming that this is correct, and thunderclasts do use buried chasmfiend gemhearts, then @MonsterMetroid's maps of gemheart locations in Roshar may have very big implications for future battles, given that natural process will ensure that some areas (such as the Purelake) are likely to accumulate higher densities of gemhearts over time.

Is it really over? Dalinar refused, but was he ever "officially the Champion" and had he beaten himself, hence the Champion, then wouldn't it mean the side of Honor has won? I am not personally convinced it is over: I am thinking Odium's first choice did not work out. Now he is looking for a replacement.

And judging by Dalinar's reaction to meeting his second son, Renarin, which is night and day with Adolin's birth scene, I don't think this was Brandon's misstep, at all. Every time Adolin and Renarin appear in Dalinar's flashbacks, they were contrasted, and this is one of those comparisons. I don't understand your criticism at all.

"Taking" isn't probably the word she should use, but she's still not in her final form, so she's not yet fully beautiful and articulate. She's definitely receiving something from him (sapience) and giving him something in return (cool powers), and you could argue that he wasn't ever given the change to affirmatively agree to that transaction, so in that sense she's "taking" something from him. But we have no indication that his capacity is reduced in any way because of what she's getting through the bond. Think of Syl like a helium balloon that for some reason wants to stick around near the ground. She ties herself to Kaladin's backpack, thus gaining access to his mass, which is enough to keep her from floating away into the air. If he were standing on a really sensitive scale you might be able to detect the change due to the Syl-balloon's attachment, but in practical terms it's negligible. In exchange, he gets a spiffy balloon.

Not surprised the idea of Adolin as OC brings up a lot of strong opinions! Let me preface my post with saying that I don't necessarily want Adolin to become OC and I am in no way convinced that he will be but I don't think the possibility has been ruled out by what we have seen so far. I like Adolin and as he is now I think he is a goodhearted character. The stuff about sign of nine is just an interesting bit of foreshadowing but obviously in no way proves anything by itself and could be pointing to something else entirely. But I don't believe BS just included it as a random, meaningless detail. From what we have seen in OB, yes, one can't be forced into being OC. On the other hand, Dalinar had to resist very hard once he was chosen, it wasn't as simple as just saying no. I would imagine most other characters who were good by nature and not already inclined to fight for Odium would have a similar struggle and maybe another wouldn't have the strength that Dalinar did in that moment. I think what you said about someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own feelings and actions being the type to succumb is likely. Odium showed us that a tool he uses is to take someone's pain from them and there are probably a lot of well intentioned characters who might give in to that given the right motivation. Reading that chapter in OB, I definitely thought it was possible that Dalinar might give in and become OC at that point. Dalinar as we now know has some heinous things in his past, far more than Adolin as far as we know (murdering Sadeas really can't compare) but at this point he is still a character with the best of intentions and far stronger than most I would guess. That tells me that it is possible for someone we don't expect, someone who would not go out of their way to serve Odium to still end up as OC. Now Adolin at this exact moment in the story probably doesn't have nearly enough reason to give in to Odium, but that could still change. To me there are some hints in the story that his marriage to Shallan may be doomed for disaster and that he hasn't really dealt with Sadeas' murder, etc. which suggest that he may unfortunately have a lot of pain in his future. I personally expect that reading a lot of pain for Adolin would be devastating (if my unexpected grief at Elhokar's death is any indication BS knows how to catch me off guard and make me cry even for a character I didn't care about that much). Reading Adolin go dark would also be devastating. In a lot of ways I hope the pain I expect for Adolin is what helps him revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, I'm sure I would enjoy reading that more, but it may be instead what causes him to go dark. Or maybe both could occur, one doesn't rule out the other. On some some separate notes: I did think of Taravangian but I can also think of a lot of arguments against him, probably the biggest of which is that he is still strongly affected by Cultivation (Dalinar was too but what she did to him seems to have passed and had its effect now) and that could be a complicating factor. Odium might want to use him in any way he can but the effects Cultivation had on him would probably have to be undone somehow in order for him to be effective as OC. But I probably should have included him in my random list at the beginning. By the way, there are definitely people I threw into that list that I don't personally think at all likely to be OC (like Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan), I just tried to include most of the major characters as a starting place.

You don't have to be a Sanderson fan to know Arcanum Unbounded doesn't cost Euro 900,-... My local book webshop evidently knows that I like Sanderson, so they think I'll pay anything, lol

When you are driving through the salt flats in Utah, and you drive through the mist for about an hour. Then you look at the sun, and your first thought is, "Shadesmar!" I was also listening to the WoR audiobook at the point where Jasnah was lecturing Shallan about Shadesmar, so that had something to do with that thought...

2 - I will always follow proper code style protocol for my programs 3 - I will always avoid race conditions and code in a thread and process safe manner 4 - I will always create an exhaustive test bench to ensure the validity of my program 5 - I will always reuse code in dedicated helper functions

It is interesting that lies drew Pattern to Shallan, yet truths are what she needs to move forward. There is also lots of speculation that the Windrunner 4th ideal will be something very different than the rest, as Kaladin needs to let go of something (the past? the need to save everyone). It isn't really healthy or ideal for Jasnah to coldly act on intellect alone, and Ivory learnt something of that when Jasnah saved Renarin. So I suspect the forth oath will be something to do with the heart and the mind working together.

Zahel and Vivenna both use color metaphors. Zahel is playing the game that Lightsong keeps winning (even though he doesn't know the rules) when you first encounter him. He also mentions hoow he hasn't had someone talking in his head for a long while. The physical description also matches. Vinenna's Shardblade drains color, she has the crew in Shadesmar cut pieces of cloth into human shapes, and her haircolor and face change when she's not paying attention. She also talks about how she was born into a ruling family and ran from her obligations. And she knows Vasher.

Pg. 180 in the e-Book: "The ardent grunted, then shoved away Dalinar’s weapon and lunged at him. Dalinar, however, caught Kadash’s arm, then spun the man with his own momentum" Congratulations on the consistency Dalinar, but it seems you took a step back going from a Sharblade to an ardents arm. Don't worry guys, mystery solved, we can all go home now.

The highlight in book 10 will be when Dalinar catches Lift.

Top of the Ninth, 3 Fused on base, Cultivation throws a wicked curveball, Odium swings and misses, and HE CAUGHT IT! Good job Dalinar!

if he does that to Odium, Kelsier won't have anything to do

Well, I choose to look at it like that: one year is plenty of time for the passion and infatuation to fade, and problems to start popping up and characters realising that maybe there're issues with their union that should have been resolved before they got married. And maybe those characters aren't ready to deal with these matters, especially if these issues had a year to take root and to be mulled over by those who should have thought a little more before making rush decisions while knowing how flawd these decisions where. I hope I'm being coherent but I have developed a monstrous headache so...

I haven’t seen anyone post this yet the person who made it can be found here: https://www.google.com/amp/tatter-demallion.tumblr.com/post/100307590545/i-love-that-dalinar-basically-ordered-the/amp

That's my idea as well. In this case I wouldn't imagine Adolin going down the path of young Dalinar... but I can see still see him going all Darth Vader. A bit of clever manipulation and a desperate situation can make a good man fall without even realizing it before it's too late. And in this comparison unyielding loyalty and caring for his loved ones actually turns out to be a liability.

Okay so I was so shocked at how poorly the romance was handled in this book that I finally went and made myself an account to join the discussion, so hello everyone . I know I'm also very late to the party but I just finished the book yesterday (shipping to Poland took a while...). Anyway, if anyone's interested, here are my problems with this, in my opinion, awful love triangle: 1. It's so similar to what Sanderson has done in Mistborn and while I didn't like that one, I think it was still a lot better that what we got in Oathbringer. It goes like this: a woman is having problems with her self-esteem and herself in general, which causes her to swift towards the more "adventorous" man as opposed to the one that gives her stabilisation. When she's just about to choose the former, BANG! She has a realisation! Oh how stupid I was! And she comes running to the safe option and the whole relationship is now magically perfect despite having tons of problems just 5 pages ago. Except in Mistborn Adolin and Shallan are just in the process of getting to know each other and most of their interactions is well, tee-heeing, not anything deeper. Which brings me to my next point. 2. The supposed reason why Shallan chooses Adolin is the most absurd one Sanderson could have come up with. If it was something like "Adolin makes me happy" than ok, I might have been able to understand that because it actually makes sense. But Adolin knows me? Sorry, did I miss something other that your interactions being mailny... flirting? There are two scenes I believe where they actually talk about something deeper and both made me roll my eyes. One is in Shadesmar and it is basically: "-Adolin, I have many personalities u kno -Shallan, that is weird. Also, I killed Sadeas -Oh I guess that's ok" The other being the one when she actually chooses him and it is even worse: "-Hello Adolin why so gloom -U like Kaladin -Well yeah. But I like u more cause u make me face my problems by saying "Shallan, no" in one deeper interaction in the entire book. So let's ignore that problem and get married -Oh ok" There is nothing either in WoR or Oathbringer that indicates he knows her, on the contrary, based on the interactions in both books the knowing her argument would be the one Shalladin shippers would use the most because we have actually been given scenes with deep interactions between the two. So why make that the reason why she goes for Adolin? 3. The scene between her and Adolin that I already mentioned above, when she chooses him. She says she likes Adolin because he makes her face her problems... again, where. Yes, he isn't comfortable with her having multiple personalities but where does he actually help her face the problem? By becoming drinking buddies with Veil and "somehow making it work"? This isn't you two having different tastes about furniture, this is a woman having different personalities take over her, it isn't just a thing one can compromise on. She needs actual help. The joke about how "every man wishes to have three brides u know" was so wrong, my god... Also the scene between Kaladin and Shallan on the ship where he tells her that "Wow, you're just able to stuff it in the back of your head? I wish I could do that" and that is obviously used as an argument against him because that is supposed to mean that he doesn't make her face her problems like Adolin supposedly does. But he only gets told that she's able to shove the emotions away while to Adolin, in her moment of confusion between the personalities, she tells that she's shifting between a couple of people. It's just so unfair to Kaladin's character to imply that he wouldn't help her with a problem like this where the only thing he has done the entire three books is trying to help people. But I digress. 4. The interactions between Shallan and Adolin after she chooses him. What... what is that? I've seen people defending it by saying "oh, it is how young people act, it is supposed to be written that way. you know- young love" and I've seen this argument brought up especially with the "You're beautiful" scene. I'm sorry, but I could defend the whole Twilight saga by using this argument. I'm about their age actually and I have not seen people act this stupid around each other. It's like the whole book we are given a relationship that is ok at most and then suddenly she goes "Adolin knows me" and she is now so crazy about him that the only thing she can think about is their wedding night? And then there's the whole Veil drinking buddy thing... just...no. There are many other problems I have with this but other people have covered those aspects pretty well so I'll briefly mention them: the pacing was awful, the conclusion was rushed and the "gurll arranged marriage is awesome" got old - I'm a woman myself and for the love of god Brandon please stop doing that. The only thing I can say I liked about it was Kaladin's reason for liking her - that she reminded him of Tien because she could just laugh despite the world crushing on her. That actually makes sense. If it was written more from his perspective, with him pursuing her and then realizing that he likes her because of this and then stepping back and also her having a more meaningfull relationship with Adolin along with realizing that she need stability... in my opinion it would've been so much better. I've seen many people saying that it was supposed to be that bad because Sanderson is not done with this relationship but I think I'll be the sceptical one and say that yes he is, and while he is one of my favourite writers I have to say that my theory about the whole thing is simply this: he has written it poorly and now we're stuck with it. That said if in the next book Shallan's POV starts with something like "Shallan was holding little Plotdevolin in her arms, thinking just how lucky she was. These days, Veil and Radiant have completely retreated." I think I'll go ahead and visit the Nightcrawler to ask to please remove all of Shallan's chapters from my memory.

I'm not only getting out, I'm running out.

Pretty much every Pattern, Lopen, and Nightblood comment made me lose my stormdroppings. There were a ton of really surprising moments of humor during the battle of Thaylen City too. Some of my faves: There are so, so many more. I loved every one of Lift's interactions with Dalinar and Szeth, too.