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  1. 14 points
    No mating! Mating? No, wrong word. Mating… No… Negativity. Negativity! No negativity! This is word I wanted. Drat, good puns are impossible for those with poor vocabulary. There are some negative threads about Shallan and I thought it would be nice to have a positive one to balance things. She deserves this. So let’s follow Shallan’s example and forget the things that bother us about her for a while. Lighten up and make bad jokes to express you appreciation of her character or write a whole essay Jasnah would be proud of! I’ll go first She’s persistent – she followed Jasnah for months, and then relentlessly pursued the cause of finding Urithiru. She loves her family. No matter what became of them. Her art is an amazing addition to the books, and in-world it inspires people to be better. She always gets involved with very interesting people. And Unmade. How does she find those? Don’t ask. She is one of the few characters to make the Blackthorn tear. That is quite the accomplishment. I mean, the guy intimidates the forces nature… So thank you Shallan for being here to show us a girl can marry the handsome prince and also save the world. It’s all about that work-life balance, folks.
  2. 10 points
    Szeth fought on the side of the Thaylens, so I doubt they'll have many complaints about his presence after his display there. In Azir, Lift has a lot of Sway with Gawx, and she was the first to accept him, being friendly as far back as Edgedancer, so I think her vouching for him will smooth it over there. With Azir in line, the other countries behind them will toe the line. That leave King T, who's in no position to judge. Especially since Kaladin can bear witness that Szeth's actions and what he said about the Radiants match up with his new attitude. (I don't know how it all matches up with his revised death, I've not read the revised scene.) The fact that he used to try to kill Dalinar, and now serves him, should be weighty evidence as well. All in all, I don't really think "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is too farfetched a rationale in this situation. When the world is ending, I wouldn't complain if the most accomplished killer in the world stopped killing world leaders and joined the resistance. I'd watch him, but I wouldn't reject the help of a guy who made a giant stone monster disappear in a puff of black smoke. I certainly don't do anything to make the guy who killed three quarters of the world leaders mad after that display of power anyway. I mean, what is anyone going to do about it? They couldn't stop Szeth when they wanted to, they're going to waste the resources trying now that he's on their side?
  3. 9 points
    Edit: while the nature of my argument stays the same, I would like you to view this Instead from Elhokar not having earned his Redemption Instead of not deserving it. My original choice of words was poor. Before I start, I want to preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that I'm not trying to put down anyone's opinion or anything similar to that nature. If you disagree and enjoy Elhokar as a character and didn't like his arc, I definitely respect that, and look forward to some spirited debate. I just have some thoughts that have been floating around I wanted to put out there and my objective reasons for those feelings. Without further pre-amble, here goes: I think that Elhokar's arc was the perfect ending to a character with very few redeeming qualities, and that Elhokar was not deserving of the redemption arc he was headed towards. I'm going to organize my thoughts by first going over Elhokar's flaws before OB, briefly discussing the path he was taking to Radiance and especially how a bond with the cryptics relates to his past, and finally how that combination, for me personally, makes the character not deserving of full redemption, and why his death was very satisfying for me. I. Elhokars Past Flaws Elhokar's fatal sin is that of Vanity, as Hoid points out earlier in this scene. In his defense, he's grown up with incredibly large expectations thrust upon him. His mother is a renowned artifabrian, his father is the greatest monarch since the Sunmaker, his uncle is the greatest general alive, his cousin is one of the most skilled duelists, his sister is a world renowned scholar. Elhokar is...unimpressive. There is nothing innately wrong with being unimpressive. The world thrives on people who understand their place in it and are driven to fulfill that duty well. This is Vorin doctrine through elevation of callings. This was not good enough for Elhokar though, he was not satisfied with taking his calling of leading Alethkar and fulfilling that duty to the best of his ability, he had to be recognized as significant. His goal wasn't to do good, but to be recognized for doing good. It's a common theme for Elhokar. He puts the cart before the horse, recognizing the destination but ignoring the significance of the journey. This is apparent at his father's funeral. There are several criticisms I have for this. First off, what does he want for vengeance? The leaders of the Parshendi confessed and we're executed, justice was served. What objective is he trying to meet? Genocide? No, he reveals what he's truly after in the speech, public support. He wasn't satisfied with them swearing to him privately, he needed an excuse to demand the Highprinces swear to him, then a justification to try to match his father's conquest by invading the Shattered Plains. That he provides no objectives or direction as the war wages is further proof. He married Aesudan against Jasnah's advice because he wants her strength to help his reputation, not because of love or because it will help his house. Fast forward a few years to where we catch up to him. On the Shattered Plains, he invents a assassination attempt because he's worried his uncle wants to kill him. This stems, Imo, from his frustration at Dalinar for stepping in so often to fix Elhokar's mistakes. When Elhokar is worried about Dalinar courting Navani, it's not because he's worried about his mother or his uncle, but because of how it could reflect on him. He seeks out Kaladin for his help because he's jealous of how Kaladin is seen as a hero, not because he wants to fulfill his duty better. I'm sure there's other examples, but essentially, it's all summed up by what the Stormfather said: II. Path to Radiance/Cryptics The most tragic part of Elhokar's death is it comes just as he achieves the first ideal and overcomes those flaws, cut down just as he starts his path to redemption, but what led him there? I'm going to lightly touch on the first ideal, because I know it's a contentious topic, but I think it's central to the topic. From my interpretation, at it's core, the first ideal is an oath to use your strength in service to others. This is something that Elhokar has never done up to this point. His actions were always couched in attempting to make himself look better. By being able to swear the first oath, he overcame that, and was starting on the path to use his position in service to his kingdom. For the cryptics, we know that they are attracted to lies. And we also know that they need truth to progress. We know that they have been following Elhokar since WoK So, it's pretty easy to speculate that the Cryptics we're attracted by the lies that Elhokar told himself about his motives, that his attempts to increase his respect and reputation disguised by his lies brought him to their attention. Likewise, his transition to sincerely wish to use his power in service, and his ability to finally see himself for his own flaws and understand his own motives allowed him to reach across and bond him. That brings us to: III. No Redemption So why doesn't he deserve redemption? He's made the transition, his motives have improved, he's finally understood what truly is required of him by his station. Why won't I cut him some slack? Well, I don't think he would have been irredeemable had the narrative gone another way, but as written in OB, he definitely was. I actually was looking forward to his redemption end of WoR. However, the behavior demonstrated in the first point continued throughout the OB. He has made great strides in self awareness, but his still has a huge blindspot: Aesudan. This is in spite of all evidence pointing to her being the cause of the trouble and along with Jasnah's warning. He still has trouble admitting it with her in front of his eyes, the city in ruins, his child unwell in his arms. It's not until Kaladin reminds him of what's truly at stake, his son, that Elhokar finally admits Aesudan is beyond help and leaves. Even then, it takes some of Shallan's transformation magic to fully complete the transformation. So let's wrap this all together. Elhokar's past mistakes are beyond egregious. I didn't even touch on Moash's grandparents and their unjust death at his command. His path to Radiance required him to become self aware of his faults and take up his station in service to others, but the reason I feel he didn't deserve redemption was because of when it truly came. It wasn't until his throne was usurped by his uncle, his kingdom had been invaded, his palace shrouded by darkness, his wife consumed by an unmade, his capital fallen to the enemy, his mission to save the city failing, he was pushed along by Lightweaving magic and that he was his son's last line of defense that he finally was able to push past his previous lies and selfishness and achieve Radiance. For me, the cost is far too high for his redemption. I do think he could have been written in this book to have been redeemed, but, personally, the way the story played out, this was the only resolution, and it was a fitting one.
  4. 9 points
    Quite aside from the question of whether Dalinar's Radiants accepted Szeth too easily, I'm pretty sure the other heads of state wouldn't. These are the people who nearly backed out of the coalition because they found out that Dalinar had a conversation with Odium. So now Szeth is sworn to Dalinar, and is following him around like a lost puppy. He might not be wearing white anymore, but he's a weird Shin guy with a freaky sword who can walk on walls. People are going to be suspicious. And with Dalinar's new total honesty policy, he's going to have to tell them, "Yeah, he's the Assassin-In-White. But he pinky-swore not to kill people anymore, so it's all right now."
  5. 7 points
    So, folks. In Oathbringer we learned a decent amount about the Oathpact. As a refresher: it was an agreement between Honor and ten people, who would become His Heralds (who originally volunteered to keep the evil at bay, something I didn't fully expect). Jezrien, Nale, Chanarach, Vedel, Pailiah, Shalash, Battar, Kalak, Talenel, and Ishar willingly subjected themselves to torture on Braize by voidspren for centuries at a time, until one of them "broke" and another Desolation began. After the Desolations, if a Herald died, they were sent back to Damnation, and even if they didn't they were expected to willingly go back, for the good of humanity. It was all good, and Honorable, until after Aharietiam, now known as the "Final Desolation" (which proved to be a misnomer), when the 9 surviving Heralds apparently all came to the unanimous decision that they just couldn't do it anymore. They left Taln to suffer for eternity, as he had never given in before, and parted ways. (It's always stricken me as odd that they all came to that same conclusion at the same time. Sure, they were all immortally exhausted, but it seems suspicious.) Now, that may strike many people as being particularly cold-hearted and Odious in origin, but I have another theory: After being broken so thoroughly for so long, the force or being that somehow got all the remaining Heralds to come to the same decision was not of Odium or of some other "evil" Shard or power. The reason the Oathpact was broken (or, more accurately, "bent") was because of Cultivation. In the final chapters of Oathbringer, when Ash and Taln are trying to get out of Thaylen City, Taln tells Ash that it was a good thing that they broke the Oathpact, as it's been 4,500 years since the previous Desolation and humanity has had time to prepare, and there might just be a chance of victory this time. This reminds me of Cultivation taking away Dalinar's memories of Evi, "pruning" him in order to promote growth. Perhaps Cultivation put an idea in the heads of the 9 Heralds that it was time to stop, so that humans could have a chance of finally winning. After all, she does have a particularly potent ability to see the future. Thoughts?
  6. 7 points
    Then why haven't you dropped the series because it contains slavery and a caste society? That goes against modern morale standards, too. If you had applied those for everything we've had so far, not just the possibility of Shallan having a baby any time soon, the sentence would have been catastrophic and you would have dropped the series before the end of WoK. I don't mean to be rude, I'm not sure if I succeeded. I respect if adding a baby is not your cup of tea, you say so yourself, just disagree with justifying this with modern day morale.
  7. 7 points
    A mysterious lawman from an unknown location called "The Roughs" appears on Roshar to educate Nale and the wayward Skybreakers on what it truly means to be a lawman. Another mysterious individual with a fondness for hats ascends to the 5th Ideal of the Lightweavers within a single day, baffling the entire collective of Cryptics with his impressive knowledge of lies and truths.
  8. 6 points
    Share your deep dark secrets here (but only if they are related to this site) I'll Start us off to set the correct tone: My first series I read by Brandon, I started with book 2. it was the Alcatraz series. I'm a terrible person.
  9. 6 points
    I pretty much agree. I don't agree that he wasn't deserving of redemption, because I believe that absolutely anyone is capable of change, but from a storytelling perspective, this ending was the entire reason for his "redemption. He made just enough strides forward to hook the reader for the emotional jerk at his death. It was masterfully done. I doubt many would have been outraged at Elhokars death a month ago.
  10. 6 points
    Well yes, and that is why Elhokar died. And his death is deserved - but it is also tragic. For him to die right at the point when he finally gains self awareness and starts becoming a better person is a tragedy, despite the fact that over the first two books he was more or less a selfish elitist whiny prick. It is always possible to start being a better person, and everyone deserves the chance to redeem themselves. Elhokar's death was a tragedy precisely because he was so close to becoming a sympathetic character, but I do think the story is better for it.
  11. 6 points
    I defended Elhokar far before Oathbringer (I had some great conversations with maxal on the topic) and so I will defend him now as well. To start with, as you say, Elhokar is the average joe, pretty much. Dalinar, Gavilar, Navani, Adolin, Jasnah, Sadeas... they are all formidable, and he is not. We all know the Alethi, especially the Alethi lighteyes. We know what the ideal looks like. Glory, power and all that jazz. Elhokar isn´t a particularly strong individual. The fact that he was swept along by the current and started wishing for more glory, more power, and more jazz than he already had, is nothing strange. And the fact that he grew up to be weak enough isn´t strange either, and can´t hardly be something we blame him for. Not all people will be strong like Kaladin or Dalinar. And for someone with Elhokars mindset, the jealousy and the fact that he cares a lot about how others see him isn´t particularly surprising. When you add in the strong belief in the Almighty (Elhokar once asks why the Almighty would give him a crown if he is unfit for it), and the knowledge that he keeps on failing, you have a pretty tragic character. Then we have the faked assassination attempts. I think you are reading those wrong. Elhokar is paranoid. I don´t know much about paranoia, but I do know a lot about being afraid, and those things are related. Elhokar is legitimately worried for his safety, and wishes to test his allies. I don´t think it has to do with Dalinar being right all the time, and more with the fact that Elhokar is seriously scared. As for the genocide, we all like Dalinar, and he was in on that as well, until the Almighty himself told him to focus on more important stuff... and remember, the Dalinar who was into the Vengeance Pact was the Dalinar who followed Codes and read The Way of Kings, not the bloodthirsty one. Jasnah and Adolin didn´t see anything wrong with it either, and both are well liked. Elhokar kicked it off, yeah, but the others never told him not to do it, or tried to usher for peace (until the Stormfather started his own cable TV in Dalinars head). When it comes to being a better king... yes, Elhokar is doing that out of selfish reasons. However, I do think he cares about his people as well, and I doubt he realizes how wrong it is to be focused on personal glory. I also want to point out a small but significant thing: Elhokar gave darkeyes a place in the arena, to watch duels, at the expense of lighteyes. This wasn´t the most popular decision he could have made (to be fair though, he might have done it to be liked by the darkeyes). When it comes to his actions in Oathbringer... he has realized his faults. I don´t think you can judge him for wanting to help or defend his wife. He simply believes that the Unmade has corrupted her, and that she needs to be saved (and he is kind of right, even though Aesudan might be beyond saving at this point). I wouldn´t blame him too much for trying to stay with Aesudan either, Again, he is shocked and wants to help her, and when he realizes that it won´t work, he leaves. I wouldn´t consider it a biggie. So, tl;dr, I like Elhokar (I have always been fond of him), and I do think that he had been worthy of a redemption arc.
  12. 6 points
    Hello, everyone! I'm glad to be rejoining the discussion. I see that we've confortably passed 1000 replies! Wonderful! So here's what I, currently, take issue with. If the whole triangle what set up as a character development through her choice for Shallan, why enter Kaladin's feelings into it? If she had to make a coice regarding which person was "good" for her and that choice had to always be from the beginning Adolin, because without him she "fades" (I still almost vomit in my mouth when thinking of that line), what was the reasoning for Kaladin to have romantic feelings for her? If he was to vaguely associate her with his brother, so therefore he doesn't really love her (which as a sentiment and phrasing makes absolutely no sense to me), why not have it be like that from the beginning? Why not have something like: "Hey, that lighteyes reminds me somewhat of Tien. I have brotherly feelings toward her and I want to protect her. That's storming strange but I want to protect a lighteyes. Maybe I'm too prejudiced towards them and some are good"? I know that I'm not much of a writter but wouldn't that be a better plot for Kaladin to get through one of his issues? Shallan could still lust after him but in the end she could decide that he isn't for her, since it's just passion from her and he doesn't see her like that. I'd be more that fine with that. Instead what we get is the beginnings of a romantic plot that gets killed within a couple of pages with the weakest of reasoning from all sides and feels like a complete mishandling of all characters involved, while being written in a very archetypal and uninteresting manner ("Without you I fade" *blergh*). Another thing I want to address is that I'm fine with an author intentionally misdirecting me (i.e. the big Mistborn misdirection), but that feels more like deceiving and toying with me. I feel I got teased by promises made with the intention to never be followed through, or at least have a conclusion that hangs together believably which might have disappointed me but I could get behind it in time.
  13. 5 points
    The Spiritual Realm is probably the least understood piece of Realmatics within the Cosmere. As such, much of this is speculation upon how the Spirit works. However, I am pretty sure that I am at least onto something with this. To understand the Spiritual Realm, you first must understand Investiture. It is a third state of “Stuff”, like Matter or Energy. But Investiture is first and foremost the “stuff” that constructs the Soul of all things. As such, all things have an aspect in the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual realms. All things have a Soul, which is usually called sDNA, or a Spirit-Web. These terms are what define most of this speculation upon the Spiritual Realm. The Spirit Web may be defined as a web that is you, composed of structures that represent yourself, or it may be also explained as threads connecting various Spiritual Ideals, which are also represented in the Spiritual Realm, which come together to form the web that is you. In this, I will attempt to explain multiple functions of the Spirit, some mundane, others magical. This will help to outline how the Spirit actually is affected by daily life, rather than just the dramatic magical events that happen occasionally with our main characters. The Spiritual Realm itself is not a place, like the Cognitive Realm could be defined as being. One can visit the Cognitive Realm, but to our knowledge, the Spiritual Realm has no Where, and therefore you cannot truly be There. It is an infinite and yet an infinitesimal realm. Where and When have no real meaning there, besides some things that I will go into later. I will also go into basically every Cosmere novel to some degree, to address various things there. So, spoilers. Furthermore, this obviously is mainly speculation, even if it is (in my own mind) very educated speculation. If Brandon comes along and says I’m all wrong, then obviously I am wrong. But I don’t think I’m completely off my rocker, so bear with me. First, addressing normal functions of the Spirit Web. As stated before, investiture is the stuff that makes up a soul, and therefore the Spirit Web is made of investiture. The Spirit Web is our perfect ideal. This is reflected in the Light Filter Realmatics model, where the Spiritual Realm is the Light, and the Cognitive Realm filters our perception of the perfect ideal, and the Physical Realm is how that manifests. However, clearly things change. As I addressed in the Spiritual Digestion topic, even in eating things we are changing things. Furthermore, over time our ideals can change, not counting that where do these spiritual ideals even come from in the first place? Clearly, the Spiritual Realm does change, and therefore it is subject to Time. HOWEVER, it is NOT subject to time in the same way the Physical Realm is, or the Cognitive Realm. Instead of it being a 4th dimensional construct like in our own universe, it is more of a 3-dimensional object in the spiritual realm, as much as the Spiritual Realm can even be defined as “3 dimensional.” This is evident in the Spiritual aspect of Fortune, the ability to see the “webs” of the future. This is what Elend sees at the end of HoA, what Kelsier sees in SH, and what Renarin sees in OB. The Spiritual Realm is reminiscent of the “Flame on a String” model, where Time is the string and the present is the flame. The past is set in stone, but there is a myriad of possibilities in the future. Preservation comments on how hard it is to make sense of these futures in SH. Clearly, in this sense, time is represented in the Spiritual Realm, even if the Spiritual Realm itself does not experience Time. This is similar to how Location is represented in the Spiritual Realm, although Location is a bit easier to explain. Location is mainly explained by the Spiritual aspect of Connection. When one is in a location, you become Connected to it. When you are born and from a location, you become more heavily connected to it than if you merely visited a location. This Connection is expressed in the Spirit Web, so if you identify as a Scadrian because you were born on Scadrial, that would make itself manifest in your sDNA. This is particularly important for Sel, where magic systems are entirely dependent on where you are from. It is also how Worldhoppers can use native languages without having to learn each one. They do so by tapping into connection, although exactly how is not entirely clear. We do have a clear example of Connection in BoM, where the medallions of the Southerners allow Wax and Co to speak with Allik. So, while there are no actual locations in the Spiritual Realm, location is still represented. Clearly, all things, and all parts of an individual, are somehow represented in the Spiritual Realm. This entire shape, the key thing of it being a particular person is the Spiritual aspect of Identity. Your Identity means that it is you. No matter how much you change as a person, your core Identity does not change, as evidenced by the fact that Feruchemists are still able to use metalminds they filled a long time ago. A few things about general Spirit Web function before I move on to discussing how the various Magics utilize the Spirit. First, digestion and destruction. By eating things, you are destroying them and turning them into yourself. As such, the Web of the items you eat are changing. They are no longer meat or an apple, they have now partially integrated into your own Web, adding to your strength and general livelihood. This also gets into the key idea of a Spirit Web acting somewhat like an Enzyme, which I will address more later. Second, heritage. As per WoB and common sense, heritage is reflected in the Spirit Web. After all, who your parents are is part of who you are, and therefore part of your Identity. Also, Allomancy and Feruchemy are both inherited, which means parts of the Spirit Web are passed on. This is probably not a cut and paste method of inheritance, but more an adaptation of the Child’s Spirit Web to start forming an Identity. It seems reasonable to assume that at birth, one has very little Identity. But, one of the first things that truly Identifies you is your parents. At that age, there is not much more that really makes you you. As such, the Spirit would Connect to the parental Spirit, and as such take on some of its attributes. This would include genetics, looks, philosophies, and magical abilities, although clearly it is not a perfect copy. This is also not a perfect model of how the Spirit would develop from birth, because clearly orphans don’t develop ideas similar to the parents if they were never raised by them. However, certain Connections to things around them should explain how a child develops the way they do. Finally, beginning to move into the more magical side of things, there is Snapping. This is a matter of some debate on how it works. Clearly, trauma of some kind causes snapping. Harmony also made snapping easier in Era 2, which shows that it can be affected by a Shard. I will attempt to explain my own hypothesis on how snapping actually works. I believe it is simply a change in who you are. As mentioned before, your core identity never changes. You are always who you are. Bu who you identify as does change, and this should reflect in the Spiritual Realm. The thing about trauma is that it changes you. You are not the same before and after being beaten bloody. You are not the same after killing your mother. But you can change in smaller ways too. This change in who you are would “Snap” your spirit web. Perhaps the first time you see poverty. Or the first time you lose someone. Perhaps just breaking an arm, or getting a nasty illness. You don’t have to commit murder just to become Radiant. It is probable that virtually every individual in the Cosmere is Snapped, to some degree or another. And once a crack in your Spirit Web forms, it is possible for more Investiture to enter in. What kind depends on where and who you are, and it is not entirely evident how each of these magical systems work. But, I will do the best to explain how what we have seen might be reflective of the Spirit Web. I will start off with Allomancy. As we all well know, a typical allomancer ingests the metal they are able to utilize, and then “burns” it to gain access to the power associated with that particular metal. I will address two important Spiritual ideas in Allomancy. First, the idea of something being a “part of you.” From many WoB’s asking whether various metal things within the body would be burnable, it is evident that in order to burn a metal, you must consider it to be “inside” of you. As soon as this is the case, the Spirit Web of the metal is now part of your Spirit Web, although still as a metal. Here’s where the other idea enters in: the ability of a Spirit Web to interact with other webs in a particular web. This is why I explain it as being like an Enzyme. The Spirit Web (according to my speculation) has a particular part that is the “active site,” which has a particular shape to fit exactly to a particular metal. The metal has to be the correct alloy because it needs to have the exact spiritual shape to fit into the “active site”. Once this takes place, an allomancer can then burn the metal. At this point, the “active site” consumes the metal’s spirit web, also consuming the metal itself, which then takes power from Preservation to power the particular ability the metal provides. It is likely that this active site has some sort of connection to Preservation which allows this connect to take place. The reason there are no 2 metal Mistings is that a Mistborn, instead of having 16 separate “active sites,” has one active site that handles any allomantic metal. A Lerasium Alloy could be imagined as creating the active site for that specific metal, while straight Lerasium would create the complete active site. How aluminum fits into this is not entirely clear, although I suspect that when one burns Aluminum, it all goes away because it’s the power of Preservation destroying the metallic spirit web, turning it into (useless) investiture. Also, Allomancy’s abilities could be imagined as Connecting to a particular idea or object, and then pulling or pushing on that connection. This gives further evidence to the Time being a Spiritual Object idea, as this would suggest that Bendalloy and Cadmium connect, and the push or pull on Time. Next, Feruchemy. Again, the active site thing works the same, except this time you are putting investiture from your own spirit web into the metal you can store into. Yes, into the Spirit Web of the metal. So, you store part of your ideal Health, or Strength, leaving that part of the spirit web that identifies your Strength or Health weaker. Of particular interest is the Spiritual quadrant of Feruchemy. Unlike Allomancy, the abilities of Feruchemy are all ones you have naturally, just used at a different rate than one normally would. Investiture is particularly interesting, as it means you store the stuff that makes up your spirit web- therefore weakening it- to tap it and make it stronger at a later date. How this is useful is not quite clear, unless you have another ability to pair it with. Storing Identity is also interesting, as you can become more of a blank slate. This also has some regard to metalminds, although exactly how Unsealed metalminds, like the Medallions, work yet is not entirely clear. Connection stores your ability to make connections, which might have some very interesting implications on a developing child. But of most interest of me today is Fortune, or the ability to see the future. Atium worked with Fortune on a very small scale, allowing one to see slightly into the future. Only slightly, because when you look only slightly into the future, usually there are not a lot of branches. However, as Vin so dramatically illustrated, sometimes one can force branches of change. Fortune probably just is the ability to choose which path they want to take, at the cost of having no foresight whatsoever when storing. Fortune on a grander scale is something that needs to be addressed, as a complete topic. Fortune is an ability demonstrated by Shards and those who see significantly into the Spiritual Realm. The branching of possible futures is clearly quite frustrating, and not always easy to interpret. Hoid does have a way of manipulating fortune, but it is NOT through Feruchemy. He does not store and then tap fortune, he has another way of manipulating it. It allows him to know where to go where he is needed. Source The Spiritual Realm manifests all possible futures, with some being more likely than others. However, it only takes one path in the end. Shards who’s intents are better aligned with foresight are better at seeing into the future. The ability to see possible pasts is also there, as shown by Malatium. However, this ability is clearly less useful than being able to see possible futures. While on the topic of Shards, I might as well get in a little speculation before I move on to addressing the Surges and the other smaller magic systems. What we call a Shard’s intent, is more than just an arbitrary name, despite what Odium says to the contrary in OB. It is, to some degree or another, a Spiritual Ideal. A Shard is a massive soul, given that it has an immense amount of investiture composing it. It is no wonder that a Vessel’s identity would be warped by so much Investiture that composed an ideal of Ruin, or Honor. I have speculated before that what we call “Intents” are pieces of Adonalsium’s original identity. However, after some more thought, I think it is also possible that Adonalsium came about as a natural creation of the untapped Spiritual Realm that was birthed at the beginning of whatever universe the Cosmere takes place in. Without life, the Spiritual Realm would not be used much, because it is living things that have large amounts of investiture in their soul, compared to the soul of a potato or a table. This may have led to friction between the realms, where the untapped Investiture of the Spiritual Realm became a single entity. No, according to this theory, Adonalsium wasn’t ever a human. But it was a mind. A living being, with more soul energy than anything else will ever have. As such, it’s Spirit would be the perfect ideal Spirit- A God. As for why relative Infinity would shatter into 16, or why anyone would want to Shatter Adonalsium, it is not entirely clear, besides a WoB or two. Source However, it does seem clear that what we call the Intent is more or less how the Vessel interprets the Spiritual Ideal the Shard represents. Furthermore, I speculate that it is due to these ideals that make Shards subject to certain laws- they cannot easily violate ideals they represent. Moving back to magic systems, we address Surgebinding. Surgebinding, in Spiritual terms, seems to be harnessing what are considered to be the 10 elemental forces on Roshar, according to the part of real interest- Spren bonds. A Knight swears Ideals or Truths- things that bring them closer to a Spiritual ideal of the Honor that their Order represents. Furthermore, the Spren integrates itself into the person’s Spiritual cracks. As such, the spren become more human, and the human becomes more sprenlike. This symbiotic relationship takes place all over Roshar, with a myriad of species. Of spiritual interest, the most important surge would probably be Transformation, which uses Stormlight to change an object into another type of thing, which means it is changing the Spirit Web of an object into a different shape. Most dramatically, Jasnah is even able to do this to people, changing them from human into a person shaped crystal statue. Of other significant note are the Singers, who are able to bond with spren to alter their bodies- and therefore their Spirit Web- into different shapes and purposes. This probably also has something to do with Active Sites being able to take in a spren. The Rhythms are likely Spiritual pulses, ideals of particular emotions. This probably comes from making small emotional connections to these Ideals, which then have this “rhythm” of investiture flow. How this works is not entirely clear. Also of some Spiritual importance is the fact that Highstorms constantly drag a perpendicularity across Roshar, which I theorize to be why spren are able to appear, because that much being driven together would likely leave the realms closer than if a perpendicularity never moved over Roshar. In fact, I think it has something to do with the entire ecology of Roshar, although how Shinovar fits in is not clear, due to a recent non-answer from Brandon on the question. Also of some interest is that fabrials have no identity, so they can be used by anyone. This contrasts greatly with your standard metalmind, which requires all sorts of extra steps we don’t understand in order to be used by anyone. Of some importance to address at this point are resonances. While I have been describing them as webs, they still are not technically a web. The Spiritual Realm is still a non-dimensional thing. Therefore, one’s spirit is both a web and a point. And in a point, all parts of it are on top of each other. Therefore, different magical abilities interact with one another, in ways that have not been fully explained yet. However, I am pretty sure that resonances are a direct result of the Ideals that different Orders identify with. How Twinborn resonances work, I have no idea. Until we get some actual examples, it is really hard to speculate on how the feruchemy and allomancy interact with one another. Moving on to less important magic systems, I will address the Selish magics as a whole. Basically, it appears that due to the Dor being in the cognitive realm, that practicioners of them forge a connection (haha accidental pun) by creating the shapes of the land they are from, whether through Aons, in your Dakhor bones, a weird sword kata, or in a Soulstamp. The Soulstamp is probably the most interesting spiritually, as it basically uses investiture to rewrite a spirit web. The closer the stamp is to the ideal, the better the stamp works. Sand Mastery is odd. How it works spiritually is not entirely clear, but also doesn’t matter to me too much, because as Khriss says, it is a low investiture system. Threnody is mainly weird because everybody has been invested to the point that they can turn into shades if they die in the right way, but no actual magic is taking place, so I’ll leave it at it being interesting that the Investiture has the ability to completely corrupt the identity of a person into whatever a Shade is. Awakening is not entirely interesting from a Spiritual standpoint, besides the dramatic exceptions of Divine Breaths and Nightblood. Nightblood is interesting because they made a super-invested death sword that is now alive. Divine breaths allow a person to come back from the dead, highly invested, at the cost of consuming some investiture each week or so. Creating sentient entities from investiture is definitely the more unique ability of this world, although I would recommend not trying that at home. I’m going to be honest and say that First of the Sun might be realmatically interesting, but at this point, I’m kind of done theorizing. It also appears to be a low investiture system, however. Why the worms only cause abilities in birds, well, probably some Spiritual shape stuff. Until we see more of that world it is hard to determine why particular species demonstrate particular abilities when the eat the worms. Also, it is notable that Sak uses some sort of form of Fortune when she shows Dusk possible places where he could die. Finally, I kind of forgot about one of the most important Spiritual magic systems: Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is a leaky, low investiture system. But most importantly it is able to rip off pieces of a spirit web and attatch it onto another one. This is absolutely fascinating, as Khriss expresses in the Ars Arcanum. The uses for Hemalurgy seem to be mostly up to the imagination of the user, as long as one is ok with the grisly work of spiking people. A couple more spiritual things I should probably mention. A spiritual corpse lasts for a while, probably due to connections to living people. Aluminum’s total spiritual aspect seems to resist investiture, and has an aura that can be overwhelmed with enough investiture, even if the actual aluminum itself is not overwhelmable. However, its Spirit web can still be accessed, because Feruchemy and Allomancy still work with it, however useless destroying your own metals may be. This is why I think that Allomancy is indirectly working with the investiture and the aluminum, compared to directly targeting aluminum with a steelpush or a soulcasting, which just has no chance of working. Finally, I realized today that in the Cosmere, a Frankenstein’s monster is downright likely to appear at some point. Not a Frankenstein’s spren, like Nightblood, or like whatever Kelsier is now. I speak of creating an entirely new person, which is indicated to be possible from this WoB about creating a sentient space ship from hemalurgy. Mark my words. Mistborn Era 3, Hemalurgic Mistborn Cyborgs and Frankenstein’s monsters are coming. Edit #1. The Law of Investiture Saturation. Basically, a spirit web can only hold so much investiture, accounting for things like mistpoint, or a full metalmind. The amount it can hold is directly related to how complex the spirit web is. As a spirit web comes closer to saturation, it becomes harder exponentially to apply more investiture to the spirit web. The reason a shard works is because it adds to the web, not just inflating it. Savants happen when this state happens too often, leaving the "Strands" of the Spirit web perpetually "dialated", thus warping the spirit web. Edit #2. Eyes are weird in the Cosmere. Between eyes turning red due to shards hacking other magic systems, and the fact that your eyes burn out when you get stabbed by a shardblade, it's pretty evident something weird is going on. I propose that eyes are somewhat a reflection of the Spiritual Realm. Not a perfect one. But think about it. When you look out of your eyes, that's *you*. Its you behind those eyes, more so than being behind your fingers, or your ears. So it kind of makes sense that eyes could be "windows to the soul." Eye color change appears to occur when a sentient spirit web overlays your own. Namely, spren on Roshar. I'm pretty sure eyes change permanently once you reach the 5th oath, and Nale seems to reflect that, because even when he summons both Blades, Szeth never mentioned any eye color change. However, this needs to be confirmed by WoB. The 5th oath thing would explain why bonding a dead blade changes your eyes as long as you are bonded to it, rather than only when you summon it, like the Sylblade or the Honorblades. Furthermore, Lighteye Radiant not changing colors makes sense, because they are descended from radiants. Rather than needing a Spren, when they were born, their spirit web imitated their parents- with Radiant eyes. From that point on, it would be genetic/spiritually genetic. This does lend some credence to my theory on how children's spirit webs develop. It needing to be a sentient spirit web explains why your eyes should not change color when you get spiked, or get a divine breath, or get a forging. The red eye thing makes sense, as a shard hacking the magics system would reflect in the spirit web. Although, I do wonder why red. Why not purple? In world, why does the red occur? I don't have any good ideas for explaining that, so I'll leave that alone. Oh, and I just had the idea that perhaps Radiant eye color reflects the color of their spren, but I would have to double check that to see if I'm just making that up. It certainly would work for Kaladin though. Also, Preservation has weird eyes, but this makes sense given that he literally has a SHARD on top of his once human spirit web. If the eyes are the windows to the soul, the eyes would definitely show something like that. One problem with the whole sentient spirit web idea is the Singers, but I think because the Singer's spirit webs are specifically made to adapt to spren, that unless you have a hacking thing (like Voidspren) the color of eyes won't change. Although, I will be VERY interested to see what color Venli's eyes will turn. Ok, now I get to the weird one. Shades. I *think* that the splinter of Ambition that hit Threnody is somewhat sentient, but usually doesn't actively control the shades it has invested. But when somebody breaks the rules (which I still don't have an explanation for), then the splinter takes over, turning their eyes from green to red. Also, I think the big chunk of the Splinter is the Evil, but that no longer pertains to the Spiritual Realm. Edit #3. Guess what, its time to discuss the Spiritual aspects of the Surges! This also is crop full of OB spoilers, because of how much spiritual stuff happens there. Some of them are more interesting than others, but here we go. Adhesion- stickiness. Also allows to make connection, which is very interesting use of that surge, Dalinar. Its also not a permanent change, apparently. Furthermore, I hypothesize that this surge is why the dramatic stuff occurs. The adhesion makes the realms stick together a little more, making big dramatic glowy lightshows when our MC swears their oaths. How the windrunners use this surge to control the winds... well I think this surge is one of the closest ones to Honor. Sticking things together, and atmospheric pressure... well essentially I think the winds are highly "adhesive", and kaladin is able to manipulate them through that. But thats not really important to the spiritual realm, so I'll move on. Gravitation- I'm not sure what spiritual aspects this has, besides how the surge actually is applied- lashings are just manipulations of one's connection to the planet. By connecting yourself in different directions, you create the basic lashing and stuff. Division- I guess this is just breaking spiritually stuff? We haven't seen this much on screen, but I imagine just like soulcasting you need enough Stormlight to overcome the spirit web of the thing you are targeting. Abrasion- The best thing I have for this is getting along well with people- or not. Again, we don't know much about this surge's other applications. Progression- finally something interesting. Regrowth works like all the other healing things, healing to one's cognitive ideal. It also accelerates growth of plants, which I imagine works by boosting their spirit webs or something or whatever. Illumination- This one is juicy. Shallan seems to almost create false spirit webs to coat her own. Her identity is becoming somewhat fragmented by her deicisions, but that is not a discussion for this thread. The important thing is that it is a lot like Forgery. I am very, VERY interested in seeing how Hoid puts this surge to use, along with his natural Yolish lightweaving. Also, her drawings- they seem to be connected to her, slightly invested. They are somewhat of a crutch for her, but I think the gist of it is that she is creating false spirit webs, temporary ones, very transient ones. But spirit webs nevertheless. Transformation- This is probably the most interesting of all the surges. It transforms one spirit web into another. It is also directly related to how complicated something is to make, in terms of how hard it is to soulcast. Soulcasting also seems to be a more spiritual thing- Shallan changes people. However, I'm not entirely sure how this works, or whether that is something that can even be actually harnessed. I think its most important spiritual aspect is being able to change a spirit web completely- while retaining a things shape. This is interesting, because that indicates that the "shape" is different from the identity of the object. The identity of the object is clearly changing, from rock to oil or whatever, but the volume and shape is still maintained. I imagine any differences in mass due to imperfect transformation of absolute mass (aka not every particle of mass adds up into the transformed product,) is just absorbed into the cost of the investiture. Transportation- I think Jasnah is using it wrong. She did something like what the corrupted oathgate did- the perpendicularity only went into the cognitive realm, NOT the spiritual. Essentially, I think she needs to figure out how to actually "bounce" off the spiritual realm, as I imagine it. In actuality, its basically just changing your spiritual aspect of "where I am right now" to a different where. I imagine once she figures this out, she will become even more OP than she already is. Also, I believe we will see more of this surge in book 4, especially as it will be Venli/Eshonai book, and her first surge she learns should be Transportation, not Cohesion. So hopefully we'll get some Roshar-hopping in whatever that book ends up being called. Cohesion- We basically haven't seen much of this surge, besides turning the ground to mush. I imagine it's just changing the fluidity of the object- not changing the objects identity, but making the shape part of the spirit web more moldable. Or something. Tension- We haven't seen this surge at all. It is probably similar to how Cohesion works, besides making things more stiff instead of making them into putty. Edit #4. Well it's been a while since I updated this post, but Oversleep got this awesome WoB that is begging me to unpack it. There's already a thread to discuss it, but I want to discuss some of the important pieces of it, and how it applies to my view of the Spirit Realm. There is also another WoB regarding my theory on Adonalsium that I'll talk about after this. Specifically, it talks about several things, the dichotomy of how things can be everywhere and yet somewhere at the same time. How can a Shard move? How does Autonomy create these odd Aspects? (Which his rambling seems to hint that I am right about Autonomy creating more minds to expand the amount of investiture that she can access). But what we really want to talk about is this Investiture spin. Which makes perfect sense, I'm pretty sure I've thought about it before, but this adds a whole new realm to how quantum investiture works. Ok, so essentially the spin is a state. A state of being. It's really weird in quantum physics. But let me put Brandon's words into my own, to see if I can better explain what I'm getting at. Adonalsium had all things under one spin, one mind, one soul. And when that mind was shattered along with its power, it split into different pieces, different ideal for different traits. These ideals are something that are hard to describe, leading to the interesting subject of naming the shards. But this idea of investiture having spin explains why the Shattering was so different from a splintering. Adonalsium was truly everything, and when it died, everything changed. When a shard dies, there isn't a fundamental change in the universe, that spin still exists. So, I am declaring Adonalsium officially and completely dead. I don't think it can come back. It would require all investiture to be tuned to a single spin again, which, frankly, seems impossible. Furthermore, this makes more sense than the spirit web explanation, although... I just had a brain wave of an idea regarding micro-spins, and that being how connection works, but I literally just thought of it, and so I'll move on and think about spin being related to connection and all that later. So, spin. I want to suggest that the corruption and mixing of investiture is simply a shard taking investiture thats one spin and forcing it to be another, and it not entirely working. It doesn't quite match, because the connection isn't there. Mixing investiture is weird, because you would have spins that don't sync up. But think of it this way- things that are similar are connected. So a similar spin would be connected to something else with a similar spin. These connections form the shard. And possibly, (micro spin) even human spirit webs. I feel like I'm riffing a bit, but this WoB is seriously huge. Entire books of talking about investiture? SIGN ME UP. I will eat that stuff like I eat nutella and cheezits (no, not at the same time). I understand why Sanderson struggles with explaining it quickly, because I think I understand what he's getting at, but its really hard to put it into words. I'll try one more time. With this explanation, the idea comes to mind a different way of explaining spirit webs- quantumly. Where the webs are made of Investits (the unit I just made up, don't judge), and that connection comes from being similar to one another. The more similar they are, the more connected they are. These connections make webs. Within the larger tunings, small adjustments are made that create different connections. This works in my head, and I don't still know how to describe it properly. It's like entangelment, but on a greater scale if that makes sense, where two particles are the same and so become entangled, except with connection its not just one pair but lots and lots of particles. And now I'm rambling again. Moving on, there was a WoB that essentially addressed the idea of Investiture and Adonalsium, as some people seem to think- in world- that investiture seeks sentience because it was a part of Adonalsium. I think this is a good idea, but doesn't work with the fundamental understanding of the origin of the universe (assuming it started like our own). I just don't see that Adonalsium was all investiture from the moment the Universe began. I think that that happened over time, that raw investiture compiled into Adonalsium, forming its infinite mind and soul. It makes more sense than instant formation, to me. Finally, because it came up on discord, relating to the shards intents- these things are spiritual ideals, aspects of Adonalsiums personality and of the forces of the universe. Of laws, of growth, of giving and change. These cannot be accurately described by a single word. The words that we use to call shards are approximations. Much like most of my explaining. Anyway, I hope my rambling explains something for you. Once again, most of it is speculation, but I think it is pretty on the nose as to how it works. TL;DR: Spirity Wirity Investy Webby Stuff.
  14. 5 points
    Hence why the best argument for Shalladin going forward is to articulate that there is evidence to support both ships, thus, Shallan is capable and interested in loving BOTH men, and it can be reasonably drawn from this that it is likely that she indeed WILL love both men over the course of this epic narrative.
  15. 5 points
    It occurs to me that when I went to the Shadows of Self book signing (the most recent one I could get to in UK) Brandon read the flashback chapter where he recruited Telib (I think) the archer assassin. And Sadeas makes a point of saying that Dalinar goes around recruiting enemies (what is he, the hero in Fire Emblem?) By the end of the book Dalinar has the storming Assassin-in-White recruited to his side with no effort and is working on a "voidbringer" radiant. Next book may see him recruit an Unmade. In hindsight that was such an informative chapter as it showed something that was the core of Dalinar's personality even back in the Blackthorn days and was an important foundation for his Unity mission. ...Shallan sealed an S rank relationship with Adolin... I can find a lot of strong similarities to Fire Emblem games here. I guess a few did come out while Oathbringer was being written ;P
  16. 5 points
    Shallan is the best one-time limited offer discount deal ever experienced in an epic fantasy: three characters for the price of one!
  17. 5 points
    These sailors were spren, and the father's body would be a shardblade in the physical realm.
  18. 5 points
    Dalinar should hire whoever was fixing Amaram's reputation to run his PR campaign, too. Or Olivia Pope.
  19. 4 points
    If any of you Utah or near-Utah residents want another go at Brandon, he just put two signings up on his website for later this month. Salt Lake City on the 16th, Orem on the 21st.
  20. 4 points
    I hadn't considered it pre-the Wit advice, but will see what I can find. I'm definitely going to it for the second half of OB, and I'l post it here I always associated Adolin with whitespines, given his WoR chapter called Whitespine Uncaged when he starts the 4v1 duel. A brief look at this just where I think it could be of reference though as I do a search I'm less certain about the Adolin symbolism. Or more certain that Adolin will go dark if I believe the symbolism I took a stab at interpreting what these could mean.... WoK Ch 39 Burned Into Her: Shallan notes scholars like to study "big, dynamic animals, like greatshells or whitespines" though she is interested in the shalebark/cremling symbiosis. Uh, this is easy, Shallan is not that into whitespines. WoR Ch 20 Coldness of Clarity: Shallan thinks the bandits see her as a mink wandering into the whitespine's den. Shallan is soon to be the mink wandering into the Kholin court. Ch 43 The Ghostbloods: Shallan likens visiting the Ghostbloods to walking into a whitespine's den. This is like going to the Kholin court for the first time. In both she is wearing Lightwoven disguises too. Ch 55 The Rules of the Game: Adolin compares Shallan hugging Wit to her hugging a whitespine. This is when they visit the captive whitespine and Shallan notes to Kaladin that whitespines don't do well in captivity. Shallan hugs Wit, just like Shallan hugs Adolin the whitespine. Adolin doesn't do well in captivity. (Dark Adolin....) Ch 56 Whitespine Uncaged: "Adolin attacked. He lept forward, sweeping with a barrage of strikes at Relis. Elit jumped away to curse as he did so. They were like men with spears prodding at a whitespine. And this whitespine was not yet caged." Obvious tying Adolin to whitespine Ch 64 Treasures: Kaladin imagines himself caged like the whitespine in the menagerie. Adolin is also in jail with Kaladin Ch 70 From a Nightmare: Shallan likens the chasm fiend to a whitespine as it exudes power, only more enormous and alien. I could way far out here about how Kaladin is the chasm fiend (which they see together) and Adolin is the whitespine (which those two see together) and both are powerful and Kaladin is more enormous and alien. This might be stretching it even for me But more seriously, Adolin does exude power. Ch The Four: Sadeas tells Adolin he and Dalinar are two whitespines circling each other ("it's me or him") right before Adolin kills him. Adolin is actually the whitespine who made the kill. OB Ch 22 The Darkness Within: Ialai mentions whitespine behavior in reference to who killed Sadeas as someone who would be lurking nearby. Shallan notes this means "Why have you returned to the scene of the kill, Kholin?" This was when I really linked whitespine and Adolin since it was done explicitly again. Obviously Adolin is the one who killed Sadeas so this is him. He is actually lurking nearby. Ch 63 Within the Mirror: Shallan notes cities are not civilized places, no more than a whitespine was domesticated just because a collar is around its neck. More Adolin going dark symbolism Ch 83 Crimson to Break: Adolin compares going into Kholinar palace with its spearman like a whitespine's den. Well, he is taking back his own den... Let me know what you think. There are two extremely obvious places where Adolin is overtly referenced as a whitespine, so that does say to me this is something intentional. However, I don't know how much I believe it unless Adolin is going to go dark... I apologize for double-posting but I don't know how to do quotes from posts of multiple pages... @Ookla the Grey can you combine me? (And feel free to educate me!) I'm so torn. I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark. But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this... This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions... Do not have my mind made up here. I don't have many opinions in the Shallan baby fight (maybe just because I feel like it's so unlikely? I feel this way about the Syladin stuff too), but I wanted to point out that so far Brandon hasn't gone this route. Vin and Elend marry end of WoA, there's a one-year time skip and then all of HoA and nary a mention of possible baby or a baby made. That's two years of sex! Same for Breeze and Allariane (who Brandon notes in annotations are married in spirit since Scadrial at that time didn't really have marriage - neatly avoiding premarital sex, lol), and we've got three years of sex going on there. It may be a natural progression IRL, but so far (that I've read) it doesn't seem to be something Brandon has explored or necessarily even sees as the assumed next step after marriage.
  21. 4 points
    Very Interesting points OP. I do have a counter though. If we had read the series completely chronologically... Would Dalinar: the woman killer, the child murderer, the worst husband ever, etc have deserved redemption? I did not like Elhokar as a character but I did like his arc in Oathbringer. I saw he was trying, and he wanted to do better. He was starting to develop some compassion, and his growth as a character was exciting to me. Part of me really does wish I could have seen where it would have gone. That being said his death does add much more to the story than his life does.
  22. 4 points
    Currently, Szeth's idea of right and wrong is whatever Dalinar says; he isn't going to be some vigilante lawman in Urithiru. However, I think all of Shallan's brothers are huge liabilities for her in different ways, possibly Balat most of all. I do not think it is a good thing they are there, and I am really worried about the trouble they can cause Shallan. She has enough problems already, and I can see a myriad of possibilities from Jushu or Balat embarrassing her, the presence of her brothers pulling her back into the past (not a good place for Shallan), to the Ghostbloods using them as leverage. Hopefully, this will be a personal problem that Adolin can actually help with, because Shallan needs to fix her other problems on her own.
  23. 4 points
    I love Shallan! I love her awkward teenagerdom. (FTR, I think BS does a pretty good job of representing teenagers and the combo of complexity and simplicity, maturity and immaturity, bravery and insecurity that I think is a hallmark of that time in most of our lives--Shallan is no different in this regard.) I love what a quick study she is and her innate drive to protect her brothers and to put others at their ease, either by making jokes or otherwise. I like how she sticks up for Adolin when Kal mocks him in WOR. I like how she doesn't get everything right. I like how her talent has become a source of her power, even if it's "traditionally" seen as a talent that isn't useful (drawing). I like her vulnerability and her strength. I just think she's a well-written character, and she's very relatable to me. And I'm glad to see her making progress at the end of OB. (And, I mean, an entire army of lightwoven characters? Which she sustains alone? That's unbelievable. Going after an unmade--touching it! Also unbelievable. She's pretty badass. lol)
  24. 4 points
    I think the meaning of that passage was that the spren's father was a Deadeye and that if unconfined in Shadesmar, he would naturally migrate to the location of his body (a.k.a. the shardblade he represents) in the Physical realm (or at least the reflection of that location in Shadesmar). The "person who stole his body" is the shardbearer who is bonded to (or carries) the shardblade that is his father's physical manifestation. Ahhh, ninja'd by @Draigon. Oh well.
  25. 4 points
    I am partway done with a Writeup. This one will actually be up in a few hours! (The write up will tell you that a Coinshot killed both Road and Megasif. Hazekillers killed Straw) He slowly dropped coins, gliding over through the mists towards the first of his targets. His target was sitting bellow him, as he soared overhead. With practiced precision the assassin dropped a coin, and pushed on it as hard as he could, and the brain embedded itself within his target's skull. The assassin had more metal than normal, and he was going to make use of it. He continued his flight, to the other side of the city, and repeated the process leaving Thirmul Haht, and Lawrence Arthur dead in his wake. A shadowy figure gave the order, sending the group of Hazekillers off to kill his specified target. He was sure to give them specific instructions to take the long way around, giving him plenty of time to... Ray through off his hood, bathing himself in the light of a torch, standing a solemn vigil against the mists. Footsteps pounded down behind him, and he turned to face the oncoming threat, a dueling cane in hand, and a small book in his other. He had already accepted death, welcomed it, even. But that did not mean he wouldn't go down fighting. Roadwalker has died! He was a Noble Pewter Misting! Megasif has died! He was a Noble Nothing! Straw has died! He was a Noble Copper Misting! This cycle will end https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LG40%3A+D5+End&iso=20171208T19&p1=4975 Player list (Actually updated): Support counts(in house order): Not here yet It's broken
  26. 4 points
    This concept bothers me just because of how close a Radiant and their spren are. In OB it was noted that the Nahel bond was even closer than a romantic union since it is a bonding/mixing of souls (I believe Notum explained this when they were on the boat in Shadesmar.) I see Radiants and spren as pieces of one another and thinking about them being romantically involved just seems...wrong. Also, think of how horrifically complicated that could get if the relationship falls apart and then the Radiant is forced to use their Exblade while in battle. Worst breakup in the history of mankind... I like Syl and Kaladin's relationship the way it is, an extremely intimate bond that goes beyond friendship but is platonic. Plus, Syl trying to hook Kaladin up with women is gold!
  27. 4 points
    The feel like the Problem With Szeth will be covered during the one year time skip. He showed up in the midst of a cataclysmic battle and fought alongside the Radiants and Thaylens when they most needed it, so there's some reputation cleansing going on thanks to that move. They're also in the midst of the end of the world, so at that point there's probably a bit of "beggars can't be choosers" mentality going on. I'm sure there will be hesitancy and mistrust, but Szeth will have a year to prove himself before the start of the next book. I do hope it's addressed realistically and not just glossed over. And if all else fails, Nightblood can just give a rousing speech about DESTROYING EVIL and win everyone over to their side through a combination of charm and sheer horror.
  28. 4 points
    This concept has always felt very incestuous to me. Like Lannister level incestuous. It grosses me out.
  29. 4 points
    It just hit me, how neatly many of our complaints would be addressed if only leaving Sadeas' murder plot aside was intentional. Wouldn't that leave Adolin somewhat in the place of all those who gave up the guilt for their actions and fell to Odium as a result. "I will take responsibility for what I have done" just sounds so bitter in the context of Adolin.
  30. 4 points
    Seems like Peter Pan and Tinkerbell hooking up to me.
  31. 4 points
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Shallan is the last person who should care about oaths. Hers is the order that doesn't have oaths, after all, but instead powers up with self-awareness. He's got his out already built-in.
  32. 4 points
    Probably my favorite was the description of all of the newly changed parshmens behaviors. Especially the Azish who decided to formally lodge a formal complaint as opposed to outright war.
  33. 4 points
    My guess would be: "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can".
  34. 3 points
    I was sort of indifferent to Shallan after WoK, and started to see her potential in WoR but I really dislike her right now. Not as a character she's fantastic as a character, but as a person. She's flat out abusive to Kaladin in several situations, even before the Helaran issue was known. You can see her abusive father coming out in her in these situations, and unlike bridge 4 calling out Kaladin for his BS attitude sometimes no one calls Shallan out on it. I don't want to get too much into the nuances of this but I see her racism as more vile than Kaladin's, whose anger comes directly from abuse and observation even if it's not justified, while Shallan truly sees herself as above dark eyes. Obviously there's a lot of everyone being racist but for me her version of it is far worse than a lot of the other characters. Honestly I really hope she gets a bit more of a backseat treatment in book 4 sort of like Kaladin did in book 3. I just don't like reading her chapters anymore, and it has nothing to do with how she's written, I just have lost all sympathy for her. I pity her, I can understand her situation and see how she's doing the best she can but I can still wish there was less of her in the future.
  35. 3 points
    Brandon feels overly restricted by the limited potential of "print" as a storytelling medium, presents the 7th Volume of the Stormlight Archive entirely via interpretive dance.
  36. 3 points
    I love Shallan. She is a wonderfully written character and, honestly, she has inspired me a lot. I learned to draw way better because of her, I learned to pay more attention to my surroundings, I learned to try to see the best in people. .. I relate to her a lot. Even though I don't have the extent of having full separate personalities, I do have trouble with being unable to be myself around people. I am almost always acting - pretending - around people, because I don't want anyone to see the flaws in me. For me, it got so bad once, that when someone told me to be myself, I kind of froze and said, "i. . . Don't know how." Even though Shallan hasn't yet gotten better with this problem (we don't even know if she even will), seeing how those bad things could happen still encouraged me to try to be better, and has inspired me to start being more genuine. I just love her, and it is really refreshing to see others that do too
  37. 3 points
    My opinion is, that Sanderson is trying to build a compelling narrative and not a world simulator. I'll be honest, if Shallan and Adolin have a child in SA4 and they just send it away to some wet nurse without any feelings on that matter it just unrealistic. Shallan is a main character and becoming a mother is a huge event in one's lifetime. If it has next to no impact, because the child is constantly away anyway, then why have it in the first place? Same goes for Adolin. He is the Kholin highprince, he has responsibilities, he is probably expected to lead the effort to reclaim the Kholin lands in Alethkar. I don't think, he'd have time to play stay-at-home-dad either. So the child is some spec of irrelevance in the background? The child of a main character. Then have them have a child at that time. Guys, I don't care about whatever is normal on Roshar. Roshar is in turmoil, there is a state of emergency (= not normal anymore), the world is being overrun by angry singers at the command of one of the scariest Shards in the universe. Of course, it would be very sensible to set a child into that world. Especially, when both parents have integral parts in the defense of this world and could die at any minute in the conflict.
  38. 3 points
    "....he didn't deserve redemption..." This is something I struggle with. I think of Darth Vader, a mass murderer, one who betrayed those who trusted him, blew up planets, etc... and I'm supposed to just forget about all of those things because he finally did something right and stopped the Emporer? Not going to happen. The word "redeem" literally means to buy back. Redemption isn't complete until all wrongs have been righted. This is literally impossible for us humans to obtain. But we recognize when people are on the track to righting past wrongs. We often give the benefit of the doubt to those have started on that path. In Elhokar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war. Can he right those wrongs? It would take an extreme amount of change in his life. In Dalinar's case, he is guilty of murdering innocents, and waging a genocidal war (at the behest of his king). Can he right those wrongs? It is still taking a lot of effort on his part, but the fact he keeps standing up and doing better tells me he is trying.
  39. 3 points
    After all the Shallan negativity, this thread is a huge releaf.
  40. 3 points
    I have the sneaking suspicion that we might have already heard this oath. When Kaladin and Elhokar reach the queen in Kholinar, they end up in a standoff. They don't know how much time they have before the Parshendi get there, Elhokar is holding a terrified little Gav, and Aesudan is obviously possessed by Yelig-nar. Still Elhokar is trying to talk sense into his wife. And then this happens So I think that last sentence is the basic concept of the 4th Windrunner Ideal. It's not necessarily about prioritizing certain people over others, it's about being aware of your own limits, doing the best you can and letting go of the people you can't help, without regret. And Kal understands this to a certain level, by the end of the book he clearly knows it, but can't swear by it yet. He can tell Elhokar to do it, he can be more objective in that situation since he has no attachment to the queen, but he can't do it himself. He freezes in the stairwell against the Parshendi and Moash, and same at the end when he doesn't speak the oath, when he can't let go of Dalinar. Can't let go of that feeling of being responsible for everyone. So yeah, in my opinion that's the next oath for Kal
  41. 3 points
    Good video. That being said, it is pretty clear from that video that facts do matter, it is just that you need to present them from the perspective of a common goal. I mean using their vaccine example, vaccines are meant to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, polio etc. That is fact based, not opinion based. It is just that by presenting it as a "we should do this" rather than "you should do this" you can get more parents to agree to vaccinate. No-one will get anywhere by just saying "I think you should just believe my opinion" - we need the evidence to be available to us, or it is very easy to disregard it. That is why I keep asking for in-book quotes and references regarding support for Shadolin, but no-one seems to be helping me out.
  42. 3 points
    At least one of the Kholin brothers dies. Sja-Anat's betrayal will be forced into the open and she is eventually destroyed by Odium; after she has gifted the KR with nine corrupted Nahel spren (so eight more after Glys) to help counterbalance Odium's influence with the unmade. Kaladin will eventually fight Moash in the contest of champions, winning a tight battle in which he swears the fifth ideal. Dalinar takes up Honor's place in full by the end of the front five as Odium is sent back to Braize for a time. Kaladin will end the series unmarried and uninvolved romantically. Shallan will still be married if Adolin survives; she will have mostly resolved her identity issues if he lives. If he dies...I see her drifting off into an uncomfortable limbo Azure and Zahel will meet up and finally agree to a long term relationship Nightblood will kill either Szeth or Lift (or both) and experience a crisis of self; Zahel will regain possession of his "friend" afterwards Jasnah will become the greatest ruler in the history of Alethkar, having retaken Kholinar and established an equitable peace with the Listener people who survived Jasnah will also declare that she will hand over the rulership of Alethkar once Elhokar's son is of age The world will not fully be at peace, as the Everstorm will continually attempt to return the Fused, but the surviving Listeners will have mostly learned from Venli how to bond lesser spren to avoid being taken against their will Many of the remaining Heralds will have died by the time the final battles happen, in the same way that Jezrien did. Ishar and Nale will both have gone over to Odium, but will have been betrayed by Odium to a death like Jezrien's to try to force the Oathpact to be over. Taln will have recovered his wits by the the end, either from healing or sheer Awesomeness. He will agree to go back to Damnation for as long as he can handle it one final time. Ash will be the one to send him back and then will send herself back as well. Together they will hold for fifteen years. Taravangian's work with the Diagram will have been shown to be a massive work of disinformation on Cultivation's part to mislead both Mr T and Odium into thinking that it serves Odium's interest when in reality it's shaping what T does in such a way that he inadvertently causes Odium's stratagems to fail. Wit/Hoid will be a knight of the Third Ideal by the end of the front five, but will once again be able to exit the system once Kaladin wins. When the back five starts, Jasnah is about to hand over the king/queenship to Elhokar's son. Wit will return because of his fortune/luck sense. Odium is back and this time manages to take out Cultivation, but Dalinar takes up Cultivation before it can be splintered and then uses their combined strength to overcome Odium, taking his shard as well. The surgebinding wars occurring around this destroy Roshar not in totality, but in a way that forces the inhabitants to leave. The remaining Heralds are released from the Oathpact. Lift becomes the new self-proclaimed Queen of Awesomeness and Feasting after having distracted Odium's attention (leading to his death) with a well timed comment about his butt and stabbing him with a Shardfork. This is all totally true and awesome.
  43. 3 points
    If I was a Rosharan, and some guy who has the Assassin in White as a bodyguard was suggesting people join him against funny-looking parshmen with scary eyes, the I'd join join him. Just because, well, you know...
  44. 3 points
    Epic battles have a way of proving Dalinar correct. I suspect the reaction of the other monarchs to the events at the end of OB will be similar to that of the Alethi highprinces after the end of WoR. They'll still have their own agendas, but also a big fat dose of "ok, you were right about all that, and are also completely badass".
  45. 3 points
    I read the last page before i got there the honest way... and i make others do the same. I AM A TERRIBLE PERSON.
  46. 3 points
    Addiction: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance When you are by definition addicted to Brandon Sanderson books.
  47. 3 points
    So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding. United obviously means, the state Shallan and Adolin are in now. And the new beginnings of that state sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" I think that "love" is supposed to be Shallan and is the addressee. Or that their love just defies truth, but I'm still sure, that Shallan is the addressee of the ketek. Basicially, the marriage, as that is supposed to be the "new beginning", tells Shallan to keep defying the truth, which would correlate with the ending of OB. The imperative ("Truth defy!" or "Defy truth!", I think the switch is a poetic device here to make it form the ketek) is indicative here. Though I don't know what to make of: "Sing beginnings, new unity." That Shallan needs a new beginning to find new unity within herself? Could that be foreshadowing, that Adolin dies? Because the marriage will keep her from accepting truth? Or is it just, that beginnings sing to the new unity/marriage. @SLNC You know I'm with you on most foreshadowing points, but apart from the bit that Shallan is love, the rest is both of us having wishful thinking here. For any person reading this, we do not mean that Jasnah knows anything about the future and thus foreshadowing the marriage, but her intention is to wish a happy marriage to the newly weds. We are just exploring the possibility that through the text itself, BS takes the opportunity to foreshadow the future of the marriage, because it's written in a way that it has a dual interpretation. From the rest of the excerpts in OB, I'm pretty sure he is plainly trolling us. So, how I interpret it is: part a : United (both of you Shallan and Adolin), new beginnings sing (your marriage celebrates): "Defying truth (defy all the problems that reality might raise), love (just love. it is the solution to everything). part b: , love (love is powerful). Truth defy (it can defy reality)! " Sing beginnings (promise a beginning) , new unity (of a new unity). So the part a is for Adolin, part b is for Kalladin, with both of them focusing on the word love, who is obviously Shallan. (back to my theory that women are of cultivation)
  48. 3 points
    Well the other option is Syl cheering and offering advice...
  49. 3 points
    i must be in the minority, i felt this was easily the weakest of the 3 stormlight books so far. it was still good, dont get me wrong. but it just wasnt as good a read as the other two. he did ALOT of world building in this book, which is great, but i think thats why so many people are so high on it. i have 3 major problems which detracted from my enjoyment: 1- the shallan chapters were just annoying to read, and didnt feel at any way earned. she went from a strong character to one teetering on the edge, cause reasons. easily the weakest part of the book. which is surprising, i enjoyed her alot in my recent re-read. 2- While the payoff for Dalinar's arc was great (bringing the 3 realms together was the best part of the book) i felt the underlying tension was weak. he didnt *actually* kill his wife, she lived up to her reputation of being dull of wit by sneaking into the city Dalinar was there to attack. like This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules? i actually found myself agreeing with younger Dalinar, which i really dont think was the intent here. i can understand why Dalinar would have so much strife for this, but it didnt come across to myself as i was reading. i couldnt empathize, which lowered impact it had on me. 3- this is the most minor, but while i understand these are broken people...enough is enough. we need more Adolin characters that arent neck high in angst to break up the flow. and i really hope he stays on the path hes on regarding murdering sadeas. that being, sure he can have the occasional moment of guilt, but he seems to realize it had to be done. i really hope he doesnt backslide. on the positive side, Kaladin continues to be strong. i continue to think he is the best written protagonist ive ever read. the Brandalanch at the end was really good, as usual, but again not as good as the other two books` Brandalanches at the end. all in all, Brandon Sanderson has easily earned any benefit of the doubt required and continues to be my favorite author. i'll be curious to see if people are still so glowing about this book once the shine of it being new wears off, or if it really is just me in regarding it as the weakest of the books so far.
  50. 3 points
    I agree. Their relationship has always been a bit adolescent and immature to me, and Kaladin is way too mature (even though he makes stupid decisions sometimes) for Shallan. Adolin and Shallan make much more sense, and throughout the book, I absolutely rooted for them and against her and Kaladin. Adolin seeing the "real" Shallan and accepting her for all her flaws and her insecurities worked well for me. I still don't like her much, but I like her more with him. Another refreshing part about the love triangle story was how much Adolin and Kaladin respected each other and didn't turn it into some sort of testosterone fueled disagreement. Their friendship is refreshing, and it could have turned out extremely clichéd.
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