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I'll put it in a spoiler tag in case someone doesn't want to know: Edited to add the link to the reading. It starts about 3 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlDHUCemF9U

You know, I've had the same exact thought recently. As someone who joined up right after WOR (when everyone still hated the prospect of Shalladin but for 'we want no silly triangles' reasons), then posted/lurked for a bit and went away completely for a year and a half, this shift is really interesting to see. This has definitely been my impression, both on here and on the Tor.com comment section. That said I don't believe Adolin is more popular, it's just that has a more vehement fanbase. As someone suggested above, it's probably because Adolin fan (of which I am one) were getting tired of the 'Adoin is gonna go eeeeeevil' conspiracy. That said, one thing that really baffles me about the current conception of the character is the sense of... can I say victimism? (sorry can't find a better suited English word!) that I see in a lot of the discussions. The current fandom depiction of Adolin is as a character is of someone who has it bad both in-universe and among the fandom; most readers don't care about him, Brandon doesn't care about him, Dalinar prefers Elhokar to his own son, and so on. A lot of posts reference that, even when it's not related to the discussion going on. And as someone who really likes Adolin... is great that he's getting so much love but, as mentioned, I'm a bit puzzled. People act like he's both a very niche character who only 17 people like, instead of one of the main viewpoints, but also like he should be a main character and anything else is a disservice. That said, I love reading about Adolin so I'm happy he's getting all this space in discussions. But the tone is a bit odd. This so much. Can we keep this thread around and come back to it every Tuesday? I used to think I had what it takes to be a shipper (I'm on tumblr and everything) but apparently I know nothing. That said, I agree with @Starlathat the premise of the original post does a disservice to Kaladin's character. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the intention, but saying 'Shalladin is fine because it will make Shadolin better in the long run' throws Kaladin's character development under the bus for the sake of furthering Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Can't we just say 'this tangled romantic situation is good because it's going to lead to character growth for all involved'? Yes, Shallan is traumatized, but Kaladin is traumatized too, arguably just as much, and he deserves better than to be a prop for someone else's character development while not getting any support himself. So I hope they will not 'flirt for a few chapters' then stop, because for someone with the sort of issues Kaladin has the simple fact of acknowledging (lighteyed) Shallan in a romantic sense means making himself pretty vulnerable. If they do go there, it'd better be a real relationship, not a flirtation, no matter how long or short, and be a positive development for both characters involved. 'Shallan loved Adolin all along' is... something I don't believe either the story or the characters need. You can get a romantic Shallan/Adolin endgame in some other way. @mariapapadia PLEASE tell me you meant 'fra i due litiganti, il terzo gode'

I don't believe for a second that illusion was anything more than Shallan lying to herself. Her childhood being happy and perfect is, in my opinion, Shallan's most deeply rooted lie to herself.

NOTE: This is pretty much copied from my post on reddit. Just wanted to see if anyone here had feedback on it. How does Jasnah know Wit/Hoid? First, she definitely does know him. When they meet up at the end of WoR, they clearly know each other. Furthermore, she already knew him during the events of TWoK, since on Page 571 (Paperback), she says However, the timing of the two of them knowing each other is a bit iffy. We know that Shallan had been chasing Jasnah for six months before finding her in Kharbranth. She was following Jasnah on a ship, so it seems unlikely that Jasnah could have been at the Shattered Plains or in Kholinar at this time, both of which are landlocked. It seems most likely that this time was all spent around the Tarat Sea, since Shallan presumably left from near Vedenar, visited Dumadari (following Jasnah), and ended up in Kharbranth. Meanwhile, Hoid only became the King's Wit recently. Specifically, Adolin thinks The key phrase here is some months. Definitely more than 1 month, but also less than a year. A year on Roshar is only ten months, so this leaves a pretty slim window for him to have met Jasnah at the Shattered Plains or in Kholinar while he was Wit. This leaves three possibilities. He was Wit for over 6 months, and met Jasnah at the Shattered Plains. This is the most boring and, sadly, I think the most likely. Still it is not definite. We only know for sure that Jasnah was travelling for 6 months, but it seems like a big coincidence that she would start travelling at the same time as Shallan started looking for her. It's more likely that she already had been travelling for longer (If anybody can find info on how long Jasnah had been researching the Voidbringers, it would be very helpful here). The window for them to meet at the Shattered Plains is pretty narrow. Hoid met Jasnah while she was travelling. From Hoid's conversation with Elhokar after the greatshell hunt [274 (PB)] it seems that he hasn't spent all of his time in the camps. Maybe he met Jasnah while she was researching. I can't think of a reason why he would be in the Tarat Sea himself, but he's Hoid. His reasons are mysterious. This is a definite possibility. They met before he became the King's Wit. This is definitely the most interesting possibility. When they talk in WoR, they both seem very cosmere aware, and they also know that each other are aware of it. This could mean that they met, not through Elhokar, but through their mutual supernatural affiliations. Maybe Jasnah was the one who suggested Hoid as the King's Wit. It raises a lot of possibilities. Afterwords, I found some more information that I believe makes this theory stronger. Shallan says to Kabsal that Jasnah had been travelling for two years. This is a significant extension over the 6 months that was previously established for her research. This almost certainly means that she started her research before Hoid has become King's Wit, virtually eliminating the possibility that 1. is true. I don't have the page for this, but during a message conversation with Dalinar Jasnah refused to return to the Shattered Plains until she finished her research, meaning that she is unlikely to have been back there while she was researching the voidbringers. This fits in with her character, since there are unlikely to be scholastic resources at the warcamps. This is reinforced when Shallan thinks: Some commenters on reddit pointed out that Jasnah refers to him as Wit, not Hoid, which I feel means it is very possible that she was the one who sent him to Elhokar to become the King's Wit.

When before every bout at fencing you talk to your sword, and remember that you sadly did not eat chicken, and don't have your dead mother's lucky necklace.

Hey all, Been slowly making my way deeper into the mysteries of the Cosmere. Been a Sanderson fan for a while, but hadn't really gone too far down the rabbit holes until Oathbreaker started getting close and found myself getting sucked further and further in. Glad to be a part of the community and looking forward to more great stories.

I'm sorry for being so nitpicky bit actually... I'm pretty sure most people will agree with me that the fandom was never particularly pro-Shalladin (it's even in the first post and nobody else felt the need to disagree with it so far). I signed up immdiately after WOR came out, and everything I said comes from threads I have read and not impressions I formed later. That's not even counting the boards at Tor and reddit, or the fact that just yesterday people felt the need to put the possibility of this relationship among the things that should never happen in OB. It's always been pretty close between people who actually 'shipped' each, but the amount of people who felt the need to go out of their way to repeat how awful love triangles are is really pretty big, and very vocal. Again, sorry to nitpick but this is exactly what I meant when I said that a sizeable portion of Adolin fans/Shadolin shippers feels the need to support the narrative that Adolin/Shadolin is an unpopular character/ship and doesn't have many fans. That's not the case.

And I have to apologize for this one... Well that was more than I expected! I really only had the first 2 in mind when I started!

I also believe that there is something extremely significant about the striations in the walls of Urithiru. And I think their significance is tied to the deeper secrets of Urithiru, not merely some trigger effect they have on Shallan and her repressed memories. The following lines from Chapter 13 of Oathbringer jumped out at me in particular, and I took special note of them: A few things stood out to me: - the repeated references to darkness, whether it be the strata or tunnels twisting towards darkness, or the ceiling of the market looming over the people; - the twisting strata are repeatedly described as "lines of madness" and "mesmerising", suggesting an effect on the human mind; - the fact that Shallan didn't realise that she'd made over twenty drawings, suggesting, that she has herself either been mesmerised, or lost some memories of seeing the walls and drawing them. I know Shallan is an expert at repressing memories, but I don't believe this memory loss is related to her past. Rather, I agree much more with the idea that the patterns are some form of Urithiru defence mechanism. My personal guess is that they aren't a code, disguising information directly, but act as a sort of optical lock, hiding certain parts of Urithiru from discovery by non-Radiants. We have been led to believe that little valuable information has been discovered in Urithiru because it is extremely large. But perhaps the real reason is that the important parts are hidden in plain sight. Shallan has stumbled across several tunnels that lead into darkness -- a foreboding image, but one that might simply suggest that no one has ventured inside and "switched the lights on" so to speak. The only evidence of these darkened tunnels are her sketches -- she has no memory of them, and presumably no one else does either. But her sketches, and perhaps Shallan's developing powers, are no doubt the key to unlocking them. In fact, when we read thise lines back again, that series of sketches might form a map, starting with "a corridor she'd passed through the other day", perhaps near the "large market cavern", and then progressing through a sequence of darkened tunnels leading to a room where the strata "coiled about itself in a mesmerising manner". Could Shallan have already discovered the way to Urithiru's library, for example, only to have the memory erased by the mesmerising strata?

He didn't ask for her most precious memory. This is what he asked for: Also: Shallan is more than aware that this isn't real.

Hey guys, so I'm not sure if this is the kind of content you want to see, but I thought it would be fun! You see, I'm not smart enough to contribute to the amazing fan theories, so this is my contribution (; Anyways, so if you're not familiar with the Myer Briggs Type Indicator, it's basically a set of 16 personality types that everyone falls under. (take the test, it's fun) I decided I would try to assign these traits to the Stormlight characters as best I could. If you are familiar (or lowkey obsessed) with MBTI, I hope you can relate with this! Here goes: Kaladin - ISFJ, The Defender. First off, I know the cover image for ISFJ is a smiling, kind woman and that is the exact opposite image that we associate with our boy Kal. But, to quote the article, "Though sensitive, Defenders have excellent analytical abilities; though reserved, they have well-developed people skills and robust social relationships; and though they are generally a conservative type, Defenders are often receptive to change and new ideas." That seems pretty accurate. To break down the different letters, the I stands for Introverted vs Extroverted. We can all agree that Kal is Introverted. S stands for Sensory or obServant vs intuitive. I think as a surgeon, Kal is pretty Sensory. F stands for Feeling vs Thinking, meaning he processes most of his information through emotion. I'd say Kal is a pretty hotheaded guy who doesn't really think before he acts. J means Judging over Perceiving. He is logical and judges situations without the bias of perception. Shallan - ISFP, The Adventurer. I think this is a perfect match. At first I was tempted to say INTP, the Logician, but I think Shallan is more SF than NT. As an artist, she is very Sensory, and as Shallan, she is more of a Feeling person than a Thinking person. She uses the Thinking side of her personality a lot, but her emotions have so much control over her and so much say in her decision-making. As the article says, "Adventurers enjoy upsetting traditional expectations with experiments in beauty and behavior – chances are, they’ve expressed more than once the phrase 'Don’t box me in!'" Shallan most definitely hates being boxed in and trapped, due to her childhood experiences. Another spot-on quote says, "When faced with criticism, it can be a challenge for people with this type to step away from the moment long enough to not get caught up in the heat of the moment." Passionate insult battles, anyone? Adolin - ESFJ, The Consul. I find it hilarious that Adolin and Kaladin are almost identical in personality type, with only the E/I switched. Adolin is the Consul, most definitely. The article says that "Discussing scientific theories or debating European politics isn’t likely to capture Consuls’ interest for too long. Consuls are more concerned with fashion and their appearance, their social status and the standings of other people." That rings a bell to me. We can see that Adolin is a Feeling character rather than a Thinking character. However, he is a Judging character, because he has the innate ability to see people without bias. (Amaram, Sadeas, Kaladin, his dad) Renarin - ISTJ, The Logistician. Honestly, I don't really know Renarin's character too well, so this is a ballpark guess. I am positive that Renarin is Introverted, and I am not sure about the Sensory, but it seems right to me. He is very practical, so I can see him being Sensory. He is definitely a Thinking character, but we don't really know if he's Judging or Perceiving. For now, however, I think Judging is a good guess. Dalinar - ENFJ, The Protagonist. Dalinar is a natural born leader and is amazing at handling people. These traits put him as the Protagonist. "Protagonists radiate authenticity, concern and altruism, unafraid to stand up and speak when they feel something needs to be said... Protagonists easily see people’s motivations and seemingly disconnected events, and are able to bring these ideas together and communicate them as a common goal with an eloquence that is nothing short of mesmerizing." Honestly, the accuracy of this is astounding and a bit creepy. I think Dalinar is the Protagonist poster child. Also, this little quote here, "The interest Protagonists have in others is genuine, almost to a fault – when they believe in someone, they can become too involved in the other person’s problems, and place too much trust in them." Does that sound like a certain Sadeas vs Dalinar situation to you? Bonus note - because parents tend to pass on portions of their personality traits to their kids, we can guess that Shshshsh, Dalinar's mystery wife, is IST-. We can guess that she's IST because Renarin got the I and the T from somewhere and both Adolin and Renarin have an S that didn't come from Dalinar. We don't really know the J/P, because it seems Dalinar passed the J to both Adolin and Renarin. She could be either. Jasnah - ENTJ, The Commander. Jasnah is purely the Commander. The only thing that might be up for debate is the E vs the I, but I think she is more Extroverted than Introverted. She is definitely a Thinking and Judging type, because of her scholarly nature. I think she is iNtuitive over Sensory, but I think we might not know her well enough to discern that. For now, however, I'm sticking with ENTJ. The funny thing is, Shallan is the exact opposite of her, being ISFP, yet the way they interact with others is strikingly similar. Navani - INTP, The Logician. The tagline for the Logician is "Innovative inventors with an unquenchable thirst for knowledge." To me, this describes Navani perfectly. She is the amazingly smart scientist, the adorable nerd and the creative inventor. Navani is an introverted type, but she is so strong around people that we only ever see that side of her around Dalinar. She is an NT, like Jasnah, but she processes information through Perception rather than Judging. This sounds surprising since she is a scientist, but she is a creative and an inventor rather than a scholar. Bonus note - with the info that we have about Jasnah and Navani, we can guess that Gavilar was an E--J. Knowing the little that we know about Gavilar, we can assume he is a Protagonist, like Dalinar. Hoid as Wit - ENTP, the Debater. Hoid is honestly so hard to figure out. This is not my most confident guess, so if you have a better guess please let me know! (Keep in mind we're talking about Hoid as Wit) Wit is definitely Extroverted, moving through the crowds with ease and making fun of talking to people with confidence. "Debaters don’t [play devil's advocate] because they are trying to achieve some deeper purpose or strategic goal, but for the simple reason that it’s fun. No one loves the process of mental sparring more than Debaters, as it gives them a chance to exercise their effortlessly quick wit, broad accumulated knowledge base, and capacity for connecting disparate ideas to prove their points." This sounds like Wit to me. His iNtuitiveness allows him to create beautiful stories that apply to other people's specific situations, while his Perception allows him to poke fun at others with scary accuracy. Because he is a Thinking type, he is analytical and has a pretty good reign on his emotions. Bonus! Syl - ENFP, The Campaigner - Syl is ENFP all the way. She's got the childlike wonder and Perception and the iNtuitiveness that guides her decisions as honorspren in what Feels wrong and right. She is almost the opposite of Kaladin, yet their ideals are very similar. I believe this is what attracted her to Kaladin. Pattern - INTP, The Logician. Pattern, our adorable, miniscule scholar! He is the same Personality type as Navani, INTP. We see his Perception in how he views the world, and his iNtuitiveness and Thought through how he learns and applies those worldviews. He is similar to Shallan, but she is an SF and he is an NT. She an artist in her core, but she loves scholarship, and that is what drew Pattern to her. That's it for now! I hope it was understandable to those who have no clue what the MBTI types are :? I tried to do as many characters as I could, but if you want me to expand on this one let me know what characters to do! Also, if you would like to suggest a change in one I did, feel free-- I'd love to hear your opinions on this! Also, if you have any suggestions for Wit's personality that would be awesome (; Let me know your personality type! I'm INFP, and I'd love to chat with y'all about it. Here's the website where I got all my info, and be sure to take the test! (It's free, fun, and it will tell you things about yourself that are creepily accurate) I may do one for Mistborn! If you would like that, let me know. That's all, Catie

I think Kaladin's next oath will have something to do with leadership, the other Windrunner attribute - we haven't seen any oaths about that yet

It's alright. You got up the wrong foot by suggesting people would be happy to see Kaladin dying. And I disagree. I do no read Kaladin as passionate, no matter what Shallan may have said. I just do not get how Kaladin is more passionate than Adolin. Adolin is the one having passion: he is described in such terms by many people. He is the one having strong emotions he hardly controls. Now this isn't to say Kaladin doesn't have them too, but they are more guarded, more introspective and I really do not get Kaladin is the kind of guy to go heartbroken over a girl. For the rest, leave it be. I am not a brick wall, disagreeing does not make me a brick wall, but I disagree with the depiction of Kaladin as a passionate love stricken guy who would be devastated over Shallan not wanting to pursue things with him. I just do not see it within the existing narrative. I absolutely do not read Kaladin as a this individual. As I said the only, only person I see getting hurt here is Adolin. My perspective is the story has highlighted well enough Adolin crushes, loves Shallan, probably more than she loves him and shall she prefer Kaladin, this would break his every thought of ever succeeding in a functional relationship. Kaladin, he may be sad, he may be angry, but he will move on. Things not working with Shallan is NOT a show stopped for Kaladin, but it is for Adolin. I do not see Adolin moving one from losing Shallan, just like Dalinar never moved on from losing Navani. Sorry if I you think I am a brick wall, but any argument saying losing Shallan wouldn't have worst consequences on Adolin than on Kaladin, I disagree with. Shall the story ever make it clear I was wrong, then so be it, but so far, it isn't going down this road so far and it's got a great lot of writing to do to convince me Adolin wouldn't be the most severely impacted shall he lose Shallan. We are back at it? Screaming insults at each other? I thought we made that clear last time. I thought we made peace. Look, I have the right to disagree with you. I have the right to think your statements are wrong just as you have the right to think mine are. Accept we disagree and move on. I am NOT being condescending, not this time around, I won't bite to the insult. And stop insulting me each time you disagree with me. Seriously. And I am NOT victimizing myself. Gee. I am the farthest away from victimizing person you are about to meet, but I will call a cat a cat if I see one and I will not sugar coat it just because some people may be offended I dare say things as they were. The fandom HAS been harsh on Adolin and it HAS caused those who like his character to become more reactive. This is a FACT, not an attempt to draw sympathy by making me sound like a victim of the evil Kaladin lovers.

Ah, true. Thanks!

It says click all that apply

For clarification, I'm not saying posters seem to be advocating killing off Kaladin! I'm saying the sense I personally get in reading this forum is that if there was a poll which was based on the assumption that either Kaladin or Adolin HAD to die, Kaladin would be the one chosen to be offed. But this is just my perception! I see those polls linked a few pages back tell a different story. I don't keep track of who posts what (though I do know you are one of the most vocal Adolin-ites), so it's possible it is the same people disliking the idea of Kaladin being with Shallan repeatedly that led to my impression. I didn't quote it, but I found your historical summary of Adolin among the fan base to be really interesting. I very recently read WoK and WoR (finishing the latter in late July), and first came upon this forum trying to see if anyone else sensed the Kaladin-Adolin romantic connection (Now after knowing more of Sanderson's background and having read some of his other books, I realize Kadolin is highly, highly unlikely to become reality ) As I stated in my first post on this thread, I didn't expect to find such antagonism towards the Kaladin-Shallan match, but given the history noted, I can understand why the pro-Adolin posters became so entrenched in their position.

Devastating? Aren't you extrapolating a bit much with this ? Kaladin doesn't have a relationship with Shallan neither is he in love with her. He merely thinks of her and has a mild curiosity towards her. That's it. Shall she not return his affection, he will not be devastated. Devastated is what Adolin will be if Shallan dumps him for Kaladin. Therefore, as long as Shallan and Kaladin do not have a working relationship based on romance, something at least equivalent to what Adolin and Shallan currently have, I will not consider it devastating nor traumatizing to either of them shall it not work. At this point in time within the story, the only individual in danger of getting hurt, like really hurt, by the "love triangle" is Adolin, not Kaladin. To Kaladin, Shallan is A girl. To Adolin, Shallan is THE girl. Big difference. Yes, I agree. Kaladin's character doesn't need to have a romantic relationship, at the moment, and shall he get one it doesn't need to be with Shallan, specifically. Adolin is within a completely different mind frame where he not only wants resolution, but he NEEDS to have it. We can guess, with the Desolation looming, Adolin will not be allowed to remain without a wife for much longer. On the reverse, neither Kaladin nor Shallan actually have to marry to fulfill their obligation to their family. Romance is not something their character needs to be successful in. One of the points I have often made is without Shallan, Adolin has no romance. There is no "other choice". Bringing in "another choice", into the story does not work because his character is unable to have relationship. His issues won't just magically disappear. Shallan is different, the next random girl won't. I do not see Kaladin's character as absolutely needing a relationship with Shallan to progress nor to move forward. I agree it is a "nice to have", but this "nice to have" does not require Shallan. It could be with any character Brandon wants to introduce as Kaladin doesn't have Adolin's crippling issues when it comes to relationships nor dating. He has problems, but they aren't related to intimacy nor the ability to develop relationships with girls. I am surprised, if you read as many threads as you claim you have read, you would still insist on saying the majority of readers prefer Adolin over Kaladin be it for a relationship with Shallan or in general... There hasn't been many conversations, on the matter of shipping, during the last 4 years, into which I have not been personally involved. I don't think there is one discussion thread I have not read even from the time prior to my joining. The first place where the Adolin/Shallan ship got what seemed like the most support was Tor.com, during the WoR re-read, this is true. People even commented on it, on how it was odd people on Tor would favor Adolin whereas people everywhere else favored Kaladin. It as an oddity. People were surprised and theories about the demographic were made. These days, I'd say it is pretty even on Tor.com: those last chapters won a lot of people over for the Adolin/Shallan ship, but many are strongly arguing in favor of Kaladin. On Reddit, prior to OB's pre-release, the most support has always been towards Kaladin. Reddit has one "Adolin will turn evil or becomes Odium's Champion" post launched basically every week! Recently, there was this large impressive post made in favor of Kaladin and Shallan where Adolin's character was reduced to his most simple expression. Up until perhaps a few months ago or maybe a year I can't say for sure, the 17th Shard shipping discussions were filled with pro-Kaladin and myself trying to basically defend the Adolin relationship, often by myself. I did not often get supporters or fellow posters thinking alike: this rarely happened. I have been involved into all of those discussions, every single one: I never got the complete and total support from a majority of the posters whenever I argued about shipping or even just Adolin's character. It is true, right now, Adolin seems to be getting the most support, but over the course of the last four years, it has been the opposite, in a general manner. Thus to me, making the argument Kaladin is the lesser loved character just doesn't hold the road. It is so not true. What is true however is the Adolin fans have been very vocal over the years. It is also true Adolin's character has monopolize A LOT of discussion, but it still does not make him more popular: it makes him more often discussed. As for the scenes people do not want to see, I think many responded a Kaladin/Shallan romance because they don't want a love triangle and it doesn't look like Adolin/Shallan will end soon. I could be wrong though. I answered because I want Adolin to be with Shallan. I can't say about others. The idea Kaladin is an unpopular character baffles me. This is so not true. Has anyone read the negative critics on OB? Has anyone taken the time to browse through every single one of them? What are people actually complaining about? They are complaining there isn't enough Kaladin. He has had 6 viewpoints (I think it was 6) among 15 viewpoints chapters and there are many readers who think this is not enough. This week, so many readers complained the Kaladin chapter was too short. We got two amazing Shallan chapters I loved immensely and yet some readers complained there "was not enough Kaladin". Nobody is complaining about the other characters story arcs, even Shallan's who definitely got the short edge, so far. A tragedy? No it is not really a tragedy, a tragedy is a very strong word, but let's just say it may diminish my personal interest within the series. I am currently losing interest within Lightbringer because I dislike most of the current character arcs and the one character I enjoy the best has been put into a situation where he does nothing, can't do nothing. So while the Kaladin/Shallan romance will not, by itself, be a tragedy, for myself as a reader, it may inadvertently put a too strong focus on these two characters, to the detriment of the Kholin family who I find more interesting to read. I don't mind reading Kaladin, I generally like him (though I find his story arc in OB not to be overly interesting, so far), but I prefer reading about Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Navani and company. Thus, it isn't so much the Kaladin/Shallan potential ship I dislike, but the focus it removes from characters I prefer reading. Now, if it does happen, it does not mean whatever else Brandon will write won't be so amazing I'll forget about my initial reticence and totally embark into the new plot. This however has not happened yet and I can only judge a story based on what I think and where I see it going given the various tangential. I still haven't read page 4... Getting to it. Getting to it: The reason Helaran is shouted so often is because "But Adolin murdered Sadeas" is always shouted more strongly. I agree if Kaladin and Shallan do not work out, it won't be because of Helaran just as I insist if Adolin and Shallan do not work out, it won't be because he murdered their world's greatest villain. Come on... You and I both know Adolin and Shallan will never be friends. She is his Navani: he will always love her. She will always be the one he couldn't get, the only one he wanted to keep. Seeing her with Kaladin, sure Adolin would nice and everything, but he would isolate himself from them, just as Dalinar did with Navani. Adolin and Shallan as friends just honestly isn't a possibility I see within the narrative. Shallan might be friend with Adolin, but not the reverse. You are also ignoring something important, Adolin doesn't need Shallan to be his friend, he needs a romantic relationship to work. Remove this from his character and no, he isn't growing nearly as much. He'll always have this thing which is missing, he'll always have those issues. As for Adolin loving Shallan just as Kaladin could, another come on. Kaladin would never be half as thoughtful nor dedicated to Shallan as Adolin is. It just isn't how he is. What I meant is a man like Adolin, a man who makes you feel special, who loves you so much he gives you everything doesn't come around every street corner. I was thinking Shallan, given her past history, could grow in appreciating what a man like Adolin does for her. And come on, nobody is victimizing Adolin. What you are seeing is people being tired of other people endlessly arguing Adolin is rotten because he killed Sadeas and everyone else will see him as rotten because of it. Like, no one within the entire series will ever understand, not even the one girl who actually killed her parents.

When you look at a coin in sadness, knowing that you're not a Mistborn

Thanks! It would be awesome if they met again, I've been dying to know more about her.

I'm an INFJ. Took the test several times some time ago and always end up INFJ hah ... I loved finding that out because for me it was a relief to know and realize that my thought patterns and ways of taking in information are something that other people experience as well (even if INFJ's are supposed to be "the 1 %" or whatever). I live with an ISTP guy. Conversations get really interesting when we try to understand each other's viewpoints :B

The thing with Kaladin seems to be that he isn't really looking for relationships, friendly or not, in the same way that Adolin does. He doesn't want to go drinking with his men, for example. Adolin on the other hand always looks for social situations, for opportunities to talk to and befriend people. But he has problems succeeding with it on a deeper level. Having Adolin and Shallan get together would be a huge step for Adolins character, and a way for him to deal with his relationship-problems. For Kaladin it would be just another cool thing happening. I honestly think that not getting Shallan would move Kaladin in more interesting directions than getting her would. And for those who say that Kaladin needs Shallan to get over his light-eyes hate, well, we already have Adolin, Dalinar, Elhokar, Amaram and Roshone for that part of his character. He can resolve that with them. There is no need of Shallan there.

I agree that Shallan and Kaladin have an interesting chemistry, that when I first read the book, I didn't give too much in, because I was really sure of the Shallan/Adolin pairing until the chasm scene. When I reread the book I let myself see these things that I ignored and it's clear they could have something going on. The seeds are there and it would be really easy to blossom with more focus from the author. Also, the reason why a lot of people like Shallan and Adolin, myself included, is because 'they fit', as Kaladin said. Yes, there were some red flags to them, but aside the Kaladin element, at this moment in the story their relationship resembles the most a real depiction of one (let's not all go into dishonesty and other stuff like that). I think a lot or readers find themselves in that, probably from their own experiences because it's nice. When you date in real life you eat together, go to the zoo, talk about passions and other stuff like that, you don't go off fighting chasmfiends with an upcoming storm above your head. But also, a lot of people feel , myself included, that it would be more fun to read about that sort of dramatic/passionate relationship because you are reading a fantasy book afterall. Bottom line, right now, I am somewhere in the middle. I actually find things in both relationships that I can relate to from my own experiences, so I think I will wait until I see more drama/action in Adolin/Shallan and more grounded nice moments in Kaladin/Shallan, before I will jump on a ship. Or I will stay on the ground because I get too invested and if my prefered ship drowns I can get really emotional

ETA: I messed up the quotes :/ @eveorjoy I did say 'I'm sure that was not the intention', but this is what you wrote Once again, I do get what you meant. But as you said yourself, the Shalladin relationship gets A LOT of truly unnecessary crap. I don't think I have ever seen a Shallan/Kaladin thread that did not immediately have someone barging in to say 'this is why it's a bad idea', with the people against always outnumbering those in favour. It gets routinely brought up with negative connotations pretty often - the recent 'what you don't want to see in OB' being an example, but there are dozens - by contrast, I've hardly ever seen someone bring up Shalladin in a positive way in a thread that was not specifically about shipping or the OB chaptes threads. Heck, it took until the OB chapters were released for the fandom at large to admit that yes, there might be something there - up to a few months ago the consensus was that shippers were reading too much into it and a love triangle would never happen becausd Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien and whatnot. People who like Shalladin had to fight just to get acknowledgement of the fact that the relationship is a real possibility and not a collective delusion. All those 'Brandon would never do that' feel patronizing after a while. So in light of this, when someone names a thread 'Shalladin isn't that bad an idea' and begins with 'So, Shalladin shippers have it hard', but then goes on to explain that the reason why the dreaded Shalladin isn't really that bad is because it will make Shadolin stronger, there is no harm in a filtration that lasts a few chapter and Shalladin is doomed anyway... You can't fault people for getting a bit piqued and think Shalladin (and Kal especially) are being used as a prop. That's not what you meant, and rereading the post a couple of times there are phrases that make it clear that you're not dismissin Kaladin's progression, but t'she wording (especially the bolded bits) have an implication of 'the reason why this controversial ship is fne it because it can really help this other popular ship'. It's great to know you also want good character development all around and I hope my previous post didn't come across as annoying/ a personal attack, but I hope that now my reasons for writing what I did are clearer. Moving on! About Helaran. Now, I think it's clear that I want Shalladin to happen and that I don't really care which direction is going to go as long as it's satisfying, but I don't think the relationship is dead on arrival because of Helaran. It is a huge blow, more important than a lot of Shalladin shippers acknowledge, but not necessarily The End 1) Shallan has already acknowledged that Helaran's death was on Helaran. She heard the account of what he did in battle. Her first reaction was of hate for Amaram, but she grew to understand that he did die in battle - one where he didn't conduct himself honourably. When she and Kaladin will talk about it, he'll probably give her a more detailed account. As things stand, if Kal and Shallan talked about it she will probably be able to be civil, even friendly after some time, with Kaladin. But I can see why she wouldn't want a relationship with the killer of her beloved brother. But she will realize that 2) Helaran failed Shallan. He failed his family. Balat says it at some point; Helaran left and didn't look back. He was a Shardbearer, he could have put his Blade in the Highprince's service, gained lands of his own in exchange and taken care of his family. He didn't. He left them with their father, a man he believed to be a murderer, because whatever he was doing was more important. Shallan never acknowledged that because she is very attached to her memories/ idealized her brother, but she will at some point. There is also the fact of who exactly Helaran was working for and what he was trying to accomplish. It may have been the Skybreakers, or not. She might meet the Skybreakers and hate them. she might find out her brother's plan and disagree. Either ways, I think she is going to reconsider her opinion to Helaran to some extent - may be a little, may be a lot - and of Helaran's death in light of her killing her mother. I don't necessarily think this will lead to her forgiving Kaladin to the point that she's comfortable being in a relationship with him, and it would be difficult to write were that the case, but I think that Kaladin's actions don't automatically mean that they could never work out.

I found a cool moth today! After taking photos and doing a little research on Google, I figured out that it's a Painted Tiger Moth. (5 photos)

When you spend the majority of your day reading, theorizing, about death-rattles, writing, listening to Writing Excuses, and some college lectures. Well right now I'm listening to music from The Hobbit. My dad asked me the other day, "So, you listen to college lectures for fun?" "Yep!" So, a middle schooler who reads thousand page adult fiction, and listens to college lectures for fun. Summary of my life.

I've been doing a re-listen to WoK and WoR, and today I heard the Lhan interlude. In this chapter, the "Hall of Memory" - what is obviously the Kholinar oathgate is described. The Ardent also observes the same patterned strata layers in the Rock formation around the city, especially the Windblades, and posits that a drunken god had crafted the whole thing.

Honor by itself is definetely far from perfect. You could easily make a case that what happened to the Heralds was Honor's fault. What he did was basically send 10 elite soldiers to eternal war, hell and horror with zero recompense. Thats not only inhumane but impossible to keep up. Then, there are definetely foolish oaths. What if you swear to never let an enemy know peace in a moment of rage? Or to rape and plunder an entire kingdom in a moment of grief? Or without looking too far the Vengeance Pact? That been said, what we have seen from Cultivation by herself also worries me. Its far too deadly, focused and one dimensional. The best KR orders so far I think are those that show signs of both honor and cultivation. Those too much on one side seem dangerously unbalanced. It may be T is an agent of Cultivation as many think, but I do seem him as evil. One does not prevent the other. Some say that evil is not so easy to define. Well. T murders, he lies, he hides, he breaks and destroys, he brings grief and destruction on a scale that makes Gavilar and his conquest seem an icepick next to an iceberg, he takes the easy path, he doesn't look for another better way. Together those are enough for me to mark him one one side of the coin.

All of Sel's magics are form based. The implementation is what varies. So they are similar, but they aren't the same thing. Make sense?

I like the Han Solo type of character (who doesn't?) but I can see why Adolin wouldn't fit (fingers crossed for Mraize to be the dark Han Solo). I'd still like it if Adolin became the Stormlight Han though. Otherwise, becoming a Radiant via Blade therapy is cool, and very likely to happen in OB (I think there is a WoB about Adolins arc in OB being awesome). I also want Adolins murder of Sadeas to be revealed.

I sure hope not, Roshar has enough problems already!

OK... I normally stay out of these threads... But I think the claim that more people would be happy with Kaladin dying than Adolin is pushing it a bit. Ship who you want. Whatever. Start saying that people would be okay with killing a character who has been one of the main protagonists in the book, over a character that has played a mainly supporting role, and you're pushing it. I like Adolin. He's a good character. If he were to die that would suck. But for a good chunk of the more casual readers, killing Kaladin would be a betrayal of the unspoken contract between the author and reader. It could be done, but it would have to be handled amazingly well.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the strata served some type of purpose in Urithuru. I like @Varion's possibility, but I propose a little more looney of a theory. What if they help channel/carry Stormlight all through the structure? Like thin lines of gem chips or ground crystals that hold stormlight? Dalinar already noticed that there are baskets/cages that can be dropped into a Highstorm to collect Stormlight. What if there is some type of link or connection from those cages to the strata, that then channel/conduct the Stormlight throughout the Tower via the strata patterns? Thus, providing substantial power to the Tower and its inhabitants.

Or, you know, all these could happen: kaladin and adolin discover themselves bisexual and form a stable triangle with shallan and each other. No, I don't think it's ever going to happen, but it certainly would solve every problem

You wouldn't know that from the discussions here ^^.

What a terrible shame this isn't that kind of novel

That's actually a really good way to put it. We hold up the ideal but acknowledge that - while we aspire to the ideals represented - we sometimes fail to realize / act on them. Like I said, I was trying to avoid discussion of whether refusing to stand for the anthem is right or wrong. I understand both sides, and I hate that the political arena is so dysfunctional & adversarial that our leaders can't / won't acknowledge the other side has a point. I just thought it was interesting how various moral philosophies and understandings of honor play out in the real world. I also think it's great that literature inspires us to have these kinds of discussions.

I usually don't comment on this debate because I’m not much of a “shipper.” I like reading romantic sub-plots in fantasy, but I usually go along with whatever the author chooses to write. The same goes with this case, I have confidence that BS will write something interesting with good conflicts and character building. I like all three characters involved, and am excited to watch it develop. However, one thing that makes me a little sad to read in the endless shipping debate is that somehow Kaladin’s thoughts and feeling usually get pushed to the side. Much of the debate is what is best for Shallan and/or Adolin, and Kaladin is something of an afterthought at best, or at worst it is seen as gross or horrific for Shallan to end up with him. Perhaps this is because, as @Dreamstorm points out, people seem to like Adolin better, and want to look out for his best interest. They want him to be happy. I totally get that, because as a Kaladin fan-girl myself (there I admit it), my hope is that he gets what he wants and needs. He's had a rough life and he needs a little love and support too. It could be close friendships, romantic relationships, or bromances, but whatever it is, I’d like to see him get some happiness thrown his way. To point out one example of Kaladin as an afterthought, note this from @eveorjoy post (which I enjoyed, by the way!): This looks like Kaladin is being used to resolve Shallan’s mental issues, only to be pushed aside when she’s healed and can go back to Adolin. If Kaladin truly likes Shallan, this could really hurt him. It would also serve to increase his distrust of lighteyes. I’d rather skip the whole Shalladin thing if it is only going to end with him hurt and sinking into another bout of dark despair. Several times I have seen people mention “Kaladin just needs to find a nice dark-eyed girl.” This sounds very racist/classist to me. This is saying Kaladin has dark eyes, and therefore he should try to stay in his own class and date girls with dark eyes. Personally, I think it would be very interesting for Kaladin to have a loving and trusting relationship with a light-eyed woman. It would go a long way to help diffuse his distrust of lighteyes, and it would serve as an example to others that the classism of separating people people by eye color is kind of random and ridiculous. This being said, I’m not fully convinced that Shallan is the light-eyed woman for this role. I love Shallan, but she has her own deep-seated issues with darkeyes passed down from her father, who wouldn't let her draw them. She automatically thinks of them as peasants, as noted in the recent chapter, and Kaladin would work best with a woman who is more open minded about these things and isn't put off by his eye color. I’m not sure we’ve met a woman like that in the story yet, so I’m not holding my breath on this to happen any time soon. To sum up, I don’t quite understand why the idea of Kaladin and Shallan is so offensive to people. Perhaps it’s just because he’s not Adolin, and that makes him the wrong choice for her. But it hurts to see so much negativity towards him when he’s really a decent guy who deserves to be happy too.

@maxal I really hope you won't get this wrong way and the fact that I am choosing to respond to you doesn't look like an attack or something like that. I hate how one can come across slontzey or mean on the internet so I hope I don't. In regards to saying "the dark and broody"/"love-hate" tropes have been used more than "rich boy falls for one of a kind girl"/"arranged wedding", and you called the Kaladin/Shallan relationship from the beginning, I think it's your personal experience when it comes to the form of entertainment you were exposed to. For someone who has read a lot of garbage chick-lit books, between Chronicles of Narnia and high fantasy, I can say my favourite trope was the "rich boy that can't commit who is super nice&thoughtful and falls for the nerdy/quirky girl" ( i just want to throw up when I read that sentence out loud and remember those times). Why I am admitting this, embarrassing myself ? Because I don't think one can quantify the usage of one trope over the other. Everyone will have biases & preferences and it's ok as long they don't try to push those as facts. I never read forums or opinions online before reading WoR, so until the infamous chasm scene I was sure Adolin and Shallan were set in stone (maybe because I was a bit bias over my favourite trope from my teen years), so I could argue that trope is overused and so on. We would never get anywhere. Both relationships have started with equal cliches as a base and now we see layers upon layers on that base. So you, me ore anyone else saying, yes both can be reduced to tropes, but one is more overused than the other is subjective because everyone talks from their own perception as to X is more cliche than Y. Likewise for the ones who don't want to see or accept that Adolin/Shallan had some really genuine and nice moments in these last two chapters. As much as I want, I can't skip all these discussions that come up and I feel like some of them are putting me off when it comes to characters, possible plot development etc This is why I am trying so much to be Sweden and arguing so that everyone can see how nice and carefree it can be. Sorry if I don't make much sense, my eyes are closing.

I don't think so. I think that an oath is only as good as it is wise. So, honoring a foolish oath will lead to foolishness, folly, and ultimately evil. Let's go to our real-life religions for an example: Jephthah is a character from the Bible; his account is recorded in Judges 11:1—12:7. He's a pretty interesting character who is best known for slaying his daughter in order to honor a foolish oath he made to God. Jephthah was asked by the elders of Israel to lead the defense of the country against the invading Ammonites. When he agreed, he made a vow to God, saying, “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” Jephthah then defeated the Ammonites and returned home. When Jephthah arrived at home, his daughter, an only child, was the first to come out of his house. Jephthah evidently expected an animal to exit, but... The moral of the story is that people are not to make rash commitments or promises (e.g. foolish oaths) to God. Also interesting is what Jesus had to say about oaths in his Sermon on the Mount: So, the Judeo-Christian god certainly expects people to honor their oaths. Jesus more or less says that it is better not to swear any oaths at all because God takes them so seriously. In light of that, I wouldn't say that honor unchecked leads to evil so much as the content of one's oath can bind someone to a course of action that is obviously wrong and against the intent of the person making the oath. Simply put, most oaths are foolish because we don't know what the future holds. As a result, oaths bind the future conduct of honorable people to a restrictive code of conduct that may result in acts that are obviously wrong (or prohibit them from doing what is right). TL;DR → A foolish oath can lead an honorable person to commit acts of evil, not the person's sense of honor. Dishonorable people might be willing to forsake a poorly thought-out oath in service to what is right, but a they will also ignore their own convictions about what is right when it's convenient for them.

I recall hearing (because Audiobooks) Lift mentioning "The Nine" in a semi-religious context. What all (other than 9 abandoned Honorblades) do we have reference to 9 of? Also, you forgot to mention the fact that the man ate crab curry, for BREAKFAST! A bit suspicious, don't you think? No mention of lunch, either... plainly a champion of hatred. Case closed.

Magic-form

I cannot tell if all of the grammatical mistakes in these headlines are ironic or accidental... On topic: A darkeyes took down a full Shardbearer and then did this! 10 topics for your first date with a prince! Hint: it includes self-defecation! A young girl robs the Bronze Palace in Azir but what she does next is AWESOME!

The weapon could be classified as the group of sixteen that killed him. Since that group broke apart after gaining their Shards, the 'weapon' no longer exists in it's original form.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... That's one helluva discovery. So, we know that the original Vessels killed Adonalsium (or at least Khriss believes this to be the case, and she is our best resource right now). With something that no longer exists in its original form. My headcanon? Whatever the weapon was, a material, a power, a being, its death transformed it into aluminum.

You know you're really a Sanderfan when, at last, you understand references like "type IV biochromatic entity"

Better than concussionball, I'm sure. Bowling and tennis should never have been crossed.

When you begin to wonder if someone on the Shard is Brandon Sanderson, who created a dummy account, and is giggling at all of our amazingly wrong theories. Edit: Sorry for the double post...