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I’d also like to say thanks to Rubix, Meta, Wil’son, Gamma, and all the GM’s for providing us with a great way to interact with each other on the forum. Every GM so far has done an amazing job with what I would imagine is a very hectic responsibility. There were some details that came up in Game 5 though that I thought I should bring up to see if they could be improved on in future games. It’s likely the nobles would still have been able to rally and defeat us in the end but I feel two things significantly affected the GB’s ability to win the game and were not spelled-out from the start. 1.) Outlining what scenarios reveal information in the write ups. On Night 4 the GB knew I was likely to be attacked by the nobles so we came up with a plan to have the nobles waste two kill attempts. I was given shardplate and protection with a painrial. Since we knew from the order of actions that the painrial would protect first, we had thought that it would deflect the bow attack and the nobles would not know I had plate. They would then waste the vote trying to eliminate me the next day only to end up cracking my plate instead. That would have bought us another full day. As it turned out, just being targeted by an attack revealed that you had plate so the nobles discovered the next day in the write up that I had plate and ultimately voted to lynch one of the other GB (by mostly luck). There was nothing in the rules that stated that it would be announced in the writeups that someone had plate if they were simply targeted at night, not actually struck. I can see that if they had hit me with an attack the plate would have been revealed as a result but that wasn’t the case. The painrial prevented the hit. I don’t blame Maili for our loss by any means. We should have thought to get confirmation that the plate would not be revealed in that situation but it might be a good thing for GM’s to keep in mind since the writeups can have a huge impact on the rest of the game if they reveal certain information. In the future, GM’s should take special care to try and outline all scenarios that will result in critical information being revealed in the write ups. 2.) The Hidden Message Games. I understand there are a lot of people on this forum that like solving secret codes and I’m fine with having that kind of element in the games but I think we should have some kind of stipulations around them. I’ll be the first to admit I’m not great with codes and don’t particularly enjoy trying to solve them. Game 4, I largely ignored that aspect Fnord had added since it didn’t interest me and ultimately it didn’t make much difference in the game, just added an extra element of challenge for the people that wanted to try at it. In game 5 I felt like I HAD to try and solve the code or we had no hope of pulling off a win. Trying to solve it at that point didn’t improve my experience in the game (since as I said I don’t enjoy codes) but instead added an extra bit of frustration. When it was revealed what the prizes were, I felt they were way too powerful and way too game changing to be given out right at the most critical junction of the game, especially for something that was supposed to be just a fun little easter egg. We had spent the entire game meticulously mapping out who had what items and working out strategies around that. Suddenly having three shields thrown into the game and a KILL ITEM?!? completely busted any strategies we had at that point and made anything we did a complete shot in the dark. In future games I feel like there should be stipulations on how secret games like this are handled. The game needs to actually be optional if it is completely hidden. As I said, I don’t particularly enjoy that type of game and it’s not what I sign up for when I play elimination. If I don’t want to participate in the hidden message game I shouldn’t feel like I have to in order to survive. The prizes should be non game changing. Solving the riddle should be reward enough for those people who notice the hidden messages and want to make the attempt. If the prizes are going to be game altering additions, it needs to be announced during the signup phase that there might be hidden messages and codes that can potentially effect the outcome of the game. That way, people who don’t want to worry about that sort of thing can skip that round of elimination.

Well I tried to take a picture of all my stormlight merch in one photo altogether. It's the best i could do. Blue coat jacket with Bridge 4 glyph patch. Blue shirt with bridge 4 glyph. Oathbringer necklace pendant Feel free to try and beat me!

Night 6: A Duel Night 6: Khas summoned his Shardblade and challenged the thief to a duel. A regular sword would be no chance for a Shardblade so Jim Bob loaned one from Highprince Gavilar Kholin. He went into the duel, scared out of his mind to be facing an assassin. This soldier had killed King Naladar, Fnorf, and some of the other nobles. This man was a trained killer. Jim was just a dirt salesman. He didn't know how he could win this duel. They began the fight and the nobility rooted for Jim and cheered him on. They all knew that Khas was a traitor and a murderer. Khas' partners, Awes and Alv, were the only ones who even gave any support at all to the soldier. Khas was angry, but he was also remorseful. He felt bad for the death of the King. He wasn't that bad of a man, he had just needed to be removed. But one had to pick their death. Jim got a lucky swing in after Khas had been distracted by Wurum's proclamations. He cut through Khas' neck and Khas fell to the ground. It didn't look like he was dead and so Jim, Inexperienced with Shardblades, began to swing over and over at Khas' body. Now that Khas was dead. The body began to be cut. Wurum yelled at Jim, "Jim! He's dead. It's over." Khas was a Ghostblood with a Shardblade, Reverser, Emotion Bracelet, and half-shard. Votes: Khas (6): Ace, Tion, Cara, Wurum, Lucal, Khas Jim Bob Dirt (3): Awes, Alv, Jim Bob Dirt The night begins now and will end at 11:00 amMDT/18:00 GMT on Monday.

I thought that I heard Jasnah calling my name, but it must have been somebody Elsecalling.

the characters I'm reading about have at least one arm, and the one that they don't have is currently making a rude gesture towards you.

Methinks that people are underestimating the power of the system. Swimmingly's specialization/limitation idea might just be strictly necessary if you don't want these guys to be seriously OP. One key component to recognizing this OP-ness is not thinking of these mages as "squishy wizards" but as warriors who happen to have some magical powers. Let's take a few minutes to think and come up with some HPMOR-style over analysis that will make these powers a bit more clear. I'm sure that a few hours or days of thought could do far better: Note: I'm sticking to the few-meter radius throughout here, and it's still pretty impressive what the elements can do. Water: Hello blood. Goodbye enemies within an X foot radius. Or, better yet, bloodbend them and you'll be outdoing those puny metal/earth mages with their hard-made statues. Other applications: Control you're own body/blood. Heal/staunch wounds, move your body incredibly fast/powerfully at the speed of thought rather than the speed of nerve transmission (stole this idea unashamedly from "Godspeed" in Hunter x Hunter), fly through the air. Water shield: Have a shell of water around your body attacking enemies and blocking attacks. Wield water weapons: Water held under appropriate pressure can cut steel. Easily. Either you could swing about water jets as weapons or you could enhance more mundane weapons by essentially making them into chainsaws. And of course water is in basically everything, so you'll not be too likely to run out of it completely at any point. Earth: Holy hell what can't they do. EVERYTHING in Generic Medieval Fantasy Society B is made of earth or stone. Tear down buildings. Tear out the ground beneath your enemies' feet. Make the ground shoot up and perforate said enemies. Surround yourself with a buzzsaw of flying rocks/sand. Defend yourself. Encase yourself in sand or rocks as continually replenishing armor and go like a green golem on everyone. This last is potentially even the better version of self-bloodbending from the water side, as you're protected in addition to being able to move your body about crazy-fast in response to your thoughts or the like. Also flying, once again. Presumably this includes control over stones of even the precious or semi-precious variety, so also hello magebreaker. You could easily steal/destroy the power storages of enemy mages. Ever seen Gaara in Naruto? He's the guy who controls sand. Albeit he can do it from greater range than you have, but he's scary-awesome. Crushing enemies, protecting himself, traversing terrain, the works. Air: Air also, can cut things at high enough pressure. Actually, take it as a rule that everything can cut things if you increase the pressure enough. MINDBLADES AIRBLADES! Also just about everything Aang does in Avatar. That holds for all the elements here that have correspondents in that show, obviously, (for instance, Earth can probably manipulate Metal a bit), but airbending in particular was always a fairly close-range skill. So, to summarize: flying, cutting stuff, tripping up enemies, deflecting attacks, empowering projectile attacks, etc. Also getting back into creepy land, people kind of need air to live. They carry it around in their lungs. Anyone gets in range and you can either suffocate them if you're feeling nice or you can blow up their lungs. Can kind of maybe get power armor if they compress air around them or the like. Metal: Remember how terrible it was to be wearing metal around a mistborn? Remember that time Magneto used a pair of ball bearings to massacre an entire prison designed to keep him in? METAL. We get the same-old "wreath yourself in your element and have a power-suited field day", we get the vast majority of enemy weapons being either useless or deadly to those wielding them, we get Magneto-style flight, we get whirling blades of death... It's a slightly more limited Earth, essentially, except that it has that nice "kill your enemies with their own weapons" effect. EDIT: Also perfectly "forged" metal armor for you and all your pals, at the very least. Wood: Now you said this was constructive, so we can't have too much fun with wooden floors or door or hilts or ornaments or... As I said, we can't have too much fun with them. I'm going to assume that "wood" is all plants and not just wood-producing ones, though. What we do have, though, is a world where everyone is wearing plant-fiber clothing and wielding weapons likely incorporating at least some wood into their design. If worst comes to worst, you can just have all the enemies around you grow trees out of their clothes. In a projectile-launching sense, depending on how much you hate physics today, you could launch wooden arrow shafts and grow them into logs on the way out. Or drop them and violate the nature of inertia a little less by instead just ignoring the nature of potential energy. And of course hard-wood armor that's perfectly grown around your body,. Too bad we can't actively control the wood, or everyone but Fire (and maybe Air) would be getting power armor. EDIT: This might be the most passively ally-helping, though, as all your friends could also have such armor. Fire: Ironically enough, you might have overdone it by seeking to limit fire here. The few-arms-length limit is... limiting. Throwing fireballs from within your radius at people outside of it (as well as blocking enemy attacks of that kind) seems the only thing to do without killing yourself. Now if by "fire" you actually mean heat... now we're cooking with gas! (pun entirely intended and yes I cackled evilly as I wrote it ) What can't you do with heat? Redirect the heat of a torch into the middle of someone's brain, redirect the heat from their heart into basically anywhere else, freeze blood, freeze the ground, freeze water and metal and stone... If you have to redirect it rather than just sucking it out, it could be a useful limitation on fire mages that they can't just walk around freezing everything because the heat all has to go somewhere within a few arm's lengths of them. On that note, fire mages being able to redirect heat would allow some more fun "human torch" situations where they wreath themselves (or allies, but that would require quite a bit of trust and a lot of care not to get out of range) in fire and redirect the heat from their bodies outward. ----- So, looking at them, my intuition is to rank Water first, closely followed by Earth and Metal, with Air not far behind. Fire loses out big time if it's still just Fire, but probably sneaks ahead of at least Air otherwise. Problem with air is a lot of it's utility lies on the fringes of what's plausible for it (like compressing it down to 1000 psi or something), while the more solid elements always have "just bash someone with it" potential inherent to them. Wood gets dead last if it's not able to manipulate. Possibly takes it's place in the Water/Earth/Metal trifecta of scary-awesome if it can manipulate (think "clothing tearing its wearer apart"), but still probably as the fourth member of the group even then. EDIT: Oops, I forgot that you said Earth and Metal were also constructive... I may have gotten carried away. Eh, still, at least even in the worst case Metal mages can essentially disarm their opposition and wield highly modular weapons themselves. ----- Now the moonlight/crystal cost obviously puts some limit on these things, especially the more large-scale or long-scale things. But still. A single water mage could wipe out a thousand men in a dozen seconds by yanking their blood out. I'm actually not sure about your side-effect. Why must we have a side effect? I know it's a tried-and-true method of "saving" magic for important uses, but what this tells us is that you want this magic to be rare/used sparingly. If you do that, though, you'll have less time to showcase something that you're likely going to be proud of and want to show off and you'll also be heavily constrained in how "hard" your magic can be, as you'll have less opportunity for applications to emerge organically from the plot. Also, to counter my "no one would ever use their magic with this side-effect" complaint, nothing is new under the sun, and Brent Week's Black Prism books do a fair job of building a society that revolves to some extent around a magic where every mage has a strict upper limit on how much magic they can use in their life, and then goes insane after breaking it. On the atronachs: Is their control strictly limited to the "few arms length" limit? Thoughts on aether mages: Why? Is it a worldbuilding thing? Do they get some special limitation? Is an aether mage the main villain? Author's note: I am not a psychopath, I'm just very a little creative. --- Of course, I may simply have grossly misunderstood the nature of your magic system and assumed less/more control than you want to give in any of the sub-categories. Your comment on manipulating creations suggested a general ability to manipulate the elements though.

The fact that both Khas and Jim were reversed to vote for themselves is a nice touch to end the last day cycle on seeing as that was how the first person in the game was lynched.

Based on this, I decided to do a photo manipulation of the available versions of the symbols rather than remake them from scratch. I just blew them up and applied a few filters to refine the edges. It resulted in a sharper, jagged version but I think it still approximates the symbols pretty well. If any of the Wiki Admins think these are good enough, let me know and I'll upload the svg's. The symbols are listed below in the same order they appear on the allomantic chart. Clicking on the image will download higher resolution png's.

It was not mentioned in any book that I remember, but Brandon offered it up freely when asked:

When you consider naming a mosquito Kelsier because it keeps surviving your attempts to kill it.

When you walk around in public with a thousand-page book, much to your family's embarrassment.

...But I'm enjoying your company so much that I figured I'd give a shout out to all of the cool people here! This place is very different from the world of YouTube comment debates. I haven't had any problems jumping in and everyone is very helpful and (in my opinion) rather scholarly, even if we stray from the original intent of threads a lot. Looking forward to more craziness, etc.

Oh no, my identity has been revealed!

When you have an entire conversation with someone about book size, and conclude that you could never have an SA omnibus because you could neither print it nor carry it around. I worry about box sets too.

I'm perfectly fine turning this into UFC Roshar and going up against him weaponless and Plateless. Besides, y'know, if I had a Shardblade, I'd just throw it at them and yell, "Are you not entertained?! Is that not why you came?"

When I stubbed my toe last week and yelled, "By the Lord ruler!"

D&D was so difficult to sit through, with me wanting to figure out what happened here. We got lucky with Humperdink yesterday, but today's actions were all calculated with no guesses involved, I'm pleased to say. What's best about this is that everyone, and I mean everyone played their parts, even if it wasn't a wholly necessary one in the end. Sprenil Painrialed me in case you decided to attack and if Meta did turn out to be traitor. I'm not in a PM with him though, so I'm afraid I don't know the full extent of his help. Ace ShardMAced Awes, and was working very hard behind the scenes to make up for my blindness at times. I attempted to kill Alv, and Spied on Khas' Shardblade (since he gave away all his items to avoid being Soulcast, I suspected I'd see and confirm it even if the Soulcast failed). Tion set up so many Spanreed conversations last night for us. We took a risk on relying on him, and we knew that if he was evil, then he could see all our actions and plan accordingly. But he didn't, and its thanks to him that we could co-ordinate so many actions last night. He also sent a Shardplate to me, just in case. Jim stole a Reverser, which helps to cement our victory, and he Pain Knifed Awes. More importantly, it was his theft of the Painrial which allowed us to confirm both Alv's guilt, and Tion's innocence (since Tion suggested it). Saritu seconded my vote for Humperdink yesterday, allowing us to lynch a Ghostblood and proving his innocence at the same time. I posthumously honour him. Cara Soulcast Khas and provided new items. Not much else has to be said about her contribution, since that speaks for itself. Lucal Pain Knifed Alv for us, preventing the Ghostbloods getting their normal kill for definite. Like Sprenil, I unfortunately don't know how else to thank him, since I wasn't directly in a conversation with him over the game. The only way this night's course of actions could have been better is that I would've liked to changed my action to me killing Khas and Soulcasting Alv. I think we could've surprise-killed Awes with that. But alas, I was in bed at the time and couldn't explain. Ah well. So what's nice about this ending is that the victory doesn't belong to a few people scheming in the shadows. It belongs to all the innocents, working together to achieve this ending. In a game in which lies are a matter of course, I think that this is rather special. I'd like to thank you all for being so willing to work together, and I hope that I didn't keep you in the dark too much. I tried not to wherever possible, and I think I did a decent job of it even if it was a bit risky. I would especially like to thank my partner-in-justice at the end there, Ace. We discussed so much at the end, guessing and second-guessing Meta and everyone else, and the sudden guess at the secret hidden within the write-ups that got him that ShardMAce was well timed - I am afraid I am the one who suggested that pun. We actually guessed 'The Lopen' from the first three letters of the white text - we didn't notice the rest. Regardless, Ace, we couldn't have done it without you. You made good choices with who to trust this game, and it paid off immensely near the end. Of course, there is another group that this couldn't have been possible without: The Ghostbloods. People often forget that the purpose of the antagonists is to weave a fun game to play, with all the successes, frustrations and failures that implies. This may only be my second game, but I am extremely impressed with your playing throughout this. You kept us guessing for so long with your actions, particularly since we never even considered that you had a Spy. Your protection of Awes really threw me and Ace for a loop, and we almost immediately lynched Tion. I am, of course, now extremely glad that we didn't. We managed to hit Awes because I was actually the Noble Spy as well as the Grandbow holder, and I saw Awes' Emotion Bracelet. I originally trusted Tion because he threw you up for discussion on our new PM group, and I immediately leapt on that information as proof that Tion was innocent, since I knew Awes to be evil. I didn't think he would even let us consider a Ghostblood that easily, and I was vindicated in the end, even if we suspected him for a long time afterwards. Also, Awes, I enjoyed our debate as well. We thought we had Jim backing us up through the PMs, and I am obviously glad that he did in the end, but I couldn't just let that challenge you made go unanswered. I'm glad I didn't, because it was so storming fun bantering with someone I knew was evil! Something I must ask though - Why did you go after Fnorf? Random chance? I'm still surprised that we managed to get Humperdink yesterday though, especially since I had no proof at all. I like to think people trusted my judgement on that matter, but that's hard to believe since I didn't know my own judgement myself.. Indeed, I expected the vote to be turned back onto Tion easily, since at that time I only knew of Awes' evilness. If Sprenil had gone for Tion as he had two nights previous, and Awes' had changed his vote to Tion too, it would have at least been a dead even lynch between the two, if not a victory depending on your actions. Alv and Khas were somewhat harder though. Ace and I spent a long time thinking about it, with Ace tossing Saritu's name out, and me thinking about Alv, since he voted for Tion consistantly over three nights, trying to force a lynch. I disagreed with Ace on the matter of Saritu, and eventually I managed to convince him for the better. Eventually, it was Jim who gave us the vital clue, that he had stolen a Painrial from Sprenil the day before. That led us to both trust Meta and to pin down Alv as evil. At that point, it was just a matter of seeing who had voted alongside Alv the previous night to save Humperdink, and it was a choice between Jim and Khas. We knew it couldn't be our friendly neighbourhood thief, Jim, since he had been helping us with enquiries. Thus, we went for Khas. We weren't sure about him though, which is why we Soulcast him instead at first. Again, would have liked to change that, but I am a slave to the rotation of the sun in the sky, sadly. So well played, gentlemen. You gave us a very good run for our money. I had as good as written the game off when you got the Shardblade, never expecting us to get it back. I admit that we haven't won yet, but we are in the final processes of doing so. I am very pleased that it ended this close, as all the best games end like this. Thank you for an enjoyable game. And finally, and most importantly, thank you to Mailliw for putting up with me changing my mind for so long. The rules have been extremely different to what I was used to after the Nalthis game, and I'm glad to say that the only complaint I really have about the game is that you don't run on GMT. Thank you for running the game. It was an enjoyable experience, and I've had a lot of fun, despite the frustrations and failures. It has made me think and reassess a lot over the last days, and often I had to stop myself from thinking more about it than I did on my exams these last two weeks - It was certainly more fun that blasted nuclear physics, I can tell you. So, once again, thank you Mailliw for setting this up and running it. I can only imagine how hard it is to remain impartial and to avoid casting judgement while not playing and seeing all our mistakes and the consequences they have. Let this be a message to all of you - Don't leave new people out of PM groups! The thing about Wurum's Grandbow that no-one really seemed to notice was how different it was to normal Grandbows, if one could call the weapons more appropriate for siege than a battle 'normal'. It was a mess of convoluted levers and gears, devised by his father's best engineering Ardents before the fall of the House. The 'compound' bow, they had named it, for the compounding effect the gears had on the draw and the force the arrow was launched at. The bow itself was technically a family heirloom - The last one belonging to the House of Heron. It was designed such that even a man outside of Shardplate could use it, something he had thankfully not had to test, with the help of his newfound allies and their gifts. He'd never let anyone know, but this was the true cause of his house's downfall - Research into a weapon on par with a true Grandbow that any soldier could use. This was the last prototype they had left, and he was pleased to be able to report that it worked. Now he just had to convince people to invest in the idea. Shouldn't be too hard, after these events. The Shardplate itself, though... It still made him feel awkward, particularly since he had worn two different sets of it these last two days, and neither really fitted. He suspected Awes' Plate would fit him better, but that was another matter entirely.. Regardless, it made him feel different when he wore it. It made him feel more powerful, more alive. He felt like a very different man to the one he was not even two weeks ago. He crunched up the path in the encampent to where the three of them were sitting, waiting. Awes, Alv, and Khas. They knew there was no running - How could there be, when their plans had almost all been countered last night? It was a shame that they hadn't managed to save Saritu as well, but it was too late now. He felt as though Humperdink's body should have been there, just to make the complete set. But that would have been disrespectful. "We will kill you today, Khas, and your friends won't be far behind you." Wurum turned back to the rest of the nobles still left here. They were tough and strong people, and despite the gruesome happenings of the last few weeks, they were cheerful. They were certainly more cohesive and friendly than before. In that, at least, the Ghostbloods had utterly failed. "Jim, it sounds as though Khas is trying to kill you. But I feel that the Almighty would want us to be fair. Awes, lend your friend your Shardplate for the duel. Don't worry, you'll get it back no matter the outcome. Jim, you may borrow my Shardplate. I'm sure Ace will let you use his Shardhammer for the fight. Show him that we are not afraid. Show him what we think of their attempts to divide us. Show him that they have lost." He then turned to the other two sitting there. "But I am Alethi, and I respect my enemies in defeat, even ones that hide in the shadows like you. We will not kill you immediately after killing your compatriot. It wouldn't be... Honourable. You will have that last chance tonight, Awes, Alv. We will fight you tonight, Ace and I, and we will kill you. Do either of you have any preferences as to which of us is the one to kill you?"

When you realize that you need a bigger basement for all of the dead bodies and spikes that you've collected. ...Wait, did I just say that?

This is my first post on the 17th Shard forums. I am currently working on worldbuilding for my first attempt at writing a novel. I am hoping that my fellow Sanderson fans will be able to help me out in my endeavor. I welcome all opinions and ideas that can help me to write a better novel in the long run. Basically, I wanted to attempt to bring some new life to the elemental magic system. First off, my system has 7 elements: fire, water, earth, air, metal, wood, and aether. Every mage is limited to just one element, except in the case of aether where that mage would have access to the other six elements. Not everyone is capable of using magic, only those that descend from the elemental gods. To clarify the god of aether is the true god, and all the other gods are only aspects of the one god. This is why aether mages can use all of the elements. My cost for the magic system is moonlight. On my planet (which I still have to name) there are 6 moons of different colors (which correspond to the six colors I have assigned to the elements). For this reason magic either be used when the correct moon is in the sky, or by capturing the moonlight within the proper crystal. For example, emeralds would store the light of the green moon and all a wood mage to case magic. The limitations for my system are that the element must be present in order to manipulate it (no fireballs without fire). The amount of an element that a mage can manipulate varies, however, as a guideline you cannot manipulate more than your own body mass. Range also varies, but no more than a few arm lengths. A side effect of the magic is that the more a mage is exposed to their element, the more they become like it. The ultimate fate of any mage who uses their magic too much is to literally become their element (wood mages turn in to trees, earth mages become statues, etc.). I am toying with the idea of having there be elemental faeries in my world, and the reason that mages can manipulate the elements is because they manipulate the faeries who in turn control the elements. The only thing I am worried about is the similarities to the Sanderson's spren. I kind of want there to be uses for the magic other than Avatar-like bending abilities, but I am at a loss to relate the elements to other things. I was hoping I could get some suggestions. Also, as a point of clarification: wood, earth, and metal are constructive elements meaning they can build things and are primarily defensive, while water, wind, and fire are destructive (typical caster-type attacks) and they are primarily offensive. Please let me know what you all think!

I just received my signed copy of Emperor's Soul! I asked for the names of the minor shardworld planets. Well I know we know the planet for Shadows for Silence now which is awesomely named Threnody, but I also asked Brandon what the planet of Sixth of the Dusk is called which is First of the Sun. So yeah probably not a very good discussion starter but we have a name for the wiki now =)

Introduction In a previous thread, I noted several strange things about how the Surges are currently connected to the Orders/Essences. Most of them just didn't seem to fit, in my view. How does blood relate to illumination? What has tallow got to do with transformation? Anyway, since I promised not to formulate a theory in that thread, I'll just post the theoretical solution I came up with here. But first, let me describe two other issues that, in addition to the Surge issues I've already mentioned, eventually led me to this theory (spoilered for length). The Problem of Elemental Arrangement The Problem of Edgedancers Due to these problems, I'm going to theorize that, for some reason, Tanavast "did a Leras" and fiddled with Rosharian Investiture at some point in the past. Let me detail this theory into four parts (plus a few appendices): Part I: What Was Part II: What Could Have Been Part III: What Came to Be Part IV: What Might Be Appendix A: Order-specific Powers and the Limitation of Lightborn Appendix B: Cultivation, the Listeners, and Odium Appendix C: Circumstantial Evidence from the Books Part I: What Was I believe that what we now see in the Knights Radiant chart does not reflect the natural order of the Surges on Roshar. This natural order involves eight "basic" Essences (Lucentia, Spark, Vapor, Zephyr, Blood, Tallow, Foil, and Talus) that normally interact with Roshar, and the two "Aether" Essences (Sinew and Pulp) that deal with Shardic Investiture and transcend the other eight. The interaction of the eight Essences manifest as the eight "basic" Surges: Illumination, Transformation, Gravitation, Transportation, Tension, Friction, Cohesion, and Division. Each Surge reflected the qualities of two Essences, as I shall detail below (spoilered for length): Here's a diagram: And here's another diagram with the exact same Essence connections, but twisted vertically at the center, and with Sinew and Pulp added but disconnected from the others: Notice how it's almost the Double Eye of the Almighty, only minus the connections to Sinew and Pulp. Also, notice how it looks like two diamonds merged at the tip. In fact, even the first diagram sort of looks like a gemstone, and can probably be stylized into looking like the crown view of an "old eight cut" diamond. Edit: Re-worded Part I due to theory developments in Part III. I sometimes change my mind about details in my theory halfway through writing it. Sorry if this confused anyone. Also, fixed some weird formatting errors that appeared in my last edit.

Right, what Kogi said. The overall arc of this storyline would take Renarin into conflict with the "heroic" side of things. In this case, he would be at opposition with Dalinar, Adolin, and Shallan, which is why I had Adolin see him and the lines about needing to run. I see Renarin as going on the run from them and probably all the members of Bridge 4 too. If we want to go truly tragic, I can take it further: Let's say that the visions are being hijacked and Odium is manipulating him. Kaladin didn't have to die at all. In fact, by killing Kaladin, Renarin has furthered Odium's goals. I've said before that the involuntary nature of Renarin's visions gives me pause. It seems so much more unwilling than all the other kinds of surgebinding that we've seen. So, I'll use that to say that these visions have been twisted by Odium, who is using Renarin as a pawn and turning his allies against Renarin as he does so. We've seen shards twist good intentions into furthering their plots before. If you all want a real antagonist out of Renarin, let's go all the way. Renarin continues seeing visions of the end of the world and the steps that he must take to stop them. He doesn't realize that everything he does is bringing about the end of the world instead. He cannot stop the images from coming, he doesn't know if what he's doing is right anymore, but he's in too deep and if he begins doubting himself now, all could be lost. The reason the ardents have always said that trying to see the future is of Odium is because Honor was able to see that much before he died: Odium will use future sight to bring about the end he desires. Odium sees this boy, so kind, so incapable of hate, and thus he twists him to make Renarin hated instead. By everyone, including himself. How amusing it is to Odium that his pawns should be tied to Truth. The Truthless and the Truthwatcher. Two assassins who weep as they kill. But Szeth was merely a tool. Renarin shall be his champion.

*Note to self: Swimmingly knows a scary amount of biology. And is himself scary. Avoid.*

Thank you! I must say, some credit must go to Meta, as well. He helped me hash out and tweak some of those final Padan Fain rules last night. But I think this will be a great game to run for my first time. Really looking forward to it!

@Calmseer I probably should have said this earlier (ideally before throwing multiple walls of text at you), but a small note of caution: You are the author here, and this is your vision. If you have a vision of a world and a magic system, then don't let us distract you from it with out own idle fancies. Of course we're more than happy to offer suggestions and criticisms, but you're the one who's going to be sitting down and writing the thing, so you have full control over the discussion. That said, it may actually be worthwhile at some point for a few of us to take on something of an adversarial role to you. It seems you have a fairly deep idea of how you want the magic to function, and may just be having trouble getting it across. So if you say "Wood mages can grow plants really fast out of seeds", that leaves a fairly large amount of wiggle room for terrible people like me to nominate themselves for watchlists with. In that spirit, then, would you like it if I and/or a few others took on the role of an evil mage/organization in your universe who's sole goal is to munchkin the Damnation out of the magic system and subvert it to their own ends? You can then take note of possible holes in your specification of the magic system, and either explain your vision in more depth, realize/accept those implications in your world (and so increase the depth of your worldbuilding), or perhaps even change your magic system entirely to stop such abuse. No matter what, I think your understanding of your own magic system and the world you're building around it can only be improved by such a discussion. So example challenge, then: "Hello, my name is Kelsier ( ) and I'm a Metal mage. I just, from across the room, sprouted the earring my foe was wearing into a giant spike the pierced his skull. Is that cool with you, God Calmseer?"

No, and he would even have some difficulty using Nalthian Breath. Source:

When you see a paperback edition of The Way of Kings that has an extra illustration of the Cryptics in the front and seriously consider buying it. (I already own the hardcover) When you finally decide not to buy it and wish you could take a Memory of it and redraw it when you get home.

NO clue why someone in this thread got a downvote--I'm assuming it was on accident (it happens, especially with storming touchscreens and scrolling through) and have corrected this. To the theory! Can you please elaborate on exactly why you think the Surges have been messed with? I'm more than a little sleep deprived right now, but reading through this thread and your other, all I can come up with is that the Essences are weird, and you're choosing to ignore the in-text argument from the Ars Arcanum that the Body Essences shouldn't be taken literally due to that being the more boring option. You've put considerable time, thought, and energy into creating and developing this theory of yours, so I'm sure that there's more to it than that. I just can't seem to find the actual foundation for your argument, and so everything built upon those basic premises seem like (super-interesting and well-detailed) fan fiction (of the best sort), rather than an actual explanation or theory of how things came to be. Like one of the old What if...? comic books (What if...Ghostrider killed Daredevil? What if...Spiderman Joined the Fantastic Four? and the like). I loved them, and they were great, but they were also clearly separate and distinct.

A god called Blue. Whenever he manifests, he is the colour of the sky above the clouds, with eyes like the dark on the edge of space. Looking at him gives a sense of vertigo and scale; he is still like the sun is still. He is not a god of weather, cloud, wind, or even air; his realm is simply the sky, unmarred and unbroken. Each night the hunter-gods of moon and star hunt him, and their shafts of moonlight and sunlight pierce his body, striking the earth. With dawn, the sun cauterizes and sews each of his wounds in exchange for a piece of his heart, and through that piece the sunlight shines down.

Ugh, guys you have me really torn. I really like Kurkistan's creative uses for the elements, however, I am afraid of the OP-ness ruining the world for the non-mages. While I want the magic to have a strong presence in my world, I do not want it to overrun it. Swimmingly, your limitation idea is brilliant. It perfectly limits the potential for god-like feats while still allowing a little room for a slightly extended mage fight by only using small magical feats. My idea for the major plot is to have the big baddy be an aether mage. The aether mages are unique because they attain their source from the sun, and thus are allowed almost constant magic during daylight hours. I think for this reason, the aether mage would probably be the ruler of the world.

Quotes. Source: Source:

When you expected WoR to be longer than it actually is...

You can also just set up a new disposable gmail address for this game if you don't feel comfortable handing out your email address.

When thousand-page books are lighter than feathers if they're written by Brandon Sanderson.

I want a single strip of paper the width of a receipt printed with the complete works of Brandon Sanderson so I can have wallpaper for my entire house. Each room will be named after a different book.

Nothing to worry about. It will just have a more fitting name since your omnibus will be an actual book filled bus.

I'd say its a good thing that we're getting more people signing up. Hopefully they've enjoyed watching our previous struggles

"Why do you stain my hands, Despot? Why have the sins of many become mine? The king is dead…long live the king!" -Collected on Chach Chach Nan, fourteen seconds before death. Subject was a traitorous soldier assassin.

You dead, Mon? And excellent. Looks like the Shamed Guard is in.

I agree with Awes' points on the whole 'secret guessing' thing, but I would also like to add that the whole time-sensitive aspect of it makes it really awkward if you don't sync up with the schedule of the person in charge. So, for instance, I had no chance to get the shield at all, because the reward was offered at around midnight or later in my timezone, and then all were claimed three hours later. Thus it can be rather unfair if the competition only begins later on in the game. Though that will always be true due to the clues coming in at specific times in the day. In addition, it does basically mean that the first group in discussion to find it who are all online get it, if there's more than one prize being offered. I'm surprised that didn't happen here, really. I'm not sure how this can be fixed if there are multiple rewards offered though. On the subject of rewards, I feel that Claincy's reward of a single Breath was fine, because it was a much more minor prize than a shield or Shardhammer. Items shouldn't be game-changing on their own like that (though just for clarity's sake, the Shardhammer is actually a delayed-kill item, not that it really makes much of a difference here). At the very least, I feel that the Shardhammer should have been a single-use item, and that the items offered should either have been listed at the start so we knew of their existence, or have been items taken from the general list.

Here you go: Well.... I never actually officially swore the oath. It was mainly a temporary thing since I had achieved the level of Scadrian Waffle Cook.

It can probably be done, but none of the staff is online. Probably because it's Saturday. GASP. The spam bots have learned our culture and have exploited our weakness!

I believe this brings us to a second, more pressing point of order: You're a fishy greenmonsta. I'm a monstrous green fish. THIS TOWN AIN'T BIG ENOUGH FOR THE TWO OF US.

Well, it could if he sees himself as healed. I think the scars, Shash brand included, are indicative of his depression and so forth, rather than a message he's trying to give.

The quality of the puns in this thread are d-windle-ing

Savant at 1600!

I will accept the truth even if it contradicts my beliefs. This would be really, really powerful. I can tell if I'm lying to myself just by asking my spren. If enough people did that, the world would be much different. I will argue about stuff on the Internet. Because someone is wrong on the Internet. I will actually commit to courses of action and not procrastinate. Not particularly true right now, but I could use an incentive.

Had a random thought that the santhid eye was very fitting for a symbol of the observer's guild. I've already made something for the Wafflesworn and Newcagoans so I thought, why not? Here is a modified version of the Santhid eye I had previously made for my icon page. And a smaller version if needed:

Hmm... You have defenses against the typical pests. But what about: Waffle-loving chulls Flour-fetish chasmfiends Butter-hating koloss Rotspren Flying Dorito Ships A certain toy panda Other abnormalities.

*clears throat* I believe someone called for the fandom monster? This seems like the perfect thread for me... See, the most fun kinds of horrfying and tragic AUs are those which are closest to canon, the ones that could almost be plausible. And oh are there some wonderful ideas we could toss around... It's funny. Kogi and I ended up coming down almost exactly the same way on an Evil!Shallan. I'm unsurprised. Kogi and I have very similar thoughts on a lot of things... Shallan See, Shallan is almost on the verge of villiany herself. She's an accomplished liar, involved in the underground, and she's broken in ways that even she has difficulty admitting. She tells herself that she's doing what she has to in order to survive, in order to protect her family, in order to save the world. She shows herself willing to sacrifice those ideas of right and wrong when she steals from Jasnah, putting her needs above her morality. As Pattern keeps showing her more and more scenes from her past, forcing her to remember, to relive, she has a harder and harder time pretending she isn't a monster. She blames him -- irrationally, she knows -- but blames him nonetheless. If it wasn’t for him, she wouldn’t be a Radiant. Her mother wouldn’t be dead at her hand. None of this would have happened. Pattern does as he must, showing her the truths, making her confront them but it drives her further and further away from him. She keeps up the illusion of the girl with the lighthearted wit, but it is an illusion nonetheless. Inside, the truths of her past are making her colder and colder. Pattern accepts this as a matter of course. He was told time and time again of the cruelty of humans. As Shallan begins treating him less like a person and more like a tool, he accepts his role with a suffering endurance. This is the price he knew he would have to pay in order to come to the physical realm. Things seemed nice for a while, but those days are long gone. Shallan speaks to him when she needs a sword or a lock picked or a code broken, and he obeys quietly, waiting for the day when she will inevitably kill him and find the revenge she seeks. The only other person who sees this hardening in Shallan is Mraize, who not only recognizes it, but encourages it. He marvels at the talent of his little knife, as she accepts that which she was always meant to be. He knows that he is winning her over as Veil becomes the reality and the girl known as Shallan becomes a mask for her to wear, a part for her to play. She joined as a way to betray the Ghostbloods, but their reasoning has wormed its way into her, and Mraize’s honeyed explanations and persuasions – so at odds with this broken face – are making her compromise, bit by bit, until she is well and truly theirs. It isn’t to protect her brothers anymore, it isn’t because she wants to find out about them anymore. She continues following their orders because she know longer knows what she is without them. The first time Mraize asks her to kill, she can’t even feel shocked. Only a hollow reminder that it will not be her first time. Nor even her second or her third. The images of her mother, of the lover, of Tyn rise to the surface of her mind. That which was once so carefully locked away Pattern has pried open and let free. There is no blood with a Shardblade. Pattern stays perfectly clean, as though he has no part in the things she does, as though her sins cannot stain him. She resents him for that as well. When the time comes to go through with the act however, the memory which fills her mind is not that of her mother or of Tyn, but of the man who never raised a hand to her, who took the blame for her first murder. She always thought Balat was the one who would emulate their father, but Shallan finds him within herself, even as she thinks back to kneeling on the ground beside him, a soft song on her lips, and a sparkling silver chain slowly twisted tighter and tighter after the poison could not end it. After something like that, what more could Mraize’s orders do to stain her soul? She feels only the slightest bit of remorse when she hears the name, a bare nod to the fondness she once felt. Tyn could not finish her mission, but Veil has proved herself more competent than Tyn ever was. Jasnah Kholin must not be allowed to continue. The Elsecaller interferes with their work. ---- Maxal, as is unsurpising to everyone, we disagree on Renarin's characterization. See, the thread isn't necessarily good characters being evil... so much as it is protagonists becoming antagonists, right? So, how about antagonist Renarin, hmm? Let's give that a try. Renarin – Because I Enjoy Making Myself Cry The ardents were correct: seeing the future is a terrible curse. Renarin has learned to be alone when the highstorm hits. His father always preferred to have those close to him help keep him from hurting himself when his visions came, but Renarin’s visions are those best suffered alone. Dalinar was not aware of himself when he saw the messages from the Almighty; he left his body behind. Renarin was always trapped, horribly aware as the control of his body was taken from him. He screams as the vision takes him, collapsing to the floor, his fingers seeking out the charcoal in his pocket. He learned to always carry something with which to write. The broken fingernails and blood-streaked fingers had taught him quickly that when the visions came, the glyphs would be written one way or another. He suffers through it, enduring the terrible images of what is to come, praying to the Almighty to release him from this horrible nightmare. His hands move of their own accord, scrawling glyphs into the floor. He feels tears run down his face but cannot do anything to wipe them away. It will be over soon, he hopes. He prays. But in the moment, it seems endless. Those images, those horrible truths he is forced to watch. They cannot be real. This cannot be the future. And yet, he knows with more certainty than he knows his own name that the things he sees will come to pass. Kaladin comes to find him after the storm passes and the vision fades. The former bridgeman rushes over as he finds Renarin trembling on the floor, clutching his head. The charcoal piece has been flung as far as possible from him, his first action after regaining control of himself. As Kaladin draws near however, Renarin cries out, trying to push himself away. “Renarin,” Kaladin says carefully. “The storm is passed. Are you still in a vision?” Renarin can only shake his head, still trying to put distance between himself and Kaladin, but feeling too weak to get away. He’s going to see, he’s going to know, it’s going to happen… Kaladin hesitates, not wanting to upset him, then sees the glyphs laid out in shaky handwriting around the shaking prince. Bridge Four, Leader, Death. Bridge Four, Leader, Death. Bridge Four, Leader, Death. “Is this… me?” Kaladin asks carefully, taking another slow step forward. He knows Renarin isn’t in a vision anymore, but something is terribly wrong, and it’s Kaladin’s job to help make it right. Renarin can only nod before loses control of himself for the second time in one hour, this time to sobs rather than images. At some point he realizes Kaladin’s arms are around him, his hands rubbing smooth, calming circles on Renarin’s back. “It’s okay, it’s okay,” Kaladin says again and again, and though Renarin knows they aren’t true, they help. He doesn’t know what is happening exactly. Is Kaladin his bodyguard, and he the lighteyed prince? Is Kaladin his superior officer, and he a still-new member of Bridge Four? Are they peers, two Knights Radiant of equal standing? Or have they reached the point where the roles and ranks and rules no longer even matter? “It’s me,” Renarin whispers, still holding on to Kaladin like a lifeline in the storm. “It has to be me.” Kaladin stiffens, though to his credit, he doesn’t let go. His voice catches slightly as he asks, “Are you sure? Is there any other way?” Renarin shakes his head slightly. “If I don’t… all is lost. Everything, Kaladin.” The two stay silent for a while, before Kaladin finds his voice again. “When?” “I don’t know,” Renarin mumbles. “Soon. Maybe a few weeks.” Kaladin considers that for a moment, and Renarin isn’t entirely sure how he will react. Will he be mad? Try to stop Renarin from going through with it? Will he try to kill Renarin before it could happen? “The others will blame you,” Kaladin says, sounding somewhat distant. Focusing on what would happen to Renarin afterward as a way to avoid thinking about it, perhaps. “You might have to run away. They might chase after you.” “They will,” Renarin says hollowly. “I saw that too.” --- He knows as soon as the moment comes. A sick lurching sense of déjà vu overtakes him. It’s like watching a stormwall out on a flat plain. Nowhere to hide, no way to fight back. Nothing to do as that inevitable destruction bears closer until it is upon you. They’re in the midst of a small fight, nothing Bridge Four and the Kholin shardbearers can’t handle, but Renarin knows. He steps back, pulling himself away from the fighting. “K-kaladin!” His voice breaks over the name. Kaladin turns toward him, looking to see if he’s been hurt or something, but the look on Renarin’s face tells him enough. For once, Renarin wishes Kaladin isn’t the one who can always understand him. The weight of understanding settling across Kaladin’s expression seems almost more painful than the idea of what is about to happen. Renarin finds that he’s holding a knife. He doesn’t remember picking it up but he must have sometime in the battle. In a way he’s thankful for that. This way he doesn’t have to force Glys to be a part of this. His hand trebles as he looks down, the lights reflecting off the blade shaking and flashing. Kaladin calls for the men to hold the line as he steps out as well, letting Adolin take over command. Renarin’s brother looks back to see if they need him as well, but Kaladin waves him back. As Kaladin approaches, Renarin takes a step back, wanting to throw the knife as far from himself, wanting to tell Kaladin to run away, knowing that if he does, all will be lost. He’s seen what will happen, he knows there’s no way out. Everything is happening exactly as he saw. “It’s now?” Kaladin asks quietly. Renarin nods. “There’s no other way?” Renarin shakes his head. Something wet slides down his cheek as he does so. “Kaladin, I can’t. I can’t do this…” Kaladin takes hold of his wrist, stilling the knife’s trembling. “You’ve already said you have to. I’m not afraid to die, Renarin. If the choice is between me and the world, I know which choice I would pick.” “I don’t…” “Yes, you do,” Kaladin says. “We both do.” He raises Renarin’s hand, placing the knife right above the embroidered crest on his uniform. “Right here. Push straight in, right between the ribs and to the heart, then pull it back out. It’ll be quick. I’ll barely feel it. Take my stormlight, you’ll need it to run.” Renarin can feel the moment press closer and closer. When he hesitates, Kaladin pinches his arm sharply, and Renarin reflexively gasps, pulling in the stormlight Kaladin was carrying. Adolin notices them, sees Renarin holding a knife to Kaladin’s chest. “Renarin! What are you—“ The moment hits. His grip tightens on the knife as he feels the choice he needs to make. Kaladin nods, just once. The knife goes in.