Greywatch

Kaladin and Adolin, been shipping it since WoK. I'm surprised it's gone down in popularity, being honest!

Yeah... I think what Dalinar said in response to Kaladin is one of the worst things Brandon ever wrote. It was 2014 and I try to have grace, but he said "be a model minority". I am truly disgusted with that scene.

I guess I totally fundamentally disagree that Dalinar had any redeeming qualities, or at least, none that make him deserving, so I don't really feel like playing a game with this? People don't deserve redemption, otherwise the word redemption is meaningless. For me, that's a "words mean things" argument. For me with Moash, I'm fully on his side vis a vis how meaningless and cruel the system is, and I'm resentful on his behalf how the Kholins and such get to walk through life squeaky clean, on top of the world.

Difficulty dealing with pain causes some to run away from it. Both Dalinar and Moash ran away, it's just that people are more willing to ascribe nobility and give sympathy to Dalinar because they know he eventually pulls out of it.

Yes, Dalinar getting super drunk was him being unable to face what he did - and running from facing it is denial, 100%. He didn't face what he did, he refused to accept it, he ran from the pain. That's Moash.

I think Dalinar responded basically the exact same way as Moash: with complete denial and avoidance of his own responsibility for his actions. He had a period of wretched and immoral denial of his own actions for years. He didn't respond to his own actions "the right way" until Oathbringer, which is multitudes more time than Moash is getting before judgment. If Dalinar can try and turn himself around in the face of righteous hatred from the people whose lives he's wrecked (the Herdazians were too nice to him), then so can Moash.

No need for spoiler-tagging OB and RoW here, they are well out of spoiler period. Personally, everything Dalinar did in the war and at the Rift was worse than what Moash did, Brandon just wrote it so that the people of the Rift don't matter to us as much as the people Moash killed. Evi being an accident doesn't make up for the fact that Dalinar killed people on purpose. That's just me, but I 100% am not on board for rating Moash's crimes worse just because we like the people he killed more.

That line is exactly why I decided it's denial and not a genuine lack of regret. That's literally Moash feeling terrible, the depths of misery, and unable to admit to himself why he feels bad. He feels bad after killing someone who was a friend; the words he says about why that is are not true. I simply don't take his internal narrative at face value, because his internal narrative is swimming in Odium's no-emotion juices. Brandon has shown complete willingness to have characters' prejudices and lies they believe and misconceptions exist in their internal narrative and I don't think Moash is in any way exempt from that.

I 100% believe it's possible and also I'm rooting for it. Brandon actually lost me, a bit, in RoW with just how terrible Moash was, it was almost unbelievable in a literal "oh, I don't know if I believe you, Brandon". Moash in RoW is so clearly not fully on board with what he's doing, he's fully in denial. Big difference. Can't wait to see how his arc shakes out, it's one of the things I'm MOST curious about for SA5.

Yes, thank you for grabbing the quote, that was exactly what I had in mind when I said what I said. Insisting that he's not sorry is great character writing for a character who can't get what he's done out of his own head and trying to put a different spin on why he can't stop himself thinking about it. I appreciate the help in backing up my point.

Moash definitely feels bad. If he wasn't sorry, he wouldn't have to constantly tell himself that he doesn't feel bad. Brandon doesn't hand-feed character; sometimes the text requires us to understand that what a character believes isn't necessarily true.

Thanks for the explanation, Treamayne! Couldn't have said it better.

Against the grain, but I do want to see Adolin become a Radiant. I don't think there needs to be a normal guy, this is the people becoming Knights Radiant series, becoming a Radiant is tied to tons of catharsis in characters' journeys and growth, and that's what I want to see. Other than the Kholins, though, I like the idea of more middle-aged people being chosen by spren. I would enjoy Kaladin's mom being chosen.