Llayne

So... you seem to imply that people in authority or who are older are always right and should never be challenged. If that's the way you think then we're never going to agree on this. Dalinar said he's thought about everything Adolin said many times, but it never changed his opinion. I'm using the results to justify my point here...but only AFTER Adolin spoke to him did he truly consider them and decide to abdicate. Sometimes you do need to hear things from somebody else. Just because he got angry when they talked doesn't mean he wasn't responsible... he was trying to do the right thing and his father kept trying to shirk him down. He refused to see something that was clear as day to Adolin which can be very frustrating. I've never said Adolin was perfect. As far as the painting example... no lives were on the line, but Adolin believes they are on the line in the story. So it wasn't simple advice, it was a warning, to use your words. I'm going to exit this conversation since we've been dancing around the same points for a while now. Half of our discussion has not been arguing the book, but the definition of responsibility. I agree with you on a lot of points, but I get the impression you see everything Adolin does in a negative light, which is the exact opposite of the people you see who turn him into saint.

I understand your viewpoint, it's a common one. The phrase "Don't come to me with a problem unless you have a solution" is often thrown about. I don't buy into it completely, but that's a different discussion. I fully agree that Adolin didn't have the experience, follow through, foresight, or any number of other positive traits that would have helped him handle this situation better. Those things are different than responsibility. Adolin spoke up when nobody else would. He exercised " the moral obligation to behave correctly toward or in respect of." (one of the definitions of responsibility by the way) He had a moral obligation to give his father the truth (as he saw it) when nobody else would. That was his burden. He forced his father to consider the fact that the visions may not be true, and contemplate what could happen if he continues down that path. He could have ruined his relationship with his father in the process... they were definitely strained until they finally talked. Skipping forward... his attempts to keep his father from abdicating after the fact does speak of a lack of responsibility. Nothing had changed at that point, they still though the visions were fake. As an aside: I'm not sure where the idea of only giving feedback or critique when asked comes from. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. If I was on a bus and the driver was driving straight into a wall, I certainly wouldn't sit there and hope the driver asked for my input on his driving. I'd say something, and essentially take responsibility for the lives of everyone in the bus. (or House Kholin) I've already acknowledged that Adolin is a work in progress. Maturing is also about learning from your mistakes. Your kind of have to make them first, or you'll end up like Jasnah and not know how to apologize. The most important step is the next one. Picking yourself back up and trying to do better. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I think that's Adolin's biggest problem, he's a work in progress. We see Dalinar as he is now and forgive him all the terrible things he did in the past because we can see the finished product. All we see of Adolin right now is a giant pile of brightly colored LEGO pieces and no picture of what it'll end up becoming.

Interesting comment. I suppose it's the characterization of her 'leering' at Kaladin that colors most of my opinion. Also her comment at the end that "Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin." I just finished OB (again) recently, so both of those are fairly fresh in my mind. You're right though, there are plenty of scenes where she's thinking about how good Adolin looks. Maybe it's because we're in her POV and she's verbalizing/thinking her thoughts about Adolin that makes me think of them as more abstract and less passionate? I'd have to do some research to form a better opinion.

A fair enough point, but I'm not talking about what she needs in the large scale or long term, I'm trying to identify what she wanted in that point in time when she made the decision. Having just gone from point of stress to point of stress, I doubt what she wanted was more stress. I think she want a break. A chance to collect herself in safety. Yes, ultimately she'll need to face her issues, but having a place to fall back to is important as well. As I think was mentioned previously in this thread, I also believe that Adolin's acceptance of her personalities might end up being a barrier to getting better. Sure, he refuses to 'be intimate' (?) with Veil, but if his attitude helps her normalize the situation she might not have the drive to do the work and 'get healthy.' I'm curious to see how their relationship develops in the next book... there are so many variables we dont know.

This echoes my own thoughts on the matter. WoB could be 100% truthful and still doesn't guarantee Shallan and Kaladin never get together. "She made her choice." Is a good turn of phrase, and doesn't mean that she won't agonize over that choice in the coming books. It doesn't mean Adolin won't continue to see her as struggling with the choice and start to act jealously... something I think he's avoided so far. Then there is the previously mentioned 'Adolin dying' option. ----------------------------------------------------------- I'm not going to link the dozens of great posts in this thread, but I'd like to circle back to the strength/weakness or love/comfort discussion. I never considered the scene much before reading this thread, but now I definitely have to wonder. It does feel like Shallan MIGHT be choosing the comfort or safety offered by Adolin compared to the visceral passion she (or Veil, but that's an entirely different topic) seemed to feel about Kaladin. I also don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I agree that you won't develop unless you get out of your comfort zone and face challenge or your fears, but I think what Shallan is looking for right now is to heal and recover. To figure out who and what she is. I think she kept rushing toward danger as a means to distract herself. (though I may be mis-remembering that dialogue between her and Jasnah near the end) Either way, to heal and self reflect I imagine she would want a safe place, and could be one of the reasons she chose Adolin. Whether that's what she wants and/or needs long term will likely be covered in the next few books, which is why I don't think we'll be done with the triangle any time soon.

I wouldn't categorize it as giving advice, more of a confrontation. Adolin confronted his father with a 'truth' that he saw and that nobody else would or could say to the Blackthorn. He was trying to prevent the downfall of his House. Did we see any of his generals speak to Dalinar this way? Did Renarin? Something needed to be said and nobody else was going to do it, so Adolin took that responsibility. Standing up to your parents can be difficult for anyone, let alone when your father is the nigh-legendary Blackthorn. The fact that it left both of then shaken afterward should speak to emotional depth of the scene, and what they felt was on the line. Part of the problem is that we have the benefit of seeing everything play out, so I understand it's hard not to judge Adolin on the outcome of his actions as opposed to trying to glean his intent from the clues we have. In a similar vein I don't allow the fact that Jasnah became Queen, and is IMO undoubtedly a better choice than Adolin, override the fact that he not only backed out of that responsibility but (in true Adolin form) didn't look at the consequences. He was prepared to leave the kingdom without a viable leader just because he didn't feel comfortable taking the role. The fact that it worked out for the better doesn't change what he did. Had he been a more mature person at that time he would have accepted the responsibility of being King, despite his own feelings to the contrary. Just as Dalinar took on the burden of diplomat, despite the fact that he felt ill-suited to the task. People's mistakes, and how they deal with them, are part of what makes them compelling character. Just refer to ANY of the MC's. I think Adolin is an interesting character. He's a good person in general, especially on the surface, but he has a dark streak in him born from the cutthroat society of Alethi politics. He's probably more like Sadeas than he would care to admit. He's also got some deep insecurities, partially due to his mixed heritage (my guess... he's mentioned it a few times but never with any emotion) and the fact that he's the son of the Blackthorn. Dalinar was absent for a good portion of Adolin's young life, and drunk for another significant portion... so not the best father figure. He also lost his mother. I know BS said he wasn't initially a main character and I don't know if that changed along the way. He's definitely a WIP character, in the 'hypocrite' stage mentioned in the books, and if he doesn't become a MC his growth/arc will likely be spread out over several more books. He's likely to be in this transition stage for a while.

I don't know... if you saw a civilian beating up a cop, responsibility might make you go help out the cop. If the cop later turns out to shoot the civilian, does that make it your fault? The two were clearly in a fight, so shouldn't you have foreseen the consequences of your actions and the escalation of force? I apologize for the rather tortured example, but I don't think this story-line truly speaks to a lack of responsibility on Adolin's part. Adolin felt that his father's visions were crazy and that they were leading House Kholin in the wring direction. He could either let it go an let his House fall to ruin or he could try to do something about it. So he confronts Dalinar. From the wiki, since I couldn't find the chapter myself. In his mind he wants his father to accept that fact that his visions aren't real.. or at least consider it. He wants Dalinar to seek help. In Adolin's mind his father just needs to go back to the way he used to be. It's as simple as ignoring the visions. Dalinar, a man of extremes, couldn't accept that fact. It's all or nothing for the Blackthorn... either he's sane or he's crazy. Upon hearing of Dalinar's plan to abdicate Adolin immediately sees that 'of course' this is what his father would do and laments the fact that he didn't think of it. This speaks more to a lack of experience and forethought on Adolin's part, not a lack of responsibility. This was a much better example than mine.

I'd say they were both bigoted, and both helped each other grow over course of books 2 and 3. Adolin is nice to darkeyes, treating them kindly as long as the established social dynamic is in place. Lighteyes rule over darkeyes... that's the way things are 'supposed' to be. Within this social dynamic Adolin has no problem being kind to soldiers and servants, and actually treating them like real people. In this I see Adolin as simply being a product of his culture and station. Where he has a problem is when a darkeyes starts moving above his station. I think that's his initial dislike of Kaldadin... although that was probably reinforced by Kaladin being outside the chain of command, being overly familiar with the King and Dalinar... and Kaladin's abrasive attitude toward Adolin and lighteyes in general. Let's not pretend Kaladin is always pleasant to be around. While I do think Adolin helped shift Kaladin's perception of lighteyes, he wasn't the main catalyst. Nor was Dalinar. Dalinar and Adolin's actions might have made Stormblessed judge them on their own merits as opposed to lumping them with alm the other lighteyes, but IMO the big changes came from his time in the Wall Guard. The comments about how the tenners conversations sounded exactly like darkeyed soldiers and seeing their distrust of higher lighteyes was crucial... along with the off screen time he spent with them getting to know them as 'real' people. Circling back around, I dont think Adolin has completely erased his bias either... at least we haven't seen 'proof' of that on screen. I think he's simply started judging Kaladin on his own merits... and started making adjustments in his 'social dynamic' to account for Radiants.

Anagram - I used to post on the Jim Butcher forums a few years ago, and a Star Wars forum years before that... but that's about it. I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but since I just finished a reread of OB I can't help but compare the communities fascination of Adolin with Wit's lecture on art at the end of the book. "Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate - but at least being hated is better than nothing."

I generally like what we've been shown of Adolin so far. I thought the scenes of him confronting his father in book one were well done, his actions after the duel in book two showed how honorable AND spoiled he could be, and that book three might have shown the first signs of him 'cracking.' Though the books haven't dug too deeply into it yet, the feeling that he isn't living up to how his father, brother and most of society sees him can be a terrible burden. How long has that been going on I wonder? The books HAVE shown that things come easy to him, they have also shown, both implicitly and explicitly, that he's had to work for them as well. This strikes me as a kid who is athletically gifted and became high school quarterback... hard work can be relative when you have natural talent. He's now seen things are a lot more dangerous than his natural ability can handle. He's 'gone to college to play with the big boys' and he's way outside of his comfort zone. Does he have the grit to truly work hard and learn what he needs to learn or will he stick with what he's comfortable with? I'd say at the end of Oathbringer the answer was no. He turned down the crown in order to remain a High Prince, duelist and general... things he's been preparing for his entire life. Given that he already has concerns about living up to what others think of him, how is he going to react knowing that he turned his back on his duty? I don't see Adolin as shallow, but we have only been given a limited POV... a very small slice of what I hope is a longer arc. Much like the tension in a horror movie comes from the suspense, part of the reason I enjoy Adolin as a character is because he's not the MC/designated hero and I don't know what's going to happen.

Layne here. Long time Brandon Sanderson fan... I actually found him by reading Warbreaker online while I should have been working. I've read just about everything he's published now (except Alcatraz... can't seem to buy them in ereader format) and am eagerly awaiting his next books. I'll probably just lurk fo a while... I like to read all Cosmere theories that are flying around and learn about any tidbits or easter eggs I missed on previous read throughs. I guess that's about it... see you all on the forums.