Ati

Personally, I think we're going a little far if we're judging Wayne for getting some action. Unless you want to suggest that he was lying, actually knew there was a battle going on and decided to continue playing tonsil hockey anyway. Does anyone actually think this is the case?

So, I actually signed on expecting to create a new thread somewhat similar to this one as I finally figured out what bothered me about Wayne in this book. First, let me say that in my opinion, Wayne is being done a disservice by some of the posts here, so I'll offer a brief defense. Many have picked on WaterTowerGate as a reason to dislike Wayne. I happen to disagree. Pretend, just for a moment, that Steris hadn't grown as a character since Alloy. Then pretend you're Wayne. Do you really not do everything you can to stop that wedding? Wax had clearly been smitten with Marasi, and clearly would have been miserable with Steris. Now, we've gotten to know Steris better, but Wayne, hasn't (because the dislike is mutual.) So I would offer that first as perspective. Secondly, the phrase "paved with good intentions" was used here. And I think many who are upset about the water tower might agree with it. Generally though, we use that phrase to mean one of two things, "you didn't think it through, dummy" or "my value system disagrees with yours." Here's the thing, Wayne did think it through (mostly). He's decided that it is acceptable to break the law to save a friend. If you disagree with that value judgment, fine, but at least recognize that it could be a valid conclusion. (The means used, of course, are something else entirely .) Anyway, on to the Wayne bashing. I loved Wayne in the first two books. I viewed him as a character of intelligence and depth who was delicate enough that he felt he had to hide it beneath a "Wayne-like" exterior. He has always had some of the other characters convinced that the exterior is the real Wayne. In this book, I felt like he convinced Brandon as well. The scene that I think bothered me the most was the one where they infiltrated the set's repair site of the airship. Wayne actually took the time to manipulate an unconscious body and joke around while his life and those of three of the people closest to him were on the line. I don't recall him doing anything similar in the previous books and it's the first time I can recall that I can't even sympathize with his actions, nevermind agree with them.

Hear hear.

I think the idea of the surges being used differently is fun, and to the extent that Numb describes, is something we will see. As to the glasses part...I would be pretty impressed if Brandon could write that in in a way that felt like it tied well into the nature of spren. So far, the system we've had described to us is based on spren being drawn to individuals who: a) are "broken" or "cracked" and, epitomize, or seek to epitomize the characteristic that spren is tied to. I'll accept that there may be other factors. I think Brandon is strongly hinting at some sort of heredity or network factor at work, or just a manipulation of the system, if we look at the Kholin family. Does anyone have other thoughts on how spren choose the person they're bonding with? In this case, though I appreciate your rationale as to them having a different perspective (which may still hold true), I'd be very surprised if it was because of the glasses. If it is though, it may be worth noting that Truthwatchers could end up being more common among (wealthier? not sure of the relative cost of glasses on Roshar) older craftsman. Ym's need for glasses may have been tied to the visual focus required for his field of work.

Also, when Adolin tells Sadeas that he's not the better man that his father thinks he is, he doesn't make it sound like this is something new. I'm inclined to think that Adolin "snapped" prior to this scene in the investiture sense. I don't know if it made him snap, but I think it almost certainly contributed to Sadeas biting it. Based on what we hear from both Dalinar and Adolin, the bonds with the Ryshadium run deep. My best guess would be somewhere between someone having a beloved pet die and someone's bonded spren dying. Relatively traumatic, either way. Might contribute to a guy doing something...rash...

Ketek, I had noticed this as well. By my count, we have Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, Elhokar (he sees spren, at least), possibly Adolin. So far as I know, this accounts for everyone with Kholin blood. I can only think of a couple reasons why this would be. 1: These are the people Brandon has been able to get "on screen", making it convenient to use them. I think Brandon is far too adept a writer for this to be the case. 2: Spren recognize either bloodlines or tradition as a factor when bonding a surgebinder. [spoiler]We've seen that two of the three magic systems on Scadrial are hereditary. If this is a factor on Roshar, it could have interesting implications for the other shardworlds.[/spoiler] 3: It could be the result of some form of deal or arrangement. Possibly Dalinar's Nightwatcher boon or something similar. edit: can someone tell me if that spoiler isn't being hidden, and if so, how to fix it? First time trying that and not sure if it was done properly... If this turns out to be the case, I think you have to wonder even more about Gavilar...

I agree with this. I also agree with Aether's point that he appears to be on a path towards improvement. Worst case scenario though, based on your point, Moogle, Elhokar was drunk A LOT at the end of WoR. Could be the silver lining here.

Hey Vasteel, interesting question. My thoughts on his heir...one word, Amaram. And yeah, I agree, his widow will likely try for some particularly nasty form of revenge, I'd guess. Who knows, we've seen nothing to indicate that Amaram has married between Gavilar's murder and present day. They could even end up with a political union. That would be one seriously scary couple.

Really fun catch, but I'm almost positive this was just done by lashing, which would be just as incomprehensible to Adolin as awakening. My guess would be Brandon just teasing, otherwise I think there would be some really obscure easy to miss reference about color draining from another object, and I haven't seen it.

Good post. Great name.

I think a couple of these may be iffy (are we sure Sons of Honor don't want to restore the radiants, I suspect Gavilar may not have been the first with the visions) but in general, a lot of interesting points. In particular, not only did Nalan fail to come to Gavilar's rescue at the feast, he appears to have been in some way complicit in the assassination plot. His companion notes that he, presumably Szeth, has his lord's own blade. To me, this implies knowledge of Szeth's presence and purpose before things even got started. Will be curious to see how others weigh in on these.

Darn it EMT, the trolley problem and its relatives have always given me a headache. If Brandon reads this thread and gets an idea for some kind of runaway Chull trolley for book three, you and I are going to have words.

Very minor quibble in that, if I remember correctly, when Kaladin leaps the chasm in his Epic Leap of Epic Awesomeness they weren't being shot at by archers (though there had been some earlier). The Parshendi were there without bows just waiting for them to set the bridge. Regardless, agree wholeheartedly with the rest. Hear hear.

EMT, I sort of disagree on this part. Yes, his intent was to save the abandoned men. And I agree, that intent is probably what matters most to Syl and the bond, at least right now. However, he did, quite literally attack the Parshendi. At the end of WoK, we see Kaladin consider the Parshendi as people to a degree that no one else (that we've seen) had. And the implications of that combined with his slaughter of them to protect the Kholin army weighs on him. I think it's all a matter of his moral compass. So sure, he acted to protect, which is good, but I doubt it would be safe for him to disregard the costs of his actions just because of good intent. Note also, that this has been a repeating theme for him with as he often goes back to Lirin's statement that you can't kill to protect.

Great point Arondell. I think there would have to be a hierarchy to them. Kaladin has already pointed out conflicts to Syl regarding his fight with the Parshendi at the end of WoK. I think her responses and actions imply that the way to prioritize them exists and she just doesn't remember it yet. Though it probably also isn't the most pleasant topic for her to begin with. Anyway, so far, my bet would be that the Oaths are said in order of priority. Either that or the first one trumps the rest and they're in some other order. I have a tough time imagining any of the others taking precedence over the first because in a sense, the first seems to implicitly encompass them. As to the Roshone question, I suspect that it depends on the context. My guess, if the danger Roshone was in was being driven by evil or even neutral intent, Kaladin would step in to save his bacon. On the other hand, if someone was righteously (note, as someone mentioned above, the distinction between legally and righteously) smiting Roshone, Kaladin would be free to sit there and watch with a bowl of popcorn. Or whatever the Roshar equivalent of popcorn is. Not sure that Brandon's addressed this. Seems important...