Odium’s Plan to Free Himself and How He Will Be Defeated

[Confused]

THEORY IN BRIEF

 

I believe the Surges keep Odium captive in the Rosharian planetary system. As part of his long-term plan, Odium causes the listeners to create the Everstorm. The Everstorm will block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight on Roshar. Without that reinvestment, the Surges will not be able to renew themselves. Roshar will break apart, and Odium will be free to leave the Roshar system.

 

While the Everstorm circles, the human and other survivors will find themselves besieged in Urithiru surrounded by the Voidbringer hosts. Urithiru’s Stormlight resources will be severely depleted. To restore them, Kaladin will break free of the siege, travel to the Origin, and bring back to Urithiru substantial new Stormlight reserves. Urithiru will then be capable of fighting the Voidbringers and holding out far longer than Odium expects. Odium, fearing he may lose this war, will be forced to accept the challenge of a duel of champions. Kaladin will defeat Odium’s champion, reestablishing Odium’s captivity.

 

“TANAVAST’S DESIGN” OF ODIUM’S CAPTIVITY

 

The Rosharian System Imprisons Odium

 

The writer of the “second letter” claims Odium cannot leave the Rosharian system: “Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 69.) The writer is unsure “[w]hether this was Tanavast’s design or not…” (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 70.)

 

The Surges Form the Prison

 

The WoR Ars Arcanum author believes the ten Surges – “thought to be the fundamental forces by which [Roshar] operates – are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1084.) The in-world Words of Radiance author describes the Surges as “the bonds that drive Roshar itself.” (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 38, emphasis added.)

 

If the Surges do not accurately describe the “fundamental forces” of Roshar, then Honor must have had some other reason for placing them on Roshar. Whether by design or not, the result of their creation was to imprison Odium in the Rosharian system.

 

Evidence

 

The best proof that the Surges imprison Odium is the action he takes to escape his captivity. That is the Everstorm. Honor fears the Everstorm will cause Roshar to fall into dust. (WoK Paperback, pp. 1244-45.). That is the expected result when the “bonds that drive Roshar itself” – that literally hold the planet together – are stripped away.

 

Odium has no other reason to destroy Roshar. If he simply wanted to splinter Cultivation, he does not need to destroy Roshar to do so. He did not destroy Sel when he splintered Devotion and Dominion there and he did not previously destroy Roshar when he splintered Honor. The destruction of Roshar is simply the by-product of the elimination of the Surges. That is why I conclude that the Surges are the instruments of Odium’s captivity.  

 

ODIUM’S PLAN TO FREE HIMSELF

 

Stormlight Reinvests Roshar’s Magic, Including the Surges

 

Odium’s plan is to interrupt the cycle of magical reinvestment on Roshar, causing the Surges to fail. WoB (somewhere) states that magical investiture is generally a renewable resource. On Roshar, Stormlight is the means of that renewal. Kaladin describes Stormlight as “the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 469.) WoB analogizes Stormlight to the mist in Mistborn, It is the gaseous state of Honor’s (and Cultivation’s?) investiture on Roshar.

 

Two Elements to Odium’s Plan

 

Odium’s plan has two broad elements. The first is to soak up existing Stormlight through the creation of a horde of Voidbringers. Voidbringers, according to Szeth, can “hold [stormlight] in perfectly” (WoK Paperback, p. 13). The second element is to block the Highstorms’ reinvestment of Stormlight. The Everstorm accomplishes both elements.

 

The Everstorm will gain strength with each of its revolutions around Roshar. Its next pass will convert the Parshmen into Stormform listeners. During future passes, these new listeners will add their song to what the Shattered Plains listeners started, increasing the size and scope of the Everstorm. In his dream Kaladin sees the Everstorm as “so enormous as to make the continent – the world itself – into nothing by comparison“ – much bigger than when the Everstorm began on the Shattered Plains. (WoR Hardback, p. 369, emphasis in original.)

 

Because the Everstorm moves in the opposite direction from the Highstorms, as it grows in force it will first prevent the Highstorms from reaching the Rosharian continent. Eventually the Everstorm may prevent Highstorms from forming at all, blowing them away at their birth.

 

WoB states Highstorms were initially a meteorological event, but at some point became magical as well, presumably through the addition of Stormlight. We don’t know how Stormlight gets added to the Highstorms, although it’s a safe guess that that occurs at the Origin. Regardless, it seems reasonable to assume that a catastrophic storm multiples larger than a Highstorm should be able to kill a Highstorm in its cradle.

 

The Diagram’s Prediction

 

Taravangian’s Diagram seems to agree that the Everstorm is Odium’s path to freedom: "destroy [the listeners] outright before [one of them] obtains their power. ​It will form a bridge." (Epigraph to WoR Chapter 89, reformatted and emphasis added.) I interpret this statement to mean the Everstorm (created by the listeners’ “power”) is the bridge by which Odium will escape the Rosharian system.

 

Odium’s Plan to Destroy Surgebinders

 

Part of Odium’s plan has been to thwart or destroy those who might oppose him – Surgebinders: the Heralds and the KR. Odium has used several tactics to implement this stratagem:

• First, he influenced nine of the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact (as many in this Forum have speculated).

 

• Second, I believe Odium caused the Recreance (whatever its apparent immediate cause) to break up the KR and eliminate them.

 

• Third, he influenced Nale to kill fledging surgebinders (as many in this Forum have speculated) so the KR could not reestablish itself.

 

• Fourth, he caused the listeners to create the Everstorm. If the Everstorm can eliminate Stormlight, neither the Heralds nor the KR will be able to surgebind,

 

When Odium first set upon his plan, he was dealing only with the Heralds, inefficient users of Stormlight through their Honorblades. The spren, perhaps in anticipation of the Everstorm, created the Nahel bond with humans, a much more efficient means of using Stormlight and, hence, the Surges. This flaw in Odium’s plan enables the KR to hold out longer than Odium expects during the Siege of Urithiru.

 

Odium’s Plan Began Many Millenia Ago

 

Odium has been planning for the Everstorm a long time. The Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Everstorm is “a new thing, but old of design.” (WoR Hardcover, p. 1070.)

 

The Desolations began as a war by one of Roshar’s native populations, the listeners, to repel the human invaders of Roshar. WoB states there were no Desolations before humans came to Roshar. The humans won these wars, evicting the listeners from more and more territory. Hatred of humans led some of the listeners to become “unmade” by Odium into his creatures. These listener “gods” introduced the forms of power. Through these forms, Odium began to wield influence among the listeners.

 

Further losses to humans over the millennia led the Lost Legion to abandon their gods. Before the final battle of the Last Desolation, Melishi the Bondsmith developed his plan to enslave listeners by stripping them of their spren rather than destroying them (or so many suspect). I believe Odium influenced Melishi to adopt this plan so that Odium would have potential Stormform listeners available to him when the time came.

 

There has been no Desolation for the past four millennia because Odium realized he didn’t need to cause one – that humankind itself was capable of sufficient hatred without external influence. Thus, Honor tells Dalinar that

 

“[Odium]’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another…” (WoK Paperback, p. 1246, emphasis in original.)

 

Human forgetfulness has made them ignore Parshmen until the time comes for Odium to use them.

 

Recent Events

 

Gavilar came into contact with descendants of the Lost Legion a year or two before SA began. We can assume he found the black stone that he gave to Szeth at about the same time, since that is when Gavilar “changed” (according to several characters). WoB states that the light in that stone is not Stormlight and heavily implies it is a form of Odium’s investiture.

 

Part of Gavilar’s changed behavior was to become more religious. He also joined/founded the Sons of Honor, with Amaram. Their goal was to bring back the Voidbringers so the Heralds would return. I believe Odium influenced Gavilar in these respects. I also believe Odium influenced Gavilar to share his plan with the visiting listeners, anticipating the listeners would assassinate Gavilar and start the War of Vengeance. (Perhaps it will turn out that Amaram suggested to Gavilar that he do this.)

 

The war reduced the listeners to a state where they were willing to embrace the Everstorm. Odium influenced Venli to re-discover Stormform rather than the forms of peace, as Eshonai expected. We know the rest...

 

HOW ODIUM WILL BE DEFEATED

 

It begins with the re-founding of the KR and their re-occupation of Urithiru. I believe Honor’s plea to Dalinar to “unite them” has multiple levels: unite the KR, unite all humankind, and unite all of Roshar’s peoples, ancient and nouveau. Honor binds, hatred divides – a strong theme of SA. All will join in the war, including some of the Heralds, eventually finding their way to Urithiru. Honor says to Dalinar:

 

“The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows. You must prepare. Build of your people a fortress of strength and peace, a wall to resist the winds.” (WoK Paperback, p. 1242.)

 

Urithiru is shaped with the eastward side flat and the westward side curved to withstand the Everstorm – “a wall to resist the winds.” Honor calls the Everstorm the “Night of Sorrows” because of the extended period of darkness the Everstorm will bring.

 

Members of the New KR

 

Not coincidentally, the KR we currently know or anticipate includes members of different countries and races: at least four from Alethkar (Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin and Jasnah), one from Jah Keved (Shallan), one from the Reshi Isles (Lift), and one (probably) from Shinovar (Szeth). To these, I believe we can add the following characters (and maybe some others we haven’t met yet):

 

• Eshonai. Her fall into the chasms will find Eshonai reunited with her mother and the listeners who escaped Eshonai’s coup. Here her comet spren will finally chase away the stormspren and bond with her, making her a Willshaper – the first listener KR. (It’s hard to imagine her having a book otherwise…)

 

• Rysn. Whether or not Rysn (from Thaylenah) ends up a KR, she will be crucial nonetheless because of her Larkin. If she does become a KR, she will be a Releaser/Dustbringer because she is both astonishingly brave (foolhardy?) and obedient (to a fault). She already has had two Interludes…

 

• Ym. Since Ym (from Iri) had the Surge of Progression, I’m not convinced he’s dead. If Jasnah, without that Surge, could survive a stab through the heart, I think someone with that Surge should be able to survive as well. Though he was “killed” with a shardblade, so was Szeth, whom Nale resurrected with a Progression fabrial. Ym might have saved himself with his own Progression Surge. Probably a Truthwatcher.

 

• Zahel. As a Returned with Divine Breath and access to the Spiritual Realm, Zahel is an ideal candidate for a Bondsmith. By the time he reaches Urithiru, he may have recovered Nightblood. Nightblood will be ecstatic fighting the Voidbringers – so much evil investiture to consume, so little time…I’ll make a prediction here: Nightblood will be the means of destroying Odium, consuming every last bit of his Shard. I suspect that won’t be in SA though.

 

• Axies. I’m not sure whether Axies the Collector will be a KR, but if so, I believe he will also be a Bondsmith. Either way, his knowledge of spren will be enormously valuable to the anti-Odium faction: He will find a way to reverse the effects of Odium’s influence on the listeners who adopted the forms of power.

 

Kaladin/Fleet Will Seek New Stormlight Reserves

 

By the time we reach the last book in the series, the Everstorm survivors will be making their last stand at Urithiru, surrounded by the Voidbringer host. The Everstorm will have caused the near divestiture of all of Roshar’s Stormlight by interfering with the Highstorms. Urithiru’s Stormlight reserves will be almost gone, incapacitating the KR. Things will be looking bad for our heroes…

 

In desperation, Kaladin will use the remaining Stormlight reserves to seek out the Origin. The KR will launch a sortie to distract the Voidbringers. Because Kaladin is Fleet, he will race out of Urithiru and make his escape. But where is the Origin?

 

The Origin Is on One of Roshar’s Moons!

 

I believe Kaladin will find Stormlight on one of Roshar’s moons. Here is a WoB on point:

 

Q:  “Do the moons relate to the Highstorms at all?”

A:  “The moons...at all? Sure! You'll love this. The star's age, at Roshar – Earth astronomers would say that is a star which could not have planets with life on them orbiting it.”

 

I interpret Brandon’s oblique, but pertinent, answer in context to mean that the Stormlight that invests the Highstorms and brings life to Roshar comes from one of the moons. He tells us that Roshar should not have life on it, yet it does. He’s tells us in another WoB that “Stormlight makes plants grow” (written into a fan’s book). And his answer here comes in response to a question about the relationship between Roshar’s moons and Highstorms.

 

Here’s another relevant WoB:

 

Q: “If [a Windrunner had] enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could [he] go?”

A:  “He could theoretically break orbit if he has Stormlight for air, and he could manipulate gravity. They have actually figured how long it would take to make it to the various moons.”

 

I don’t believe the Sanderson Crew did that calculation just for fun. It has to be relevant to the story line. Peter has said that the moons come very close to Roshar during the night: “Roshar's moons are much much closer than our moon. Their elliptical orbits bring them closer to Roshar's surface during the night…” (For an excellent discussion of the astronomy of the Rosharian moons, check out this thread.) It should take Kaladin about two hours to reach the moon that is the Origin (though it is still unclear which one it is).

 

The Larkin Stores the Stormlight

 

Kaladin will take Rysn’s Larkin with him to the moon, where it will store enormous amounts of Stormlight to bring back. Will this increase the Larkin’s size, perhaps turning it into some kind of Greatshell? Will it be able to fly back itself? Will Rysn give it a name…? (Personally, I like Lex Larkin.)

 

Kaladin may suffer significant damage from his potential over-exposure to the Origin’s Stormlight, perhaps crystallizing him like one of Dalinar’s soulcasters. Syl warned him of Stormlight over-exposure in WoR. I suspect that the Larkin will protect Kaladin by absorbing the excess Stormlight from him.

 

The Duel of Champions

 

With the new Stormlight reserves, the Siege of Urithiru will hold out long enough to persuade Odium to agree to a battle of champions: “Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion…” (WoR, p. 76.)  Kaladin will go up against something representing Odium, and Kaladin will defeat it. (It wouldn’t be much of a story otherwise…) The good guys win, and hatred is again put back in the bottle

 

Some intriguing questions and observations:

 

• As a Son of Honor (a real one, not like Gavilar and Amaram), Kaladin will not cheat during the duel. But his opponent will, perhaps with help from other Voidbringers.

 

• Will Kaladin be restricted only to the Windrunner Surges? Will his trip to the Origin change him in any way, allowing him access to other powers or Surges?

 

• Can he be given the non-Jezrien Honorblades for other Surges, even if he only uses Syl as his shard-weapon? Will he have enough Stormlight to use them all?

 

The End. Thanks for reading!

Edited May 9, 2014 by Confused

[kaladin_stormblessed_]

If this does come true and stormlight becomes scarce

then Zahel (Vasher) will have some issues surviving without it as he still needs some investiture every week to survive (unless he has a store of breaths still)

Otherwise this is great! Upvote!

[potato]

Are you implying that high storms are tidal? That could explain their irregular predictability.

Also up vote.

[MistLord]

Incredibly thorough, even if there's a lot of speculation (though it is admittedly well grounded). I applaud you, sir. Even if many of this is wrong, the amount of thought and effort you've put in is extraordinary. 

[Confused]

Thank you all for the kind comments! Responses:

 

PercyJackson: Regardless of whether I'm right or not about Zahel's role in the storyline, he will need something to stay alive. I believe that the shortage of Stormlight in Urithiru at the end of WoR is foreshadowing. Of the many predictions I make, I'm reasonably confident that the Everstorm will interfere with Roshar's (or at least Urithiru's) Stormlight reserves.

 

potato: I don't think HIghstorms are tidal. Peter was pretty explicit in that "Moons of Roshar" thread I linked to that Roshar's moons lack much mass and, though close to Roshar, have little gravitational pull. I'm just positing that the Highstorms' Stormlight comes from one of the moons.

[signspace13]

WOW, this theory is fantastic, have an upvote!

 

I think that you are probably very close to right, even with the knight radiant predictions, I mean Axies will probably bond that Massive spren that he sees, and since we think it is God spren that make a Bondsmith, then this is probably likely, I think it would be great for Vasher to become a surgebinder, I mean anything to make him even more of a grumpy immortal Badass is alright with me.

 

the only thing that seems off with this is the fact that you posted it, if Brandon turns up and reads it and goes "damnation he got me guess I have to change everything now" all with a funny grin then posting this changes everything. 

 

But i really do like this theory, it seems like you have gone around to just about every other thread and plopped all of the legitimate ideas in one massive theory, good on you this looks like it would have taken forever to type.

 

Edit: Now that I think of it i think it wise to avoid your theories, because they might just be full of spoilers, nah jokes.

Edited May 10, 2014 by signspace13

[Musica]

Wow, great theory! I also saw the shortage of Stormlight in Urithiru as foreshadowing, though I thought it was built so high up on purpose- to be out of reach for the Everstorm? Which will also make it out of range for Highstorms.. Though the fact that the Everstorm is 'something new' might contradict it..(then again, it being 'old in design' could grant some credibility;) haha)

Can I just say, though, that I totally called the fact that Kal will be out in a Highstorm again at some point in WoR and the Storm will be a never-ending, direct Stormlight source? (I mean, we knew that the Hightstorms were renewing Light, but there were theories that it was only a part of the storm, only a 'wave' that comes after the storm-front, while I believed you could simply stand in the Storm, maybe without even a need for Spheres, and take in as much Light as you wanted, for as long as the Storm remains).

So yeah. Called it. LOL

Another sort-of support for the popular theory of Kaladin being Honor's champion- the phase 'Honor is dead' is a recurring one, in one form or another, in both WoK and WoR, with Honor being at times a concept or the God (always liked the duality of it). Kaladin's saying to Dalinar "Honor is dead, but I will see what I can do" during Adolin's duel was also a strong foreshadowing as to both his future rule as Honor's champion who will defeat Odium, and to his 'end'- maybe taking Honor's/a Herald's place to forever watch over Roshar.

I'm a reluctant believer of the Fleet-like end theory- that Kaladin will internalize fully and completely the First Ideal at some point toward the end, and will sacrifice his life/body in the Physical Realm, then manage to 'come back'/strike Odium from the Cognitive Realm(?) while now being restricted to the Cognitive/taking up the reformed Honor Shard/becoming a Herald-like exsistence.

[maxal]

I think it is very unlikely we will get to see another Bondsmith, let alone two as their order was comprised of three members at most. Dalinar is most likely the only Bondsmith we will see unless he dies at some point. And I certainly do not see Zahel as one.... In fact, it would quite bad to have Zahel as a KR since he already have all this Breath.

 

I am also quite convinced Ym is dead. One of the purpose of his interlude probably was to show us KR can die. So far, we have seen them survive quite impossible odds, but yes they can be killed.

 

Edit: The only argument I have against Rysn becoming a KR is the fact she does not exhibit the internal conflict we have seen in the others. Kal struggles with leadership, Shallan struggles with honesty, Dalinar struggles with guiding and Renarin certainly struggles with giving. Rysn does not struggle with obedience. Now my personal prospect for Dustbringer does struggle a lot with obedience, therefore a better match as far as I am concerned.

Edited May 10, 2014 by maxal

[maxal]

Also, I would be as bold as to say the second attribute is not what we should looking for when trying to determine who the next KR will be.

 

All the KR we have seen so far, do not exhibit their second attribute. For all of them, it is something they have to work on, unlike the first attribute which is mainly part of their personality.

 

Kaladin: Lives by his primary attribute by having this constant desire to protect people no matter what. However, he does not want to be a leader, he runs away from it (slightly). Bottom line is, he has to work on that, he has to learn that protecting people is not enough, he has to lead them as well. What good is a protector if he cannot lead?

 

Dalinar: In pious beyond any measures, he lives a spartiate life. However, he has trouble enforcing his visions into people, he has much issues guiding them towards his goal. During both books he struggles with just that and I believe his struggle is not over just yet. What good is a pious person if he cannot guide the others?

 

Shallan: Is creative. She always were even as a child. It is built within her. Honesty however is not her greatest strength and throughout WoR she struggles with her truths. She has much to learn to become a honest person. What good is a creative person able to built the perfect lies if she is not honest?

 

Renarin: Gets wisdom through his visions of the future making him "learned". However, he has to share them, he has to tell people about them, he has to be giving with his knowledge, which he wasn't. Ever. He needs to work on that. What good is someone who learns things by seeing the future if he is not giving?

 

The same could be said about the other orders. What good is a fool hardy reckless Dustbringer if he can't follow order? I would therefore look for someone who is brave, but has to work on obedience. Same with all the remaining. Willshapers... Eshonai is resolute, but she has to learn how to built.

 

Bottom line is I do not think the second attribute is what makes someone a proto-radiant. It is what they all have to work on. The first attribute determines who gets a chance to be chosen.

[Confused]

Maxal, why do you think Dalinar will be the only Bondsmith? Do you have any textual evidence to support this belief?

 

As stated in my OP, the only two potential KRs I am reasonably confident about are Eshonai and Szeth. The other choices are more speculative. I do believe that Axies and Rysn have important roles to fill whether or not they become KR.

 

I am gratified, though, that you paraphrased my own post back at me to justify your view: "The Meaning of Primary and Secondary Attributes?"

[maxal]

Maxal, why do you think Dalinar will be the only Bondsmith? Do you have any textual evidence to support this belief?

 

 

Well, in the textual description of the Bondsmith, it is mentioned their order never had many members, three at most. Therefore, I think it is unlikely we will get two extra members for an order said to never have more than three members at the top of its glory... I am afraid this is my only argument.

 

Sorry if I repeated your other post. Seems like we agree then.

[Confused]

No apologies necessary, Maxal. I was genuinely flattered!

 

And I do agree that in Rysn's case, she is already "obedient" in a conventional sense. But my point in that post (as to Dustbringers) was that the Nahel bond tempers what may be a foolhardy bravery. In jumping from such a height, Rysn acted in a foolhardy way. "Obedience" is not blind adherence to instruction (otherwise, you have a Szeth). Rather, in the context of a Dustbringer, obedience is the recognition that sometimes one should exercise restraint to avoid foolish displays of bravery, the kind that shatters your legs. Her babsk would not have required that of her.

 

And none of this is to say that Rysn will become a Dustbringer. It does seem a strange KR order for Rysn, even if she ends up riding into battle mounted on a Ryshadium!

 

Regarding Bondsmiths, I agree with you that if the "one KR per order" theory obtains, three Bondsmiths seems too many. But I don't adhere to that theory. I think we'll see many more KR, even if they're not the leading characters of the book. But it's all speculation at this point...

[signspace13]

Edit: The only argument I have against Rysn becoming a KR is the fact she does not exhibit the internal conflict we have seen in the others. Kal struggles with leadership, Shallan struggles with honesty, Dalinar struggles with guiding and Renarin certainly struggles with giving. Rysn does not struggle with obedience. Now my personal prospect for Dustbringer does struggle a lot with obedience, therefore a better match as far as I am concerned.

 

Internal conflict could start now, I mean she practically lost her legs because she was so obedient, and i think we have seen some in the past, wasn't she annoyed that she had to take care of a patch of Shin grass?

 

I think we have two equally likely possibilities for this order, we just happen to know a hell of a lot more about one of them.

 

and I think her becoming a radiant is the only real way for her to continue to have significance because unless stormlight heals those shattered legs of hers then she won't be walking anytime soon.

[maxal]

No apologies necessary, Maxal. I was genuinely flattered!

 

And I do agree that in Rysn's case, she is already "obedient" in a conventional sense. But my point in that post (as to Dustbringers) was that the Nahel bond tempers what may be a foolhardy bravery. In jumping from such a height, Rysn acted in a foolhardy way. "Obedience" is not blind adherence to instruction (otherwise, you have a Szeth). Rather, in the context of a Dustbringer, obedience is the recognition that sometimes one should exercise restraint to avoid foolish displays of bravery, the kind that shatters your legs. Her babsk would not have required that of her.

 

And none of this is to say that Rysn will become a Dustbringer. It does seem a strange KR order for Rysn, even if she ends up riding into battle mounted on a Ryshadium!

 

Regarding Bondsmiths, I agree with you that if the "one KR per order" theory obtains, three Bondsmiths seems too many. But I don't adhere to that theory. I think we'll see many more KR, even if they're not the leading characters of the book. But it's all speculation at this point...

 

I agree with you. Rysn jump was foolhardy and was triggered by her desire to obey her babsk, but does it necessarily measn she would fit into the Dustbringer order? I agree it is a strange mix as she does not have the other attributes we would expect out of a member of that order which was definitely combat oriented.

 

Internal conflict could start now, I mean she practically lost her legs because she was so obedient, and i think we have seen some in the past, wasn't she annoyed that she had to take care of a patch of Shin grass?

 

I think we have two equally likely possibilities for this order, we just happen to know a hell of a lot more about one of them.

 

and I think her becoming a radiant is the only real way for her to continue to have significance because unless stormlight heals those shattered legs of hers then she won't be walking anytime soon.

 

 

However, I do not agree becoming KR is the only way for Rysn story to become relevant. She was granted a larksin (spelling?). These could be the key to something without being related to KR. We don't know just yet. There is something about the monster of the Reshi isles. It could her purpose to the story lies there.

 

I personally believe we very well may see only one KR per order until book 6. After that, I believe the orders will start to expend. I just tend to think it would be redundant, at this point of the story, to get another Truthwatcher (for example) (I believe Ym is really dead) while we still have no Willshaper, no Dustbringer and no Stoneward (Taln does not count, he is a Herald).  And even after that, I believe it is doubtful we would get more than one Bondsmith at a time. It could be Dalinar will die which would leave room for another Bondsmith, but I do not see us getting 2 or 3 Bondsmith at the same, an order known to never have more than 3 members, while we still have no members out of more numerous orders.

 

Or I could be totally wrong. All this is just gut feeling, really.

Edited May 11, 2014 by maxal

[kaellok]

@Maxal: Since several of your last posts have mentioned this, even if it's a small thing, the books never say that there are three Bondsmiths at a time maximum.  The epigraph states that three is not an uncommon number for them, that they were always small in number, and that attempting to increase their number to the size of the other orders is (seditious? sorry, don't have the book in front of me anymore, and I forget the exact word used.) 

 

So, while I agree it is highly unlikely for there to be another Bondsmith in the First 5, in part because of other reasons you've stated, I just couldn't let this little bit go any more (even though it's relatively minor, and doesn't actually change anything.)

 

As for the defeat of Odium, people all over the forums seem to assume that Honor will have a Champion to face Odium's Champion.  I can't understand where they got this idea.  Honor is dead.  He will not be appointing any Champion.  Cultivation, on the other hand, still seems to be alive and kicking.  If a Champion is appointed by Odium (not a sure thing), and if a Champion is appointed to oppose them (also not a sure thing), then we should be looking at those with spren associated with Cultivation instead.  Kaladin, and his rather close ties and references to honor, almost certainly count him out.

[Stormcrown]

Kaellok, what if Honor's spren can appoint a champion? He seemed to have a small amount of abilities still.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Well the idea of a champion comes from Honor's messages to Dalinar but the only thing he talks about is trying to force Odium to appoint a champion. He doesn't even imply that an opposing one needs to be appointed. For all we know, choosing a champion is just something someone on one side of the oathpact can do regardless of whether the other chooses one so there is no reason to assume the good side will even have a champion.

But if we assume both sides will choose one, there is nothing that indicates a champion has to represent a specific shard or be appointed by one. I interpret it as just being a stipulation in the oathpact. If one side chooses to, they can appoint a champion for some kind of advantage. The other side can also appoint one but it doesn't necessarily have to be a shard that appoints them, just likely someone of authority on that side might it be a shard, herald, or the head of the KR. Just because Honor is gone doesn't automatically mean Cultivation is the only one that can choose someone now.

So, I feel like Kaladin has just as much chance of being the champion as Shallan, Dalinar, or even Lift.

Edit: I just reread the passage and the wording of the statement is a little difficult to tell if Honor is saying if he vexes Odium enough he might take the chance and choose a champion or if he was saying that, if Dalinar chooses a champion, Odium might take that challenge and choose one himself. Either way, my argument still stands that there is no reason to think only a Shard can choose the champion.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[signspace13]

I read somewhere on the forum about the champions and someone had an idea that I thought was fantastic, Amaram as Odium's champion. If we see Kaladin as a champion appointed by the KR which seems likely, I mean who says you need to be a shard to have a champion. This would result in the final battle being an epic duel between voidbinding Amaram and surgebinding Kaladin, and I can't think of anything more satisfying than those two duking it out for for the sake of the world.

 

Edit because: i -> I

Edited May 12, 2014 by signspace13

[kaellok]

Mistborn spoilers!

 

The assumption of Shard-based Champions is based on the end of HoA, when Elend becomes Vin's Champion and Marsh is Ruin's. 

 

There is a WoB that the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor, not Odium.  However, even though the appointing of Champions or what happens because of it is not regulated by the Oathpact, that doesn't mean that there may not be something else going on there that we are unaware of, though.  That sentence was awkward.  Let me try again.  Even if Champions have nothing to do with the Oathpact, there may be something of a similar nature but on a greater Realmatic scale in play.

 

Also, I had not, at all, thought of the Stormfather being able to appoint a Champion.  That seems somewhat likely, even though his Champion would likely be vastly underpowered compared to Odium's (the Stormfather being a Splinter or Sliver of Honor, rather than the full thing).  That could make for a very interesting climax, though.

[maxal]

@Maxal: Since several of your last posts have mentioned this, even if it's a small thing, the books never say that there are three Bondsmiths at a time maximum.  The epigraph states that three is not an uncommon number for them, that they were always small in number, and that attempting to increase their number to the size of the other orders is (seditious? sorry, don't have the book in front of me anymore, and I forget the exact word used.) 

 

Hmmm I do not have my book... I always interpreted the epigraph as if the Bondsmith's order never held more than 3 members... Maybe I misread... I have to go look again.

[signspace13]

Hmmm I do not have my book... I always interpreted the epigraph as if the Bondsmith's order never held more than 3 members... Maybe I misread... I have to go look again.

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

—From Words of Radiance , chapter 16, page 14

 

this is the epigraph, it does state that the number of 3 was not uncommon, but it also says that their spren was very specific, I still think that all Bondsmiths bond 'Godlikespren' such as the Stormfather (i think the Nightwatcher would also fall into this category, but I can't imagine her making a bond, and also the large spren mentioned by confuse that Axies sees) so yes I find it plausible we will have more Bondsmiths to come.

[Stormcrown]

I think that if we stick with the 10 KR per order, and if Dalinar can unite all 10 KR, they can reforge the Oathpact.

 

I'm not sure why the heralds vanished between desolations, and that might block my above theory, but I find the "Only one per order" very interesting.

 

The previous oathpact they were given blades in exchange for leading mankind, but the blades are not really necessary now.

 

Perhaps a new oathpact will be made? I mean, Dalinar is a Bondsmith, who's shardblade WAS named "Oathbringer". It would be a little bit of foreshadowing.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Stormcrown

[kaellok]

I think that if we stick with the 10 KR per order, and if Dalinar can unite all 10 KR, they can reforge the Oathpact.

 

I'm not sure why the heralds vanished between desolations, and that might block my above theory, but I find the "Only one per order" very interesting.

 

The previous oathpact they were given blades in exchange for leading mankind, but the blades are not really necessary now.

 

Perhaps a new oathpact will be made? I mean, Dalinar is a Bondsmith, who's shardblade WAS named "Oathbringer". It would be a little bit of foreshadowing.

I've given a whole lot of thought about how the Oathpact may come back, including 'anointing' new Heralds.  I never seem to be on this site anymore when I have the books with me, but there is an epigraph that talks of 10 standing against the storm (or something to that effect).  It would not greatly surprise me if this was either detailing events in the past, regarding the Heralds, or foretelling new Heralds in the future.

 

However, I'm not sure if I'm reading what you're saying correctly in your next thought.  The line you seem to be referring to is saying that only one Bondsmith was in continual residence at Urithiru at a time; it's not referring the other orders of KR.

 

I still think there is far more to the Honorblades than we have seen so far.  Szeth wielded one with skill, yes, but his understanding of everything was limited and not complete.  It could be that in the hands of someone with greater knowledge and experience, they are much, much more than a Shardblade.  It's also possible that the way they interact with, say, a Herald is different than the way they interact with someone else (in the same way that a Shardblade is vastly different than a Sprenblade in the hands of its Radiant).

[Stormcrown]

We have yet to find out if the Heralds had powers other than immortality+honorblades.

 

I mean, I don't really think it matters if there is only one Bondsmith is in Urithiru. My only point is that the one bondsmith we do know wielded a blade named Oathbringer. It seems a little clever.