How did Evi resist the Beyond? Part of Cultivation’s plan?

[Fanghur Rahl]

I’m just curious, do we know if there’s any way a person’s soul or ghost or cognitive shadow or whatever you want to call it can resist being pulled into the Beyond other than a Shard facilitating it? Like how Fuzz was able to keep Kelsier from passing into the Beyond because even he couldn’t resist for long.

Because at the end of Oathbringer once Dalinar opens Honor’s Perpendicularity, he hears what I can only assume was Evi’s ghost speaking to him and telling him she forgives him before presumably moving on (I don’t think Brandon intended it to merely be a hallucination), but how exactly was she able to linger all that time? The only thing I can think is that Cultivation kept her from passing on until the culmination of Dalinar’s boon/curse had occurred, though if that’s true then her future sight truly is nothing short of astounding.

[Calderis]

I don't think that she did remain. I think Dalinar connected to her Spiritual corpse. It was an echo interpreted by his own mind and his connection there. 

Primarily, I think this because if she were a Cognitive Shadow and actually present, she should have been seen.

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

His issue was actually the reason for a major change in Era 1 between planning, and what we actually saw in Secret History. 

Quote

Phantine

Did you pre-write the Kelsier stuff for Secret History, or did you just outline the events ahead of time?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier was notes, though detailed ones. They might mostly worked out. I believe there was one "thought" a character has in HERO that I had written to be influenced by Kelsier, but turned out to be logistically impossible. I worked on Secret History itself on and off for years before finishing it last fall.

Phantine

Was that thought the one Sazed has in his fight with Marsh?

Those weren't coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

The bag Marsh shot at you. Those weren't coins.

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, that's it.

Moving the well, playing with where Kelsier was, and the physics of moving through perpendicularities between Realms all kind of combined to make what I had planned originally there not work. I tried fudging things so Kelsier could be there, and felt it was dishonest to the rules. So I didn't let him stray far enough from the Well to talk to Sazed there. Peter had thought for years that was Kelsier, I recall, and was sad we couldn't connect them.

Herowannabe

I don't suppose you'd be willing to share with us who the new, canonical voice in Sazed's head is?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm afraid I probably won't ever go into this. At some point, you risk twisting and turning too much. I have a canon answer in my head, but for readers, it will probably need to remain ambiguous--with "it was simply him coming up with it on his own" being a valid option.

source

 

If there were a blond human woman wandering around in the Cognitive Realm, I'm sure between Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, and Venli, someone would have seen her. 

[+Extesian]

Yeah i think its comparable to the screams Szeth hears, echoes their the spiritual realm. 

Quote

Blightsong

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

Blightsong

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea, mhmm, yea.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

How are Shallan's Lightweavings related to the screams that Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In that they are slightly attached to the Spiritual Realm. 

source

 

[+Child of Hodor]

It has to do with spiritual realm not the cognitive. It’s possible he was hearing from Evi in the spiritual realm. Dalinar at least briefly ascended according to Odium.

Mistborm Series spoilers:

Spoiler

 There was a wrong theory here. It's gone now. 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[RShara]

25 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It has to do with spiritual realm not the cognitive. It’s possible he was hearing from Evi in the spiritual realm. Dalinar at least briefly ascended according to Odium.

Mistborm Series spoilers:

  Hide contents

 

And another Shard vessel, Sazed was able to communicate with Vin and Elend who were in the Beyond. 

“I tried to bring them back, but fixing the bodies does not return the souls ... However, be assured that I have spoken with our friends, and they are quite happy where they are. They deserve a rest, I think.” HoA epilogue

He can’t be referring to the type of meet and greet Leras did to Kelsier and others in MB:SH because we see Vin and Elend show up post-death in the cognitive realm and move on without talking to Sazed in MB:SH. Kelsier would have seen Sazed talk to them because he sees Leras show up and talk to others iwho die in the fountain square and to Rashek earlier in MB:SH.

Plus Sazed is saying he talked to them in their current location, which is not the cognitive or physical realm.

Sazed must have communicated with them in the spiritual realm and if he can do it another vessel, or whatever Dalinar is, could do it.

 

 

That was before Brandon really brought the Cosmere together. He's decided that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond, and the Beyond is something that the Shards can't touch or see into. See what Cal and Ext said.

Have you read Secret History?

 

Quote

Ward

When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak, in-canon, *inaudible*, hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious.

Ward

So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not...

source

Quote

Questioner

Will Kelsier reunite with the crew in the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't talk about the Beyond. I would like to think that he would. But I don't talk about what happens there, even Sazed doesn't know what happens there. So, if you want to imagine it, then yes, but he would have to get there first.

source

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=the+beyond

Edited October 19, 2018 by RShara

[Fanghur Rahl]

7 hours ago, Extesian said:

Yeah i think its comparable to the screams Szeth hears, echoes their the spiritual realm. 

Huh, that’s interesting. I had always assumed that Szeth’s hearing the screams of those he killed was just his own conscience and inner guilt over what he’d done misinterpreted through the lens of his religion/cultural beliefs. I didn’t think it was anything mystical. 

It begs the question then: was it actually Evi that Dalinar heard, or was it just a poetic way for Brandon to effectively portray Dalinar forgiving himself?

[+Child of Hodor]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

That was before Brandon really brought the Cosmere together. He's decided that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond, and the Beyond is something that the Shards can't touch or see into. See what Cal and Ext said.

Have you read Secret History?

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=the+beyond

Yeah basically 40% of the Cosmere novels aren’t canon for Cosmere mechanical purposes  

I mentioned Secret History in my post, but I missed that he briefly talked to them when I skimmed the ending before I posted. It's a retcon and that's ok. 

Shards can’t go to either the beyond or the spiritual realm. Most of their power is in spiritual realm but the vessels can’t directly access it. 

I guess spiritual corpse is the more likely answer. Not satisfying “Evi’s” forgiveness is the equivalent of a mortician hearing air go past the vocal cords of a cadaver. The real person, the intent, the will, the ability to process new information is gone. Feels much less meaningful. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Leyrann]

16 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I mentioned Secret History several times in my post. 

Then you should know Sazed didn't talk to Vin and Elend when they were already in the Beyond, but rather when they were in the Cognitive Realm, as shown in Secret History.

[+Child of Hodor]

41 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Then you should know Sazed didn't talk to Vin and Elend when they were already in the Beyond, but rather when they were in the Cognitive Realm, as shown in Secret History.

OH SNAP! IM BURNT! I just thought " they are quite happy where they are" meant it couldn't be the Cognitive realm.  It's a retcon and I missed it. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[RShara]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah basically 40% of the Cosmere novels aren’t canon for Cosmere mechanical purposes  

I mentioned Secret History in my post, but I missed that he briefly talked to them when I skimmed the ending before I posted. It's a retcon and that's ok. 

Shards can’t go to either the beyond or the spiritual realm. Most of their power is in spiritual realm but the vessels can’t directly access it. 

I guess spiritual corpse is the more likely answer. Not satisfying “Evi’s” forgiveness is the equivalent of a mortician hearing air go past the vocal cords of a cadaver. The real person, the intent, the will, the ability to process new information is gone. Feels much less meaningful. 

Shards can access the Spiritual Realm. That's where they can see the future, travel, etc. They can't touch the Beyond.

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Shards can access the Spiritual Realm. That's where they can see the future, travel, etc. They can't touch the Beyond.

Can they not access it at all, or can they just not bring anyone back from it? Because Preservation at least seemed to know what it was even though he refused to tell Kelsier, which implies that they at least see into it if nothing else.

[Quantus]

6 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Can they not access it at all, or can they just not bring anyone back from it? Because Preservation at least seemed to know what it was even though he refused to tell Kelsier, which implies that they at least see into it if nothing else.

Per these, he cannot, though there is an old one that indicates he might someday learn how:

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Will Kelsier reunite with the crew in the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't talk about the Beyond. I would like to think that he would. But I don't talk about what happens there, even Sazed doesn't know what happens there. So, if you want to imagine it, then yes, but he would have to get there first.

source

 

 

 

Quote

 

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Can Sazed communicate with Leras or Ati?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, he cannot. source

 

 

 

Quote

 

Melhay

Also, We just took for granted that Sazed is with Tindwyl now. Is that so?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. What Sazed is right now is something of a god in the classic Greek sense—a superpowered human being, elevated to a new stage of existence. Not GOD of all time and space. In a like manner, there are things that Sazed does not have power over. For instance, he couldn't bring Vin and Elend back.

Where Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in Mistborn 3 at the right moments.

source

 

 

 

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

It begs the question then: was it actually Evi that Dalinar heard, or was it just a poetic way for Brandon to effectively portray Dalinar forgiving himself?

That's exactly what I meant in my first post. 

I think the screams, generally, are the person connection to the Spiritual remains of those they killed, filtered through their own Cognitive aspects. So it is their own guilt made manifest. 

It was Evi's voice heard because of that connection, but I think it was his own forgiveness. I don't think it's coincidence that he was forgiven at the same time he found the words to his third oath. 

[Subvisual Haze]

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah basically 40% of the Cosmere novels aren’t canon for Cosmere mechanical purposes  

I mentioned Secret History in my post, but I missed that he briefly talked to them when I skimmed the ending before I posted. It's a retcon and that's ok. 

Shards can’t go to either the beyond or the spiritual realm. Most of their power is in spiritual realm but the vessels can’t directly access it. 

I guess spiritual corpse is the more likely answer. Not satisfying “Evi’s” forgiveness is the equivalent of a mortician hearing air go past the vocal cords of a cadaver. The real person, the intent, the will, the ability to process new information is gone. Feels much less meaningful. 

Well, I think it's more like the breath of life is what allows a "soul" to function and change/interact with the world.  All the mechanical nuts and bolts of the soul remain in the spiritual realm even after the person passes along, however they're basically frozen in a brief moment of time.  Specifically those last moments before their death.  I think this explains the screams of the murdered victims that Szeth+Dalinar hear, as well as the screams of the dead shardblades, both are "stuck" in the last tragic moments of their life.

This makes Evi's final message still profound but in a different way.  The implication is that Evi had always forgiven Dalinar, even at the moment of her painful death she still forgave him.  The important thing isn't so much the existence of Evi's forgiveness, instead it's Dalinar actually being able to hear that forgiveness voiced.  I think Dalinar's temporary "ascension" into the spiritual plane allowed him to interact with Evi's ghost beyond merely the surface screaming.

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah basically 40% of the Cosmere novels aren’t canon for Cosmere mechanical purposes  

I very much disagree. 

[Gasper]

12 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Well, I think it's more like the breath of life is what allows a "soul" to function and change/interact with the world.  All the mechanical nuts and bolts of the soul remain in the spiritual realm even after the person passes along, however they're basically frozen in a brief moment of time.  Specifically those last moments before their death.  I think this explains the screams of the murdered victims that Szeth+Dalinar hear, as well as the screams of the dead shardblades, both are "stuck" in the last tragic moments of their life.

This makes Evi's final message still profound but in a different way.  The implication is that Evi had always forgiven Dalinar, even at the moment of her painful death she still forgave him.  The important thing isn't so much the existence of Evi's forgiveness, instead it's Dalinar actually being able to hear that forgiveness voiced.  I think Dalinar's temporary "ascension" into the spiritual plane allowed him to interact with Evi's ghost beyond merely the surface screaming.

Given what we know of people leaving cognitive shadows, imprints on the spiritual realm, or coming back as shades, I think that this explanation is very likely. Evi was not any more invested (that we know of) than a normal Rosharian, but she might have left Dalinar a "recording" that he could access using Honor's connections in the Spiritual realm. I think this is also how Shards like Ruin and Harmony and creatures like Bleeder can speak through Hemalurgy.

[Fanghur Rahl]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's exactly what I meant in my first post. 

I think the screams, generally, are the person connection to the Spiritual remains of those they killed, filtered through their own Cognitive aspects. So it is their own guilt made manifest. 

It was Evi's voice heard because of that connection, but I think it was his own forgiveness. I don't think it's coincidence that he was forgiven at the same time he found the words to his third oath. 

But my point is, can we at least be certain that ‘Evi’s’ words “I forgive you” were true? Before she died, did she utter those words or have that thought and then later Dalinar ‘accessed’ them? Or for all we know could Evi have actually died hating him and wishing she never met him?

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I very much disagree. 

Eh, he retroactively addressed it well enough and I don't mean it as a slight. He's human and his ideas evolved as he wrote more.  He wrote Elantris before he had the Cosmere  firmly established and then he wrote the three Mistborn novels all at once but even with MB era 1 he's had to go back and change things because the events of the books did not fit with the mechanical rules he later established.  

Quote

 

#4

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I started with the metals. And then expanded out to that, yeah. So what you've gotta remember is, like, I write Elantris without knowledge of the cosmere. I knew I was gonna do something, but I didn't know what I was gonna do. And then I wrote Dragonsteel, and in Dragonsteel I had all sorts of theories and plans, but I never canonized any of that. And when I sat down to write Mistborn, I said, "All right. We're building the cosmere for real now." And before then I had just kind of been winging it. So when I did Aether of Night, which I put Shards in, I was like "Okay, there'll be some of these things, and what-not." Mistborn was, like, the first real cosmere book, if that makes any sense.

The Elantris shard pool that helps people kill themselves. 

Quote

I’m honestly not sure what the pool is or how exactly it fits into the theory of this magic system. It was added as a plotting devise, as mentioned earlier, and therefore was never tied directly to the cosmology or theoretics of the world - Elantris Annotations https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-elantris-61-1/

Kelsier being able to talk to Sazed in the fight with Marsh

Quote

General Reddit 2016 (Jan. 1, 2016)
#3Aug. 22, 2016

Phantine

Did you pre-write the Kelsier stuff for Secret History, or did you just outline the events ahead of time?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier was notes, though detailed ones. They might mostly worked out. I believe there was one "thought" a character has in HERO that I had written to be influenced by Kelsier, but turned out to be logistically impossible. I worked on Secret History itself on and off for years before finishing it last fall.

Phantine

Was that thought the one Sazed has in his fight with Marsh?

Those weren't coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

The bag Marsh shot at you. Those weren't coins.

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, that's it.

Moving the well, playing with where Kelsier was, and the physics of moving through perpendicularities between Realms all kind of combined to make what I had planned originally there not work. I tried fudging things so Kelsier could be there, and felt it was dishonest to the rules. So I didn't let him stray far enough from the Well to talk to Sazed there. Peter had thought for years that was Kelsier, I recall, and was sad we couldn't connect them.

 

 

Sazed talking to Vin and Elend and knowing they are "happy where they are now" when he has no way of knowing that because they are in the beyond where he can't see, so Sazed is straight up lying to Spook.

Feruchemy being separate powers. 

 

Quote

#60

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did Harmony change the laws of Feruchemy and Allomancy just so that people wouldn't want to do Hemalurgy by making it possible to get those powers otherwise, or was that already...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, that wasn't the purpose. It was already built in.

I made the call. I didn't built that Sazed did it, but it's a little bit of a retcon, breaking Feruchemy into its separate powers. I felt that would just be a more interesting narrative.

So, the behind-the-scenes answer is, I just broke those apart. My rationale for myself in-world was that now that the bloodlines were spreading out more, this was a natural effect of the bloodlines mixing.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Makes sense. Just Sazed didn't want people looking at Hemalurgy so I figured maybe he retconned it a little bit just so [you?] wouldn't.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That isn't the answer I came up with. But it sounds rational. I want to be careful not to have too much Sazed retconning going on. But at the same time, it is kind of a retcon, so maybe I should have.

 

Whether Marsh is alive or dead

Quote

 

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)
#3 

Kirrin

Marsh? The book doesn't mention him after he fights with Elend.

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to [Peter]. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.

Hoid's activities during Well of Ascension

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Hey, all. Brandon here. With the release of this book, there have been some minor updates to continuity that I think some of you will find relevant.The big one has to do with Hoid's visit to Terris in The Well of Ascension. For those unfamiliar with the backstory, this little behind-the-scenes action has been a source of some consistent problems. The outline, and original draft, of Well had Vin and Elend traveling up to Terris, then into the mountains, to find the Well itself.

This was a huge momentum killer in the story. Having your cityscape-focused book suddenly turn into a traveling quest fantasy for a few chapters felt very out of place, and required too much strange time-jumping to make it work. In revisions, I set about finding a way to repair this, and to overlap the Well of Ascension discovery with Vin's return to Luthadel.

The end result worked much better, but I was forced to cut Hoid's cameo. (In the form of footsteps in the snow and frost leading to the Well, hinting that someone had been there just before her.) I knew where Hoid was, and added in the cameo of him with the Terris people—with the plan still being that he visited the Well sometime during the days after Vin's return to the city.

Well, in working on Secret History, I found that this had a problem with it. Hoid had to already know where the Well is, because after the destruction of the Pits, he'd need to use the Well to return to Scadrial after leaving in the middle of book one to attend to certain other events.If you've read the story, you know this is how I proceeded. Official continuity is that Hoid went up to Terris after visiting the Well, as he had things to do there. He did not go looking for the Well. This doesn't change continuity for any of the books, though it does render one of the annotations for Well obsolete.

Otherwise, I'm quite pleased about this novella. I wasn't certain how it would go, writing something using threads I'd left dangling ten years ago. (You should thank the beta readers, who are all Sharders I believe, for their continuity help. They made me aware pf several things I needed to make much more clear from the original draft, so that canon would be more crisp.)

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding which times when someone appears to hear Kelsier's voice were actually Kelsier. The story offers the official canon for this as well.

It's nice to finally be able to give the answers to some longtime fan questions, such as what spooked Vin during her inspection of Hoid and what was up with Preservation and the Mist Spirit. It's entirely possible that, despite our efforts, we slipped up and made some continuity error here or there. If so, I'm terribly sorry! This one has been particularly challenging to do.

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

But my point is, can we at least be certain that ‘Evi’s’ words “I forgive you” were true? Before she died, did she utter those words or have that thought and then later Dalinar ‘accessed’ them? Or for all we know could Evi have actually died hating him and wishing she never met him?

I don't think she died hating him, but I don't actually think that matters. I think it's his own mind interpreting what could have been. 

@Child of Hodor I'm well aware of all of those WoBs, and despite retcons, I still think it all works. If things hadn't been left vague enough in those places to allow a recon in the first place, then I'd agree. They were only retconned in ways that do not change the written text. There's only been two instances of the text changing that I'm aware of, and neither had any bearing on realmatics. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

I don’t think she did either. But I do personally prefer to believe that at the very least it genuinely was her words that Dalinar heard; a ‘spiritual imprint’ so to speak, that Dalinar heard because he had also begun to forgive himself as well. But I suppose this is a other one of those things that has no canonically ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’ interpretation.

[RShara]

4 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Can they not access it at all, or can they just not bring anyone back from it? Because Preservation at least seemed to know what it was even though he refused to tell Kelsier, which implies that they at least see into it if nothing else.

They can't touch it at all. Brandon has said that he wants it to be left up to the readers to decide if the Beyond is even a real place, an afterlife, or if it's just nothingness.

 

10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah basically 40% of the Cosmere novels aren’t canon for Cosmere mechanical purposes  

Yeah I disagree too. There are small bits of earlier stories that he had to retcon, but not nearly the entire thing.

[Blightsong]

I still think the voices might be Shadows, just ones with a Spiritual Connection strong enough to allow communication. Odium in particular has a thing for turning the dead of those slain into CS', and the voices have given several hints that they are associated with Odium. I have a recent theory, or couple of theories rather, related to all of this that I know Cal disagrees with but I think its a valid alternative theory.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Blightsong