Coinshot1122 Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 Spoiler At the end of Oathbringer, when Venli bonds Timbre, a Knights Radiant spren, the spren dwells on her gem heart. Once she reaches her third ideal, will she be able to summon Timbre as a shardblade? If so, what happens to the voidspren? What happens to her radiant powers when the spren leaves the gem heart to manifest as a blade? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 I suspect she'll get a blade like any other radiant, without issue. I think voidspren would remain imprisoned (and provide for her current Form) while Timbre would be as free to manifest in the Physical realm via the Nahel Bond like any other Radiant's spren. I dont think the fact that she bonded a Singer should make her less capable, or more bound, especially given that she managed to Imprison another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 I don't think a Singer can get a shardblade. The spren are a lot more bound when they bond a Singer vs a human. I thought that was why the spren "betrayed" the singers in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 Timbre is not "bound" to Venli in the same manner as a spren she bonds for a form. If anything, I think timbres ability to enter her gemheart would be liable to give her abilities that a human Radiant would lack, not less. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 Then why did spren choose humans? I believe there is a line WoR that says something along the line of "the singers were to close to cognitive realm and the spren choose humans because they could pull the spren into the physical realm more." I believe the line was in one of the listener's songs. ... (Obviously I paraphrase. Also I'm not tech smart enough to find the exact quote...sigh:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 Oathbringer is not in the spoiler period so you neither need the [OB] tag or the spoilers marked in your post, since this is Cosmere Discussion. I've removed the topic tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I strongly believe that Venli would be unable to summon a Blade in the state she is in. If in a future moment, Venli will change Form turning into a not Regal form, Timbre is no more required to keep in check the Voidspren in her and she could in theory be not restricted into her gemheart. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 10 hours ago, Yata said: I strongly believe that Venli would be unable to summon a Blade in the state she is in. If in a future moment, Venli will change Form turning into a not Regal form, Timbre is no more required to keep in check the Voidspren in her and she could in theory be not restricted into her gemheart. Im not sure I understand why you think she'd be limited? Is it because you believe Timbre is too busy proving her a Form like a normal Singer-bond, or because Timbre is too busy restraining the imprisoned Voidspren to manifest Physically? I dont buy the Former because I dont think Timbre is currently involved in the Form at all. The Latter I could see it going either way, with no real evidence to make me lean in either direction. It certainly is possibly that however Timbre is restraining the Voidspren is a process that requires her to remain partially spiritual and actively focused on the restraint. On the other hand, outside of the Godspren (that are clearly special cases) we havent seen a single instance where manifesting a blade interfered with surges or any other spren capabilities, so I'm hesitant to assume there will be one here. On 10/11/2018 at 0:53 PM, Steel Inqusitive said: Then why did spren choose humans? I believe there is a line WoR that says something along the line of "the singers were to close to cognitive realm and the spren choose humans because they could pull the spren into the physical realm more." I believe the line was in one of the listener's songs. ... (Obviously I paraphrase. Also I'm not tech smart enough to find the exact quote...sigh:-) You mean to become Radiants? They were mimcking the Heralds and the Honorblades, and so were imitating a process that had only been established for Humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 13 minutes ago, Quantus said: Im not sure I understand why you think she'd be limited? Is it because you believe Timbre is too busy proving her a Form like a normal Singer-bond, or because Timbre is too busy restraining the imprisoned Voidspren to manifest Physically? I dont buy the Former because I dont think Timbre is currently involved in the Form at all. The Latter I could see it going either way, with no real evidence to make me lean in either direction. It certainly is possibly that however Timbre is restraining the Voidspren is a process that requires her to remain partially spiritual and actively focused on the restraint. On the other hand, outside of the Godspren (that are clearly special cases) we havent seen a single instance where manifesting a blade interfered with surges or any other spren capabilities, so I'm hesitant to assume there will be one here. The latter, whatever Timbre is performing with the Voidspren requires her to stay in the gemheart and bully the Voidspren. She can't manifest herself as Blade and at the same time doing that. So for me Timbre manifesting as a Blade would mean for the Voidspren to gain measure of freedom and influence over Venli. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, Yata said: The latter, whatever Timbre is performing with the Voidspren requires her to stay in the gemheart and bully the Voidspren. She can't manifest herself as Blade and at the same time doing that. So for me Timbre manifesting as a Blade would mean for the Voidspren to gain measure of freedom and influence over Venli. Fair enough. I think Im in a wait&see mode on that. In general I think the only ones that have an issue manifesting a Blade are the Godspren, and that's only because they (or at least the Stormfather) already has a specific Physical Realm manifestation (The Highstorm Itself in the case of the Stormfather). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Yata said: The latter, whatever Timbre is performing with the Voidspren requires her to stay in the gemheart and bully the Voidspren. She can't manifest herself as Blade and at the same time doing that. So, I've heard this "Timbre is restricted to Venli's gemheart" thing a few, but don't know where it came from. I'm only part way through my reread of Oathbringer, so maybe it hasn't come up yet. After the Everstorm, when the other Listeners are transformed into the Fused, but Venli is not, Timbre appears on the ground beside them - not in Venli's gemheart (OB I-6). Also, it seems like most of the time Timbre is hiding in a pouch that Venli wears, not in Venli's gemheart (OB I-7). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Timbre is able to enter Venli's gemheart and further suppress the voidspren... But I still don't think it's necessary. In Venli's first interlude she says she can't even hear the old rhythms, and then with Timbre present, she attunes then multiple times throughout the book. I don't think that Timbre needs to be in the gemheart to give Venli freedom of thought, otherwise she shouldn't have had it for the majority of OB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 @Quantus here's The quote I was thinking about.... And now I'm confused.... Because your right that the spren were mimicking the honorblades. So were the spren considering joining odium and fused? If not, how did they "betray" The Listneners? The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. —From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza WoR ch39 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 50 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said: @Quantus here's The quote I was thinking about.... And now I'm confused.... Because your right that the spren were mimicking the honorblades. So were the spren considering joining odium and fused? If not, how did they "betray" The Listneners? The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. —From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza WoR ch39 Notice it says "they give us our forms" They speaking of all spren as one. The fact that humans were granted the Nahel bond would seem a betrayal, and you also have the apparent betrayal of greater spren like the Stormfather, who had always been present and even facilitates their form changes, but actually bonds with humans. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Steel Inqusitive said: @Quantus here's The quote I was thinking about.... And now I'm confused.... Because your right that the spren were mimicking the honorblades. So were the spren considering joining odium and fused? If not, how did they "betray" The Listneners? The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. —From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza Hey Steel Inquisitive, I bolded the part that i think is most important from the quote you pulled. Humans are an all you can eat buffet of experience/emotion, listeners are a small plate fancy restaraunt. They ditched the listeners for humans because the experience/emotions they got from humans accelerated their development. Look at the progression of pattern, same time, if he was bonded to a listener, he wouldn't be nearly so cognitively advanced. That's why I think they started bonding humans (this quote specifically). @Yata makes a really good point, Venli has her form of power precisely because she is bonded to a voidspren (which currently resides in her gemheart). If she doesn't divest herself of the voidspren, then Timbre seems relegated to dampening the effect of the voidspren duty, which would seem to preclude the summoning of a sprenblade. But the question then becomes, how does Radiant Venli progress? How does she go forward? Can she be a Scholar form Radiant? Worst case is that she is a dull form Radiant. This is interesting to speculate about, I'm sure Brandon has a plan (he is an outliner after all), but this is totally uncharted territory. Fun stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 Confusion solved! thanks @Calderis and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine for fixing that crisis for me I am truly curios to see how the nahel bond works with Venli.... I really hope there are some disadvantages for the listener radiants as well as some nifty side effects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 On 10/11/2018 at 0:43 PM, Calderis said: Timbre is not "bound" to Venli in the same manner as a spren she bonds for a form. If anything, I think timbres ability to enter her gemheart would be liable to give her abilities that a human Radiant would lack, not less. Why would she gain more? The nahelbond grants Surges, and a resonance, but I see no reason why venli's would be different than a humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, DocHoliday said: Why would she gain more? The nahelbond grants Surges, and a resonance, but I see no reason why venli's would be different than a humans. Because Timbre has a direct line into Venli's soul via gemheart. The same mechanism that allows the form change could plausibily allow interactions that humans just aren't built for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 Spren are afterall splinters of Honor since Odium was the one to kill Honor it is not likely spren will go to Odium's side. And by the time first radiant come to be Singers have already aligned themselves with Odium instead of Honor. So, I think that is what led to spren betrayal as mentioned is songs. Also, Timber had bonded Venli who hates Odium so maybe... You get the idea right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 Spren are not splinters of Honor, the spren have been on roshar since Adonalsium existed. H and C have a great connection to most of them, but the only splinters of honor we have seen are the honorblades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 On 10/23/2018 at 10:53 PM, DocHoliday said: Why would she gain more? The nahelbond grants Surges, and a resonance, but I see no reason why venli's would be different than a humans. Basically the idea is that Timber could form a nahel and gemheart bond with Venli, giving her both radiants powers and a new form(maybe a new form of power.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, John203 said: Spren are not splinters of Honor, the spren have been on roshar since Adonalsium existed. H and C have a great connection to most of them, but the only splinters of honor we have seen are the honorblades. This is false. The spren on Roshar are definitely splinters. They are generally a mixture of both Honor and Cultivation. The Honorblades are also splinters of Honor, but they are not the only ones. Quote ... Little Wilson And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before-- Isaac Stewart Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it? Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. source Edited October 31, 2018 by Scion of the Mists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessedSurvivor Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 8:11 AM, Quantus said: In general I think the only ones that have an issue manifesting a Blade are the Godspren, and that's only because they (or at least the Stormfather) already has a specific Physical Realm manifestation (The Highstorm Itself in the case of the Stormfather). I just saw a WoB (can't find it right now) that said a spren could technically split itself, but it would be very difficult...this is probably why it hurts the Stormfather so much to become a Blade-he is splitting himself between the storm and the Blade! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 10 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said: I just saw a WoB (can't find it right now) that said a spren could technically split itself, but it would be very difficult...this is probably why it hurts the Stormfather so much to become a Blade-he is splitting himself between the storm and the Blade! If it's this one you are thinking of, it describes it as basically splitting the spren's soul in half Quote Questioner On the nature of shardblades, to an extent, can a live blade be split without harming it's source, so to speak? Brandon Sanderson Can a live blade split? What do you mean, split? Questioner Make itself into two weapons. Brandon Sanderson Oh, can a blade be forged into two weapons. A shardblade. Questioner Does it absolutely need a connection, or can it become two? Brandon Sanderson So, shardblades becoming two shardblades would require slicing in half a soul, which would not be very fun for the spren. Okay? Questioner So it's possible. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson So it's technically possible to take hydrogen and to turn it into plutonium with our current technology. It would cost more money than, like, the budget of NASA to do it for, y'know, one atom. So there are things that are possible, but-- Yes it is possible. This is not something that would be easy or very useful to do. source 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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