Kelsier vs. Dalinar

[Awesomeness Summoned]

As long as he doesn't shoot them too far to pull back, never.

[Mailliw73]

Let's say two pouches worth of coins for the battle plus his two glass daggers.

Edit: Ninja'd, but that's if he pulls them back. He just starts with that many

Edited May 1, 2014 by Mailliw73

[Lightsworn Panda]

 

 

Let's say two pouches worth of coins for the battle plus his two glass daggers.

So long as they aren't all pennies, that's enough coins to hire a squad of mercenaries or two Mistings...

[Edgedancer]

A couple of things. First, Kel can´t really afford to be in the same place for to long or he will get a Shardblade thrown in his stomach, (and with Shardplade throwing his blade shouldn´t be difficult) which means he can´t use coins to their full capability and the second thing is more of a question, because my knowledge of phisics is limited on this area, but how hard would it be for Dalinar to cut up the coins unless they are useless as projectiles? 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Let's say two pouches worth of coins for the battle plus his two glass daggers.

Edit: Ninja'd, but that's if he pulls them back. He just starts with that many

Having the coins in a large pouch does change the size of his projectile. Now instead of shooting a bunch of smaller missiles, he can use the pouch to fire an allomantic cannon at Dalinar. 

 

 

A couple of things. First, Kel can´t really afford to be in the same place for to long or he will get a Shardblade thrown in his stomach, (and with Shardplade throwing his blade shouldn´t be difficult) which means he can´t use coins to their full capability and the second thing is more of a question, because my knowledge of phisics is limited on this area, but how hard would it be for Dalinar to cut up the coins unless they are useless as projectiles? 

 

Why does his movement change the effectiveness of the coins? Aiming with coins is a mental task, not a physical one, so movement doesn't have as much effect on it, and Kelsier was skilled enough with pushing a pulling to manipulate a cloud or irregular objects in a vortex of death, while flying above it all. Dodging a giant sword that was thrown really shouldn't be an issue for him, and would actually give him the advantage until Dalinar summons it back. The only way I could see it not working in his favor is not realizing that the sword can be summoned, but I assume that he would see Dalinar call it into existence at the beginning of the battle, and wouldn't make that mistake. 

 

Also, cutting up the coins wouldn't have much effect. Kinetic energy equals 1/2mass times velocity squared. Coins are already small enough that their mass isn't adding much to the attack, but rather, it's the speed that's doing the damage. Cutting the coins would only give Kelsier more metal to work with, allowing him to create a more effective shotgun blast radius on the shardplate. 

[Pathfinder]

I haven't read the mistborn trilogy in awhile but I do not recall there ever being a time where a mistborn shoots a penny at a person, and it goes through them and chips a wall or gets lodged in a wall. Every instance that involves a wall results in the allomancer getting pushed in the opposite direction. The only instance (admittedly this is based on my recollection) where an allomancer pierces a wall, is in Wax's case, when he increasing his own weight AND firing a bullet he pushes on to increase its penetration. Neither of which Kel can do with only coins. He cannot alter his weight to add umph to his push, and the push is reliant on his own allomantic strength, not the addition of the gun's propulsion. So based on that, I think like others have said, he may very well only end up pushing himself AWAY from Dalinar than actually hurting the armor. Also in response to Dalinar not knowing how to defeat a mistborn, vs Kelsier knowing how to deal with the plate and blade. Kelsier doesn't know a shardblade cuts through ANYTHING. Hypothetically if Kelsier attempts to deflect the blade with a blade of his own (i know he uses daggers normally, just using this hypothetical as an example), then suddenly he finds the sword slide through whatever he used to deflect it, and continue through his body. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I haven't read the mistborn trilogy in awhile but I do not recall there ever being a time where a mistborn shoots a penny at a person, and it goes through them and chips a wall or gets lodged in a wall. Every instance that involves a wall results in the allomancer getting pushed in the opposite direction. The only instance (admittedly this is based on my recollection) where an allomancer pierces a wall, is in Wax's case, when he increasing his own weight AND firing a bullet he pushes on to increase its penetration. Neither of which Kel can do with only coins. He cannot alter his weight to add umph to his push, and the push is reliant on his own allomantic strength, not the addition of the gun's propulsion. So based on that, I think like others have said, he may very well only end up pushing himself AWAY from Dalinar than actually hurting the armor. Also in response to Dalinar not knowing how to defeat a mistborn, vs Kelsier knowing how to deal with the plate and blade. Kelsier doesn't know a shardblade cuts through ANYTHING. Hypothetically if Kelsier attempts to deflect the blade with a blade of his own (i know he uses daggers normally, just using this hypothetical as an example), then suddenly he finds the sword slide through whatever he used to deflect it, and continue through his body.

Lurchers are able to embed the coins into their shields. I also think it would be incredibly out of character for Kelsier to try and block a 6 foot sword with a glass dagger. He avoids direct combat when he can, and certainly would against a big ol' scary sword. He also could detect investiture from the plate and blade by burning bronze. He'd know further that something was off about them by not being able to push or pull on the plate or blade. Edited May 1, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Pathfinder]

Lurchers are able to embed the coins into their shields. I also think it would be incredibly out of character (and stupid) for Kelsier to try and block a 6 foot sword with a glass dagger. He also could detect investiture from the plate and blade by burning bronze. He'd know further that something was off about them by not being able to push or pull on the plate or blade.

 

It could be argued that is due to the combination of force from the push of the coinshot coupled with the force of the pull from the lurcher redirecting it.

 

Versus what happens when two coinshots push on the same coin?

Edited May 1, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It could be argued that is due to the combination of force from the push of the coinshot coupled with the force of the pull from the lurcher redirecting it.

Versus what happens when two coinshots push on the same coin?

If there's enough force to send people upwards of 175 lbs flying, I fail to see how that same force can't damage Shardplate. Hammer blows from a common soldier can damage Plate.

The coinshot is only pushed back if they continue to push. You can let go of the coin, and the energy will be pushed into the coin, and the plate.

Edited May 1, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Baine]

The argument isn't that one or two coins will crack Shardplate, It's that fifty or sixy of them will. Even a regular breastplate will crack

 

eventually, and without any opposing Coinshots, Kelsier can keep going for a long time.

[Moogle]

Here's an interesting idea, if it's taking place on the Shattered Plains:

 

Kelsier vaults over a chasm, and then Pulls coins behind Dalinar and pulls Dalinar into the chasm. Kelsier could stick a coin to Dalinar's side of the chasm for an anchor. I wonder if Dalinar would be strong enough to resist that? Mistborn can put out quite a lot of strength.

[jag519]

Yeah, I was also about to talk about Kel using the chasms to completely dominate. "Ok, I'm going to pelt you with coins while you jump across to get me." Now I steal push with a bunch of coins while pushing into the ground or a chasm behind me while they not only hit into you, but stop you from making your jump.

Kel either makes him fall to his death, messes with the shardplate from a continued push of 175 lbs in one direction and a shardplate enhanced jump from the other direction, or at the very least storms with the jump enough that he won't land well and Kel has the upperhand again, to at least retreat again if he doesnt straight up continue to pelt him when he is down.

And that is the simple way.

Another way of looking at it, we look at two fights. Kel could beat an inquisitor who is thought to be immortal, while shardbarers are thought to be kill-able. Also, I'd assume there would also be loads of metal around because unless they met for like pistols at dawn, it would be a battlefield type of thing, so he'd use swords and armor just like he used cages and the like in that fight. Being pelted with lots of swords and bodies would be more disorienting than just bullet like coins, which would also make cracks.

Second fight to look at is Szeth against anyone in shardplate. If you can't beat him because of his powers, you probably can't beat a mistborn. If you can't fight someone who could just about fly, throw people and things at you,fights without shardplate and still has the speed and strength of someone in it, and over all just fights with magic, then you can't If you can't fight someone who could just about fly, throw people and things at you,fights without shardplate and still has the speed and strength of someone in it, and over all just fights with magic.

[Mailliw73]

Part One

Dalinar was annoyed. This man had showed up out of nowhere and challenged Dalinar himself to a duel. Dalinar couldn't back down from a duel. The other highprinces already thought he was weak enough. The man had denied the option of borrowing Elhokar's Plate and Blade for the duel. Dalinar couldn't figure out why he would turn that down. Didn't he know that fighting a Shardbearer without armor was utter suicide?

Kelsier was pleased with himself. He had successfully challenged the king's own uncle to a duel. If he beat the man, he would gain all the notoriety he needed and could effectively change the world for the darkeyes. That was an even worse way to classify status than The Lord Ruler had had. Kelsier Steelpushed on a coin, launching himself out to the arranged plateau. He had chosen one not too far away from the war camps. Like always, he was late to the duel. This Dalinar man had honor and rules, Kelsier could tell. He could use that to his advantage, being bound by no such rules. Kell landed right in front of the highprince, startling his guard. "Ready to begin?" he asked the Plate-clad figure. Obviously confused, but trying to seem calm, Dalinar responded, "I have been ready for a while. Let's get this over with."

Burning steel, Kelsier stepped back, appearing to start a regular duel. At the call to begin from one of the observing scribes, Kelsier noticed that no lines led to the high prince's Plate or Blade. Shocked, he threw down a coin and Pushed himself into the air just in time to dodge the blur that was a Shardblade. That man could move fast. Kell was beginning to realize that maybe he had underestimated the qualities of this armor and blade.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Mailliw73

[Pathfinder]

One thing I pointed out in another thread, to be doing all this steel pushing of hundreds of coins, coupled with using dularium (which completely exhausts whatever metal it is burned with), Kelsier will need A LOT of vials and have to be downing them quite frequently. As shown in Vin's later battles when she aquires dularium. Not saying this would change the result of the battle, nor negate the cleverness of using the chasms to his advantage (good show on that btw), just thought it would be worth noting as well as including in any fictional portrayal of said fight. 

[jag519]

I also think if we give him Dularium it isn't really fair anyway. Because he doesn't know of that metal during a version of him that is fair to fight. He knew of the normal metals and atium, giving him the ability to Dburst, leech, time manipulate, etc, it wouldn't be that fair. Think if he could go into his time bubble with Dalinar on the outside, get close enough to touch him, drop the bubble and touch his chest before D has the chance to swing, Drains the chest piece of it's investiture, Makes Dalinar unable to stand because his chestplate is heavy as storm and not holding everything together, and then pushes off of the chestplate that is now metal and not invested.

Like I'm obviously on team Kel would win, but giving him access to all of the metals even ones he didn't have when he was around and taking Dalinar when he is just a badass warrior with magic weapons and no magic himself, it wouldn't be very fair.

That being said, I agree, he'd def need to take vial after vial if he's got.

Also, I do like that when people are giving him metals he didn't know of, Dularium is the only one he's getting, and not the ones that I mentioned above, which would be way too OP, while Dularium isn't really that OP.

[Mailliw73]

Here's Part Two

Part Two

Dalinar was shocked by this man's flight. First, he came flying in out of nowhere and now he shoots into the sky to hide. Where is his honor? Was this a blasphemous Radiant of old? They too were rumored to have the capability to fly. Dalinar was bothered by this. His visions had been straying into topics normally taboo by society. A metallic tap on his shoulder shook him back into the battle. He turned and saw small coins falling from the sky, hitting his Plate. Cursing, Dalinar ran to a stone formation nearby. Hiding behind, he quickly carved out a sizable chunk from the side of the stone. He watched for the next coin to fly and then heaved the stone up towards the source of the falling coins. He heard a quiet grunt and then saw the rock hurtling back towards the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kelsier had been happily floating up in front of the sun to blind his opponent while he pelted him with boxings he had brought when, burning tin, he saw a small boulder flying up towards him. Balancing on his tripod of coins, he flared pewter and caught the stone. He spotted Highprince Dalinar near a rock formation and threw the boulder back at him. Dalinar threw himself to the ground behind the formation and the boulder just missed. Kelsier realized he had seriously underestimated the magic here. Downing another vial of metals, he renewed his coin assault on the Highprince.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dalinar felt the Thrill grow inside him. He was the Blackthorn. This flying heretic had no right to think he could defeat him. Cutting more stones out with his Blade, Dalinar made a heap of rocks to throw. He thrust his Blade into the ground, willing it to stay and picked up the top stone on the pile. Heaving one after another, he started a barrage of boulders. The man almost was hit by the first one but swiftly recovered and after throwing coins out to the sides maneuvered around the following boulders in the air.

A coin came straight towards Dalinar. Hitting him square in the breastplate, the coin jolted him back a bit. He stood in Stonestance, setting himself more firmly in the ground and held onto the hilt of his blade still stuck in the plateau. The coin pressed against his Plate, but his weight and grip held out. The man in the sky was flown backwards.

[Mailliw73]

Is anyone interested in seeing the rest of this?

[jag519]

Yeah, I like it

[A Joe in the Bush]

You guys are forgetting something. In the beginning of Mistborn, Kelsier flared Brass and made Vin just stand there. The entire room didn't react to anything he did. Kelsier could just Pacify Dalinar, then walk up and stab him through the Storming Eyehole.

[Kobold King]

You guys are forgetting something. In the beginning of Mistborn, Kelsier flared Brass and made Vin just stand there. The entire room didn't react to anything he did. Kelsier could just Pacify Dalinar, then walk up and stab him through the Storming Eyehole.

 

There's an interesting thought. We know that highly Invested materials interfere with other forms of Investiture. You can't Lash a man in Shardplate. You can't Push against Shardplate.

 

Would emotional Allomancy even work on a Shardbearer, or would the Plate block the effect in a manner analogous to how aluminum hats block Soothing and Rioting?

[A Joe in the Bush]

Well Spikes are heavily invested and they block Allomancy in the-  Wait, that's the Flaw. Hmm. . . We need to Test this.

[Mailliw73]

Yeah, I like it

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 387973120 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 456026416 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

Thanks. Okay, I'll keep it up then.

Kobold, that's what I thought possible too. I hope to ask Brandon someday. I added it to my list of questions. If you can't physically push or Pull them, I think it is reasonable to assume that you can emotionally push or Pull either.

[Lightning]

Moogle beat me to my idea (by 7 days).  I'd think Kel would just push some of the coins past Dalinar, create an anchor on the other side, and then pull him over the edge.  [Probably he would wait until Dalinar was very close to the edge, or perhaps even jumping the gap, before trying this.]

[jag519]

This leads to a more interesting question, I think.

We assume that because of the investiture in the shardplate that he can't be emotionally pushed, but this is the Blackthorn in his prime, would the investiture of what ever the Thrill is make it more difficult to push?

"Feel dull" "storm you, I'm in a fight!"

[Pathfinder]

This leads to a more interesting question, I think. We assume that because of the investiture in the shardplate that he can't be emotionally pushed, but this is the Blackthorn in his prime, would the investiture of what ever the Thrill is make it more difficult to push? "Feel dull" "storm you, I'm in a fight!"

Or would it in fact negate the Thrill?