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Kelsier vs. Dalinar


Kelsier vs. Dalinar  

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  1. 1. Kell vs. Dalinar

    • Kelsier
      60
    • Dalinar
      17
    • Stalemate
      3


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So, this is another cage match, but one I think is more fairly matched than some others. If Kelsier were to fight Dalinar, who would win?

A bit of WoR spoilers.

Dalinar as a Full Shardbearer and the Blackthorn, but without Surgebinding abilities. So Dalinar in the first book.

And Kelsier as he is in TFE. A very experienced Mistborn specializing in iron and steel.

Edited by Mailliw73
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Personally don't think it's much of a competition. Kelsier without breaking a sweat. Shards are powerful against regular soldiers but a talented mistborn just has too much versatility for a shardbearer to handle.

Bondsmith Dalinar though.... I'll reassess after seeing what he can actually do

Edited by Awesomeness Summoned
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Dalinar the Blackthorn is a powerful warrior. He has laid waste to thousands of Parshendi warriors. Long before the Vengeance Pact, he was instrumental in uniting Alethkar by sheer brute strength.

 

But Kelsier would still win. Kelsier as a Mistborn possesses far greater speed and versatility. While Dalinar could instantly kill Kelsier with a swipe of the Shardblade, the Survivor of Hathshin would know better than to come too close. He can keep his distance, pelting coins at Dalinar's weak spots from afar.

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...And Brandon has basically answered this question, when he was asked whether Kaladin or Kelsier would win. It would still be Kelsier, because he's the one who can sneak up on his sleeping opponent and slit his throat.

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I voted Kelsier (would vote Eland if that were the option) based on current knowledge.  However, ther is no telling how this fight would go if and when Dalinar achieves level five Bondsmith.  At the moment it is a completely unfair fight.  At full power though Dalinar might just have to look at him to make him explode or something (should he feel so inclined).

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Though if it was a fight between a Dalinar, who has spoken all of his ideals, or Kelsier, then I'm afraid that Dalinar would completely destroy him. Because having access to a Weapon that can kill with one hit, Stormlight that heals and improves all of the Surgebinders physical attributes, plus Shardplate... There is very little in the cosmere ( not including those on Roshar ) that could take a full Surgebinder 1v1. Except a Mistborn/Furechemist or possibly the Godking. ( and Hoid, obviously )

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I think were underestimating Dalinar here. Don't forget that the Shardplate makes him fast as well as strong, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets him on a level with a Pewter burning Mistborn (though perhaps not a flaring one). Of course, Kelsier could just stay far out of his reach, but if he did come close enough, I don't think he would have been able to dodge everything (assuming he doesn't have Atium).

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Okay, I think for the sake of fairness, we should remove the atium factor. Mistborn are essentially invincible with it. 

 

For the sake of argument, I'll go and say Dalinar would win it. Why? For starters, even if Kelsier stood off and pelted him with coins, Shardplate is very durable - and I'd bet that it improves agility as well, so it'd essentially be like having pewter. Even if Kelsier got in close, glass daggers can't do much against Shardplate. You could stab him in the eye I suppose, but we know Dalinar is no mere novice, and that would be extremely hard to pull off on him. His Shardblade would cut through anything Kelsier could throw against him as well.

 

The only way I could see Kelsier winning without atium would be if he got in close, burned duralumin and pewter and then hit Dalinar's chestplate as hard as he could. If it breaks instantly, he wins. If not... Kelsier dies.

 

TL;DR Kelsier is more versatile but Dalinar's Shards have such a edge that even those wouldn't matter, bar atium.

 

Still, though. What about an Inquisitor, or a Feruchemist?

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At first, I thought that Kelsier would win hands down, but now I think Dalinar might actually win. I agree, any advantage Kelsier has with increased strength and stamina, Dalinar would match with Shardplate or Stormlight. So one does not have an insurmountable advantage over the other (in a no atium fight that is).

 

Kelsier can fight from a distance, being evasive, perceptive, pelting Dalinar with coins, etc,, but he can't win a fight from a distance. Dalinar's Shardplate could take the onslaught, and Stormlight could heal it easily as well. I think Kelsier would have to come close for a win. No matter how crafty Kelsier is (and he is a crafty one), in a face to face, punch for punch, sword against sword, type of fight, I think Dalinar would have the edge. 

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Kelsier hands down. Kelsier can stay in the air, and Dalinar can do nothing but cover his eyes and be sad while Kelsier flings metal down at him. Kelsier can outrun Dalinar with Steelpushing. Also: Dalinar can't stay in armor forever, so Kelsier can just play dirty and kill him when he's taking a bath.

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Kelsier hands down. Kelsier can stay in the air, and Dalinar can do nothing but cover his eyes and be sad while Kelsier flings metal down at him. Kelsier can outrun Dalinar with Steelpushing. Also: Dalinar can't stay in armor forever, so Kelsier can just play dirty and kill him when he's taking a bath.

 

Metals run out, though. And Kelsier's coins are hardly going to put a dent in Shardplate. 

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Kelsier can stay in the air higher than Dalinar can jump and there will be nothing Dalinar could do to take him down. Kelsier wouldn't need to get too close to him and Duralumin-Pewter to break Shardplate, just close enough to shotgun him with coins and I don't think Shardplate would stand a chance against it if he used Duralumin. And yes, Kel wasn't too good with pewter + tin, but I think he could easily take out a simple Shardbearer just like Kaladin did it several times. Blackthorn isn't simple Shardbearer but throw in there iron and steel and there's no way Dalinar could stand against him, even without coins as long as there is enough metal around to stay in motion.

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Without atium, in an extended battle, Dalinar would likely win.  Dalinar has shown he can fight for hours in terrible conditions.  Shardplate and Shardblades are too highly invested to be Pushed/Pulled easily, though duralumin might do it if strong enough.  Dalinar is the better warrior and Stormlight regenerates, heals and improves endurance.

 

In Shardplate, Dalinar would be too heavy for Kelsier to affect very well.  Even using his full weight to Push, he wouldn't be able to do much to Dalinar.

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He doesn't need to push against Dalinar. Just give momentum to coins, one wouldn't do much, but in extended battle he would be able to get in tons of them while Dalinar would be running after him sweating. Kelsier has kept doing it for hours as far as we know and he has more endurance while burning Pewter than Dalinar in his Shards.

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Dalinar using Stormlight would have more endurance than Kelsier burning pewter.  Doesn't pewter burn fairly fast?  Dalinar also has the cohesion surge, iirc, so he could Lash the coins to the ground or something to keep them away from him.

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Kelsier can stay in the air higher than Dalinar can jump and there will be nothing Dalinar could do to take him down. Kelsier wouldn't need to get too close to him and Duralumin-Pewter to break Shardplate, just close enough to shotgun him with coins and I don't think Shardplate would stand a chance against it if he used Duralumin. And yes, Kel wasn't too good with pewter + tin, but I think he could easily take out a simple Shardbearer just like Kaladin did it several times. Blackthorn isn't simple Shardbearer but throw in there iron and steel and there's no way Dalinar could stand against him, even without coins as long as there is enough metal around to stay in motion.

He doesn't need to push against Dalinar. Just give momentum to coins, one wouldn't do much, but in extended battle he would be able to get in tons of them while Dalinar would be running after him sweating. Kelsier has kept doing it for hours as far as we know and he has more endurance while burning Pewter than Dalinar in his Shards.

 

Nah, Dalinar would be fast enough to avoid some of the coins, and Shardplate is vastly far more durable than simple metal. Have you ever seen a Mistborn try to shoot a coin through armor, even with duralumin? Also, Dalinar would be smart enough to not go running around like a novice - I'm pretty sure he's survived countless attempts to defeat a Shardbearer. 

 

 

Without atium, in an extended battle, Dalinar would likely win.  Dalinar has shown he can fight for hours in terrible conditions.  Shardplate and Shardblades are too highly invested to be Pushed/Pulled easily, though duralumin might do it if strong enough.  Dalinar is the better warrior and Stormlight regenerates, heals and improves endurance.

 

In Shardplate, Dalinar would be too heavy for Kelsier to affect very well.  Even using his full weight to Push, he wouldn't be able to do much to Dalinar.

 

I think we have a WoB saying only someone Invested with the Well's power can push on a Shardblade or Shardplate. To be fair though Dalinar wouldn't have the Stormlight healing factor (if you exclude all his Radiant powers). Unless you're just bringing up the TWoK iteration, in which I suppose he would have the healing factor, at least.

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Dalinar using Stormlight would have more endurance than Kelsier burning pewter.  Doesn't pewter burn fairly fast?  Dalinar also has the cohesion surge, iirc, so he could Lash the coins to the ground or something to keep them away from him.

 

I think it's been said that Dalinar can't Surgebind here. Only Shards.

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Nah, I don't know, if Shardplate gets dented by normal weapons and it does because Dalinar's plate was in a pretty bad shape when he fought on Tower and not only, then it can be dented and broken by coins. I'm not talking here single coin doing all the job but I'm pretty sure if someone could land several arrows in the exact same place perfectly than it would get dented and then broken after some more. Coins would have same effect, with less damage most likely but higher attack speed and accuracy as there is no need to reload it and it can be shot straight + Kelsier can keep moving while shooting and he would have 'infinite' amount of coins as he can pull them. Don't forget surprise attacks from behind with iron. Dalinar also would need to keep his eyes protected.

Ketek
Fast enough to avoid how? Because he would need to run to Kelsier if he wanted to harm him. Even if he did some magic moves while charging Kelsier he wouldn't be able to avoid much as he's a big target AND he's not faster than arrows as far as I know. Did I mention that Kelsier wouldn't have to shoot coins one by one? He can keep shooting coins all over the place all the time. 

Edited by Cracknut
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Nah, I don't know, if Shardplate gets dented by normal weapons and it does because Dalinar's plate was in a pretty bad shape when he fought on Tower and not only, then it can be dented and broken by coins. I'm not talking here single coin doing all the job but I'm pretty sure if someone could land several arrows in the exact same place perfectly than it would get dented and then broken after some more. Coins would have same effect, with less damage most likely but higher attack speed and accuracy as there is no need to reload it and it can be shot straight + Kelsier can keep moving while shooting and he would have 'infinite' amount of coins as he can pull them. Don't forget surprise attacks from behind with iron. Dalinar also would need to keep his eyes protected.

 

Shardplate can be dented and broken, but we've always seen it happen after applications of extreme force, like say a Shardhammer or a prolonged battle. Kelsier's coins won't have that much kinetic force behind them, and since it's thrown rather than shot, the scatter would prevent more than a single hit at the same spot, excluding blind luck. Sure, Kelsier's good at steel and iron, but even he doesn't have control that precise. And it's not that hard to keep your eyes protected - he could just swing one-handed and keep one hand close to the visor as a shield of sorts.

 

 

Ketek

Fast enough to avoid how? Because he would need to run to Kelsier if he wanted to harm him. Even if he did some magic moves while charging Kelsier he wouldn't be able to avoid much as he's a big target AND he's not faster than arrows as far as I know. Did I mention that Kelsier wouldn't have to shoot coins one by one? He can keep shooting coins all over the place all the time. 

 

Fast enough to dodge them. Not all, but some. The point is, Kelsier can't harm him fast enough to kill him without getting close - so Dalinar has no need to attack him. All he needs to do is wait until Kelsier runs out of metals, or tries attacking from a closer range.

 

And like I said, the coins wouldn't have proper aim behind them. Steelpushing isn't super-precise - Kelsier's 'windmill' feat was done with bigger metallic objects. With coins, it's very straightforward. Throw and shoot. Shardplate easily deflects that.

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Kelsier is a lot more dependant on the surroundings than Dalinar is. Even if we assume that the starting field is in Kel´s advantage and has a lot of metal foothold, Dalinar could use his Shardblade to cut those down. After that Kel only has anchors on the ground, which would make it a lot harder to stabilize himself for stronger push ad pulls. Even if Kel can use the metals on the ground to built himself a foothold he would have to stop moving for strong pushes, otherwise the force would just toss him away and not enough strenght is left to harm the plate.

Any ideas what Dalinar could do when Kel stands still? How about throwing his Shardblade. He most likely won´t be able to actually hit Kel but he will have to evade, which in turn throws of his pushes.

This would most likely turn the fight into a stalemate, that could go either way depending on who can take the attrition better. The only thing that could change up the flow of the battle is a Duraluminium enhanced push, if Kelsier uses this trick he puts pretty much the fight on that one card. Should Dalinar be able to evade, deflect, cut out of the air or just simply be able to tank the bullet Kelsier would be without mobility for that moment and there is a pretty good chance that Dalinar can take him out in that time span.

Furthermore, Dalinar owns close-quarter combat.

 

Overall, this is a pretty close one but I´m putting my money on Dalinar.

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