Trell is not Autonomy

[Leyrann]

Bear with me for a moment.

I was convinced of this - popular - assumption myself as well, until I read the epilogue of Bands of Mourning. For context, one of the red-eyed creatures (who are apparently the Trell version of Kandra in some way; that's what the Set considers them at least) visits Suit in prison and, after this exchange, blows up the entire thing. All bolded mine, as well as things in square brackets.

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"Our accelerated pace will no longer require the Set to have its full hierarchy."

"But you need us!" Suit said. "To rule, to manage civilization on--" [most likely Scadrial]

"No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service; it has been accepted. You will be allowed to serve in another realm."

This very strongly implies that the Set and Trell are Cosmere aware, and likely even have interplanetary contact.

Now, you're probably saying, of course Trell is Cosmere aware, being a Shard and all.

But what about the people on worlds controlled by Autonomy? Sure, Khriss is from Taldain, but despite having a university education, she originally has no knowledge of the Cosmere. And as for First of the Sun, the locals are only aware of the Cosmere insofar they're in touch with the Ones Above. [Note: this is my assumption from the Coppermind, I have admittedly not read First of the Sun myself]

So if Trell is Autonomy, why would the Set be Cosmere aware?

It just doesn't fit with what we know of Autonomy.

Now, I realize the primary argument for Autonomy = Trell is that we know that Autonomy is known to meddle with other planets. That is, however, a minor hint at most. And - personal opinion here - doesn't it seem a little convenient that we have an obvious case of a Shard meddling on another planet?

I know, that's not an argument against it in itself. It's not intended to be, I mostly intend to say that it shouldn't be considered an argument in favor of the theory.

 

This all of course doesn't mean much, unless I come with something better - or at least something else, as I realize I'm drawing from a contested theory here.

I think Trell is the Shard I originally named Curiosity when I made an attempt to predict the Shards, though I now believe that name may be off - or at the very least not it's only possible interpretation. Note how I theorize this Shard is about change, with a focus on change in thoughts and position or movement. As I summarized in the theory, wanting thoughts to change and wanting to be everywhere.

This certainly fits the Set's technological advancements in various areas (reverse engineering Southerner technology, phones, etc) and also fits an expansionist drive to cover more and more worlds - very befitting the image that I remember popping up in my mind when considering this Shard for the linked theory half a year ago, of a ship exploring unknown lands to find new, well, anything. In fact, as I am writing this picture down, I realize how close Trell could have potentially - if his plans would have worked out as intended previous to Bands of Mourning - colonized Scadrial and subjugated the local population, much like Europe subjugated the rest of the world in the colonial era. (in fact that may still be his plan)

Having said that, I think Curiosity is too friendly a name for a Shard willing to conquer just to find explore - though it is only logical, as Shards are aspects taken to their extreme. As for what the Shard's name should be, I have given this quite a bit of thought and I find it hard to come with a definitive answer, and I find that, in the end, I come to something that can be very similar - but just keep in mind the idea of "your freedom fighters are our terrorists". I think that this Shard may be called Liberation, as it attempts to give people the freedom to expand their knowledge and spread, as well as aiming to do so itself - liberating it from more closeminded entities, so to say. Other Intent names I have considered are Sovereignty, Rulership, Expansionism, Colonialism, but I do not like any of those - and really, I'm not too much a fan of Liberation either, but I simply cannot think of anything better.

One last thing, mostly unrelated to everything else, I think we may be in for a surprise when The Lost Metal comes around. To specify, I think we're going to see the first in-book signs of interplanetary contact as Trell's other controlled planet(s) have to be held back from Scadrial. Whether or not this happens, I expect that, by the time MB Era 3 rolls around, at the very least the existence of other inhabited planets will be commonplace. We may be getting the first signs of the Cosmere showdown earlier than we thought.

[Calderis]

Trell is a Shard we know. 

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Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy
source

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

Through that and process of elimination, we get down to Trell being either Odium or Autonomy. 

This is why the Autonomy=Trell theory is so popular 

[Leyrann]

Just now, Calderis said:

Trell is a Shard we know. 

Through that and process of elimination, we get down to Trell being either Odium or Autonomy. 

This is why the Autonomy=Trell theory is so popular 

...Are you freaking kidding me.

I read every WoB about Trell to make sure this wasn't the case and it's still the case.

[Ashertliden]

7 hours ago, Leyrann said:

...Are you freaking kidding me.

I read every WoB about Trell to make sure this wasn't the case and it's still the case.

We need to make "Calderised" a verb for situations like this.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Trell is a Shard we know. 

Through that and process of elimination, we get down to Trell being either Odium or Autonomy. 

Or Cultivation. Or a reformed Devotion/Dominion, if certain cryptic hints about Trell and Sel are anything other than a red herring: 

 

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Questioner

Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

source

 

 

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bondzy1220

Am I correct in assuming that the origin of the mystery spike in bleeder is mentioned in "Emperor's soul"?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO (a Read and Find out) but your theory has merit.

source 

 

EDIT: Gah, those shouldn't be nested.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist

[Calderis]

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist I don't see how it would be Cultivation at all... And in the Devotion/Dominion front, if the first we heard of it being fixed was in Mistborn I'd be slightly annoyed... But I take that to WoB about miles very very differently (and souls tone doesn't match Trelliums discription. For one thing it's not metal).

Jaddeth is very much a Dominion analogue, and I think we can thank the Skaze for that. 

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Locke219

When Dilaf is instructing the monks in how to kill the Elantrians, he mentions purification rites that need to be spoken. Do the rites have to do with the Dor? Or are they purely religious/ritualistic?

Brandon Sanderson

They are mostly ritualistic, but a lot of what the Dakhor do is strongly influenced by the Skaze. Read into that what you will.

source

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Questioner

[Does] the expansion of Jaddeth’s empire have more to do with greed and hunger for power, or the innate nature of Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

Both. I would say both. The innate nature of Dominion probably caused the greed and hunger for power.

Questioner

What would you say percentage-wise?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, one caused the other. It definitely started with Dominion. The Skaze are pretty thirsty for power.

source

I think the Set's immortals are Svrakiss... But Svrakiss were the enemies of Jaddeth/Dominion 

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Dilaf’s face grew pale. “What you say is—”
“Not blasphemy, Arteth. Doctrine. There is another supernatural force besides our God.”
“The Svrakiss,” Dilaf said quietly.
“Yes.” Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away.

So Svrakiss would be either a tool of Odium... Which fits the description. Or we get confirmation that Autonomy really did help Odium on Sel. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Calderis

[goody153]

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist It simply is quite unlikely to be Cultivation (unless Stormlight first-half ends with a fused Odium/Cultivation or something insane) especially if you think about that Harmony actually is doing cultivations work in Scadrial basically creating progress for his people.

Besides Cultivation has her hands full with Odium aka the hyped most dangerous shard in Cosmere so she isn't likely to multitask and face both the most dangerous possible adversary in Cosmere which is Odium and Harmony. 

The red haze represents corrupted/corrupted investiture so Dominion could not be unlikely.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, goody153 said:

The red haze represents corrupted/corrupted investiture so Dominion could not be unlikely.

The red haze probably doesn't actually mean that, unless Sazed did it subconsciously as a Shard. That wasn't an image of reality. It was a constructed image that Sazed fabricated to demonstrate what was going on. 

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What is it?” Wax asked, trying to take in that vast redness. It beat inward, but he could see something, a thin strip of light—like a bubble around the world—stopping it.
“A representation,” Harmony said. “A crude one, perhaps.” He looked to Wax and smiled, like a father at a wide-eyed child.

 

[goody153]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The red haze probably doesn't actually mean that, unless Sazed did it subconsciously as a Shard. That wasn't an image of reality. It was a constructed image that Sazed fabricated to demonstrate what was going on. 

So that might actually just be how Sazed sees it or how he wants to describe it to Wax as much as possible.

Not necessarily a coopted/corrupted investiture. Didn't of it that way but that is indeed possible

Edited September 24, 2018 by goody153

[Leyrann]

12 hours ago, Kal-Eldin said:

We need to make "Calderised" a verb for situations like this.

Last time it was RShara though...

11 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Or Cultivation. Or a reformed Devotion/Dominion, if certain cryptic hints about Trell and Sel are anything other than a red herring: 

You know what, I could see a reformed Dominion doing this as well.

I do agree with @Calderis however that it wouldn't be likely for us to discover that through Mistborn Era 2. In that case, I expect that we will not learn (much) more about "Trell" in The Lost Metal, but rather learn about this in Mistborn Era 3. Also keep in mind this WoB:

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Brandon Sanderson

Elantris sequels

The Emperor’s Soul is now two years old, so it is probably time to get back to Sel and do some more there. We should be releasing a trade paperback of Elantris in the next year or two, with revised (and new) maps and a better Ars Arcanum. (Read: an Ars Arcanum.)

The full sequels will need to be finished before I can do the contemporary (1980s tech) Mistborn novels because of behind-the-scenes Cosmere bits, so I will do my best to find a place to squeeze these in. At the very least, I will write them following the end of Stormlight 5. So, these are distant, but not too distant.

 

[supersmith]

What if it's Sazed as Harmony doing all this, maybe a bit of a stretch but he does talk about how he wishes the world had a challenge so it would advance more. 

[RShara]

6 minutes ago, supersmith said:

What if it's Sazed as Harmony doing all this, maybe a bit of a stretch but he does talk about how he wishes the world had a challenge so it would advance more. 

I don't think Sazed would tell Wax there's a threat when there isn't. Or send Wax and the kandra to stop the Set if he were behind them. And the actions of the Set and the red-eyed  Faceless Immortal are very out of character for him.

 

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Last time it was RShara though...

Edited September 24, 2018 by RShara

[supersmith]

Yea your probably right. I still think it would be a cool plot twist, seeing as it's not story arc we've seen before. 

[Leyrann]

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Stop being so smug.  

[Draginon]

You know if it does turn out to be a reformed Dominion then we already have the pieces to explain how he's back: Shai is confirmed to play a part in the Elantris sequels and Forgery can rewrite history. What if she brings him back? What if she decides to up herself from reforging a ruler's soul and reforge a god? And who knows how Forgery affects a Shard. All of this also would explain why the Ire are pretty mum about events that have happened on Sel.

[Calderis]

39 minutes ago, Draginon said:

Shai is confirmed to play a part in the Elantris sequels

Really? I haven't seen that, but I'd love more Shai. 

39 minutes ago, Draginon said:

What if she decides to up herself from reforging a ruler's soul and reforge a god? And who knows how Forgery affects a Shard.

I highly doubt this. You need a physical medium to stamp in the first place, and second, trying to stamp investiture itself... Shouldn't work. The investiture interference would be astronomical. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Draginon]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Really? I haven't seen that, but I'd love more Shai. 

I highly doubt this. You need a ohysical medium to stamp in the first place, and second, trying to stamp investiture itself... Shouldn't work. The investiture interference would be astronomical. 

Here's the WOB on her future role

Aleesha (paraphrased)

Will Shai have a role in the next Elantris books?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes she will have a role in the future Elantris books or at least a cameo in them if not.

 

Thats the thing, we don't know what happened to Dominion's physical body. For all we know it could be preserved somewhere on Sel. We also don't know what happens to the body of a Shard if they die and it's left alone, whether it becomes a mortal body or stays 'immortal'. If his body is still around on Sel somewhere and Shai made it where he was just badly injured instead of Splintered like with the Emperor...

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, goody153 said:

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist It simply is quite unlikely to be Cultivation (unless Stormlight first-half ends with a fused Odium/Cultivation or something insane) especially if you think about that Harmony actually is doing cultivations work in Scadrial basically creating progress for his people.

Does a Shard wanting things to grow really like technology?

[Ripheus23]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

a fused Odium/Cultivation or something insane

Cultivium, Odivation... These are good 'ship names, at the least.

Maybe Harmony is Trell and he doesn't realize it because his mind is so messed up, so he's hacking his own Investiture or something. 

[Ashertliden]

The black sphere is Trell

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Draginon said:

Thats the thing, we don't know what happened to Dominion's physical body. For all we know it could be preserved somewhere on Sel. We also don't know what happens to the body of a Shard if they die and it's left alone, whether it becomes a mortal body or stays 'immortal'

First, thank you for the WoB.

We don't know what happened to its body, but it's been millenia since D&D were shattered. It should be gone. Because we have been told what would happen to a Vessel that set down its Shard. 

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Questioner (paraphrased)

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He could have survived the Splintering.

Questioner (paraphrased)

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Questioner (paraphrased)

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Right.

source

And considering the state of the Dor, I don't think D&D happened like Honor. Khriss believes that the Vessels were forced Beyond, 

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I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape. This is difficult to determine for certain now, however, as at some point in the distant past, both Devotion and Dominion were destroyed. Their Investiture—their power—was Splintered, their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond.

Even if Dominion's body had somehow survived, Ashravan's body was healed, so building a Cognitive aspect for that was more plausible. Dominion's body should actually be a corpse, so you'd have to overwrite thousands of years of death, not 3 months of a Coma. 

It's obviously just my opinion here, but these are the reasons that I don't think it would work. 

[goody153]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Does a Shard wanting things to grow really like technology?

You are associating Cultivation with the concept of nature like druids/green/and stuff which isn't exactly what she is. She is all kinds of growth. Hell she even cares about personal character growth which is a moralisitc nature of growth not just physical growth. Technological growth that helps society in exchange for the cutting of old ways is basically cultivation

Remember how Ruin welcome all kinds of change/death regardless of where it comes from, same with preservation wanting to things to not change even a totalitarian government lasting for a long time.

Edited September 25, 2018 by goody153

[Yata]

Indeed Cultivation is the antithesis of nature. It's the willing change, the plan to improve... Nobody ever realized but the farmer is the man who goes against the nature, deciding what grown and what can't, forcing the timing for his own profits and ECC...

Returning to the "reforger Skai" with tons of caveats I could see it as possible. But that would not chance anything... You pseudo resurrected something that seems the former Vessel of Dominion. Truly an amazing feat... But the Shard is not the Vessel. This truly incredible work can't affect the Shard itself. Much more as you are creating a new soul for Skai's corpse... This new fake soul will not even inherit the Connections Skai had with... Everything (as it was a Shard invested in Sel)

[Draginon]

@Yata Isn't the Skaze part of Skai/Dominion's power? What if someone bound them all together again to recreate either Skai or Dominion in a new body? Heck it could be done if you combine the different Dor systems.

[Fanghur Rahl]

On 2018-09-24 at 1:28 AM, goody153 said:

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist It simply is quite unlikely to be Cultivation (unless Stormlight first-half ends with a fused Odium/Cultivation or something insane) especially if you think about that Harmony actually is doing cultivations work in Scadrial basically creating progress for his people.

That’s exactly why I very much hope that Harmony somehow acquires Cultivation as well; it certainly fits his personality much better than the other two. That aside though, I agree, Cultivation may be kind of uncaring, but she isn’t overtly meddling in the affairs of other worlds, at least not yet. Whoever Trell is, and I still can’t help but suspect that Autonomy is being set up as a red herring, it certainly isn’t Cultivation.

Part of me wonders whether Brandon at some point hyper-covertly identified one of the remaining Shards in either a WOB or one of his books, and Trell is actually that Shard. Then technically it would be a Shard we ‘know’.