Did Adonalsium have a perpendicularity?

[Ripheus23]

Originally when I asked this question, I thought the answer would probably be a yes. It seemed to me that if mathematically sufficient concentrations of Investiture cause perpendicularities, then surely the ultimate such concentration of all (known) time would have brought one about. However, my overarching theory of Adonalsium is that it was the self-aware, self-willing Investiture present during the Big Bang, when matter and energy decoupled from each other and from their third equivalent. But unlike matter and energy, I think Adonalsium did not get pulled very far outward with the initial inflation and subsequent expansion. He remained "in place" so to speak.

If so, I suspect the mystery of why the universe didn't more or less "instantly" collapse into the ultimate black hole, during the initial inflation, is reflected in the dynamics of Adonalsium. That is, a black hole naturally forms from a sufficient concentration of matter/energy (there's a hypothetical "kugelblitz" which would result from condensing way too many photons in a region), yet despite the primordial universe easily exceeding the density requirements for forming black holes, the universe expanded, and continues to do so, even apparently (temporarily or not) expanding at an accelerated rate.

My theory, then, is that Adonalsium did not in itself have a perpendicularity, or if it did this was very unlike those of the Shards, not just in degree but in kind. By theory then is that the Shattering of Adonalsium was brought about by somehow causing Adonalsium to acquire a perpendicularity like those of the Shards.

[Jace21]

I'm not sure Adonalsium had anything to do with the big bang.

To the best of our knowledge everything related to Shards and Adonalsium is confined to the Cosemere, a single dwarf galaxy.

While it is possible Adonalsium is related to the events just after the big bang, I dont see any evidence for it.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Jace21

[+Artemos]

Somewhat relevant wob for regarding Creation and Adonalsium and capital-G God:

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Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW]

How closely does Adonalsium map to the gnostic demiurge?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

A little bit.

Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW]

So, not completely? I'm not completely off?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's not off at all. 

Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW]

So, not the urge, but the demiurge. 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh, well I'll have to go read to make sure what I'm talking about then. Your answer is: I will go read and make sure I know. I thought I knew what I was talking about.

Billy Todd [PENDING REVIEW]

So, there's the creator, which is the urge, which is the creator of the Universe. *large hand gesture* The demiurge is actually God. The demiurge is the one that creates [its] universe, *small hand gesture inside larger gesture* and entities living within the universe need knowledge of that which is beyond what the demiurge has created.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, that matches pretty well.

source

I'm not trying to argue how Adonalsium was related to the Big Bang (if there even was a Big Bang in the cosmere?), but it's something to keep in mind.

[Ashertliden]

The perpendicularity would be kinda useless as you couldn't get out except through the one I assume would be on Yolen.

[Jace21]

28 minutes ago, A stick said:

The perpendicularity would be kinda useless as you couldn't get out except through the one I assume would be on Yolen.

There is actually the possibility that if Adonalsium had a perdencularity that he had more than one.

He seems to have been based around Yolen, but we know he created at least one other world.

[MountainKing]

First of the Sun's perpendicularity was originally Adonalsium's until is got assigned to Autonomy, and I believe it's confirmed that other planets had perpendicularities before the shattering.

Edited September 16, 2018 by MountainKing
Autocorrect

[Jace21]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

First of the Sun's perpendicularity was originally Adonalsium's until is got assigned to Autonomy, and I believe it's confirmed that other planets had perpendicularities before the shattering.

Do you have a source for this?

As far as I am aware neither of those things are confirmed, but I am a bit behind on my WoBs.

[Yata]

We don't know how old is First of the sun's perpendicularity.

Montainking hypothesis could be correct but as far as we know the perpendicularity could be born after the Shattering, maybe caused by the Autonomy manipulation on the planet itself.

By the way, First of the Sun is considered to be a mystery as it has a stable perpendicularity without a shard in residence there (at least is how scholar believe the planet's situation is). This implies that there are not pre-shattering perpendicularies known around. If that was the case, First of the Sun would not be so interesting for academic purposes

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Yata

[Ripheus23]

22 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I'm not sure Adonalsium had anything to do with the big bang.

To the best of our knowledge everything related to Shards and Adonalsium is confined to the Cosemere, a single dwarf galaxy.

While it is possible Adonalsium is related to the events just after the big bang, I dont see any evidence for it.

In the real world, there were several stages of what is called decoupling, when two formerly conjoined forces/fields/w/e turned into two separate ones. But there was no stage per se when the concept of matter and the concept of energy were perfectly coupled, as far as I know. It seems to me that if there was a Big Bang in the Cosmere universe, there would've been a decoupling period, though, because the division of unified substance into matter-energy-Investiture sounds similar enough to the IRL division processes.

True, that's all IF the Cosmere is part of an inflated/expanding universe. However, there is some reason to believe that the laws of chemistry and so on, as we know them, wouldn't exist as they do, unless they unfolded from an inflation episode or whatever. To the extent that these laws of physics are present in the Cosmere, that's evidence that the Cosmere's encompassing universe resulted from an inflation episode.

[Fanghur Rahl]

It’s really hard to draw confident predictions based on physical laws when you have magic in the picture, and especially when you have magical, nigh-omnipotent beings who are able to casually violate said laws with impunity. So who knows? After all, didn’t Harmony pull a ‘Last Thursdayism’ when he recreated Scadrial? If not for the fact that he actually cared about people on Scadrial knowing the truth, they easily could have come to the erroneous conclusion that Scadrial was billions of years old rather than either hundreds or thousands depending on whether you want to consider Harmony’s Scadrial to be the same planet that Ruin and Preservation created or not.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Quantus]

Best I can tell, Adonalsium would have had to put out active effort to avoid creating a Perpendicularity, as all it takes is a stockpile of Investiture and Big-A had an order of magnitude more than any of the shards. Given that Adonalsium was Creating and/or reworking whole worlds, there'd be a certain amount of inherent Investing going on in the physical realm by definition, and in turn that couldnt really avoid the Cognitive; all those together are going to pinch the realms enough to make a perpendicularity.  Unless Adonalsium was taking care to spread the effect out and avoid any accumulation, it would seem inevitable.  Assuming the cosmere worked the same pre-shattering; it could have had wildly different rules.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 8:39 PM, Kal-Eldin said:

The perpendicularity would be kinda useless as you couldn't get out except through the one I assume would be on Yolen.

There are natural Perpendicularities not related to Shards, so presumably there might have been similar ones prior to the Shattering as well.  And even then the Shardic "gravity well" method of creating a perpendicularity for crossing Realms is not the only way to accomplish it; radiants as an example can do it with a surge.  

[+Child of Hodor]

49 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Best I can tell, Adonalsium would have had to put out active effort to avoid creating a Perpendicularity, as all it takes is a stockpile of Investiture and Big-A had an order of magnitude more than any of the shards. Given that Adonalsium was Creating and/or reworking whole worlds, there'd be a certain amount of inherent Investing going on in the physical realm by definition, and in turn that couldnt really avoid the Cognitive; all those together are going to pinch the realms enough to make a perpendicularity.  Unless Adonalsium was taking care to spread the effect out and avoid any accumulation, it would seem inevitable.  Assuming the cosmere worked the same pre-shattering; it could have had wildly different rules.

There are natural Perpendicularities not related to Shards, so presumably there might have been similar ones prior to the Shattering as well.  And even then the Shardic "gravity well" method of creating a perpendicularity for crossing Realms is not the only way to accomplish it; radiants as an example can do it with a surge.  

I think Patji supports this idea. First of the Sun has a perpendicularity without having a Shard "in residence" or having ever been "in residence". It does still have enough investiture concentrated on the island Patji to create a perpendicularity, Patji's Eye. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Patji's_Eye

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The investiture on that planet is residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a shard present. Indeed, I would say that no shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e9385

Adonalsium's investiture could have been significant enough and concentrated enough on various planets to create perpendicularities even if the being Adonalsium was not hanging out on those planets. 

[Ripheus23]

5 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

It’s really hard to draw confident predictions based on physical laws when you have magic in the picture, and especially when you have magical, nigh-omnipotent beings who are able to casually violate said laws with impunity.

Sanderson's metanarrative rules don't allow for too much total rando magic, though. He's said his work as such counts as "science fantasy," so it IS entirely within reason to try to square the way magic works in the Cosmere with the way physics works in our world.

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Best I can tell, Adonalsium would have had to put out active effort to avoid creating a Perpendicularity, as all it takes is a stockpile of Investiture and Big-A had an order of magnitude more than any of the shards.

That's equivalent (or at least congruent) to the question IRL as to why the "stockpile of mass" in the super-early universe didn't automatically form a black hole, when as far as we know "stockpiles of mass" much less in magnitude than that of the super-early universe itself, automatically form black holes.

[Fanghur Rahl]

40 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Sanderson's metanarrative rules don't allow for too much total rando magic, though. He's said his work as such counts as "science fantasy," so it IS entirely within reason to try to square the way magic works in the Cosmere with the way physics works in our world.

That's equivalent (or at least congruent) to the question IRL as to why the "stockpile of mass" in the super-early universe didn't automatically form a black hole, when as far as we know "stockpiles of mass" much less in magnitude than that of the super-early universe itself, automatically form black holes.

Fair enough, though at the very least a Shard’s power qualifies as Clarketech of the highest possible kind.

[Quantus]

14 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

That's equivalent (or at least congruent) to the question IRL as to why the "stockpile of mass" in the super-early universe didn't automatically form a black hole, when as far as we know "stockpiles of mass" much less in magnitude than that of the super-early universe itself, automatically form black holes.

My favorite response to that one was always: "It Did.  This is what the inside of the Universal scale Black Hole looks like."  Not sure how scientifically accurate it is these days but damnation if it didnt derail the conversation at the time.

On a (slightly) more serious note, in both the RL philosophy debates and the Cosmere, the level (and characterization) of any Controlling Sentience that might ahve been present makes all the difference. 

 

 

[Jace21]

On 18/09/2018 at 3:30 PM, Ripheus23 said:

Sanderson's metanarrative rules don't allow for too much total rando magic, though. He's said his work as such counts as "science fantasy," so it IS entirely within reason to try to square the way magic works in the Cosmere with the way physics works in our world.

Brandon writes Hard Fantasy, that does NOT mean magic in the Cosmere can be reconciled fully with real life physics. 

All Brandon means when he says he writes hard/science fantasy is that the rules inside his world are consistent and fit with the overarching magic system.

So the internal rules of the Cosmere include Investiture, Energy and Matter as well as the 3 realms and things like Identity and Connection as fundamental aspects of someones being. Since those things don't exist in our world, any attempt to match Cosmere Realmatics with real life physics can't work perfectly. At best we can come up with rough approximations. 

On a few occasions I think Brandon has even admitted that certain Cosmere things break down if you go into too much detail. He writes realistic fantasy, but it is still fantasy.

Personally I find it incredibly frustrating, as I really want to figure out the Grand Unified Theory of the Cosmere, but I don't think it will work like that.

[Ripheus23]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

... things like Identity and Connection as fundamental aspects of someones being. Since those things don't exist in our world...

Who says Identity and Connection don't exist in the real world? Concepts like haecceities and synchronicities, which are believed by some (including me) to be true of the real world, line up fairly well with such notions. Also consider this:

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This rational explanation is transcendent in the sense that it occurs in several different realms. Mental symmetry describes how it functions in the cognitive realm. The Bible claims that it also occurred historically within the physical realm and that it applies as well to the divine realm. But, it appears that a single rational cognitive model can still be used to explain and connect what is happening in all of these various realms. And, both mental symmetry and theology agree that, as far as humans are concerned, the core struggle occurs within the cognitive realm.

That's from http://www.mentalsymmetry.com/dooyeweerd.php and it is odd that this guy has a physical, cognitive, and spiritual realm in his system...

[Jace21]

Ok, rather than enter into a discussion on the difference between philosophical concepts and scientific principles I will rephrase:

"So the internal rules of the Cosmere include Investiture, Energy and Matter as well as the 3 realms and things like Identity and Connection as fundamental aspects of someones being. Since those things, to the best of our knowledge, don't exist in our world (at least in the same way), any attempt to match Cosmere Realmatics with real life physics can't work perfectly. At best we can come up with rough approximations."

My point still stands though, you cannot simply insert Cosmere Realmatics into real life physics and have it make sense. Some things will reconcile, sure, but many other things won't.

[Ripheus23]

35 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

...any attempt to match Cosmere Realmatics with real life physics can't work perfectly...

Well I just said "so it IS entirely within reason to try to square the way magic works in the Cosmere with the way physics works in our world" to justify drawing a possible analogy between matter-energy not forming an automatic black hole during the inflation of the real universe, and the question whether or not Adonalsium would have had a perpendicularity. I wouldn't pretend to know all the mathematical details that would be relevant to either side of the equation.

3 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Personally I find it incredibly frustrating, as I really want to figure out the Grand Unified Theory of the Cosmere, but I don't think it will work like that.

Unless scientists come up with a good enough GUT for the real world, it won't work out that way for us here, either