Sand Mastery Curiosity

[StanLemon]

So I'm not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, I looked but didn't see anything specifically to this. So it seems to me that the magic system on Taldain is more like that on a Minor Shardworld than a Major Shardworld, or at least something in between. We know that Investiture on Minor Shardworlds is filtered through living organisms which is what happens on Taldain with the lichen coating the sand. Curious what you all think.

Also I considered that maybe that was how Autonomy's magic systems work because she has an Avatar on First of the Sun but that seems weird to me both because it seemingly goes against the Shards Intent and doesn't account for Ashyn (assuming Ashyn is canon and that Autonomy doesn't have an Avatar there)

Edited September 10, 2018 by StanLemon

[Calderis]

Threnody is also a "minor Shard world" and the same doesn't occur. 

And honestly since this whole Avatar business has come to light... Is Taldain really where Bavadin is? Or just another avatar? 

[Quantus]

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

 We know that Investiture on Minor Shardworlds is filtered through living organisms which is what happens on Taldain with the lichen coating the sand. Curious what you all think.

I dont think that's a firm distinction, at least insofar as Investiture seems to always respond to life and/or Sentience even on major shardworlds (unless there has been shardic manipulation otherwise); stormlight to gemheart creatures, spren bonds, needing sentient Commands. even arguably the sDNA that makes 2/3 of the metallic arts possible. 

 

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Also I considered that maybe that was how Autonomy's magic systems work because she has an Avatar on First of the Sun but that seems weird to me both because it seemingly goes against the Shards Intent and doesn't account for Ashyn (assuming Ashyn is canon and that Autonomy doesn't have an Avatar there)

Ashyn is definitely cannon, it's in the greater Roshar system. As far as having a resident shard...Im not really sure on that either, though Stormlight might tell us eventually.

[StanLemon]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Threnody is also a "minor Shard world" and the same doesn't occur. 

And honestly since this whole Avatar business has come to light... Is Taldain really where Bavadin is? Or just another avatar? 

Yeah but Threnody is weird even by Cosmere standards because of the injury Odium inflicted on Ambition there.

And the possibility of only an Avatar being on Taldain is part of why I had this idea in the first place. Though I'm starting to think that Autonomy has stopped being just a single being and more of a gestalt of all the Avatars that compose her now.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I dont think that's a firm distinction, at least insofar as Investiture seems to always respond to life and/or Sentience even on major shardworlds (unless there has been shardic manipulation otherwise); stormlight to gemheart creatures, spren bonds, needing sentient Commands. even arguably the sDNA that makes 2/3 of the metallic arts possible. 

 

Ashyn is definitely cannon, it's in the greater Roshar system. As far as having a resident shard...Im not really sure on that either, though Stormlight might tell us eventually.

While that is true, I still don't consider it the same. While Investiture responds to life, there is a difference between how the Investiture responds between Major and Minor Shardworlds. Major Shardworlds have the users of Investiture be directly infused with it on some level. On Minor Shardworlds though, it needs to be filtered by some kind of organism to use the magic system. First of the Sun has the Aviars eating the Invested worms and Ashyn has the Invested diseases (this was the part of Ashyn I wasn't sure is canon). It's that that makes me think that Taldain more resembles a Minor Shardworld because the lichen is what is Invested and as far as we know the Sand Master's aren't Invested personally but just have a Connection to the lichen somehow. 

[Scion of the Mists]

FWIW, here's how Brandon describes the difference between major and minor shardworlds:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor shard worlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a mistborn.

source

It's more about the strength of the magic, and how people interact with it.  Major shardworlds have big, flashy shows of magic (flying, fireballs, magic swords), while in minor shardworlds the magic is more of an environment.  

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Major Shardworlds have the users of Investiture be directly infused with it on some level.

This I agree with and understand. And it's why I still would count Taldain even if it only Avatars. Sand Mastery still channels investiture through the person. The strength is still determined by the user. 

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

On Minor Shardworlds though, it needs to be filtered by some kind of organism to use the magic system.

This is the part that I'm curious where you're getting it. Because that's not the way that I've ever understood the distinction. 

Quote

Already posted by Scion. 

 

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

While that is true, I still don't consider it the same. While Investiture responds to life, there is a difference between how the Investiture responds between Major and Minor Shardworlds. Major Shardworlds have the users of Investiture be directly infused with it on some level. On Minor Shardworlds though, it needs to be filtered by some kind of organism to use the magic system. First of the Sun has the Aviars eating the Invested worms and Ashyn has the Invested diseases (this was the part of Ashyn I wasn't sure is canon). It's that that makes me think that Taldain more resembles a Minor Shardworld because the lichen is what is Invested and as far as we know the Sand Master's aren't Invested personally but just have a Connection to the lichen somehow. 

I see what you're getting at.  On one hand, as others have posted there's WOB that the distinction has more to do with overall (narrative) power than anything specific with the method of accessing Investiture, to the point where some equivalent of the spren bond could be the method on either.  On the other hand, the minor shard-worlds still are, with an exception or two, examples of Magics that have developed entire absent a Shard's influence.  So flipping the cause/effect of the scenario, I could get behind a theory that Major Shardworlds (we're a bulk of Investiture is held by a Sentient Consciousness) have a tendency to effect sapient beings directly, while minor shardworlds with no Shard-Host influence permeate the ecosystem and seep into whatever various physical and cognitive aspect may be there naturally.  Because that sounds about right for a pre-shardic Stormlight ecosystem. 

 

General Question:  Any WOB on whether Roshar would have been considered a Major or Minor Shardworld pre-Honor/Cultivation immigration?

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

So how is the potential for Sand Mastery gained? Is it genetic? Triggered by something in the environment? Does everyone on the Dayside have Sand Mastery potential, and it's just a matter of training?

[StanLemon]

@Unlicensed Hemalurgist I'm waiting on the next volume of White Sand before I bring up my thoughts on that because the last one ended with Khriss wanting to be trained. What we know at least as far as that for sure though is that water is used to Connect with the sand and that Kenten believes that the story about the potential of Sand Mastery being predetermined is a lie. That is supported with his sudden increase of power (though he seems to hold on to potential biases by refusing to believe Khriss has the potential to use sand which may or may not be true). 

[Yata]

Taldian is surelly a major Shardworld for the raw amount of Investiture avaliable. Taldain is letherally in a constant sunbath of Investiture, probably on average Taldain is more Investiture richer than Roshar.