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Shallan - Like or Dislike?


maxal

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I was going through some parts of WoR when something hit me scare in the face... I am unsure as to weither I like or dislike Shallan as a character.

 

In WoK, I was ambivalent towards her. I could emphasize with some part of her: the young girl going into an impossible mission to save her family. However, I never could understand why she didn't try simple, blunt honnesty with Jasnah. That troubled me greatly. I understand why she planned to rob the soulcaster, however, once she found out Jasnah was a pretty decent person, she could just have told her the truth. No. With Shallan, it is always about lies.

 

In WoR, I was, at first, highly interested in her character development. How she went from being lost on this beach to being in charge of a whole caravan. I like how she used her skills and how she never gave up. I was thrilled how she managed to backslap Dalinar Kohlin and get her invited within Sebarial camp. I was a great moment for me. However, I was very perplex as to why she let Tyn teach her, why she even went for *that*. I was troubled she decided to investigate the Ghostblood. She could simply have come clean with the Kohlins and ask for their help. No, she had to invent this new persona and enter into a double life. By the end of re-read, I found I sort of disliked her. I do not like how she told Dalinar and Navani about her being a Radiant and not Adolin. I do not like how she uses him for her own purpose and more important, I do not like that she blames Pattern for her family's bad fortune. If someone is to blame, it is her mother. I sort of overlooked the part where she mentions her desire to kill Pattern on my first read.

 

Bottomline is I do not see Shallan going into a nice place. She is affiliated with the Ghostblood and I do not think she intend to come clean to Dalinar about it. She hates her spren. She uses her fiance to her own ends, obnoxious to the fact he actually likes her, for real. She lies about everything and I found I hate, absolutely hate that in a person.

 

How about you? How are you feeling about Shallan?

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I actually am rather fond of her, but being a redhead has something to do with it ;)

 

Beyond that though, I love her powers. Not so in-your-face like Kaladin's, but no less powerful, and I've always loved illusions. Not to mention she's also an artist - a kindred soul, so to speak. And the snark!

 

But the main reason I really enjoyed Shallan as a character was how she developed; from hesitant, frightened girl, she became a woman with poise and calm to match Jasnah's; she inspired slavers, deserters, potential rapists to be more than they were, to embrace the nobility that laid dormant within themselves. A true lightweaver if there ever were any.

 

Essentially, to me she represents the person I could be. Should strive to be. Minus the faith in the Almighty, that is. 

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Think your annoyance with her stems from where her story stopped in WoR. it is interesting that even though WoR was "Shallan's Book" she didn't get a complete character arc in WoR. Kaladin and Dalinar had far more complete character arcs.

 

Dalinar changed into his more administrative role in WoR and surprisingly became somewhat competent at it, though I think he has further to go on this journey. He also faced his brother's killer and realized their is nothing could have done to save him, completing that story arc. Both were issues that carried over from TWoKs, but at least one of them was completed in WoR.

 

Kaladin also had two issues carry over from TWoKs. His trust issues with Lighteyes in general and his personal issues with Amaram. The first character arc was completed and by the end he realized that some Lighteyed people are good people. The second is ongoing. Considering we have 3 to 8 more books to go with these characters this makes sense.   

 

Shallan came into WoR trying to figure out who she was. This was her ongoing conflict from TWoKs. She discovered many interesting things about herself. Considering she was still on a journey of self-discovery learning the arts of deception from a woman like Tyn is not surprising at all. It is a skill useful to Lightweavers so she would be drawn to naturally. At the end of WoR she finally has a big breakthrough, but not really a completion of her character arc.

 

Dalinar and Kaladin are solidifying. Dalinar is the admin and Kaladin is the leader of the vanguard. Shallan on the other hand is still liquid as a character. She ends WoR with her feet on two different paths, the path of a Radiant and the path the Ghostbloods wish to lead her down. She could go down a dark path and be the destroyer mentioned in the book description of TWoKs (Or maybe Dalinar was the destroyer because he pushed the Parshendi unto bringing about the everstorm but that is a discussion for another thread).

 

I like Shallan as a character. I'm not sure I would like her as a person. I suspected going into WoR that she was a mess and I was right. Other than finding Urthihu, she didn't complete any of her goals in WoR. That is a risky thing to do with a character as an author. You need to have fans who trust you enough to allow a story to stop without the satisfying ending until a later book. Shallan is not a character Sanderson could have written earlier in his career. I enjoy her, but I understand why other readers might not. 

 

If you have issues with her, for now take her as she is. I trust Sanderson will make the payoff satisfying.

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My objections below were ninja'd. I'll leave them here though.

Keep in mind that Shallan is basically coming from a backwater rural household and an abusive father. She has no confrontational bones in her body, and has a curious variety of single-mindedness. She herself acknowledges that talking to Jasnah would have been a better option, but in the moment I can understand her actions. As for WoR she accepts help as it comes, doing the only thing she actually can to glean things from Tyn and keep her from catching on and becoming dangerous. The fact that she actually enjoyed Tyn's lessons just reinforced her original decision. She investigated the Ghostbloods because she was pretty sure they knew nearly as much as Jasnah, and that they could be useful to her. They're dangerous people, but Shallan was willing to take the risk to carry on with Jasnah's research and goal. Not telling anybody else about being a Radiant is totally understandable, since they're hated by everybody who isn't Dalinar as far as she knows, and the fewer people who know about her illusions, the better.

 

Anyways, I think the main problem is that you seem the person who does not like liars, whereas I live with a bunch of compulsive liars and have grown up seeing it as somewhat endearing. I don't get people who hate Shallan, but hey, I can understand not liking her, even if I don't really see why.

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Shallan is awesome. I understand that people disagree with me, but they're also usually the ones who think that Kaladin's story arc in WoR was super-awesome-wonderful-best-thing-ever and so I don't really mind not understanding them.

 

Even though responding to your objections isn't going to change your opinion on her as a character, it might let you see her in a less unfavorable light. 

 

The reason she mentions hating Pattern is that if the bond with Pattern had never happened, she would have never killed her mother, her father wouldn't have become abusive, her life wouldn't have been destroyed.  But, at the same time, she doesn't really mean it.  NeutroniumAlchemist already said this, so I'm merely repeating, but still.  Maybe you've never said something that was a little bit true but a lot lie--I know I have.  Frequently. 

 

Actually, let's talk about those lies.  She grew up in a household with a father that became increasingly abusive over time, who also had a fair amount of legal control over every aspect of her life and the life of her brothers.  Growing up in an abusive house can mess you up something fierce; believe me.  Lies can become a kind of comfort, because they are a different world that you create to live inside, if only for a time, so that you're not just living in the same awful one all of the time.  However, focus on the type of lies she tells; she said that she would take care of pardons to the deserters, and she did.  She keeps her word about important things, and only lies about things that have little or no possibility of causing direct harm to others--when infiltrating Amaram's stronghold, she even goes out of her way to make sure the maid she's impersonating won't get into trouble!  She lies about who she is, and her motivations, but that's really about it.

 

She agreed to be taught by Tyn because it was the easier path, and diverted Tyn's attention away from her.  Actually, just everything Observer said regarding Ghostbloods and Tyn is absolutely spot-on, I'd say, so I won't bother repeating it.

 

Regarding not telling Adolin she's a Radiant--how should I explain this.  She likes him, and she thinks he likes her.  But it turns out that she has a power that's feared by the world.  The world.  What do you expect her to say?  "Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but I'm a Radiant, call me maybe?"  Chances are quite good their fledgling relationship would suffer.  To the exact same ends, why doesn't Kaladin tell anyone he's a Radiant?  He did his damnedest to hide it from Bridge Four for a long time, and then deliberately didn't tell or let anyone else know--for basically the exact same reasons.  And of course she's using her fiancé for her own reasons; she's been 100% up-front about it.  But that doesn't mean there isn't more to it than that.  It turns out people can have multiple motivations for a single act or action, with some of them being 'good' or 'pure' and others being 'selfish' or 'mean.' 

 

I don't see why you are upset that she won't be 'coming clean' about the Ghostbloods to Dalinar.  What would she 'come clean' about?  If she were going to, why would she confide in him?  It's not like the two of them have spent a great deal of time in each other's company; if anything, she should be telling Adolin about this.  Now then, what she should be doing at some point is letting everyone know about Amaram, but that's a different issue.  The Ghostbloods are a (admittedly dangerous) avenue to knowledge that would be impossible for her to get otherwise.  Mr T is willing to murder thousands for a few sentences that may or may not mean anything; Shallan is willing to spy on someone who seems to be working towards ending the world.  Also, ever heard the phrase "Keep my friends close, my enemies closer"?  They were responsible for killing Jasnah (as far as Shallan knows).  Finding out why is a very important task.  Both from Shallan's point of view, and mine (knowing that Gavilar thought the Ghostbloods were behind his assassination makes me want to know so much more about them.)

 

I think I've rambled on far too long anyway, but yeah--Shallan is my favorite character in the SA who isn't Stick or Lift.  If you can't stand that she uses lies as weapons to reveal or find the truth, that's your prerogative, and I won't judge you for it--but I will absolutely disagree with you that she's nothing but a selfish, self-centered liar (which is what your post seems to imply even if it doesn't straight up say it.)

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I was planning to write an insightful post on how much I like Shallan when I woke up, but now I come here and find that kaellok wrote almost everything I wanted to say (well, except the part about Lift and Stick, didn't liked them as much as the rest of the forum, apparently), so kudos to you!  :D

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Shallan's lies, I think, are a matter of perception. Remember what Pattern calls a 'lie'- euphemisms, idioms, sayings, compliments. Just about everything which isn't the absolute, literal truth. Shallan herself is an illusionist, and more importantly, has spent years dealing with an insanely messed up family. When you take that into consideration, it becomes less a matter of being secretive or deceptive "just because" and more that it's a fact of life for her. Her lies enabled her to survive with her mind intact, let her grow as a person, and she spends most of WoR trying to figure out who she is without a role to play.

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I enjoyed Shallan more than I expected to. I often skipped her chapters on rereads of TWoK. In WoR she became quite an enjoyable perspective. Her chapters were often dry, but you saw growth. Pattern kept them interesting. Also you would get bits of her humor here and there, not so much to become insipid. Her characters forced smile really is what differentiates her from Kaladin and the contrast to me is perfect. Yeah both had crappy lives, were both dragged through the crem, but she did as Lift said "show em some teeth."

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In WoR, I was, at first, highly interested in her character development. How she went from being lost on this beach to being in charge of a whole caravan. I like how she used her skills and how she never gave up. I was thrilled how she managed to backslap Dalinar Kohlin and get her invited within Sebarial camp. I was a great moment for me. However, I was very perplex as to why she let Tyn teach her, why she even went for *that*. I was troubled she decided to investigate the Ghostblood. She could simply have come clean with the Kohlins and ask for their help. No, she had to invent this new persona and enter into a double life. By the end of re-read, I found I sort of disliked her. I do not like how she told Dalinar and Navani about her being a Radiant and not Adolin. I do not like how she uses him for her own purpose and more important, I do not like that she blames Pattern for her family's bad fortune. If someone is to blame, it is her mother. I sort of overlooked the part where she mentions her desire to kill Pattern on my first read.

 

Bottomline is I do not see Shallan going into a nice place. She is affiliated with the Ghostblood and I do not think she intend to come clean to Dalinar about it. She hates her spren. She uses her fiance to her own ends, obnoxious to the fact he actually likes her, for real. She lies about everything and I found I hate, absolutely hate that in a person.

 

Commenting the likeability of fictional characters always gets weird. I find Shallan an interesting, sympathetic, and compelling character, but whether I'd actually like a flesh and blood Shallan standing in front of me without a narrative perspective on her thoughts and motivations isn't entirely clearcut. I think I might be put off by her facade of superficiality, and possibly feel intimidated by her artistic talent.

 

I really really enjoy Shallan's narrative arc and it's exploration of fiction, creativity, and truth. The interplay between fantasy and truth is something that has fascinated me as long as I can remember, and so I enjoyed seeing a reflection of that in the use of "truths" and "lies" and using the latter to expand the former. I think thinking of Shallan as a straight up "liar" is flawed, and takes the language of those seeking to discredit "liespren" too much at face value. Shallan's story, to me, is about the power of choosing your narrative and the interplay of truths filtered through perspective and experience.

 

To address some of your particular concerns, she "lets" Tyn teach her, because there really isn't much in the way of alternative. Tyn is clearly a dangerous and capable woman, and Shallan's grip on her soldiers is balanced on a mix of illusion, inspiration and desperation. To deny Tyn's offer of tutelage and assistance would open herself up to Tyn exposing and shattering her illusion, wrecking her chances of reaching the shattered plains. So she takes the opportunity to learn. Partly because it's fun, and she likes Tyn. Partly because it is useful to better learn how to present herself. Partly because she has to. It's worth noting, however, that Shallan resists Tyn's lessons in cynicism. It's something she's already learned, after all, and something she doesn't want. She knows the world is a cruel place, she's had ideals crushed, and she chooses to smile anyway.

 

As others have pointed out, she has very little reason to trust the Kholins without Jasnah, and she has very little reason to expect them to trust her. She also is trying to figure out who she is, and fears being protected and losing the independence she is just beginning to enjoy.  It would be wonderful if all the nice people would just talk openly and candidly with one another and put all their cards on the table. But it would be incredibly unrealistic for it to happen sooner than it does.

 

With the Ghostbloods, she had an opportunity drop into her lap to develop her understanding of her father, to learn more about Jasnah, and to gain knowledge to save the world. She's the only one who can really take advantage of it. Is she walking down a potentially dangerous path? Certainly. But she's doing it for good reasons. She wants to learn the truth, and she wants to use that knowledge to protect those she loves and save the world. I'm concerned for her, but we'll have to wait and see how she proceeds from here. She may not continue to keep the Ghostbloods a secret. The Ghostbloods are an elusive group, and it's likely that if she'd revealed them to the Kholins earlier most of the group would have managed to evade capture, and they would be left with no information.

 

There wasn't exactly time to have a heart to heart with Adolin when Shallan was coming forward about being a radiant. Shallan's been pretty upfront about her desires from her relationship with Adolin, and she is attracted to him, even if her affections may be getting directed elsewhere.

 

One could argue that Shallan's mother is to blame for her family's problems. One could also argue that if Pattern had never shown up, Shallan would have had a happy normal childhood. It's a complicated, emotionally fraught situation and one Shallan has been suffering under for most of her life. It's not reasonable of her to say she hates Pattern, but I suspect it's more an outburst at his forcing her to confront a horrific memory.  Expecting Shallan to just assign all the blame to her mother, who she loved and killed in self defense with Pattern's help, is also unreasonable.

 

Shallan certainly has flaws, and she has the potential to go very much astray from the knight radiant ideals, but I do like and admire her character and narrative arc. It's also perfectly fine for people to disagree!

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What I think is quite remarkable is that Pattern accepts her 'hatred', and his eventual 'death' by her breaking her vows, as just a side-effect of getting the chance to learn about the world and help her grow. Pattern might not have much of his memory back yet, but he's a strong character in his own right.

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I am not saying I do not enjoy reading about her as a character. She has some nice story arcs but, currently, I do not like where the character is going. I do not like this tendancy to always lie, to always layer the truth. I do not like that being an illusionist has to make you such a hypocryte person.

 

I understand some of the lies she told herself. The story of how she murdered her mother and then tried to make an illusion out of her life to save her brothers was very sad. I could relate to the small frightened girl who had to murder her father as well to save her brother. I can get why she hates Pattern althought he is not responsible. He is a gift. The mother was the culprit and she should hate someone, it should be her.

 

However, as the story progresses she changed. Yes, she was more confident, more poised, but also more deceiving. I felt, at the end, on the plateaus, that she was not forward enought with the Kohlins. First, she tells Navani about the Radiants, then Dalina, but not Adolin. Why not him? Because she has no use in him knowing. I felt she manipulated everyone to get to her goal, which fortunetaly was the same as the rest of the army, but how Shallan will react the day her "scholarship" goal does not fit with the big picture? I guess this is how I started to dislike her. Her comment to Pattern, at the end, was hard. I really like Pattern and I felt sorry he ended bonded to someone who blames him for her misfortune.

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You're still missing the point, maxal.  For one thing, how is she being a hypocrite?  As my favorite example, Kaladin is far more of a hypocrite: he hates the lighteyes because they treat all darkeyes poorly, simply because of their eye color--and yet he does exactly the same thing.  The one instance I can think of Shallan being a hypocrite is in the chapter Errogance in WoK, where Jasnah rightfully calls her out in exhibiting attributes that she dislikes in others.

 

Next, relationships with people are complicated.  I find people annoying.  ALL people.  My natural state is to be annoyed with everyone.  This doesn't mean that I don't like my friends.  I love my girlfriend and family probably 99% of the time.  But, there's still that little 1% in there, where sometimes no, I just don't.  Is that a good thing?  Probably not.  But ya know what?  There's people that I hate 99% of the time, too--but 1% of the time I don't.  No emotion of mine is absolute and pure, and so I don't expect others to have absolute emotions either.

 

Regarding the manipulation she has done, I again think you are being unfair.  Dalinar is responsible for far more manipulation, on a far grander scale than Shallan.  And you know what?  Neither of them are doing it for unfair, or illogical, or innately poor reasons.  The worst manipulation she actually does is against Sebrial, by setting her own generous salary--which she then works hard to justify, ending up being a net huge profit to him.  So, even in the cases where she is manipulating people, they end up better off for it.

 

I get that you don't like Shallan; after WoR, I don't like Kaladin much myself.  And I feel sorry for Syl.  Why?  Because Kaladin killed her.  Both of them have flaws, both of them are attempting to overcome them, and both are succeeding to a greater or lesser degree.  The kinds of responses you're wanting from Shallan only make sense from a third-person omniscient point of view; basically, if she could read minds, or know the intent and reasonings that the various Kholinar's have, and how they would react.  Such a demand is illogical; it's fine to have, but please do try to remember this when you're judging a character.  I have a hard time doing this with Kaladin in WoR, so please don't think that I'm just finding fault with you.  I identify very strongly with Shallan, for a huge number of reasons.  Kaladin?  Not as much.

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Alright, I surrender. I have no more arguments :ph34r:

 

I find her hypocrite because she always try to be someone else and not herself. I do not disagree at all of her manipulation of Sebarial or in the caravan. I thought it was awesome. I disagree with how she always try to hide herself being some image and I find that unnerving. I liked her better in WoK.

 

I agree that all characters have flaws. Kaladin had his annoying moments and his paranioia against ligtheyes was tiring. However, I found I could relate more about Kaladin's angst than Shallan's lies.

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To me, Shallan's lies basically represent part of who she is. Note that the Lightweavers didn't believe in sole unvarnished truth- they were also pretty dang good liars. Shallan's a compulsive liar, but she has good reason to be, noting her traumatic childhood and the really hairy situations she's gotten into during the course of WoR.

 

I first really started to like Shallan when she started drawing pictures of a woman in all sorts of different situations, then added her own face to them. Why? Because I believe that that sort of thing can become true. Shallan begins to see what being a Lightweaver is all about: weaving such a good lie that it becomes truth. Her personas when dealing with other people did not seem fake to me; rather, they seemed to be different parts of herself. She notes before meeting Dalinar for the first time that if she had not been raised in an abusive household, this is the woman she might have become, so she'll be that woman. I find that an excellent example of what I'm talking about. 

 

All in all, I am completely fine with Shallan reinventing herself, so long as she remains grounded to her true personality. However, I'm sure that if she tried to completely detach from herself, her bond with Pattern would wither and die, so I think we're good on that ground.

 

Also, kaellok, I am apparently one of those rare people who loved both Kaladin's and Shallan's character arcs. They were both amazing and realistic depictions on how to deal with significant trauma. I'm glad that we can all choose to respectfully disagree. :)

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I despised her in WoK. In reread I skipped her and felt it improved the book in ever way. Early in WoR my dislike like of her hurt my enjoyment of the book but she grew on me throughout the book and by the end I enjoyed her PoVs as much as any. I don't know if the improvement is from learning more about her, Pattern constantly calling her a liar, the service she did by introducing Stick or FeatherWriters reactions in the splintercast but I'm glad she grew on me as she would be much harder to skip in this book.

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Alright, I surrender. I have no more arguments :ph34r:

 

I find her hypocrite because she always try to be someone else and not herself. I do not disagree at all of her manipulation of Sebarial or in the caravan. I thought it was awesome. I disagree with how she always try to hide herself being some image and I find that unnerving. I liked her better in WoK.

 

I agree that all characters have flaws. Kaladin had his annoying moments and his paranioia against ligtheyes was tiring. However, I found I could relate more about Kaladin's angst than Shallan's lies.

I guess I don't think there's a problem with trying to be someone better than you currently are rather than being yourself when A) You don't know who you are, and B) You believe that your true self is an emotionally traumatized child who just curls up and cries. Shallan uses the various images to explore herself, and to explore her options. She uses her illusions to support her projection of herself in an attempt to figure out who she is and what she is capable of and to accomplish her goals. She looks at Shallan-as-she-could-have-been and chooses to be that person. She even notices that Veil is basically Shallan-with-dark-hair and the freedom of movement that that gives her. She tries pretending she's someone she isn't with Adolin, and starts to discover that she can't maintain it, and that he actually enjoys her real self.

 

Jasnah talks at the beginning about how much of power and authority is an illusion. Shallan uses actual illusions to help support her power and authority, and she discovers that as she acts more confident, she grows into that. She uses them to make people pay attention to her and take her seriously. I really don't see anything hypocritical about that.

 

I actually feel like at the end she's much more honest. She talks to Navani about research, to the others about the Knights Radiant. She's upfront about what she wants and why. It's not like anyone had a ton of time for sitting around and spelling everything out to each other, and just because the book ended doesn't mean that Shallan's explanations did as well. Though they kind of have bigger concerns. It's not like she's out to deceive Adolin or hide it from him, she's just focused on trying to save the world. She confronts a major truth about her past, and she also has her deception of the ghostbloods ended.

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I wasn't trying to make you give up or go away, maxal, and I apologize if you think I was.  I was just trying to help you understand her character better, so that you can get more enjoyment out of the books.  I felt at least as strongly against Kaladin as you do against Kaladin for quite some time after reading WoR, to the point that I literally thought the book was better to have a good 50% of his PoV chapters removed (or more).  I spent a lot of time yelling and arguing in a couple different forums about how much I didn't like him, but other people offering explanations let me appreciate him as a character more--that's all I was trying to do for you.

 

Sanderson has done a rather phenomenal job in WoR with presenting broken and flawed characters that can still be sympathetic or relatable while also behaving in incredibly believable ways.  I've definitely enjoyed the discussion that you started, even if I disagree with you, and I would hope you could say the same.

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Meh, don't feel bad. If anybody started a "I don't like Kaladin" thread, all of his fans would come out of the wood works and compare him to the horrible Shallan in how awesome he is. :P

I agree that I don't 'like' her as a character as much, compared to some of the other people. But I'll wait and see a few more books before I make any final judgements. Just as long as she doesn't start wearing a braid and tugging on it, we should be fine though.

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Meh, don't feel bad. If anybody started a "I don't like Kaladin" thread, all of his fans would come out of the wood works and compare him to the horrible Shallan in how awesome he is. :P

I agree that I don't 'like' her as a character as much, compared to some of the other people. But I'll wait and see a few more books before I make any final judgements. Just as long as she doesn't start wearing a braid and tugging on it, we should be fine though.

 

Or Surgebind only when she's angry :P

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I never did understand all the hate Nynaeve gets when there's Elayne around.  I mean, sure, her personality turned into just two specific actions/reactions/whatever, but that's still more personality than Elayne  :P

 

I like Nynaeve. And Aviendha. I dislike Elayne and Egwene though, very, very bland characters. 

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