Theory: The Seventeenth Shard are separate

[Cheese Ninja]

Hoid does have a track record of showing up right in the middle of things, and he has helped out certain characters before. I also seem to recall that in the first draft of well of ascension, his footprints are what lead vin to the well. But overall, I think Hoid can be safely said to be doing something that is good. Whether or not he'll do bad things to get there is questionable.

Actually it looks like it's his footprint by the Lerasium.

http://brandonsanderson.com/library/39/Mistborn-2-Alternate-Ending-Part-Two

It leaned over. Vin knelt, feeling where it gestured. There, in the frost, she thought she made out the distinct impression of a footprint. But that was impossible. Did the Spirit make it? She wondered. But that was the print of a boot.

She glanced at it, feeling around. Her fingers brushed something. A piece of ceramic, but one that wasn't broken. She picked it up, standing; it looked like a disk, and was set at the very center with what appeared to be a tiny nugget of metal.

Which makes me wonder if Hoid took a nugget of Lerasium for himself as well. If he has some power from each of the shards, maybe he'll be strong enough to defeat Odium, if that's his goal. Or he could try making a mini-Adonalsium. Not too sure what he'd do with Odium's shard though, Splinter it, maybe? He knows better than to try holding it without also holding its opposite, if it has one. (Love, I'd guess.)

[Guest Jacob Santos]

I thought I would be brillaint and say Sazed. However, that theory has been cut to ribbons it seems. The simplest explanation then is a being we haven't yet discovered.

I do like the theory that the 17th Shard is us.

[darniil]

I do like the theory that the 17th Shard is us.

<pedantic>

We are. The group in the books is the Seventeenth Shard.

</pedantic>

[lauren.e135]

I agree with Mad_Scientist. From the wording of the letter it would seem that whomever is being addressed is in some way or another in charge of the 17th Shard.

What I wonder is if the Person Being Addressed is so intent on not intervening why would he create/lead a group such as the 17th Shard? Seems like someone who isn't afraid of intervening would do.

[Thor]

I agree with Mad_Scientist. From the wording of the letter it would seem that whomever is being addressed is in some way or another in charge of the 17th Shard.

What I wonder is if the Person Being Addressed is so intent on not intervening why would he create/lead a group such as the 17th Shard? Seems like someone who isn't afraid of intervening would do.

It could be that the PBA feels that using his/her power directly is intervening but helping out some poor scrubs find their way in the Universe (and asking them to run some side jobs on the way) isn't. Think Sazed in AoL: he won't overtly help you (smashing Miles into pulp) but he will give you hints/ideas and the occasionally physical help, either by doing it himself or sending a messenger.

[Wispsy]

perhaps its someone who has a strict non-interference policy and they use the 17th shard to try and keep check on people interfering when they dont think they should be! (ye i know its kinda contradictory but happens alot!)

[lauren.e135]

It could be that the PBA feels that using his/her power directly is intervening but helping out some poor scrubs find their way in the Universe (and asking them to run some side jobs on the way) isn't. Think Sazed in AoL: he won't overtly help you (smashing Miles into pulp) but he will give you hints/ideas and the occasionally physical help, either by doing it himself or sending a messenger.

Good point.

So are we thinking PBA is another shard? Or someone like Hoid?

[pmj812]

If PBA were a Shard, one of two things is true:

1) Their consciousness is dominated by the Shard's intent,

2) Or they're very new to holding it.

Since the Sazed theory has been discounted, I'd lean away from a PBA Shard... because Hoid would know better than to even attempt to dissuade a Shard... Ruin couldn't be reasoned with. I expect the same of the other Shards unless they're just as new as Sazed.

Furthermore:

Hoid can use Shadesmar to travel between worlds. This presents its own questions.

-Do the 17th travel the same way?

-Do they know that he travels this way?

We only see 3 members at the Purelake. Is this because...

-17th is a very small group?

-They're spread out across Roshar?

-They're looking for Hoid on multiple planets?

Finally, I propose that we can narrow the 17th's HQ (presuming it has one in the physical realm) to Sel or an unpublished world.

-17th need a method of either interstellar travel or inter-realm travel.

-SA is supposedly concurrent with MB 2nd trilogy, which in turn is supposed to be at a roughly contemporary level of technology, suggesting that the Scadrians haven't mastered interstellar travel yet.

-We've been given a somewhat thorough accounting of the metallic arts, and they don't seem to include a portal to Shadesmar

-if they were from Roshar we wouldn't expect them to use 3 foreigners to search for Hoid

-Awakening doesn't seem like it would have any realm-travel applications

That leaves Sel (where we know both magic arts can manage some form of teleportation), or a place we haven't been yet.

[happyman]

If PBA were a Shard, one of two things is true:

1) Their consciousness is dominated by the Shard's intent,

2) Or they're very new to holding it.

Since the Sazed theory has been discounted, I'd lean away from a PBA Shard... because Hoid would know better than to even attempt to dissuade a Shard... Ruin couldn't be reasoned with. I expect the same of the other Shards unless they're just as new as Sazed.

I don't believe the PBA holds a Shard, simply because the letter seems to be more a discussion between equals than a human approaching a god, however anthropomorphic the god may be or powerful the human may be. On the point of the Shards and Intent, though, the minds may be molded to their shard's intent, but I'm not certain how they would react to issues that are not related to their intent. I'm guessing that in those directions, they maintain their free will to an extent. It's like, the power may force their mind to stick in a particular plane, but they can move around within that plane freely. If the PBA holds a Shard that isn't related to Noninterference (dubious because I don't think he holds a shard at all), noninterference might be a choice.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Here is an interesting quote regarding Hoid's presence on Roshar, when he was speaking to Kaladin in tWoK:

. “I have no answers for you. Most days, I feel I never have had any answers. I’ve come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.”

I wonder if he is talking about PBA here? If so that could change who and what we're looking for, perhaps the leader of the 17th Shard is traveling to worlds in order to set up these secret societies we keep see popping up (the Set, the Ghostbloods, the Dahkor (I think they're secret enough))

Given the PBA's non-interference though this quote from one of the Ghostbloods is interesting. Is maintaining stability the opposite of non-interference?

“Stability. Those you killed were among the most powerful and influential men in Roshar.”

I also want to know how Hoid and subsequently Elantrians used the Shadesmar to leave Sel, given that Brandon has said "Do not go to Shadesmar on this world (really, I'm not kidding)"

Obviously we see that happened because Hoid got out and Galladon shows up on Roshar almost a millenium after the events in Elantris (we know that Warbreaker/AoL happen at the roughly same time, and that is 341 years after HoA, and tWoK is hundreds of years after Warbreaker in the chronology)

Edited November 19, 2011 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Hi, I'm new to the forums but not to Brandon's extraordinary work, so forgive me if this has been addressed, but do we have any concrete proof that Galladon and co from WoK are actually members of the 17th Shard? I know that members are looking for Hoid, and that Galladon is looking for Hoid, but what if Galladon is looking for Hoid for a completely different reason, maybe the reason you shouldn't travel to Shadesmar on Sel? Galladon was always a good guy, and Hoid is a good guy, and perhaps this is biased of me, but I don't like the thought of them being on opposite teams.

[happyman]

Hi, I'm new to the forums but not to Brandon's extraordinary work, so forgive me if this has been addressed, but do we have any concrete proof that Galladon and co from WoK are actually members of the 17th Shard? I know that members are looking for Hoid, and that Galladon is looking for Hoid, but what if Galladon is looking for Hoid for a completely different reason, maybe the reason you shouldn't travel to Shadesmar on Sel? Galladon was always a good guy, and Hoid is a good guy, and perhaps this is biased of me, but I don't like the thought of them being on opposite teams.

It's been mooted. It's possible, but generally considered unlikely. My basic argument is that there can't be that many planet-hoppers chasing Hoid around. Until we get further evidence, Occam's razor strongly suggests that Galladon is part of the 17th Shard, and that they are looking for Hoid.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Duly noted, and I understand, but with all due respect, this IS Brandon Sanderson we are talking about. Occam's Razor doesn't seem to be something he is big on. Either way, its something I look forward to finding out, and the man cannot write fast enough for me!

[ReaderAt2046]

It occurs to me that if Hoid were a member of the 17th shard, he would refer to them as "our friends," not "your friends." That said, he could have had a falling out or something.

He might have been writing to his replacement as head of the 17th Shard. Also, I think we can be pretty sure that Hoid either was part of the 17th Shard or was at least on good terms with them during AoL. Otherwise, Joshin and Mi'chelle would have tried to arrest/kill/something him.

[Windrunner]

He might have been writing to his replacement as head of the 17th Shard. Also, I think we can be pretty sure that Hoid either was part of the 17th Shard or was at least on good terms with them during AoL. Otherwise, Joshin and Mi'chelle would have tried to arrest/kill/something him.

Wait Lord Joshin and Lady Michelle are worldhoppers? I thought that they were just tributes to Josh and Mi'chelle as founders to this site and everything. Could you show me the quote or post where we find this out, because I though they were just a regular Lord and Lady on Scadrial?

[CrazyRioter]

M'chelle came up with backstory for her namesake that she was originally from Nalthis. Joshin is a Scadrial native though.

[Zas678]

Maybe that's WHY he's not leader anymore- he helped Mi'chelle marry the man she loved while the Big Bad Organization wanted her to "not interfere". Hoid was like "Psh, screw this!" and smuggled her in to Scadrial- where she then had the wedding/gunfight of the year.

[Dros]

I've got a theory, forgive me if it's already been communicated and also for basically piggy-backing off everybody else's research.

By the very name Seventeenth Shard, it can be assumed the organization has a more intimate knowledge of Shards and their holders. From the letter we know they have a policy of non-intervention. Presumably that is in reference to direct conflicts between Shards.

In his letter, Hoid writes:

the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here.

He calls it "our war", not their war or the war, but our war. My theory is that Hoid is going to intervene in a conflict between Shards in an overt, direct way. He has a plan to physically engage either Odium or another as of yet identified Shard or diety in the war coming to Roshar. Apparently he believes the Everstorm, or Last Desolation, is a far greater threat to the Universe than just wiping out life on Roshar.

The Seveteenth Shard has a policy of non-intervention, so naturally they want to stop him from engaging a Shard, or Shards, in direct conflict.

Now this assumes a great amount of power inherent in Hoid, who I believe it has been proven to not have a Shard.

Thoughts?

[ReaderAt2046]

M'chelle came up with backstory for her namesake that she was originally from Nalthis. Joshin is a Scadrial native though.

I assumed Joshin was a sort of auxillary sharder.

[Emeralis00]

He calls it "our war", not their war or the war, but our war. My theory is that Hoid is going to intervene in a conflict between Shards in an overt, direct way. He has a plan to physically engage either Odium or another as of yet identified Shard or diety in the war coming to Roshar. Apparently he believes the Everstorm, or Last Desolation, is a far greater threat to the Universe Cosmere than just wiping out life on Roshar.

Fixed it for you.

[CrazyRioter]

I assumed Joshin was a sort of auxillary sharder.

well he might be, depending on how much his wife decided to tell him.

[little wilson]

I realize I'm two years late in saying this, but Chaos, you never took my powers from me. I still hold Preservation. One need only look to the TWG archives at my title to see proof of what I say. (Did you see what I did there?)...Hm. Maybe I should change my title here to reflect such truths. Seems only right.

Also, I like this idea of us being the fabled 17th Shard. World-hoppers extraordinaire. Yes. Makes perfect sense.

Also also, what happens when the PBA gets Hoid's letter and alerts Galladon, Demoux, and He-Who-We-Know-Not-The-Name-Of that they're chasing a fake trail? Perhaps this is why he left the Shattered Plains so suddenly. To set a new false trail, so those looking for him won't find where he really truly is....

Edited December 29, 2012 by little wilson

[Asperity]

I've got a theory, forgive me if it's already been communicated and also for basically piggy-backing off everybody else's research.

By the very name Seventeenth Shard, it can be assumed the organization has a more intimate knowledge of Shards and their holders. From the letter we know they have a policy of non-intervention. Presumably that is in reference to direct conflicts between Shards.

In his letter, Hoid writes:

He calls it "our war", not their war or the war, but our war. My theory is that Hoid is going to intervene in a conflict between Shards in an overt, direct way. He has a plan to physically engage either Odium or another as of yet identified Shard or diety in the war coming to Roshar. Apparently he believes the Everstorm, or Last Desolation, is a far greater threat to the Universe than just wiping out life on Roshar.

The Seveteenth Shard has a policy of non-intervention, so naturally they want to stop him from engaging a Shard, or Shards, in direct conflict.

Now this assumes a great amount of power inherent in Hoid, who I believe it has been proven to not have a Shard.

Thoughts?

For some reason, with all the talk about Hoid being so powerful, I wonder if artificial shards exist.

[CabbageHead]

Okay, let's assume two things here, that haven't been falsified yet:

1. Hoid wrote the letter in Way of Kings

2. Elantrians or someone from Sel is on Roshar looking for Hoid

Given those two hypotheses, this has a curious consequence. Follow me here.

If Elantrians are on Roshar, looking for Hoid, this means that some Elantrians make up the Seventeenth Shard. Perhaps exclusively populated by Elantrians; doesn't really matter. Either way, this means the Seventeenth Shard's members are much, much younger than Hoid and whoever he is talking to. After all, Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. People like Raoden, obviously, weren't.

So, this means that Hoid and some other person, separate from the Seventeenth Shard, but friends of them, know who Ati, Rayse, Bavadin, and these other Shardholders are. But the Seventeenth Shard might not have this knowledge.

Certainly, this would makes sense. If the Seventeenth Shard don't have this knowledge (probably because of the letter's addressee's policy of nonintervention), then they can't help but be misguided.

Thoughts?

The real question, perhaps, is who Hoid's letter is addressed to.

I'm wondering if the answer is in another of your threads, Clues in signed things. The reference to the PBA as an "old reptile" at first made me think of someone who was cold-blooded, or if I was in a more fanciful mood, a dragon. But a Shard who "just wants to hide and survive" makes me think of a chameleon, and would certainly be rather non-interventionist.

[11thorderknight]

Thoughts on Hoid's letter and the 17th sharders:

1. Hoid is on Roshar. He is writing a letter. As far as we know, there is no interplanetary postal service. Ergo, the PBA is also on Roshar.

2. PBA knows the original Shardholders as people, pre-ascension. Ergo, PBA is OLD.

3. PBA has the capacity to significantly affect the outcome of the coming war. Ergo, PBA is powerful.

4. There were three shards on Roshar to start, but Odium splintered Honor. He also took a trip to another planet to splinter two other shards. However, as best we know, he did not touch Cultivation, who is on his home planet.

5. Could Hoid be addressing Cultivation?