Theory: The Seventeenth Shard are separate

[Chaos]

Okay, let's assume two things here, that haven't been falsified yet:

1. Hoid wrote the letter in Way of Kings

2. Elantrians or someone from Sel is on Roshar looking for Hoid

Given those two hypotheses, this has a curious consequence. Follow me here.

If Elantrians are on Roshar, looking for Hoid, this means that some Elantrians make up the Seventeenth Shard. Perhaps exclusively populated by Elantrians; doesn't really matter. Either way, this means the Seventeenth Shard's members are much, much younger than Hoid and whoever he is talking to. After all, Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. People like Raoden, obviously, weren't.

So, this means that Hoid and some other person, separate from the Seventeenth Shard, but friends of them, know who Ati, Rayse, Bavadin, and these other Shardholders are. But the Seventeenth Shard might not have this knowledge.

Certainly, this would makes sense. If the Seventeenth Shard don't have this knowledge (probably because of the letter's addressee's policy of nonintervention), then they can't help but be misguided.

Thoughts?

The real question, perhaps, is who Hoid's letter is addressed to.

[Zas678]

We call the addressee Alavanta from what Grump says "What a fool's quest this is. Alavanta kamaloo kayana." I know that is very likely not it, but it's a name that we can agree on that will make it so we aren't calling him "Addressee".

Anywho, maybe Alavanta isn't as much against intervention as we think he is. Or maybe Hoid interferes more than we realize.

[Shivertongue]

I think it's kind of interesting how we always assume Hoid is up to something good...

[Chaos]

I think it's kind of interesting how we always assume Hoid is up to something good...

Well, I know why I think that is Tee hee.

But come on. Some reviews of Way of Kings complain that the characters are too noble all the time. I can't seriously consider anything about Hoid otherwise without significant evidence on that side.

We call the addressee Alavanta from what Grump says "What a fool's quest this is. Alavanta kamaloo kayana." I know that is very likely not it, but it's a name that we can agree on that will make it so we aren't calling him "Addressee".

Anywho, maybe Alavanta isn't as much against intervention as we think he is. Or maybe Hoid interferes more than we realize.

Are you sure Alavanta is a name? Could just be the first word of the sentence, and does not need to be a name.

[leinton]

Doesn't kayama mean crazy or something like that? I figured he was saying something like "This is crazy..."

And speaking of your knowledge, isn't there an interview that's supposed to go up sometime soon, Chaos? 

[Chaos]

Doesn't kayama mean crazy or something like that? I figured he was saying something like "This is crazy..."

And speaking of your knowledge, isn't there an interview that's supposed to go up sometime soon, Chaos? 

Soooon, yes

[Zas678]

I think it's kind of interesting how we always assume Hoid is up to something good...

Well, I know why I think that is Tee hee.

But come on. Some reviews of Way of Kings complain that the characters are too noble all the time. I can't seriously consider anything about Hoid otherwise without significant evidence on that side.

We call the addressee Alavanta from what Grump says "What a fool's quest this is. Alavanta kamaloo kayana." I know that is very likely not it, but it's a name that we can agree on that will make it so we aren't calling him "Addressee".

Anywho, maybe Alavanta isn't as much against intervention as we think he is. Or maybe Hoid interferes more than we realize.

Are you sure Alavanta is a name? Could just be the first word of the sentence, and does not need to be a name.

Nope. Not sure at all. But it kinda makes sense. The sentence could mean "Alavanta is crazy." Or Alavanta could be 'this' or it could be 'Roamer', or anything. It just seems a namey kinda word.

[Andrew the Great]

Hoid does have a track record of showing up right in the middle of things, and he has helped out certain characters before. I also seem to recall that in the first draft of well of ascension, his footprints are what lead vin to the well. But overall, I think Hoid can be safely said to be doing something that is good. Whether or not he'll do bad things to get there is questionable.

[mycoltbug]

Ok I have done some heavy on the things in the interludes, what we know of Hoid, and Hoids comments.  I have a theory and wanted to see what you all thought.

Hoid once was a member of leader of the 17th Shard but grew worried over their determination of gathering all the shards back together and putting Adonalsium back together.  So he left the group in attempt to see what Shards still existed and their control over the planets they were on. He suspects that putting Adonalsium back together could destroy the magic system/lives of many planets so believes it's an evil thing they are doing. 

Feel free to prove me wrong, but that seems more of his reasoning and sounds Hoidish. 

[Andrew the Great]

What makes you think Hoid's trying to keep Adonalsium from being put back together? The only thing I can think of either way on that is when he's talking to Dalinar about Adonalsium, and there really isn't much either way to tell what he thinks on the subject of putting Adonalsium back together.

I can definitely see him being an ex-member of the 17th shard. However, based on the fact that they're looking for him (and it doesn't seem like it's just like "Hey, one of our group left. Let's go hunt him down!"), it makes sense that he knows something that they don't, so in order for that to work, he would have had to have learned something important after leaving the 17th shard, and they have to know that. It makes more sense, in my opinion, for him to just be independent of the organization, with them having knowledge of him, but not what he knows. If that makes sense.

And I don't know that Hoid would see the absence of magic as an evil thing. The only difference in the lives of the characters would come from a lack of magic. So what would the effects be on each world with a lack of magic? Elantrians would stop being Elantrians, but they've all lived normal lives before, and I don't think it would be too difficult of an adjustment for them. No more mistings or Mistborn, but then again, have we actually seen them used for anything other than assassination? Allomancers are handy in a fight, and I guess if you're trying to manipulate people's emotions, but I don't know that seeing them go would be a bad thing for Scadrial. Nalthis.....that's an interesting case, there. Awakening is VERY integrated into society. A lot of people would have to get used to not having Lifeless anymore, and with no more Returned, Halladren (I think that's the name of the city......it's been too long since I read warbreaker) would have to find itself a new method of rule.

None of these things are necessarily terrible effects, though, and I don't think that Hoid would see them as evil. Also, it's entirely possible that putting Adonalsium back together wouldn't destroy the magic systems - we just don't know.

Personally, I think it's more likely that Hoid's playing the role of Shard Police, and just trying to make sure that none of the people holding Shards get too power-happy. "Oh, look, I'm like a God now! Let's go blow some stuff up!" It seems to fit with what we've seen so far, what with him helping out in Mistborn to take out Ruin (though apparently it all takes place behind the scenes). Admittedly, I have no idea why he's on either Sel or Nalthis, though I suppose it's possible he's just checking on the Shards there.

And that about sums up my thoughts, incoherent as they are at the moment.

[Chaos]

If he was an ex-member of the Seventeenth Shard, he could have been the founder. It's pretty obvious he had information long before that organization appeared (under the assumption some Elantrians are Sharders), and he probably wouldn't have told them everything.

[Andrew the Great]

It occurs to me that if Hoid were a member of the 17th shard, he would refer to them as "our friends," not "your friends." That said, he could have had a falling out or something.

[Munin]

If Elantrians are on Roshar, looking for Hoid, this means that some Elantrians make up the Seventeenth Shard. Perhaps exclusively populated by Elantrians; doesn't really matter. Either way, this means the Seventeenth Shard's members are much, much younger than Hoid and whoever he is talking to. After all, Hoid was there when Adonalsium was shattered. People like Raoden, obviously, weren't.

Younger than Hoid, certainly.

But keep in mind that Elantrians are immortal. For all that we know, WoK takes place a billion years after Elantris.

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but it is something to consider.

[Andrew the Great]

It would certainly relieve the issue of planet hopping as well, as they could just use space travel instead of having the added condition that they know how to use Shadesmar to planet hop.

That said, if I had to guess, since Brandon's books so far I believe were published in roughly chronological order (and I'm not sure why I believe this.... there could be a quote, or it could just be me making this up), we're not such a terribly long time after the events of warbreaker, which took place not so long after mistborn, which took place not so long after elantris.

[Zas678]

I don't know. It might be after Warbreaker, but I don't think it's after Mistborn. Two shards reconnecting and getting a host would seem to be the thing that Hoid would mention in a letter.

EDIT- And I think Elantris 2 may be before Way of Kings. There are some people in the interlude that have either changed, or are new characters that will be in Elantris 2. Plus, what would Elantris 2 be like without Galladon?

[Munin]

I don't know. It might be after Warbreaker, but I don't think it's after Mistborn. Two shards reconnecting and getting a host would seem to be the thing that Hoid would mention in a letter.

Personally, I think the way that the letter refers to Ati means it IS after Mistborn.

It says "what became of him". Not "what he became". And keep in mind that before the events of Mistborn, Ruin's actions were limited to... changing some prophecies. Not really noteworthy, in my opinion.

[Deano Stormblessed]

I don't know. It might be after Warbreaker, but I don't think it's after Mistborn. Two shards reconnecting and getting a host would seem to be the thing that Hoid would mention in a letter.

Personally, I think the way that the letter refers to Ati means it IS after Mistborn.

It says "what became of him". Not "what he became". And keep in mind that before the events of Mistborn, Ruin's actions were limited to... changing some prophecies. Not really noteworthy, in my opinion.

Just to clear things up, I read somewhere (probably on someones blog) that Brandon himself said that the events occur in the order the books have been published. That means that Elantris is first, followed by mistborn then warbreaker and finally WoK. How far apart they are is anyones guess.

Does anyone know the exact quote from the interview/Q&A or whatever it came from?

[Andrew the Great]

I don't know the exact quote, but I remember hearing him say the same thing, so wherever it came from, I was there/listened to the recording. That still leaves a whole bunch of options, but just the fact that I also remember it should at least provide some additional verification. Though of course there's always the possibility that I'm just delusional and making things up. It has been known to happen....

[Deano Stormblessed]

I don't know the exact quote, but I remember hearing him say the same thing, so wherever it came from, I was there/listened to the recording. That still leaves a whole bunch of options, but just the fact that I also remember it should at least provide some additional verification. Though of course there's always the possibility that I'm just delusional and making things up. It has been known to happen....

Join the club. Do it all the time...

[Chaos]

I'm probably a source for that, unless he's said it at other signings. I've been revealing information from our 17th Shard interview with Brandon which has still yet to be edited. He revealed that information in that interview.

Soon. For reals, it will be up.

I don't know. It might be after Warbreaker, but I don't think it's after Mistborn. Two shards reconnecting and getting a host would seem to be the thing that Hoid would mention in a letter.

EDIT- And I think Elantris 2 may be before Way of Kings. There are some people in the interlude that have either changed, or are new characters that will be in Elantris 2. Plus, what would Elantris 2 be like without Galladon?

He said that for now, they are in chronological order. We've skipped books, however, so eventually we will fill in the gaps, and they won't be chronological any longer.

[leinton]

Soon. For reals, it will be up.

For REALS???

Also, Hoid might find it redundant to talk about Sazed holding both Preservation and Ruin. It's quite possibly common knowledge among people like Hoid.

[KChan]

The way Hoid refers to the Seventeenth Shard certainly doesn't imply to me that he was ever a part of them at all, or even had all that much to do with them other than the fact that they're trying to find him for some reason. He speaks of them in almost a dismissive or diminutive way, as though he either doesn't take them very seriously, or just doesn't consider them a very big threat. They seem to be more of an annoyance to him than anything else, though he seemed to enjoy sending them on a false trail.

What's interesting to me, however, is how he mentioned that the Seventeenth Shard were off chasing him somewhere else, yet here we find natives of Sel (possibly Elantrians, or at the very least, one Dula and two characters of unknown ethnicity and origin) on Scadrial and hunting Hoid down.

There are a couple options for this: either Hoid was wrong and Seventeenth Shard didn't follow his trail, the trail did take them to Roshar (but to the wrong place), or the Dula's group are an entirely separate party from 17th Shard altogether.

Going back to the original point of this thread though, I think it's pretty clear that whatever the Seventeenth Shard wants with Hoid, they are neither Shardholders, nor was Hoid ever a part of their group.

[leinton]

It could also mean that his false trail was simply a trail that was on Roshar, but nowhere near the Shattered Plains. Perhaps they know he's on Roshar, and when Hoid realized that, he made it look like he was in some random country (I don't have my book, so I forget where they are looking).

[KChan]

Which was the second possibility out of the three I listed. Either way, they're at the Purelake when we meet them in the interludes.

[leinton]

Ah, my bad. Must have skimmed over that.