Lightweavers are Not Liars

[Confused]

I’ve noticed several posts that question why the second attribute of Lightweavers is honesty. These posts point out that Shallan has truthfulness issues and that Pattern is described as a “liespren.”

 

LIghtweavers are not liars, they just have an artist’s sensibility and vision. Artists see things that others miss. They see the “deeper truths” within the lie, the truths that lies illuminate.

 

That’s why when Shallan draws the deserters, she makes them stalwart, noble and brave – how they perceived themselves when they were still soldiers. And since Transformation is one of her Lightweaver surges, the deserters actually rise to the image she draws of them, becoming what she sees. (This may become a problem later on for Shallan as Veil…)

 

Shallan’s personal self-deception and truthfulness issues (both of which she’s working toward overcoming by book’s end) are really beside the point. It’s her honesty at rendering perception into reality that makes her a Lightweaver.

[MistLord]

Reinforce this with the fact that Shallash's (the Lightweaver herald) divine attribute is creativity and honesty, I strongly believe that this is the case as well. 

[Kasimir]

Quote

LIghtweavers are not liars, they just have an artist’s sensibility and vision. Artists see things that others miss. They see the “deeper truths” within the lie, the truths that lies illuminate.

I do agree with that. Furthermore, in support of what you've laid out, we have what Hoid tells Shallan in the Middlefest chapter:

Quote

“I see,” the messenger said softly. “You do not yet understand the nature of lies. I had that trouble myself, long ago. The Shards here are very strict. You will have to see the truth, child, before you can expand upon it. Just as a man should know the law before he breaks it.”

(p. 1174 in my Kindle copy but it is weird)

But I think there's something else about the Lightweaver's that's beautiful: in seeing and bringing forth the "deeper truths' in the lie, they have the ability to make them real. It seems to be Illumination melded with Transformation at a deeper level: in her drawings, she illuminates these deeper truths, brings them to the surface, and transforms people in the process.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kasimir

[Numb]

I don't think it's right to call them liars but I also don't think it's right to not call them liars. They merely seem able to make the lies into reality. 

[Aleksiel]

How does Shallan's making the illusion of being Amaram fit into this? 

[Kasimir]

Off the top of my head, I would read it exactly the way we read Kaladin using Stormlight to practise using his Gravitation surge in the chasms. Or the way he tried to use it against Adolin. Who was he protecting them? What was he trying to protect? I argue we can't seem to find anything in the first case, and if we look really hard, we might suggest that in the second case, it was his ego and his own sense of injury.

 

At their very best/ideal, the Radiants have a purpose. But not every single action they take has to be directed towards that purpose. For me, Shallan at her very best inspires people to be better than they are, and in doing so, transforms them. Look at the effect she had on her brothers over the years. And that's the key to what the Lightweavers, as Radiants, do.

 

[Of course, Shallan is just one Lightweaver, and this picture may change when we see more of them.]

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kasimir

[Ketek]

 

At their very best/ideal, the Radiants have a purpose. But not every single action they take has to be directed towards that purpose. For me, Shallan at her very best inspires people to be better than they are, and in doing so, transforms them. Look at the effect she had on her brothers over the years. And that's the key to what the Lightweavers, as Radiants, do.

 

 

Agreed, and this is not surprising considering that they provide spiritual sustenance for the other orders.

[GreyPilgrim]

The thing is, art and creation are the heart of lying. You take what is not and make of it a truth. This is the essence of Lightweaving, from what we have seen so far. A Lightweaver, as stated above, looks into lies and finds the truth in them. It has often been said in our own world that there is a little truth in every lie, and this is true of the Lightweavers.

 

 

I’ve noticed several posts that question why the second attribute of Lightweavers is honesty. These posts point out that Shallan has truthfulness issues and that Pattern is described as a “liespren.”

 

To add to what you said, Pattern said that humans would describe the Cryptics as liespren, but that is not how they see themselves. Before we Sharders were enlightened with the true name of Cryptics, we called them truthspren, based on Shallan's needing to produce a truth in order to Soulcast. Just like the Lightweavers themselves, the Cryptics follow a boundary between truth and lie. Humans would characterize them as liars, but one can clearly see their truthful aspect as well. The Cryptics are just that; cryptic, expressing truth in an indirect, somewhat unclear way that may seem like a lie and may even contain lies.

 

So back to the discussion of the Divine Attributes Creativity and Honesty. Creativity is balance between truth and fiction, as discusses above. Honety is necessary as an Attribute of Shalash (spelled it right!) and the Lightweavers in order to balance out their creativity. Creation can go either way: it can express more of a truth or more of a lie. Thus, Honesty works to keep the Lightweavers in check. If they must be honest, their creations will in the end be honest as well.

[Terra of Roshar]

At their very best/ideal, the Radiants have a purpose. But not every single action they take has to be directed towards that purpose. For me, Shallan at her very best inspires people to be better than they are, and in doing so, transforms them. Look at the effect she had on her brothers over the years. And that's the key to what the Lightweavers, as Radiants, do.

 

[Of course, Shallan is just one Lightweaver, and this picture may change when we see more of them.]

 

This fits in very well with what Words of Radiance (the in-world book) has to say about Lightweavers:

Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided great spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault.

              -- From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10

 

(WoR p. 547)

 

The pre-Recreance Lightweavers also seemingly used their powers to inspire others to better themselves.

[kari-no-sugata]

I've had a few thoughts on this subject myself. I don't know how much we can accurately infer from Shallan's case to Lightweavers in general but for the "honesty" divine attribute, I wonder if this is more in the Japanese sense rather than Western sense - the spren are (loosely) based on the Japanese Shinto idea about there being spirits in everything. In Japanese, a common phrase in anime/manga is for a character to be described as "sunao ja nai" which can be translated as character not being honest with themselves. A stereotypical romcom situation for this phrase would be a character "obviously" liking/loving another character, but denying it when challenged. ie emotional honesty. I don't think there's a common word in Japanese that directly corresponds to the Western concept of being "honest" as a whole (though I'm NOT saying that the concept doesn't exist!)

 

So maybe this "honest" divine attribute is more about emotional honesty.

 

How well does this apply to Shallan? Quite well, I think, though certainly not perfectly. Perhaps the most obvious example is how Shallan still blushes all the time.

 

Perhaps the best counter-example is that she has a strong inclination to focus on the positive side of things and avoid the negative side - I have a suspicion she avoids negative emotions as well (possibly more unconsciously than actively). That said, she can certainly feel fear (enough to attract fearspren), shows anger etc.

 

It could also be argued that Shallan's "emotional honesty" is why her tongue tends to run away with her - she doesn't have much control over expressing her emotions and likewise doesn't have much control with her words. She certainly does have some control and if she's under heavy pressure she can be more in control and for longer but will tend to revert to her natural self anyway. For example, she respects both Jasnah's and Tyn's opinion and on her initial meetings with Adolin she tries to do what she feels they would recommend but despite the critical importance of her relationship with Adolin it's not long before she's reverting to her usual self.

 

Some other thoughts on Shallan and being "honest": I don't think Shallan likes to lie (in the normal sense) and it's quite interesting that she still hopes to find absolute truth out there somewhere - truth that isn't shaped by human perception. She's also more than capable of being bluntly honest if she feels that it's the best option - such as with her first meeting with Dalinar. I doubt any of the other major characters would have been so willing to potentially undermine their own position so much.

 

I've also noticed that she's quite critical of herself (which I suspect puts off some readers) and uses self-deprecating humour a lot. I don't remember anything indicating that she has a big ego.

 

Another interesting thing about Shallan that I've not seen any discussion on is how she promised the deserters clemency and really kept to it - she is very much against Tyn's plan to collect the bounties on them and is quite adamant more than once that she "gave her word". She seems rather like Mat (from The Wheel of Time) in this regard.

[Leuthie]

Like a gun (or a shardblade), a lie is only as immoral as the person wielding it.

[Kasimir]

Leuthie, on 18 Apr 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

Like a gun (or a shardblade), a lie is only as immoral as the person wielding it.

I think the issue at hand here isn't a worry about the ethics of lies, but how to square Shallan's lying with what Lightweavers do and the Divine Attributes (Creativity, Honesty) governing their order.

[GreyPilgrim]

Like a gun (or a shardblade), a lie is only as immoral as the person wielding it.

 

Actually, some Shardblades (you know which) are capable of having their own morality. 

[WeiryWriter]

To add to what you said, Pattern said that humans would describe the Cryptics as liespren, but that is not how they see themselves. Before we Sharders were enlightened with the true name of Cryptics, we called them truthspren, based on Shallan's needing to produce a truth in order to Soulcast.

 

One slight correction, that is not how the term truthspren started.  Someone asked Brandon what we should call them instead of symbolheads and he told us "truthspren was a good enough name for now".  You are correct in that that is how we rationalized the name.

[Leuthie]

I think the issue at hand here isn't a worry about the ethics of lies, but how to square Shallan's lying with what Lightweavers do and the Divine Attributes (Creativity, Honesty) governing their order.

The title of the thread seems to suggest that calling them liars is bad. They are liars. Say a lie loud enough and often enough and it becomes the truth.

As for the Attributes:

What is creation? Taking what exists (truth) and making something that doesn't exist (lie?) out of it. What is honesty? Internalizing what exists (truth). Through Honesty, Shallan gains strength to be more Creative.

[Kasimir]

Leuthie, on 19 Apr 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

The title of the thread seems to suggest that calling them liars is bad. They are liars. Say a lie loud enough and often enough and it becomes the truth.

I don't see it implied anywhere in the thread title that liars are bad. All it says is straightforwardly that Lightweavers aren't liars. You might argue that it's only an issue because most people think lying is bad. But that issue has neither been one that has raised its head in this thread, nor is it pertinent. Whether Lightweavers are liars is only an issue because it's an inaccurate way of looking at what the Lightweavers are and what they do. It'd be as inaccurate as saying 'Gary Kasparov pushed some plastic game pieces around' or 'Dalinar/Alexander the Great was a general.'

I like your suggestion of the relation between Honesty and Creativity but I think it has to be acknowledged it is a two-way relationship. They can create/reveal truth as well, through Creativity.

At least with the Lightweavers around, truth doesn't seem to be an objective, given, Capital-T Truth. It can shift and sometimes, it's about changing that particular 'certain point of view'. Not to forget that instead of swearing further oaths, Lightweavers need to speak deeper truths about themselves.

[Leuthie]

If calling someone a liar isn't bad, what's wrong with calling Lightweavers liars? It fits. Since becoming a Lightweavers, Shallan has spent most of her time lying. To become a Lightweaver, she had to attract a spren who appreciated her ability at lying.

We can redefine moral lies as lowercase-t truths that haven't been created yet, but the word "liar" would still apply.

[Kasimir]

If calling someone a liar isn't bad, what's wrong with calling Lightweavers liars? It fits. Since becoming a Lightweavers, Shallan has spent most of her time lying. To become a Lightweaver, she had to attract a spren who appreciated her ability at lying.

We can redefine moral lies as lowercase-t truths that haven't been created yet, but the word "liar" would still apply.

Because it applies but only at a shallow level of description--it is itself not descriptively adequate, as I've argued, and as many people upthread have been spending their time doing. Furthermore: Sure, you could read into this thread the impulse that 'lying is bad', but it isn't a point of discussion in this thread (trying to figure out what the Lightweavers are doing is), nor is it relevant. Our points would still hold, regardless of whether lying is or isn't morally acceptable. Our discussion could take place perfectly fine regardless of whether that is assumed or isn't.

And I should clarify--I'm only coming down on the bringing of moral discussion into this thread because I don't want it to derail like the other ethics threads have a tendency to do. As I don't want to ironically cause what I was trying to avoid, after this post, I will no longer engage with attempts to bring ethics into this.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kasimir

[Aoibheann]

At the end of WoR, Pattern strongly hints that Shallan will need to stop with the Veil front if she is to truly become a Radiant.

Pattern is really attracted to the abstract thought humans produce linking otherwise disparate ideas. Shallan's synthesis of the Urithiru location is a perfect example of this. Pattern assumes each map is drawn to scale, but many of the older maps are really vague drawings.

Pattern knows there is no Truth, but he can't find the truths Shallan can. Shallan believes she is searching for Truth, finding many truths along the way.

[kaellok]

There is no absolute truth; if there were, then maybe Lightweavers would be liars.  Or at least there would maybe be a good argument that they are. Sure, Shallan does a whole lot of lying; so do other people.  Lying is something that people do.  To find out the difference between when it's Shallan lying as a person, or Shallan lying as a Lightweaver, we can simply look to Pattern's reactions for clues, as well as the few references to Lightweavers in the epigraphs.

 

When she is lying to present a new version of the truth she seems to be upholding what it means to be a Lightweaver the most.  Somewhere inside of the deserters were the noble and idealistic soldiers wanting to protect the nation; somewhere inside of herself she was confident and poised; somewhere inside of herself she was terrified, scared, and broken--but those weren't helpful, so she chose to not be them anymore.  When Kaladin wonders how she can still be happy and cheerful despite it all, she responds that being crazy helps; a lie, but also a truth.

 

An honest lie is one that reveals truth.  This is especially true with art, whether movies, books, song, or drawings.  Those are the lies that Pattern seems to find most interesting, and those are the lies that Shallan usually (but most definitely not always) tells.  To say that Lightweavers are liars is like saying the Mona Lisa was a painting, the Declaration of Independence was a collection of words, or Lightweavers are liars--each statement is technically correct, but misses the point so badly that they may as well be a lie in and of themselves.