The Ja Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 This is my first theory, so we'll see how this goes... Words of Radiance spoilers ahead This idea actually doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I think that Moash will become a Dustbringer. We found out in WoR that his childhood (plus being a bridgeman) broke him enough to prime him for a Nahel Bond. Also, his plan to assassinate Elhokhar because of what he did screams of a Dustbringer. Moash still seems to be able to wield his shardblade, (I don't remember any mention of screaming in Kal's fight with him) but I will be interested to see if he stops wielding the shardblade in the next book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I think you could make an interesting argument about what Moash was trying to do to Elhokar mirroring what Adolin did to Sadeas. It's an interesting theory. I don't really think any Radiants will end up working for Taravangian, but there's always the unfortunate possibility of Moash being a double agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrophobe Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Moash seems to realize that he's gotten in way over his head, as Graves is talking about introducing him to the diagram... I do agree that his goal to kill Elhokar was something akin to Adolin's takedown of Sadeas, but... He seemed far too willing to kill Kaladin for me to ever feel good about his turning Radiant. I'd guess that he'll end up on the side of good, but not a Radiant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Joe in the Bush Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 The Radiants don't have to be Morally right, some are complete Liars. I'm looking at you Shallan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 But there's a difference between being incompetent, and being bad. Elhokar is incompetent. Sadeas is/was bad. If incompetence were grounds for death, then a lot of us wouldn't survive to bear children! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Intent-wise, there's a HUGE difference between Adolin and Moash--and that may make all the difference between one being able to be a Radiant and the other a powerful dupe. Adolin's actions can basically be boiled down to stopping evil/bad/wrong from occurring in the future, immediately after a man who has committed such evil/bad/wrong in the past gleefully talked about his plans to continue being evil/bad/wrong. Moash was wanting revenge, nothing more, and nothing less. Mr T has much better reasoning for the slaughter of thousands (if you include the war he engineered in Jah Keved), and seems more likely to become a Radiant in my book (I also think this to be incredibly unlikely, but a 0.1% chance is greater than a 0.01%). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistLord Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Intent-wise, there's a HUGE difference between Adolin and Moash--and that may make all the difference between one being able to be a Radiant and the other a powerful dupe. Adolin's actions can basically be boiled down to stopping evil/bad/wrong from occurring in the future, immediately after a man who has committed such evil/bad/wrong in the past gleefully talked about his plans to continue being evil/bad/wrong. Moash was wanting revenge, nothing more, and nothing less. Mr T has much better reasoning for the slaughter of thousands (if you include the war he engineered in Jah Keved), and seems more likely to become a Radiant in my book (I also think this to be incredibly unlikely, but a 0.1% chance is greater than a 0.01%). Was just about to post just this actually. Everyone seems to be implying that Moash wanted to kill Elhokar for 'the greater good', when that plainly wasn't the truth at all. He wanted plain and simple revenge, and the fact he pretended to justify his reasons is not honourable at all - it's the complete opposite. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 But there's a difference between being incompetent, and being bad. Elhokar is incompetent. Sadeas is/was bad. If incompetence were grounds for death, then a lot of us wouldn't survive to bear children! I suspect the difference between being incompetent and being bad was lost on Moash's family as they starved to death in prison waiting for a trial that was never going to come. (I'm also curious as to how Elhokar managed to screw up that badly. No matter how much you trust someone, wouldn't you get suspicious when they tell you to put some people in prison and then never bring them to trial? I feel like Dalinar might have been refusing to accept that Elhokar played a willing part in what happened, but I digress...) I'm not arguing incompetence is grounds for death, I'm arguing that incompetence that results in lives being lost is grounds for someone being forced to abdicate from a position of power where their incompetence threatens lives. Much like you don't let a toddler play with a loaded gun, you don't let an incompetent be king. But yes, I agree that there are some key differences between Adolin and Moash's desire to kill their respective enemies. I still think there's an interesting connection, and perhaps the Dustbringers were a more revenge-oriented Order so they both could fit in it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Oh I agree that Elhokar should step down. He's a bad king with a bad queen, and who knows how his heirs will turn out? But yeah, you're right that it's still dead as far as Moash's family is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketek Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I highly doubt Moash will become a Radiant. The thing is, he could have forced Elhokar to step down instead of killing him. There were ways that did not require assassination; this was petty vengeance. I've always seen Moash as a dark mirror of Kaladin. And now that he's part of Taravangian's crew, I doubt he'll ever redeem himself - remember, the moment he tried to leave he'd either be killed by T's men or put on trial by the Alethi for attempted assassination. It's far more likely that he gains something like Voidbinding, or if that doesn't happen, he'll become one hell of a Shardbearer. You don't need Surgebinding to kill a Surgebinder. Extreme competence in arms would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I agree, Moogle. It's already interesting how (dis)similar Skybreakers are to the Windrunners, so I'm keen to see how the Dustbringers add to the mix. Skybreakers seem to be focused on the Law to determine Right from Wrong (although the epigraph in p.636 of the hardcover edition also tells us that Skybreakers have a great aptitude for separating the guilty from the innocent), so it's possible that Dustbringers fulfill the same function from the opposite side--but instead use their own feelings or judgement. That also might be why so many people felt there was little to differentiate between Dustbringers and Voidbringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I think a big point to note is the difference in situations as well. In modern terms, Moash (had he succeeded) would be guilty of 1st Degree Murder, whereas Adolin would be guilty of 2nd degree murder. Moash attempted murder in cold blood, it was premeditated, and not provoked (at the time, Elhokar wasn't taunting him about his grandparents when the time came.) That speaks a lot, not just about intent, but about character. Adolin committed a crime of passion. He got caught up in the heat of the argument with Sadeas, which has been happening for two books now, and for once there was no one there to hold him back. Adolin didn't plan to kill Sadea, he didn't wait until his emotions were cool, he just acted. I think that difference between the two would be why Adolin could become a KR, whereas Moash won't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I think a big point to note is the difference in situations as well. In modern terms, Moash (had he succeeded) would be guilty of 1st Degree Murder, whereas Adolin would be guilty of 2nd degree murder. Moash attempted murder in cold blood, it was premeditated, and not provoked (at the time, Elhokar wasn't taunting him about his grandparents when the time came.) That speaks a lot, not just about intent, but about character. Adolin committed a crime of passion. He got caught up in the heat of the argument with Sadeas, which has been happening for two books now, and for once there was no one there to hold him back. Adolin didn't plan to kill Sadea, he didn't wait until his emotions were cool, he just acted. I think that difference between the two would be why Adolin could become a KR, whereas Moash won't. This. I get irritated when people say Adolin killed Sadeas in cold blood when nothing could be further from the truth. Sadeas had tried to kill Adolin in cold blood. That's what The Tower was all about, and he was extremely cold about it. Adolin killed Sadeas in extremely hot blood after discovering that he was still trying to kill him. Yeah. Moash and Elhokar, though, that's trickier. The fact that it was a conspiracy would probably affect its legal standing, but I'm not a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 I think Moash will join Odium. Ending up in a massive Kal/Moash showdown as champions of Honor and Odium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) It does sound like everyone and their chull is about to become a KR in our theories I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Moash becoming a KR in the very, very, very distant future, but within the next three books, probably not. I think it's possible we see an attempt from Moash to redeem himself, yes. Especially since his reaction to Graves was to realise he'd "been played for one of the ten fools." It would be hard for him to become a KR though. What seems to draw the spren is a match in impulse, and so far, all we've seen driving Moash is his desire for revenge. How he reacts to this is an open question, and it's possible he decides to help Bridge Four in the end when deployed by Mr T. and his diagramists, but for me, it looks like he's made the choice and he'll have to deal with that for quite a bit. Edited April 19, 2014 by Kasimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 It does sound like everyone and their chull is about to become a KR in our theories I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Moash becoming a KR in the very, very, very distant future, but within the next three books, probably not. I think it's possible we see an attempt from Moash to redeem himself, yes. Especially since his reaction to Graves was to realise he'd "been played for one of the ten fools." It would be hard for him to become a KR though. What seems to draw the spren is a match in impulse, and so far, all we've seen driving Moash is his desire for revenge. How he reacts to this is an open question, and it's possible he decides to help Bridge Four in the end when deployed by Mr T. and his diagramists, but for me, it looks like he's made the choice and he'll have to deal with that for quite a bit. Moash would be a good candidate for a boodyl redemption were he ends up sacrifying himself to save his old pals from bridge 4. I would applaud as I do not really care if Moash live or die. In fact, it could make an interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrindIf Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Moash was given his Shards (his Shards! the most incredible present ever made to a darkeyes!) by Kaladin, who saved also his life more than once. Thus, he rather killed Kaladin than think twice about his revenge and postpone it. He is, in my opinion, one of the darkest character in the book so far, if not the darkest. (I have less issues understanding Amaram or Sadeas.) My theory is that what will become of him has already been fortold: All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds. Edited April 19, 2014 by BrindIf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 That one has already happened. It's when Kaladin stands against Moash to defend Elhokar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Mraize Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm still new to the boards, so could someone kindly point me to why Moash's actions "screams of dustbringer"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketek Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Because people were asking whether Adolin would ever be accepted by any order of the Knights Radiant, having murdered Sadeas. Brandon said some orders would approve of what he did; he gave a smile and half-nod(?) when somebody suggested the Dustbringers. Since Moash did something similar... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 It's debatable whether Moash's actions were similiar to Adolin's. I don't think we can draw a parallel here. Adolin killed Sadeas when provoked without plotting it and Moash not only conspired against Elhokar, but tried to kill him along with his friend and commander Kaladin. Jasnah has plotted and ordered assassinations, so that likely isn't be considered against the First Words, but trying to kill a friend... Now that's something else. I don't think Moash will be a surgebinder any time soon just because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketek Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 I agree, but that is what others have speculated. I personally don't think Moash will be a Surgebinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitSpren Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds. That one has already happened. It's when Kaladin stands against Moash to defend Elhokar. Could you explain that one to me. It does not seem to work either way I look at it for that event. Probably just me being dim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalenthas Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 I think Moash will become our viewpoint from within the Diagram, and I agree with the assessment that he'll eventually make a Heroic Sacrifice to save Kaladin and/or Bridge Four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds. Could you explain that one to me. It does not seem to work either way I look at it for that event. Probably just me being dim. Moash saved Kal's life in WoK (he almost got ran over by a horse on a bridgerun). The chapter in which Dalinar told Kal about the Roshone affair is called 'The one who killed promises'. Syl and his surgebinding were withdrawn from Kal when the assassination attempt happened, but he said the Words and stretched his hand, making the storm respond (figuratively). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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