Will Kal give the Honorblade to Rlain so he can go lookfor & protect his people?

[WitSpren]

Kal can't go hauling the extra Honorblade with him everywhere.    Especially, when going to Hearthstone, where he is going to be really busy.     For that matter, he is going to always be really busy for the forseable future.    So what can he do with it?       He can't just leave it laying around, waiting to be stolen.

 

Also, the Listeners and deserted Parishmen need to be taken care of.    To leave the Parishmen unattendended, is to basically ask for an even greater disaster.

 

So why not give the Honorblade to Rlain and "Charge" him with gathering the Parishmen and protecting them from "Both" storms.     Hopefully, while he is doing that, he can find the runaway Listeners as well and help protect them as well.

 

The best place that I can think of to have them go - would be Serbial's warcamp, which had rounded roofs so it would be protected from both East and West directions.

 

Rlain carrying the Honorblade & flying around would "extrude" a lot of inherent "authority" with any humans, parishmen and Listeners that he ran into.     They might even give him a "Writ" from the King to provide a little extra authority with any humans that he might run into.

 

 

 

 

 

OK -  I already know that this is a really LONG shot, far fetched theory.

 

But it does tie up many loose ends from the end of WoR:

 

- Abandoned Parishmen   -    (Potential Voidbringers if not addressed)

- Runaway Listeners & children.    -     (Potential Voidbringers if not addressed)

- the Honorblade

- Serbiel's unique compound, with its rounded corners and multi-level basements.

- Rlain

- Bringing the two races together in a cooperative manner.

- Bringing the two races together under the Kings Banner like Gaviler wanted to do 6+ years ago.

- Showing a huge level of trust between the two races.

- Undermine - the escaped Converted Voidbringers authority and excuse for forcing additional (runaway) Listener conversions

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I do not see this as being very likely.     But it would be a massive step toward solving a lot of these issues.

 

The more likely thing to happen is for Kal to give the Honorblade to Delinar (who - per Stormfather - will have no Shards.     

 

Also:     Do you think that the Honorblade will activate the Oathgate?       My guess is that it will.

 

 

[taliefer]

why cant he carry it around? once it "bonds" with him it poofs. he seemed to be in a hurry to get to his home, i dont know that he'd take the time to find a good home for the blade.

[Vessyr]

We can't discredit anything because anything can happen, but I do agree it is a long shot. Rlain will most likely end up being bound as a squire. Which will then open up a whole lot of possibilities of cooperation between the 2 races.

 

Others speculate that Adolin will get the honorblade. It is also possible that they will just try to find a way to lock it up behind a mechanism similar to the Oath Gate. You would need to be a radiant to get to it then. Syl warns Kaladin that it is dangerous. So I don't see him giving it away easily.

[Guimond777]

Um, isn't the title of this thread kinda...spolierish?

[dyring]

Dalinar is an option. That blade doesent scream, and Dalinar already got the checks, of sorts, from the bond with the stormfather.

 

Stormfather said he´d be a radiant without shards, but not sure if honorblade´s counts.

[Khyrindor]

I think he'll give it to his father. he is the only one who he can trust with it.

[bdoble97]

If this would happen would it hint that Relain would become a pov character. In the 2nd set if 5books

[kaellok]

A few comments:

 

1.  There is no way that Kaladin is going to give the Honorblade to someone who isn't a Darkeyes.  Pre-WoR, I would have accepted such a decision, but his entire story arc in WoR was about how much of a terrible, hateful person he is (albeit with reason).  He dealt with his immediate unreasoning hatred.  If it's taken him two entire books to acknowledge that there might be a good Lighteyes--or even one who doesn't act the way they do out of malice towards others--then he's not going to give up that kind of power easily to a non-Darkeyes.

 

2.  Does anyone except for us know that there are any Parshendi that may have survived?  Or are you talking about the millions of parshmen that are going to be changed against their will and set about destroying the world?  Unless the Honorblade is capable of something far beyond anything that we've seen, sending one person to take care of that potential menace is worse than foolish.

 

3.  Writ or no, if a parshmen comes flying into a city with a Shardblade, people are going to react as if he's a second Assassin in White, especially if he arrives after the Everstorm hits.

 

4.  I think that there's a far stronger argument that Kaladin will give the Honorblade to Teft.

[Ketek]

I don't think it's Kaladin's decision. As of now, Dalinar Kholin is his immediate superior, not just in the military but also the Knights Radiant. If anything, it'll likely be safeguarded by the Alethi while the latter figures out whom to give it to. Some likely candidates:

 

1. Adolin (a very, very competent Shardbearer and likely someone Dalinar would figure he could entrust with an Honorblade).

2. Dalinar himself (he's always been loath to give up power, and he does need a Shardblade).

 

I can't really think of anyone else, but a darkeyes would likely be the last person on the list. Alethkar isn't quite ready yet to give someone of that status the blade of a man who was considered near-godlike himself.

[Arin]

I don't think it's Kaladin's decision. As of now, Dalinar Kholin is his immediate superior, not just in the military but also the Knights Radiant. If anything, it'll likely be safeguarded by the Alethi while the latter figures out whom to give it to. Some likely candidates:

 

1. Adolin (a very, very competent Shardbearer and likely someone Dalinar would figure he could entrust with an Honorblade).

2. Dalinar himself (he's always been loath to give up power, and he does need a Shardblade).

 

I can't really think of anyone else, but a darkeyes would likely be the last person on the list. Alethkar isn't quite ready yet to give someone of that status the blade of a man who was considered near-godlike himself.

 

I get that Dalinar is a highprince, but why is he Kal's superior? Kal has a responsibility to his spren and his oaths, not to Dalinar or to the Alethi. I like Dalinar and I hope he becomes THE leader of the KR, but he didnt refound the KR like he claims to want, he didnt really do anything for the KR. Shalan has been on the path to KR for 15 years (my guess at how long) and she found Urithiru and saved everyone. Shalan even tells Dalinar that he is not her leader. I cant see any of the KR accepting Dalinar as the leader, except his son (I dont think his son will for long). ... As for the honorblade, I think the existance of it will be significant because it is a harolds blade. Someone like Shalan, Jasnah or Navani would want to figure out who owned the blade and find them if they could. So far the blades have been myth and its existance could be used to prove a lot of things that no one has really believed.

[Maffu17]

I wondered what they're going to do about trying to stop all the Parshmen in the world getting transformed by the oncoming Everstorm, Kaladin is going to hearthstone so he's out. Giving Windrunner powers to Rlain and having him race across the world gathering the Parshmen and keeping them Voidsprenless is actually a good idea. 

 

Judging that Eshonai had to go out into a storm to transform into Stone Form i'm just hoping that being inside buildings when the Everstorm comes will be enough to protect the Parshmen, that way the whole of society won't collapse early on in book 3 with the first full passing of the Everstorm. Meaning somebody will have to actively go around exposing pockets of Parshmen one storm at a time.

 

Are the red-lightning spren that are the head of the Everstorm the same as the captured "stormspren"  Eshonai and the others used to transform? 

 

Maybe Sigzil would be the better choice for traversing the world and securing the Parshmen as he already has great knowledge of the geography and cultures involved.

[Kasimir]

Will the Honorblade even be useful though?

Kaladin's had to take time and spend afternoons learning how to properly Surgebind and to use his Lashings to travel swiftly. It seems to me that giving the Honorblade to Rlain for the purposes of saving the surviving Parshmen isn't particularly useful in that regard. Unless the Honorblade also bestows an instinctive capacity to know how to Surgebind, then the time Rlain's going to need to take to learn how to breathe in the Stormlight, hold it, and is going to be precious time he needs. Or Kaladin could take the time off to instruct him, but he himself is in a rush. And I suspect that while Dalinar or Shallan or Renarin (?) could teach him to breathe Stormlight, he'll still have to learn how to use the Surges.

And unlike Kaladin, he's confined to using the Honorblade outside of a storm, as the storms would probably unwillingly transform him. So he's also strictly restricted to the Stormlight they do have with them, and with the Honorblade, he uses them inefficiently.

I don't deny the Honorblade is probably very useful, and that there's more to it we don't yet know of, but it seems to me that at least for the purposes of saving the remaining Parshmen, it's not going to be particularly useful.

Although: is a Listener who is bonded to an Honorblade immune to the transforming effects of the storms? I suspect a KR spren might grant immunity, but an Honorblade?

Edited April 18, 2014 by Kasimir

[Aether]

I get that Dalinar is a highprince, but why is he Kal's superior?

He is the Captain of the Bridgemen Legion and the leader of his personal guard. He hasn't renounced this position, nor has been released from it. As Knights Radiants, they are on equal footing, but he is still his direct superior outside of that.

[Arin]

He is the Captain of the Bridgemen Legion and the leader of his personal guard. He hasn't renounced this position, nor has been released from it. As Knights Radiants, they are on equal footing, but he is still his direct superior outside of that.

I can accept Kal was in Dalinar's chain of command, but in regards to the KR and the honor blade being given to Dalinar because he is Kal's superior, I don't think that still works. I kinda think Kal's oaths get in the way of being in Dalinar's command or any command outside the Windrunners. He has to follow his oaths to his spren, which could easily conflict with the Alethi mission.

[Ketek]

 

I get that Dalinar is a highprince, but why is he Kal's superior? Kal has a responsibility to his spren and his oaths, not to Dalinar or to the Alethi. I like Dalinar and I hope he becomes THE leader of the KR, but he didnt refound the KR like he claims to want, he didnt really do anything for the KR. Shalan has been on the path to KR for 15 years (my guess at how long) and she found Urithiru and saved everyone. Shalan even tells Dalinar that he is not her leader. I cant see any of the KR accepting Dalinar as the leader, except his son (I dont think his son will for long). ... As for the honorblade, I think the existance of it will be significant because it is a harolds blade. Someone like Shalan, Jasnah or Navani would want to figure out who owned the blade and find them if they could. So far the blades have been myth and its existance could be used to prove a lot of things that no one has really believed.

 

Aether has answered this somewhat, but I'll add something to it - the Bondsmiths were apparently the leaders of the Knights Radiant, along with the Heralds. So not only does Dalinar outrank Kaladin in the military, but also KR status, even if oathwise he is one step down from Kaladin. Note how he calls him 'soldier' and his mentioning to the Stormfather that he needs to join the KR if he is to lead them.

 

I can accept Kal was in Dalinar's chain of command, but in regards to the KR and the honor blade being given to Dalinar because he is Kal's superior, I don't think that still works. I kinda think Kal's oaths get in the way of being in Dalinar's command or any command outside the Windrunners. He has to follow his oaths to his spren, which could easily conflict with the Alethi mission.

 

It won't be given to him to use; not necessarily, anyway. Dalinar would probably command that it be kept for safeguarding for now, a prudent move since its last wielder caused havoc all over Roshar. Would you risk giving it to someone who might end up doing the same?

 

As for Kaladin's oaths getting in the way, I think that's unlikely. He can't protect every single person - I think his oaths are flexible enough for him to choose when he can save someone and when he can't (or when not saving someone would allow him to save more later). If the oaths were that strict, the Radiants would never get anything done at all. 10 different orders with different ideals... man, that requires some compromise.

[Arin]

I wanted to respond Ketek, but the quote option isnt working for me...

How are the Bondsmiths the KR leaders? They seem to be ambasadors or diplomats not leaders or generals. -- not to argue too much, but IMO bondsmiths would be the last to lead a group like the winrunners or skybreakers, etc.-- My thought on Kal and his oaths conflicting is: what if someone needed his protection on the other side of Roshar or a Parshendi? What if someone needed protection against the Alethi? In the best case His "alethi" mission has him connected to one King and one group and that would limit him. The worst case would have the Kal and his group in conflicts with other Rosharins or against the Alethi. Kal cant do both missions.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Arin

[Kasimir]

My thought on Kal and his oaths conflicting is: what if someone needed his protection on the other side of Roshar or a Parshendi? In the best case His "alethi" mission has him connected to one King and one group and that would limit him. The worst case would have the Alethi have Kal and his group in conflicts with other Rosharins. Kal cant do both missions.

I'd say you're not wrong to suggest that Kaladin's oaths carry the potential for conflict. Really, I suspect, that potential for conflict is why Pattern tells Shallan she will one day kill him, and that pessimism is echoed by the Stormfather telling Kaladin he will one day kill Syl (and later on, that he refuses to be bound in such a manner that will kill him.)

 

My first response is that it seems strongly against what Honour stands for to require more than that a KR do their best to keep their oaths. I think it's frankly unrealistic to expect Kaladin's oaths to break the moment he fails to protect someone, because at the moment, we have a single Windrunner and the world's in a bad way. A lot of people are going to need protecting. He obviously gets some flexibility to choose what he wants to protect, but I'll agree he has to walk the fine line between choosing and turning his back on someone obviously in need of his protection.

 

I've just set this up as a preliminary clarification. Your point is definitely stronger than that: even then, Kaladin's oaths could conflict. So, let me agree with you: yes. They could. And guess what? They have.

 

We see two things at the end of WoR. While I'll agree Kaladin is in a rather ill-defined place at the moment, being both a KR [i'm not going to engage in the Bondsmith as leaders debate at the moment] and a captain under Dalinar in the chain of command, he clearly tells Dalinar he has to go and protect his parents. And Dalinar lets him go.

 

“Soldier?” Dalinar called. “I’ve done what I can to warn our people.” “My parents are back there,” Kaladin said. “And the citylord of my town has parshmen. I’m going.”

...

“How much Light will that take, son?” Dalinar asked.

“I don’t know,” Kaladin admitted. “A lot, probably.”

Shallan looked to Dalinar. They didn’t have Stormlight to spare. Though those from the warcamps brought recharged spheres, activating the Oathgate took a great deal of Stormlight, depending on how many people were brought. Lighting the lamps in the room at the center of the Oathgate was merely the minimum amount needed to start the device—bringing many people partially drained the infused gemstones they carried as well.

“I will get you what I can, lad,” Dalinar said. “Go with my blessing. Perhaps you will have enough left over to get to the capital afterward and help the people there.”

To be honest, as a KR himself and as someone trying to follow the Way of Kings, I suspect Dalinar has the flexibility to understand what is demanded by Kaladin's oaths. So I do think they have conflict very nicely under control. (And in all fairness, I think the events at the end of WoR are a gamechanger, enough that he might be removed from bodyguard duty, because quite frankly, he's not very good at that, and he's probably better employed elsewhere.)

 

And I agree with Ketek: quite frankly, the KRs needed compromise. Just think about the debate between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers and imagine that happening mid-Desolation. They'd never get anything done. Even if it isn't the standard role of the Bondsmith to lead all the other KR orders, I'm not surprised if that's what Dalinar ends up doing. In a Desolation, you need a way to coordinate all the different orders and the other kingdoms, and as far as I see, Kaladin's not going to be the one to do it. He's not as good at handling the big picture, and I think we've got enough reason to believe that Dalinar is flexible enough to allow him some space.

[Arin]

I am not 100% sure on this next part, but I think I am... The oaths are imposed on the KR and spren by the Harolds (Ishar - Bondsmith Harold?, by order of Jezrian) to restrict and control them. I think these restrictions dont allow the orders enough freedom to do as they like. I see this as part of the flaw in the KR that may have led to the recreance. They cant act freely and they are unable to help those they want because it may conflict. something I am afraid Kal will find out when he goes to his home. ... I do hope Dalinar actually uses his bondsmith mojo to break the Harolds restrictions and create a new order that can be lead by him.

... Son of a... I spelled Herald wrong. Sorry.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Arin

[Seonookim]

Ummm...

 

Szeth said that the stone shamans would reclaim the blade when he died, so they'll probably take it back.

[Maffu17]

 

I am not 100% sure on this next part, but I think I am... The oaths are imposed on the KR and spren by the Harolds (Ishar - Bondsmith Harold?, by order of Jezrian) to restrict and control them. I think these restrictions dont allow the orders enough freedom to do as they like. I see this as part of the flaw in the KR that may have led to the recreance. They cant act freely and they are unable to help those they want because it may conflict. something I am afraid Kal will find out when he goes to his home. ... I do hope Dalinar actually uses his bondsmith mojo to break the Harolds restrictions and create a new order that can be lead by him.

 

 

 

 

upvote for the use of Harold which made me giggle.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Maffu17

[Arin]

Son of a... I spelled Herald wrong. sorry.

[WitSpren]

Szeth is headed there now  & I do not expect it to go well for all the Truthless Stone Shamans.      Also an Everstorm is about to hit them from the wrong direction, so the Shin will be in Big general trouble as well.     Shinovar is poorly adapted for Highstorms.    They have regular animals - chickens/horses and plants +++  that are not Highstorm adapted because the Highstorms that normally reach Shinovar have mostly worn out.      The Everstorm, will be coming from the wrong direction & Killing Earth like Plants & animals & converting Parishmen.  

 

Does Shinovar have many Parishmen?     I do not remember, but even if they don't - It will not be a good time in Shinovar tonight.

[Ketek]

I wanted to respond Ketek, but the quote option isnt working for me...

How are the Bondsmiths the KR leaders? They seem to be ambasadors or diplomats not leaders or generals. -- not to argue too much, but IMO bondsmiths would be the last to lead a group like the winrunners or skybreakers, etc.-- My thought on Kal and his oaths conflicting is: what if someone needed his protection on the other side of Roshar or a Parshendi? What if someone needed protection against the Alethi? In the best case His "alethi" mission has him connected to one King and one group and that would limit him. The worst case would have the Kal and his group in conflicts with other Rosharins or against the Alethi. Kal cant do both missions. 

 

It's okay, I'm having the same problems too.

 

Well, I figure they're the leaders based on

 

1. They bond special spren rather than the usual ones. Dalinar bonded with the Stormfather - the closest thing to Honor now that he's gone. I figure this means they have something special to go with the Radiant status.

 

2. Ishar, their patron, has the attributes of piety and guidance - the latter sounds like something a leader would need. 

 

3. Dalinar did say he was going to lead, and the Stormfather gave him those visions for a reason...

 

And we have this quote too, which doesn't really say anything but imho, it hints at the Bondsmiths being in charge:

 

“So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.”

 

'Resolved to destroy the Voidbringers'... it sounds like he was the one giving the orders, or at least the brains behind the strategies.

 

Anyway, I think that the Bondsmiths are responsible for turning the Radiants into a cohesive force, Heralds aside (whom I believe are responsible for only their orders). It's sorta like the Aes Sedai's hierarchy; there is a council, but each Ajah also has a leader of their own. It certainly fits in with their second Ideal. And how would they do that with all those oaths conflicting? I figure they likely strive for an acceptable compromise - so in a sense, they are both diplomat and leader.

 

As for Kaladin's oaths conflicting, Kasimir has pretty much said everything I could, but I'll add that his mission is not so much an 'Alethi' mission as it is a Radiant mission, or a personal one.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Ketek

[AerionBFII]

I have a bad feeling about that Honorblade... I hope it stays with Kaladin!

I always thought he would be Jezrien's successor, maybe he could use it to strengthen his own powers?

[Ketek]

According to WoB it could strengthen his own powers but not by much; compounding isn't really as notable in Surgebinding as it is in Allomancy/Feruchemy. Strength comes more from the amount of Stormlight you have, apparently.

 

And the Honorblade would just eat more Stormlight while granting a minimal increase in power, so not too useful.