Two Accounts of the Girl Who Looked Up

[Pagerunner]

This weekend at WorldCon, someone asked Brandon about the historicity of The Girl Who Looked Up:

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Sparkle Hearts [PENDING REVIEW]

The Girl That Looked Up. Is that a real story that happened in Roshar? Or just a metaphor?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, Hoid heard it from someone. He did not make it up.

Sparkle Hearts [PENDING REVIEW]

I'm thinking Shallan told the story...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, he told the story, too. He knew the story, she knew the story. What you're asking is if it's actually historical?

Sparkle Hearts [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Did it happen?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll give you a RAFO. Because there's actually a little bit to it that I can't talk about. That probably tells you more than I even should already.

There are some weird things about that story, particularly the version that Hoid is involved in.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan tells half the story, and then later on, Hoid comes, and the story happens again differently. But there are weird things when Hoid is involved in the story that are relevant.

source

I noticed three key differences in the versions:

• Shallan's message is that we're monsters; Hoid's mesage is that failures make us greater
• Hoid's version says there was no light before, only starlight
• Shallan says Stormlight; Hoid says God's Light
• Shallan says the wall was destroyed; Hoid says the storms "boiled over" the wall

Recognizing the difference in morals is essential in approaching the basis of the legend. The story isn't about either; it can, however, be made to be about one or the other. But if we're going to examine the story as a retelling of events, even a mythological retelling, it doesn't have to be a word of warning or an admonition of strength. Looking at the similarities (the presence of storms, the existence of a wall, going from Lightless to Light), we can guess that there is some historical basis for the story, regardless of how it's used. And with the revelations at the end of OB for Humans as Voidbringers, I think it's pretty clear that the story is connected in some way to that context. So, let's contrast Hoid's story with Shallan's to try to figure out some details; I'm going to assume the differences highlight what Hoid says, and that he'll have the more faithful account.

 

The Differences

The "land of shadows" is explicitly called out by the text as something Shallan didn't know about, but that made the whole story make more sense. Like how people didn't know there was a wall; it was because they actually couldn't see it. Hoid mentions people seeing by starlight, which I think will throw the Domed Shinovar theory into the garbage before I can even articulate it. This darkness must be metaphorical; the Wall isn't physically the mountains that protect Ashyn, it just happens to be a parallel. In the context of the story, I don't think they had the sun on the other side of the wall, either; their lives were illuminated by God's Light normally, and the experience of the people inside the wall changed to match that. There's no event in the story that grants people sunlight; their hypothetical options would be Storms and Light, or Safety and Darkness. That's why I say the story is metaphorical, though much of the metaphor was drawn from the very real events of humanity venturing out of their appointed lands.

"Stormlight" vs "God's Light" is another key difference. There are a lot of gods in the Cosmere, but who would Hoid call God? His point of view in the Elantris 10th Anniversary scene implies that Hoid believes in the God Beyond. And the end of WoR, he has a conversation with Jasnah where he says Tanavast wasn't God, and that she'll "find God in the same place you're going to find salvation from this mess. Inside the hearts of men." If he shares the views of Frost, who calls Odium "God's own divine hatred," then there would be a connection to Adonalsium there. This ties in with the metaphorical nature I highlighted in the last paragraph; the story is a metaphor for something going on in the hearts of men, about something bigger than a migration to a new planet.

The last difference makes me wonder what the Wall represents. Shallan's story changes the nature of the world, through the destruction of the Wall allowing the existing storms to break through. Hoid's changes the nature of the Storms, where they now boil over the Wall, but the Wall isn't destroyed. I think this ascribes some sort of intelligence to whatever is represented by the Storms; it now enters where it did not, not because the obstacles are deeper, but because someone took its Light there, and now it continues to return there to replenish that Light. This isn't an act of Man; it's an act of God.

 

The Religious Allegory

As a pretty religious individual, I'm seeing heavy parallels to Christianity throughout this story, highlighted by the differences listed above. The girl stealing Light, but bringing Storms, is very reminiscent of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in Eden. They received knowledge of Good and Evil, but they also received the curse of mortality. Since then, the message of Christianity is not returning to the Innocence of Eden, but moving forward to a new kind of Glorification; not going back, but pressing onward. That's the same thing we see in this story; life was fundamentally altered, this is what made things the way they are now, and there's no going back.

God's Light is also a concept that appears in real-world religions. Some books of the Bible, 1 John in particular, use Light as a metaphor for God's Truth, or specifically the Scriptures. It's not pleasant to be under the scrutiny of God's Light, but it does reveal areas of sin in our lives. That's extremely similar to what the Light did in the story here; it made life harder for humanity, but they're not going back to when they were blissfully in darkness.

The Storms boiling over, instead of the Wall falling down, also reminds me of a key aspect of Jesus' teachings. Man doesn't attain to reconciliation with God; God, through the person and works of Jesus Christ, reached down to accomplish that reconciliation. That's why I said above that the Storms reaching over the Wall isn't because the Girl's actions brought the Wall down; it's because God now sends his Storms across the wall.

So, why do I sound like Billy Graham, rattling off all this Christianity? It's to hammer home that this is not about the physical exodus of humans from their appointed place on Roshar; Hoid's story makes me think it's something bigger than that. I don't think it's how they stole spren and Surges on Roshar, either. The humans had Investiture, they had Surges, on Ashyn before it was broken. It's not just that they lived in a place without Stormlight, without that particular brand of Light; they were in a place with no Light at all. I think the story is about the way humans first came into Investiture. (Using the term to mean "magic" here; yes, Investiture comprises everything, but this is referring to the magical, the supernatural, the very reason this is a fantasy series.) There was a time when Humans were apart from God, and didn't have Investiture; but something changed, and someone took Investiture, and their actions spread to the rest of humanity. Something great, something terrible, and something that could never be undone. The version of this story that grew on Roshar took influence from their history with the Singers; parallels of humanity stealing something is not hard to find within our own world, and it is the same in the cosmere.

 

The White Hair

There is one very important clue that is in Shallan's version, but not in Hoid's. Shallan, without realizing why, made the girl's hair white at one point in the story. But she always called her a girl; never said she became an old woman. White hair, on someone who's not old, has always been a mark of Hoid. I think this is a story about Hoid, about what he did to change the very way humanity interacted with Investiture. Hoid, as an architect of the Shattering. The version of this story on Roshar may have become about a girl, but I think the original inspiration for that girl was none other than our mysterious worldhopper.

Hoid asked a very peculiar question of Shallan during his telling of it:

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“And so,” Wit said, “she decided that the only way she’d find answers would be to climb the wall herself.” He glanced at Shallan. “Was she stupid or bold?”

“How should I know?”

“Wrong answer. She was both.”

“It wasn’t stupid. If nobody asked questions, then we would never learn anything.”

“What of the wisdom of her elders?”

“They offered no explanation for why she shouldn’t ask about the wall! No rationalization, no justification. There’s a difference between listening to your elders and just being as frightened as everyone else.”

Wit smiled, the sphere in his hand lighting his face. “Funny, isn’t it, how so many of our stories start the same way, but have opposing endings? In half, the child ignores her parents, wanders out into the woods, and gets eaten. In the other half she discovers great wonders. There aren’t many stories about the kids who say, ‘Yes, I shall not go into the forest. I’m glad my parents explained that is where the monsters live.’ ”

Hoid is certainly not a child who stayed out of the woods, and he's at the crux of all the Cosmere stories. Imagine that he is asking Shallan what she thinks about him, about what he did to help prepare for the Shattering. He ultimately did not take a Shard, but he could have been one of them, and they all know who he is. He calls himself bold, for seeking to take the power of Adonalsium. And he calls himself stupid, for unleashing the Shards upon the cosmere.

 

In Conclusion

Yes, the historical context of the story makes it clear that this version was developed after the humans arrived on Roshar, and it draws much of its setting from the way humans took the planet, the spren, and the Storms from the Singers. But there's also a deeper meaning, from a time before the humans had a God, before they had any Light, before they had Investiture, before they had Shards. They took the Light, they killed their God and took His power upon themselves, and the universe has never been the same since. But none are willing to go back to how it was before, to give up their Light.

[Kaladin Zahel]

Well done.

My only contrary thought to this is that I believe there were pre-shatterring magics and investitures.

This is a very thought provoking post though. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I've said this before, I think like Pagerunner that this is a parable about how Hoid, like Prometheus, stole the power of Adonalsium to try and bring this power to human kind. I think this is the reason for his appellation "Bearer of the first gem".

I actually asked Brandon at the Portland Oathbringer release signing if Hoid was the girl who looked up. He seemed shocked when I asked that first bit, but I then added some other over-reaching questions that muddied the WoB waters to the point where he could safely give the non-committal answer that "that's not right, but thinking along the right lines".

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Added the link to my post with the expanded paraphrased wob explanation

[Juanaton]

I think there might be another piece of evidence towards this that you perhaps didn’t notice because of your focus only on the two versions of this one story. If you look at all the other stories Hoid tells, he doesn’t give any definitive answers to anything. He tells the story and the listener decides on the moral. In this one he makes a declaration and contradicts Shallan when she says “How should I know?” Hoid makes clear the girl was BOTH bold and foolish, 

[+Child of Hodor]

I like this idea. Hoid is hinting at his own past.

A parallel I found in thinking about how people lived in darkness in Hoid's story was the Singers. They are made more dangerous by having their souls restored, but now they can truly live again and understand the world, unlike how they were before where they were in slave form. They couldn't take god's light into their hearts, because they couldn't connect to spren and let them into their gemhearts. Now they've been healed. 

I don't think this is the important secret truth Brandon implies that Hoid is hinting at, Hoid's role in the Shattering fits, but it is a connection I noticed. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Slimy_Slider]

I like the ideas here and I think you are probably very close with the metaphorical nature of the Story. As to the Rosharan Historical basis, I have my own theory that Hoid, as the girl who looked up, was responsible for triggering the desolations.

He was close to the Singers at the time of the first desolations, his POV chapter at the end of OB mentions that he had danced with one of the fused before. As they were the original Singers who went to Odium, this implies pretty strongly that he was there.

Hoid also mentions that if Odium and his forces discovered him in Kholinar, then the entire city would be Raysed (Sorry-not-Sorry). For the most part, the Fused seem to follow Odium but they are shown to disagree with him on some issues. Destroying an entire city which could be used by the new Singers is likely not something they would be eager to do and while Odium could force or threaten them, it would still be somewhat reluctant. Unless of course, the Fused themselves had a vested interest in finding him. Again, this is supported by more in-text references, as Hoid states that they had been "Trained to watch for him".

 

So at one point, just before the desolations began, Hoid was besties with the Singers and now they all hate his guts enough to annihilate an entire city. I can only think of one thing which would cause such a rapid turnaround: Betrayal.

Assuming that Hoid betrayed the Singers, by stealing Stormlight (God's Light could also apply here, as Stormlight is investiture and Adonalsium was basically a ton of Investiture) or otherwise prompting a human invasion. Possibly this could even relate to the betrayal of the spren referenced by the Listeners in WoR, where they swapped Singers for the more engaging Humans.

As to why he would do this, Hoid has already told Dalinar that he would be willing to destroy Roshar for his goals. If starting thousands of years of war resulted in trapping Odium (and potentially defeating him, depending on how the series goes), would it be worth it to him? I think so.

But hey, that's just a theory...

A cosmere crackpot theory!

Thanks for putting up with my insane ranting reading, feel free to put your helpful comments expertly WoB-supported refutations below.

[Subvisual Haze]

It's the monomyth.

[Valigus]

I disagree on some ways I think it’s parallels to stone shamanism are too obvious to ignore. 

but I think you miss the significance of the white hair it tells us who the girl is, it’s ash. 
I think while it does make sense to carry metaphorical and emotional significance Brandon seems to very often have hoid tell stories that are both metaphorically true and hunt at dealer truths but also have real word implications. For example fleet is both a emotionally recent story to kaladin and also clearly true in some historical context because multiple people see him striding through the storm.

but if the wall is shinovars mountains or the barrier between roshar and ashyn then the heralds must be alive as normal people at this point
I think it unlikely to be ashyn due to no mention of any catastrophe.

we also know ash was either born on ashyn and crossed at a very young age or was born on roshar.

so the idea is either ash somehow breaks into the cognitive realm and gets to roshar as a young girl or crosses the mountains of shinovar. I think it’s the latter considering the complacency of the people If they just crossed over form a dying world I doubt they woudl really want to expand at the moment, but childish curiosity wouldn’t care especially if she knew nothing of where they came from.

additionally shallan constantly superimposes herself on the girl but when doing so the girls hair changes white without her meaning to, this is the worst evidence but ash is the Lightweavers herald so there is a connection.

 

this is a terrible way of explaining it but the evidence and logic of the story lines up too neatly your interpretation is interesting but if there is a historical truth to this story I find it more likely to be about ash, because idk why a story about parshmen woudl have been told to hoid or one about his own past that doesn’t make sense

Edited October 4, 2020 by Valigus

[+ILuvHats]

@Valigus Of course you’re free to disagree, but I think Hoid is still a better candidate than Shalash. There are only three pieces if evidence pointing to Shalash being the girl who looked up. 1) She was young when humans arrived on Roshar, which is when many people think the historical events that inspired the story took place. This is extremely circumstantial evidence; she simply happened to be the right age at what many think is the right time. 2) In the endpapers of OB, Ash is portrayed with white hair. To be honest, I have serious doubts whether her hair is actually white. In the books, she’s described as having dark black hair, and while she could be dying it, we have no confirmation, unlike Hoid. Plus, her hair in the image is extremely stylized and geometric looking, to the point it looks nothing like realistic hair. This suggests that it’s likely symbolic, with the white glow of the hair possibly referring to the light based powers of the order she stands for. It’s up to debate, but suffice to say, we’re more certain Hoid has white hair than Shalash. 3) Ash is a girl while Hoid is not. This could be explained through gender bending over millennia of the story being retold, as the OP suggests. Perhaps the story could have even been inspired by Hoid originally, and then taken inspiration from Ash as the tale was passed down on Roshar. This is made more likely if I’m wrong about Ash’s hair. 

Meanwhile, Hoid lines up nicely with the facts. I won’t repeat all of the OP’s points, but they feel very cohesive and logical to me. The main problem I think you have is that the story is too obviously Rosharan in its setting to be about Hoid, based on your comments about stone shamanism and the wall referring to the Misted Mountains. But Pagerunner addressed this in his conclusion, that while yes, the story is heavily influenced by the human-Singer conflict and Roshar in general, there are deeper inspirations tracing their origins to the beginning of the cosmere. Also, I had trouble understanding your post, so maybe if you explained it more concisely I’d understand better why you disagree with the theory.