Investiture across the Cosmere (WoR spoilers)

[darniil]

I just finished Words of Radiance last night (not much time to read, plus I like to savor my books).  I wanted to wait until I finished it before I posted my thoughts on this.

 

Hoid has an ability from Yolen called Lightweaving.  As the WoR Ars Arcanum states, there is also an ability on Roshar with the same name that is very similar.  Similar, but distinct, and distinct likely because the Yolish version does not involve spren.

 

However, when Hoid visits Kaladin in prison, he says something that tells the readers that he is, at that point in time, at least at the Second Heightening.  We also know, according to WoB, that he uses feruchemy to determine where he needs to be. (Chromium, perhaps?  Eh, that's a tangent.)

 

What isn't tangential is that Hoid originates on neither Nalthis nor Scadrial, yet he's able to use Investiture that originates from those planets, Investiture that should only be accessible to people with the appropriate spiritual DNA.  Yet Hoid, to the knowledge of the fans, has three Investitures (if Yolish Lightweaving can be considered an Investiture).  This could mean that Hoid is using hemalurgy.

 

However, as near as I can tell, Hoid is not an evil man.  He may do things that aren't nice, but not for the purpose of being mean or bringing harm.  In his interactions with the various protagonists, he's generally been helpful.  (I could certainly see the Ghostbloods using hemalurgy, but it seems unlikely to me that Hoid would.)

 

After thinking the thought that Hoid probably does not have any hemalurgic spikes in him, I was hit with this thought: what if Investiture in general is like allomancy - you get one, or you get them all?  (Also, I guess, like feruchemy.)

 

When Kelsier tested Vin, he didn't stop with one metal.  He tested a second one, because he knew if she could burn two metals, she could burn all the allomantic metals.  And here we have evidence that Hoid, who does not have Nalthian or Scadrian sDNA, has access to both of their Investitures.

 

I spoke with Joe ST about this briefly, and he thought that Hoid might have the ability to alter his own sDNA such that he could make himself capable of using whichever Investitures he wanted.  I'll admit that we know little enough about Hoid that this could be possible, but I also wanted to see if anyone else out there disagreed with my thoughts on this, and if so, why.

 

So please, poke some holes in this.  If I'm wrong, tell me why.  I'd like to know if I'm totally off course here.

[Robot Aztec]

hoid doesnt glow like ealatrin so he doesnt have that I think

[Baine]

Well, we know that Hoid has a bead of Lerasium, and Breaths are easy to come by in Nalthis if you have enough money... but I don't know how he could use Feruchemy.

 

Ooh! Maybe he stole an Inquisitor's spikes!

[darniil]

hoid doesnt glow like ealatrin so he doesnt have that I think

 

That's true.  However, just because he hasn't used something in front of us doesn't mean he doesn't have it.  Also, the dor may be difficult to use on Roshar (or any other planet), since physical proximity to Elantris is important.

 

Well, we know that Hoid has a bead of Lerasium, and Breaths are easy to come by in Nalthis if you have enough money... but I don't know how he could use Feruchemy.

 

Ooh! Maybe he stole an Inquisitor's spikes!

 

He does have the bead of lerasium, but I don't think there's any evidence that he's used it.  Some people think that he's stashed it away somewhere.  Stashed it, perhaps, because he can already use allomancy, and he's saving the bead for someone else.

 

Breaths are easy to come by, but could a Shin accept a Breath given to her?  Or a Terrisman?  I was thinking that without Nalthian sDNA, someone could try to give you a whole host of Breaths, but you couldn't be a receptacle for them and therefore couldn't actually take any.

 

I don't know how he could use feruchemy, either, but check the link in my first post and you'll see where Brandon said he does have it.

 

He could have stolen some spikes, but I thought I read somewhere that Brandon said a spike will degrade if it's removed from an Inquisitor.  (Maybe I'm mis-remembering that, though, since Vin's earring didn't seem to degrade when she had it removed.)

 

[GreyPilgrim]

Remember also that moment when he was talking to Shallan in a flashback and used Allomancy, so he most likely burned his lerasium (also  suggested by the Letter). That explains his access to that. Don't know how he could have gotten Feruchemy, though we have had discussions before of a way to obtain that similarly to how one can obtain Allomancy with lerasium. I don't really feel that one could need a particular type of sDNA to accept a Breath, however. Breath is basically pure Investiture that can be taken into the body, similar to Stormlight. My guess is that Hoid simply got Breaths like any Nalthian can, like Baine said.

[RShara]

I suspect that Yolen DNA is kind of an archtype DNA, that has the *potential* to hold any of the other magic systems.  So he could use Breath, and anything else that doesn't require a specific bond/add-on power.

[Anomandaris]

hoid doesnt glow like ealatrin so he doesnt have that I think

 

Well Vasher is able to suppress his Returned aura, perhaps Elantrians just haven't figured out that particular trick, or maybe Hoid is just far enough away.

 

On the other hand, I'd be kinda surprised if he actually was Elantrian, but perhaps there is a way to acquire some of their powers in the same way that you can use Lerasium or be an Awakener/5th Heightening without being Returned.

[darniil]

Remember also that moment when he was talking to Shallan in a flashback and used Allomancy, so he most likely burned his lerasium (also  suggested by the Letter). That explains his access to that. Don't know how he could have gotten Feruchemy, though we have had discussions before of a way to obtain that similarly to how one can obtain Allomancy with lerasium. I don't really feel that one could need a particular type of sDNA to accept a Breath, however. Breath is basically pure Investiture that can be taken into the body, similar to Stormlight. My guess is that Hoid simply got Breaths like any Nalthian can, like Baine said.

 

I just read someone's thread pointing out how he poured something into his drink in that flashback.  I'm going to have to re-read that tonight when I get home, since I glossed over it the first time.

 

You may be right about there not being a special sDNA requirement to accept Breaths or Stormlight.  I'm not yet convinced that that's the case for either of them, but you may be right.

 

I suspect that Yolen DNA is kind of an archtype DNA, that has the *potential* to hold any of the other magic systems.  So he could use Breath, and anything else that doesn't require a specific bond/add-on power.

 

That's one of the thoughts that ran through my head - that either something about Yolish humans gives them potential access to all Investitures, or perhaps anyone who was around pre-Shattering would potentially have access to all Investitures.  They'd still have to "learn" them, but they would have the potential to learn them.

 

Well Vasher is able to suppress his Returned aura, perhaps Elantrians just haven't figured out that particular trick, or maybe Hoid is just far enough away.

 

On the other hand, I'd be kinda surprised if he actually was Elantrian, but perhaps there is a way to acquire some of their powers in the same way that you can use Lerasium or be an Awakener/5th Heightening without being Returned.

 

Well, whatever Hoid is doing, he's certainly devoted enough to it to trigger a Shaod in someone from Sel.

[GreyPilgrim]

Of all the Investitures we know, I find it least likely that Hoid is an Elantrian; really, I doubt he has any Selish Investiture, as they are so geography-bound. He may know how to use Bloodsealing and Forgery, as those seem a bit more universal. Or should I say cosmerical.

 

Edit: darniil, you have managed to ninja me twice in the same thread. I congratulate you.

Edited April 2, 2014 by GreyPilgrim

[Moogle]

We have WoB that Hoid does not have access to all of the magic systems of the worlds he's been to.

 

We also know that he originally intended to get lerasium to become an Allomancer.

 

I don't think Yolish DNA is special - Hoid just has some special knowledge, and possibly some Hemalurgic spikes.

[darniil]

Edit: darniil, you have managed to ninja me twice in the same thread. I congratulate you.

 

Apparently I did it to myself, too, as I didn't even realize I did it.  >_>

 

We have WoB that Hoid does not have access to all of the magic systems of the worlds he's been to.

 

We also know that he originally intended to get lerasium to become an Allomancer.

 

I don't think Yolish DNA is special - Hoid just has some special knowledge, and possibly some Hemalurgic spikes.

 

We do have WoB for that?  That's great.  I'll try to find that, then.  Thank you.  

[Moogle]

We do have WoB for that?  That's great.  I'll try to find that, then.  Thank you.  

 

Here's the WoBs:

 

Q:  Has Hoid used his Lerasium Bead for Feruchemy?

A:  Hoid got the bead originally because he wanted to become an Allomancer.

 

Q:  Is Wit/Hoid an Allomancer?

A:  He did steal a bead of Lerasium off of Scadrial.  If he were to make use of that bead, certain powers would have been gained.

Q:  Does Hoid have all the abilities of the planets he's visited?

A:  Not yet.

(source, thanks RShara)

[Kurkistan]

We also have WoB that anyone can receive/use Breath.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2745-signing-reports/#entry90139

[Robot Aztec]

 

We also have WoB that anyone can receive/use Breath.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2745-signing-reports/#entry90139

but not use for awaken jus out of box

[Kurkistan]

“If a native of Sel or another Shardworld travelled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?”

Brandon almost answered quickly, but then got a thoughtful look and paused to consider with a “hmm.” After a moment, he replied “No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their breath.”

“If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?”

“No, they cannot Return.”

“If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?”

“Yes.”

[darniil]

Thank you, Moogle and Kurkistan for the WoBs.  

[Robot Aztec]

 

“If a native of Sel or another Shardworld travelled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?”

Brandon almost answered quickly, but then got a thoughtful look and paused to consider with a “hmm.” After a moment, he replied “No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their breath.”

“If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?”

“No, they cannot Return.”

“If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?”

“Yes.”

I didn't get a HUGE amount out of my time in line. My ears turned red and I stumbled on the English language and I really wish I had recorded his precise answers. The following is paraphrased:

Q: Could you make a Spike from a Lifeless?

A: "Oooo interesting!" He said their soul is so drained there wouldn't be much left, so you could only get the barest hint.

Q: But you COULD technically get a charge

A: Yes, but it would be very weak.

Q: I asked him to clarify a past WoB we went 'round and around on in the past. Basically, what happens when non-Nalthians come to Nalthis.

A: they cannot use their own soul to Awaken but could do so with obtained Breath.

Q: So anyone could start Awakening once they received Breaths (this is what it sounded like he was saying so I put it to him simply)

A: You would probably have to jump through some hoops to Awaken (talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets), but anyone can benefit from a Breath. Essentially said "it's not that easy!"[/quoet]

[Kurkistan]

Ah, I think I see what you're getting at now, Robot. A tad more clarity would be helpful in the future.

 

Yes, there are some hoops that our dear Hoid would have to jump through to actually Awaken, he couldn't just do it "out of the box". But I'm fairly confident that Mr. "I can use Allomancy on Roshar" would be able to figure it out, and he can definitely benefit from the Heightenings without any hoop-jumping.

[EddyRed]

A query in the bead of Lerasium: would Hoid have to consume the whole bead or could he chip off a fragment and gain part of, if not the whole effect?

[Tempus]

Okay, so here is my mysterious question.

 

Hoid uses Feruchemy to decide where he needs to be. Hoid also jumps forward in time (he doesn't live ALL the years). But, Hoid is from Yolen, around the time of the shattering. It's known that many thousands of years passed since the shattering (Desolations are post-shattering, and at least 4500 years old, probably a lot more). Mistborn, however, takes place only a few hundred years prior to Stormlight Archive, though.

 

When exactly did Hoid get Feruchemy? My best guess is that we have a WoB that the Worldsingers and the Terris Worldbringers are not coincidental, and thus at some point when Hoid may or may not have helped found the Terris Worldbringer religion he picked up feruchemy in some unknown manner.

 

 

Do we have any more details on this, or on his mysterious time hopping?

[Chromium Compounder]

When exactly did Hoid get Feruchemy? My best guess is that we have a WoB that the Worldsingers and the Terris Worldbringers are not coincidental, and thus at some point when Hoid may or may not have helped found the Terris Worldbringer religion he picked up feruchemy in some unknown manner.

 

 

Do we have any more details on this, or on his mysterious time hopping?

I would say that's a pretty good guess, but we don't know anything about Feruchemy's origins.  We know awfully little about Allomancy's origins.  

 

What we know about Allomancy is that it's stronger and more common in the bloodlines of those who have ingested Lerasium, and only through Lerasium and the bloodlines from it can someone become Mistborn.  However, we know that Lerasium is not the origin of Mistings, and that the rules about Allomancy only being in noble families is not true.  Allomancy can happen among pure Skaa, otherwise the rule of 16s which they noticed in HoA wouldn't have been possible.  The only exceptions to the rule of 16s are the Terris people.  Pure Terris people cannot have Allomancy without Lerasium.  

 

I think to understand why we would need to know more about the origins of Scadrian humans and Scadrian Investiture.

[Viper]

If ya'll don't mind a relative newcomer jumping in:

 

We know that people with one type of investiture can use another - Vashar's hanging out on Roshar because he burns a breath a day on Nalthis, but he can get stormlight much more easily to replace the investiture on Roshar.

Also, if Hoid can use Feruchemy, he could use nicrosil to store investiture ... ?

 

 

 

 

The question of where Hoid got Feruchem yis fascinating, but remember that Feruchemy is end-neutral (not positive or negative) so there's a chance that it's not really of preservation or ruin, but of adonalsium.

 

Also, Lerasium gives people allomancy ... but only if burned on Scadrial.  What if he burned it in Shadesmar?

[GreyPilgrim]

If ya'll don't mind a relative newcomer jumping in:

We know that people with one type of investiture can use another - Vashar's hanging out on Roshar because he burns a breath a day on Nalthis, but he can get stormlight much more easily to replace the investiture on Roshar.

Also, if Hoid can use Feruchemy, he could use nicrosil to store investiture ... ?

The question of where Hoid got Feruchem yis fascinating, but remember that Feruchemy is end-neutral (not positive or negative) so there's a chance that it's not really of preservation or ruin, but of adonalsium.

Also, Lerasium gives people allomancy ... but only if burned on Scadrial. What if he burned it in Shadesmar?

He could definitely use nicrosil to store Investiture.

Also, Feruchemy is considered to be of both Preservation and Ruin.

I don't think Hoid could burn lerasium in Shadesmar, unless he can enter it in the flesh. Which is guess is actually rather likely, as he Worldhops.

[WeiryWriter]

It wouldn't matter where he burned it he would become mistborn.  (There are other things you can do with burning lerasium but becoming mistborn is the default)   I don't think being in the Cognitive Realm as opposed to the Physical Realm would have any effect on that.

[Robot Aztec]

 

I would say that's a pretty good guess, but we don't know anything about Feruchemy's origins. &n

Whek now perservation gave it to anceint terrismen!