Unrestricted Hemalurgy

[Quantus]

Assume you are a worldhopper with a ready supply of some useful Godmetal, and you know ALL the secrets of Metallurgy (Unkeyed Coppermind, tutored by Ati's own ghost, whatever). Now also assume you dont think (or dont care) that too much hemaurgy on one person can potentially cause bad, unintended side effects.  You just want to use Spikes to get ALL the power. 

 

What would your shopping/hit list look like?

 

Mine so far:

-General physical and mental enhancement

-All Mistborn

-All Feruchemy

-a Divine Breathe (to anchor the Heightenings and grant some control over my Physical form, Id still buy an awakening supply.  Still need to feed it weekly if granted via hemalurgy and not the natural Cognitive Shadow method?)

-The Royal Locks (for infinite Color, assume purchase of normal Breaths)

-Elantrian-ness (maybe, I dont need to be able to use the Dor Offworld, but Id want to be able to travel unrestricted)

-a Nahel Bond (not sure the preferred Order yet, need to see the options)

-A Larkin's ability to Eat Investiture

-Lift's Stormlight Metabolism, assuming wouldnt block other Investiture sources like the Larking ability or metallic arts, etc

-Mr.T's Boon/Curse, which I think could be well balanced and/or mitigated with Feruchemy, specifically Zinc, Copper, and Electrum)

-The Rhythms

 

Thoughts? Other options?

[Weltall]

We're well beyond min-maxing here and into outright godmode hax.  I also think Frankenstein's Monster would take a look at the resulting twisted abomination and feel sorry for it... and Harmony could turn you into a fingerpuppet at any time with that many spikes.

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

-All Mistborn

-All Feruchemy

if you want all the Metallic Arts powers you'd either run out of room for more spikes (that's thirty-four separate spikes if you want atium as well as the sixteen base metals) or you'd need the Bands of Mourning or an equivalent copy.

Quote

-a Divine Breathe (to anchor the Heightenings and grant some control over my Physical form, Id still buy an awakening supply.  Still need to feed it weekly if granted via hemalurgy and not the natural Cognitive Shadow method?)

Uhhh, with all the powers you're hypothetically amassing you wouldn't need to worry too much, since the Divine Breath doesn't care what you feed it so long as it gets an amount of Investiture equivalent to a Breath every Nalthian week. You could probably feed it Investiture from compounded feruchemical storage and you could definitely feed it Stormlight. I suspect that a hemalurgic Divine Breath would still need to be fed or it would dissipate, but since it's not actually anchoring your mind/soul to your body like it is for a Returned, it wouldn't kill you if this happened.

Quote

-Elantrian-ness (maybe, I dont need to be able to use the Dor Offworld, but Id want to be able to travel unrestricted)

Galladon shows that Elantrians can travel freely, they just lose the visible signs of it and the ability to use AonDor. For my part, despite the amazing potential of AonDor if you can make it work at a distance, I'd avoid this one for two reasons. First, you'd be in a lot of trouble if there was ever a second Reod. Second and more likely, Brandon has said that it's very exhausting to be an Elantrian. I figure it's not worth it, if I decided i want immortality for any reason I'd go for a natural accumulation of Breaths until I hit the Fifth Heightening. So far as we know it's the most consequence-free method (unless you count being unable to get drunk as a negative), it comes with nice benefits in terms of color and tonal appreciation and you can Awaken with it as well.

Quote

-a Nahel Bond (not sure the preferred Order yet, need to see the options)

While Brandon has indicated that it's possible to steal a Nahel Bond without killing the spren, he's also said that 'it wouldn't end well' and even trying to do it would be a very dangerous thing. Go to Roshar with spikes and Odium or one of the Unmade might just come knocking on your door. Also, that spiritweb damage is going to drive most spren away and the more you do, the more likely the spren is going to decide it wants out.

 

All that aside, if I were going to go wild with hemalurgy and didn't let the ethics of it get in the way, I'd go for a smaller slate of metalborn powers. A/F-Steel for both powers being awesome and the ability to compound the latter, plus F-Zinc and F-Copper. Four spikes. Then two spikes (one for regional Connection and one for the power) to gain Forgery and I'd leave the option open for another spike or two in order to make that power work away from MaiPon, assuming that there's some combination of stealable traits that can appropriately hack the system to get around Sel's region-locking. Call it seven or eight spikes total. A that point I'm definitely starting to resemble a pincushion but I've got a nice selection of powers with a lot of flexibility. Rule number one from that point on: Chat with Harmony often and make sure to not get on his bad side. That many spikes, definitely open to direct control.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Weltall

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

We're well beyond min-maxing here and into outright godmode hax.  I also think Frankenstein's Monster would take a look at the resulting twisted abomination and feel sorry for it... and Harmony could turn you into a fingerpuppet at any time with that many spikes.

Oh my yes, this would be ridiculous both in the physical fallout or the potential conflict with Harmony.  So for the sake of Argument lets say this being is indented to be Discord's Champion out to cause undirected chaos, so that's not as much an issue.   Even assuming he's still more or less the Sazed Harmony we know and Love, he might leave you alone the same way he seems to disagree with Marsh but leave him alone. 

 

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

if you want all the Metallic Arts powers you'd either run out of room for more spikes (that's thirty-four separate spikes if you want atium as well as the sixteen base metals) or you'd need the Bands of Mourning or an equivalent copy.

I thought that too, and it's still a concern, but according to hero of ages (per the Coppermind Wiki at least, cant confirm right now) there are 2-3 hundred bind points on the human body, that's enough for me to handwave the limit even if some points are restricted to certain traits.  There's also the implication that trellium godmetals let you steal multiple allowmantic or feruchemcial traits (was that on a single spike or still one ability per spike?).   Either way I think it can technically be done with spikes alone and no Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds. Though that's like 20% of all the Bind points right there.

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Uhhh, with all the powers you're hypothetically amassing you wouldn't need to worry too much, since the Divine Breath doesn't care what you feed it so long as it gets an amount of Investiture equivalent to a Breath every Nalthian week. You could probably feed it Investiture from compounded feruchemical storage and you could definitely feed it Stormlight. I suspect that a hemalurgic Divine Breath would still need to be fed or it would dissipate, but since it's not actually anchoring your mind/soul to your body like it is for a Returned, it wouldn't kill you if this happened.

I like the divine breath to have Heightenings that are not tied to your active Awakening supply, but the real big ability Id be after is the Returned's ability to so consciously dictate and manipulate their Physical Form, whcih I think would do a lot to help mitigate the physical fallout of too much hemaurgy.  That kind of assumes the ability would persist even if it's not actually achoring you to the body, so without that it's probably not worth the upkeep. 

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Galladon shows that Elantrians can travel freely, they just lose the visible signs of it and the ability to use AonDor. For my part, despite the amazing potential of AonDor if you can make it work at a distance, I'd avoid this one for two reasons. First, you'd be in a lot of trouble if there was ever a second Reod. Second and more likely, Brandon has said that it's very exhausting to be an Elantrian. I figure it's not worth it, if I decided i want immortality for any reason I'd go for a natural accumulation of Breaths until I hit the Fifth Heightening. So far as we know it's the most consequence-free method (unless you count being unable to get drunk as a negative), it comes with nice benefits in terms of color and tonal appreciation and you can Awaken with it as well.

Ah, nice, didnt know that one. He say's its "emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian" which makes it the hardest form of Immortality out there.  As always on this topic, I think this could be solved with another Spike! In this case a big old dose of Zinc and copper spikes for mental and emotional fortitude should do the trick.

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

While Brandon has indicated that it's possible to steal a Nahel Bond without killing the spren, he's also said that 'it wouldn't end well' and even trying to do it would be a very dangerous thing. Go to Roshar with spikes and Odium or one of the Unmade might just come knocking on your door. Also, that spiritweb damage is going to drive most spren away and the more you do, the more likely the spren is going to decide it wants out.

I dont think that would be an issue, that WOB is about how the presence of Spikes would make you unpalatable to most Spren to form a natural bond initially (unless they are less discriminating like Voidspren).  If you are instead stealing a pre-exisitng Bond from a disposable Radiant, and so long as you maintain the Ideals, the Spren will be safe (if not happy) though they would still be able to voluntarily end the Bond at any time.  But enough Connection manipulation should solve that, MAKE them love you as much as their original Radiant. 

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

All that aside, if I were going to go wild with hemalurgy and didn't let the ethics of it get in the way, I'd go for a smaller slate of metalborn powers. A/F-Steel for both powers being awesome and the ability to compound the latter, plus F-Zinc and F-Copper. Four spikes. Then two spikes (one for regional Connection and one for the power) to gain Forgery and I'd leave the option open for another spike or two in order to make that power work away from MaiPon, assuming that there's some combination of stealable traits that can appropriately hack the system to get around Sel's region-locking. Call it seven or eight spikes total. A that point I'm definitely starting to resemble a pincushion but I've got a nice selection of powers with a lot of flexibility. Rule number one from that point on: Chat with Harmony often and make sure to not get on his bad side. That many spikes, definitely open to direct control.

I dont know about the A/F Steel, in terms of physical mobility powers I think I prefer the Windrunner Surges, though bullet-time is fun (I think Id have more fun with speed bubbles, personally). 

I forgot about Forgery entirely!  Which is weird because it's the only magic system I consider more versatile than Hemalurgy.  Definitely need to add that to the List, though maybe only after I use all the other crazy powers to steal the Moon Scepter and maaaybe have a chance to use these things off-world.

 

 

 

 

[+Sorana]

My only Problem is: I don't want to spike myself.

I mean the powers are great, but to live with spikes in my body for the rest of my live? No Thanks...

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:40 PM, Sorana said:

My only Problem is: I don't want to spike myself.

I mean the powers are great, but to live with spikes in my body for the rest of my live? No Thanks...

That's a good point, also there's the possibility of Shardic puppetry, physical pain, deformation, insanity, having to deal with the guilt of murdering scores of people for your powerups-- lots of downsides. You might even say that prolific Hemalurgists are actively Ruining themselves and the world around them. Clever, Brandon, very clever. 

As you can imagine from my poasting gimmick, I've thought about this way too much, and I don't think I'd ever want more than three spikes if I were to do it. Sazed's a cool guy and all, but I don't know if I want him making unscheduled appearances in my head. The first spike would be for A-Steel, because being a Coinshot would be cool as hell. The second and third I'd keep as "floating spikes" in case I'd find a cooler magic system off Scadrial we don't know about yet: one spike for the Connection, one for the power itself.

All this changes if we ever definitively find out what happens if you Allomantically burn a Hemalurgic spike. If the "sDNA splice" gives you the same effect as inserting the spike normally, then I'm burning two Steel spikes charged with A-Iron and A-Steel, removing my original A-Steel spike, and replacing it with a spike for F-Nicrosil. 

And I would never, ever spike abilities from animals. Not until we get more information about what happens.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist

[Spaceferring]

Can you spike out the Shardicness from a Shard's Vessel? If yes, I'll take that. If not, 2 spikes for A- and F-steel for Compunding and flying. 

[Agent34]

3 hours ago, Spacefaring Ferring said:

Can you spike out the Shardicness from a Shard's Vessel? If yes, I'll take that. If not, 2 spikes for A- and F-steel for Compunding and flying. 

There's probably not a spike big enough to steal a Shard.

As for this approach I'm not sure having all those powers is worth the mental damage and opening yourself up to outside control. It's not just Harmony you'd need to worry about, after all. Not to mention being unable to make it through a metal detector at the airport!

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

If stealing a Connection to a foreign Shard allows you to burn their godmetal, that might be an interesting ability to have. Imagine being the only edglium or bavadinium (or raysium) Misting in the world.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist

[Bigmikey357]

Another potential problem with adding so many spikes is potentially becoming an entirely different life form. Koloss have 5 spikes, traditional Inquisitors have between 8 and 10, Kandra have 2. What if you misplace a spike and become some type of one of a kind inhuman monster with unpleasant or at least unpredictable characteristics? With 300 some bind points in the human body, it's likely difficult to pinpoint an exact bind point using a spike composed of the right metal without a Shard (Ati preferably since it's his magic system or Sazed as his successor)guiding your hand. To mitigate the metal composition issue you would have to have all Atium-composed spikes. But your hand better not slip, either when taking the ability or gaining it. Also, is there any way to tell what hemalurgic charge a spike has before you charge yourself?  I mean you know what effect you were going for presumably, but is there any way to be sure? Because it would suck if you were trying for A-Steel but missed the bindpoint on the coinshot you murdered. Not knowing you didn't charge the spike would be really bad because instead of gaining A-Steel you just stabbed yourself in the eye.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

I'm pretty sure to charge a spike you don't need to do anything but stab the victim through the heart and kill them, but other than that your points are valid. That's another good reason to start out with A-Steel: we already know two bind points for certain. Either through the eye or the heart. Sure, you may still screw up and end up killing yourself, but at least you know what you're aiming for, and probably won't turn into a twisted monstrosity. 

Also, how counterproductive is it to gain Breaths through Hemalurgy? Just pop over to Nalthis and buy some, ya goon! (Just remember to declare them at Shadesmar Customs when you leave.)

[Spaceferring]

18 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Not to mention being unable to make it through a metal detector at the airport!

Actually, I wonder if the fact that you can't see Invested metal with Steelsight also apply to metal detectors and magnetics in general. 

[Krios]

On 15.8.2018 at 10:36 PM, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

All this changes if we ever definitively find out what happens if you Allomantically burn a Hemalurgic spike. If the "sDNA splice" gives you the same effect as inserting the spike normally, then I'm burning two Steel spikes charged with A-Iron and A-Steel, removing my original A-Steel spike, and replacing it with a spike for F-Nicrosil. 

Yes, I would also like to very much know the answer to that questions. Mainly because Hemalurgy is the most fascinating magic to me, followed by Awakening.

 

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

source

 

I think this is the newest WoB on this topic. To me it suggests, that you will gain the power in the spike, but also warp your soul during the process. Maybe that just means a personality change or even a change in physical appearance, when you use healing magic the next time. But would this method create cracks in your spiritweb or not? Hemalurgy and insanity does so, but you are essentially adding more soul to your own permanently, maybe that would fill up the cracks. If this is the case, you could circumvent shardic control by doing this.

Also you could just get yourself two spikes, that contain A&F-Nicrosil and tada Fullborn. Plus people with thoes abilities are way easier to kill than a coinshot. The whole hunting someone for their power is something, that seems to be disregarded a lot, but would actually be pretty dangerous. I eman try stealing the surge of transformation from Jasnah or A-steel from Wax without having any powers yourself.

Obviously you should first aquire some form of immortality, so you have all the time you need. I would go for buying breaths up to the sixth heightening, for eternity and deeper knowledge about awakening.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

6 hours ago, Krios said:

Also you could just get yourself two spikes, that contain A&F-Nicrosil and tada Fullborn.

That's not how nicrosil works. I'm almost positive you can only store in it Investiture that you already have, in this case A-Nicrosil. It would make you an awesome team-player, but it won't just make you a Fullborn. The Bands of Mourning only worked like that because they were an amalgamation of unsealed metalminds of every Feruchemical metal, with the Allomancy of a Mistborn in the nicrosilmind portion. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist

[Quantus]

14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Another potential problem with adding so many spikes is potentially becoming an entirely different life form. Koloss have 5 spikes, traditional Inquisitors have between 8 and 10, Kandra have 2. What if you misplace a spike and become some type of one of a kind inhuman monster with unpleasant or at least unpredictable characteristics? With 300 some bind points in the human body, it's likely difficult to pinpoint an exact bind point using a spike composed of the right metal without a Shard (Ati preferably since it's his magic system or Sazed as his successor)guiding your hand. To mitigate the metal composition issue you would have to have all Atium-composed spikes. But your hand better not slip, either when taking the ability or gaining it. Also, is there any way to tell what hemalurgic charge a spike has before you charge yourself?  I mean you know what effect you were going for presumably, but is there any way to be sure? Because it would suck if you were trying for A-Steel but missed the bindpoint on the coinshot you murdered. Not knowing you didn't charge the spike would be really bad because instead of gaining A-Steel you just stabbed yourself in the eye.

One man's "problem" is another's opportunity.  This was intended to be more a discussion of possible combinations rather than the morality or personal damage, so for arguments sake consider the subject to be the Chosen Champion of Discord being built to go forth and sow chaos across the lands, with no real fear of becoming whatever pops out the other side of the process.

 

Yes, I was assuming either Atium or something like Trellium that seems to let you steal even more.  What "Metal Composition Issue" are you talking about, having the right metal for the right attribute?  That would be required to even attempt these, the person would need to KNOW the correct Bindpoints and metals to have the proper Intent whern harvesting.  I tend to think that knowledge is something only shard themselves (Ruin, Harmony, others?) would have.  Though who knows, a Fortune Compounder might be able to do anything (depending on how it ends up working).   

 

14 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

I'm pretty sure to charge a spike you don't need to do anything but stab the victim through the heart and kill them, but other than that your points are valid. That's another good reason to start out with A-Steel: we already know two bind points for certain. Either through the eye or the heart. Sure, you may still screw up and end up killing yourself, but at least you know what you're aiming for, and probably won't turn into a twisted monstrosity. 

Also, how counterproductive is it to gain Breaths through Hemalurgy? Just pop over to Nalthis and buy some, ya goon! (Just remember to declare them at Shadesmar Customs when you leave.)

You cant Spike normal Breaths any more than you can spike the Stormlight out of a person.  You can spike the Divine Breathe, however, but it a little unclear how it would behave if you hadnt literally Died first and been Returned to get it, Im after the Returned ability to so consciously control and dictate their Physical Aspect.  

 

 

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

Maybe spiking A-Atium first would help with later spike placements, based on this WOB: 

 

PhantoMonstrosity

Atium is the best metal to use for Hemalurgy. Does *burning* atium help you figure out where to put the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that gets you a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm could help with placing spikes.

PhantoMonstrosity

Would flaring iron and steel also help?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not without additional help.

source 

[Krios]

59 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

That's not how nicrosil works. I'm almost positive you can only store in it Investiture that you already have, in this case A-Nicrosil. It would make you an awesome team-player, but it won't just make you a Fullborn. The Bands of Mourning only worked like that because they were an amalgamation of unsealed metalminds of every Feruchemical metal, with the Allomancy of a Mistborn in the nicrosilmind portion. 

Sorry forgot to mention, that you would also need a full set of spikes of all other allomantic and feruchemical powers. With that you could basically make your own bands of mourning, which would never run out thanks to compounding as long as you have enough nicrosil.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

4 minutes ago, Krios said:

Sorry forgot to mention, that you would also need a full set of spikes of all other allomantic and feruchemical powers. With that you could basically make your own bands of mourning, which would never run out thanks to compounding as long as you have enough nicrosil.

Ah, okay. Good idea, well-Munchkined. But with a whopping 32+ spikes, take care not to tick off any Shards if you value your free will.

[Krios]

2 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Ah, okay. Good idea, well-Munchkined. But with a whopping 32+ spikes, take care not to tick off any Shards if you value your free will.

Okay I need to work on being more precise. My idea was:

1. Wear two spikes charged with A&F-Nicrosil

2. Add a third spike charged with whatever, for example A-steel

3. Store A-steel into a nicrosilmind.

4. Switch the third spike with another attribute.

5. Repeat 1-4.

6. Compound the attributes.

So no problem with shardic interference, because that only happens, when you have four spikes. Basically that is what I would do, then travel to Nalthis for breaths to reach the sixth heightening then get the surge of transformation.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Krios

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Krios said:

Sorry forgot to mention, that you would also need a full set of spikes of all other allomantic and feruchemical powers. With that you could basically make your own bands of mourning, which would never run out thanks to compounding as long as you have enough nicrosil.

You wouldn't even need spikes. Just get your hands on a medallion for each power, store a little in nicrosil and begin compounding to your hearts content. Every new medallion means one more power permanently gained. 

I'm waiting to see how Brandon breaks this, because nicrosil is entirely to OP with medallions. 

[Quantus]

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm waiting to see how Brandon breaks this, because nicrosil is entirely to OP with medallions. 

Im betting the "Excisor" part of the process is going to be hemalurgic, so the actual Soul-bearer population will limit to some extent.  Sounds gruesome to think they'd be spiking people for such a commodity, but well, Breaths.

 

Hmm, if there's to be a Soulbearer character in era 3, I wonder if there'd be  some kind of black market bounty on that sort of rare ferring.

[Krios]

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm waiting to see how Brandon breaks this, because nicrosil is entirely to OP with medallions. 

You could make an argument for it being even more op then being an actual fullborn, because fullborns dont get resonances and you could by manipulating the amount of metals and minds you are actively drawing power from.

Second thought, that argument is kinda weak, but still interesting idea.

[Serack]

*wave* hi quantus