What does seeing the future is of the Voidbringers REALLY mean?

[animalia]

I am trying to figure out different ways that sentence could be interpreted based on the peices of information we have.

Ok supposedly Seeing the future is of the Voidbringers. 

But now we have information that says that humans (or at least some of them) were the Voidbringers AT one point.

And we also have at LEAST one other Truthwatcher (according to the epigraphs) who could see the future.

Sja-Anat makes IMPLICATIONs that lead us to believe that Glys is her son but we don’t know wether we are getting the implication right or not, or if we are if she is telling the truth about him or not. 

 

All of this has MULTIPLE ways it could be INTERPRETED. I would like to talk about it.

[+Extesian]

I think it's simply a reference to seeing the future being very dangerous as it draws upon a Shard and on Roshar the Shard giving future sight on Roshar is typically Odium. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So voidbinding is-- one part of voidbinding is seeing the future. And atium is also seeing the future. And I notice annotations for Elantris, you said something about seeing the future could go weird-- sends assassins. Is that a running--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is a running theme in the cosmere. And it's-- Whatever path you take to do it is dangerous in the cosmere. It's kind of a sign of-- You are in dangerous territory, and drawing upon a Shard that is--

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Potentially...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Potentially-- Yes. I mean to say-- Dangerous territory.

source

But there could be some more specific connection with Ashynite humans. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Extesian
Edited for clarity

[RShara]

I came up with a thread on this a while back, if that will offer any insights

 

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

I (the Almighty) cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I.^[1]

Not sure which thread I should post in, but as you said in the old thread we know Honor is bad at future-sight compared to Odium. I think that's where the Rosharan superstition comes from. It's definitely not of Honor and might be of Odium. Not worth the risk.

I do think Cultivation is better at it than Odium, because her Intent is more concerned with the future, Odium seems to be more time-neutral. I guess she's doesn't like sharing that power with surgebinders/Radiants. I'm not sure exactly what a normal Truthwatcher's surge of Illumination would allow them to do, but it is apparently significantly different from what Renarin can do.

In general, it's a bad idea to trust too much in glimpsing the future because we've seen both The Diagram (interpreting death rattles) and Renarin be wrong. Even Odium says things like "Dalinar wasn't supposed to Ascend" and has the black spots for Renarin. 

Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

We saw that trusting in prophecy got the people of Scadrial in some trouble. 

 

[NotAStick]

I like how you're putting together the fact that humans are perceived to be the voidbringers, and seeing the future is of the voidbringers. Since the KR are human, and Truthwatching is human, it makes sense that the Parshendi would be anxious of voidbringers who talk about the future. This could also be why Vorinism taboos telling the future, especially since the Recreance - it's not only a skill of those who betrayed them but also a skill of the "voidbringers." 

[Quantus]

11 hours ago, NotAStick said:

I like how you're putting together the fact that humans are perceived to be the voidbringers, and seeing the future is of the voidbringers. Since the KR are human, and Truthwatching is human, it makes sense that the Parshendi would be anxious of voidbringers who talk about the future. This could also be why Vorinism taboos telling the future, especially since the Recreance - it's not only a skill of those who betrayed them but also a skill of the "voidbringers." 

I dont know, the Parshendi had their own future-seer's in their Nightform.  I think the key here is that on Roshar future sight is associated with the forces of Odium, which we're learning does and has included both races. 

 

The general Impression I got was that Truthwatching is more or less what you'd expect and basically makes you a classic psychic (probably hard to deceive, Just Knows Things), only that it's typically restricted to happenings in the Present rather than the actual Visions of the Future that Renarin was getting.  

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The general Impression I got was that Truthwatching is more or less what you'd expect and basically makes you a classic psychic (probably hard to deceive, Just Knows Things), only that it's typically restricted to happenings in the Present rather than the actual Visions of the Future that Renarin was getting. 

Seems to be what Ivory believes too.

Quote

“Father. Oh, Father…” The young man whipped his head in one direction, then another, seeing things that weren’t there.
“He sees not what is, but what is to come,” Ivory said. “Odium’s power, Jasnah.”

 

[animalia]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Seems to be what Ivory believes too.

 

And how often have we been told something only for it to later be flipped on it's head? that is ALL I am saying. Another possibility is that it wasn't corrupted by Odium  by Cultivation. We can go on and on and on and....

[Kaladin Zahel]

We know from Warbreaker that seeing into the future is not inherently bad. So I chalk this up to something Rosharans are strange about. Also, I'm pretty sure Kaladin wasn't wrong in following his glimpse into the future either.

Hoids warning of wariness to Shallan is a bit of an oddity for me but maybe that's context driven and not a generalization.

Perhaps, the KR orders who have future sight abilities are where the danger lies.

[hypatia]

IIRC Hoid didn't warn Shallan about the ones who see the future, but the ones who say they know the future.

I always thought about this like in the Hierocraty - they just said they were able to see the future.

It seems likely for me - and this is more a feeling - that Hoid was talking about Odium - really, when you look at it - how many times was he right with his predictions?

The Everstorm killing everyone?

Dalinar?

The return of the Radiants?

Renarin?

Venli bonding with a spren?

Odium always talks about how good he is, but personally I'm not convinced.

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by hypatia

[animalia]

I think it's saying don't rely on these visions to heavily to tell you what the RIGHT thing to do is. It can be a GUIDELINE but that's ALL it is. THAT is something I can believe in.

[NotAStick]

23 minutes ago, animalia said:

I think it's saying don't rely on these visions to heavily to tell you what the RIGHT thing to do is. It can be a GUIDELINE but that's ALL it is. THAT is something I can believe in.

That does seem to be what Hoid is getting at, and even Renarin is relieved to find out that the things he saw did not HAVE to come true. 

[Quantus]

16 hours ago, animalia said:

I think it's saying don't rely on these visions to heavily to tell you what the RIGHT thing to do is. It can be a GUIDELINE but that's ALL it is. THAT is something I can believe in.

Agreed.  Well that and "Dont Trust Anyone, Not even [Hoid]...Especially not [Hoid]"

 

17 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

We know from Warbreaker that seeing into the future is not inherently bad. So I chalk this up to something Rosharans are strange about. Also, I'm pretty sure Kaladin wasn't wrong in following his glimpse into the future either.

Hoids warning of wariness to Shallan is a bit of an oddity for me but maybe that's context driven and not a generalization.

Perhaps, the KR orders who have future sight abilities are where the danger lies.

Agreed.  Future Sight is associated with several shards, Preservation for one.  I think Hoid's warning was a bit of both, definitely a general statement (layered meanings too) but not cosmere-wide or anything (which Shallan wouldnt have known about anyway). There's definitely a stigma against it on Roshar, though I fully expect Cultivation to be at least as good at it as Odium, likely much better.  There's also that super-weird Lighthouse keeper in shadesmar...

[tmnsquirtle]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Future Sight is associated with several shards, Preservation for one.

I've always thought of future sight as, essentially, a really advanced probability table that comes across as a more 'humanized' version of what could be. Shards can, presumably, feel what all their investiture is doing and thinking, and can instinctively create a map of the future just because their mental facilities are expanded that much. Not infinitely, but a lot. 

Quote

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they [shards] aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

source

(I snipped the WoB slightly for clarity and length)

[animalia]

On 8/16/2018 at 3:03 PM, NotAStick said:

That does seem to be what Hoid is getting at, and even Renarin is relieved to find out that the things he saw did not HAVE to come true. 

Thanks. In case I am not being clear enough too often in tragedies involving prophecy. You either meet your fate by trying to hard to fight it or by embracing the prophecy to much. By feeling it can't be wrong. I personally always felt the best idea for a story was something like a balance where you did the RIGHT thing REGARDLESS of what prophecy showed you. If that means fighting against prophecy fine, but if it means embracing prophecy you do that as well.

[Quantus]

3 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I've always thought of future sight as, essentially, a really advanced probability table that comes across as a more 'humanized' version of what could be. Shards can, presumably, feel what all their investiture is doing and thinking, and can instinctively create a map of the future just because their mental facilities are expanded that much. Not infinitely, but a lot. 

(I snipped the WoB slightly for clarity and length)

I think that's part of it, but that a lot of it stems from the fact that that Investiture resides in the Spiritual Realm where Space and Time arent restrictions.  The variation between shards comes from their different Intents and how much it conceptually involves Time and/or progression, which would make Preservation, Cultivation, and Ambition (rip) my picks for the bests at it (of the Intents we know so far).  

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, animalia said:

Thanks. In case I am not being clear enough too often in tragedies involving prophecy. You either meet your fate by trying to hard to fight it or by embracing the prophecy to much. By feeling it can't be wrong. I personally always felt the best idea for a story was something like a balance where you did the RIGHT thing REGARDLESS of what prophecy showed you. If that means fighting against prophecy fine, but if it means embracing prophecy you do that as well.

One of the properties of the spiritual realm is that it creates the spiritual aspects of all possible futures. The shards have more Fortune (the mechanic) which allows them to read these aspects

[animalia]

On 8/16/2018 at 2:32 PM, hypatia said:

IIRC Hoid didn't warn Shallan about the ones who see the future, but the ones who say they know the future.

I always thought about this like in the Hierocraty - they just said they were able to see the future.

It seems likely for me - and this is more a feeling - that Hoid was talking about Odium - really, when you look at it - how many times was he right with his predictions?

The Everstorm killing everyone?

Dalinar?

The return of the Radiants?

Renarin?

Venli bonding with a spren?

Odium always talks about how good he is, but personally I'm not convinced.

 

That’s the whole problem with Scry vs Scry

[animalia]

copied and pasted from the other thread

 

Continuing with Cultivation’s long game. Could the idea be to pry the more intelligent spren of Odium free from his grasp by offering something he can never give them? Empathy?

 

I know it sounds crazy but it goes back to the idea that Someone had of Glys being a Nightform Voidspren and Venli being able to bond both voidspren and regular spren despite the fact that parshendi hadn’t been able to bond with regular spren before because their minds were to similar to the realm of spren for them to find it attractive. Yet things have changed enough in the system for regular spren to be able to bond to them despite their RELATIVELY static minds.

So I thought the opposite might be true and what it might mean Odium because he is good at lieing to himself convinces himself that he is passion so he probably creates his spren to be passionate creatures yet all HE does is eat up their emotions. He is incapable of giving them what they need.

 

This makes me wonder why Renarin might be so important

Tony Atwood who did alot of the founding research on autism and Asperger’s helped describe them (at least Asperger’s I am not sure where Renarins part on the spectrum covers EXACTLY) as “barriers against negative emotions” That were never kinda happy were totally happy, were never kinda bummed were totally bummed. More importantly people on the autisic spectrum once they NOTICE someone in pain tend to be MORE empathetic then the average person.

So here’s the thing wether Glys is a void spren or a corrupted truthwatcher spren who was corrupted so Sja-Anat could have a way to talk to the radiants. Odium is NOT going to offer them empathy and Renarin will. If ANYTHING can get the void spren to defect it simply this. Someone who gives a damnation about them. And THAT will be more important than all the visions of the future.

[Calderis]

Glys is, per OB, a corrupted spren. Not a true voidspren. 

Quote

Inexplicably, the Assassin in White had joined them. He sat outside the room, guarding the door as Dalinar’s new bodyguard. He’d explained, frankly and without concern, that the majority of the Order of the Skybreakers had chosen to serve Odium. Shallan wouldn’t have thought that possible, but that—and Renarin’s bonding of a corrupted spren—indicated that they couldn’t trust someone simply because they’d spoken Ideals.

 

[Juanaton]

I was thinking about the significance of Renarin starting a blacked out portion in Odium’s expansion on the Diagram. I suspect it is something similar to (very minor mistborn spoiler)

Spoiler

The effect of two opponents both burning atium.

Basically a scry vs scry problem. Odium wouldn’t have so much of a problem with that (I think) if it was his investiture fueling Renarin’s future sight. But since Cultivation can also do that, and I think, at least in spirit, Renarin and Glys are far closer to Cultivation than to Odium, her power is blanking/blocking out Odium’s ability to read and predict things when Renarin is involved.

[DracostarA]

I would argue that the reason seeing the future is of Odium instead of Cultivation, although Surgebinding is a combination of Cultivation and Honor's Investiture, is simply based on perception.

Quote

Questioner

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, is the constant the same? Yes, the constant would be the same. The big difference is, what I am tweaking to the fundamental forces is, I imagine on Roshar that there are more fundamental forces. Which is totally breaking the laws of physics, right? But [in] magic there are more than four. I've broken them up into, at least, what their scientists have decided. So. But yes.

I think that because scientists on Roshar, be they the early Dawnsingers or Humans, considered Illumination and Progression fundamental forces and did not consider future sight as one, it was not included in the mechanics of Surgebinding.

I do think Cultivation has better future sight than Odium, evidenced by Dalinar, but on Roshar I think only Voidbinding and the Old Magic can (from what we've seen) view what is to come.

[Subvisual Haze]

All of the shardholders can themselves see into the possible futures, the quote seems to refer to when a non-ascended human is regularly doing it.   See the Mistborn series for a similar example: both Preservation and Ruin can glimpse the future, but only Ruin's power (via Atium) seems to grant humans the ability to glimpse it themselves.  I think a similar phenomenon is occurring on Roshar.  Sure Cultivation can see the future, but only Odium's surges can enable mortals to do the same.  So be suspicious if any mortal claims they can see the future.

None of the Radiant surges seem to involve seeing into the future.  Both Moelach and the Listener form of power Nightform have an aptitude for seeing the future though (both of which derive from Odium's power)

Quote

Nightform predicting what will be,
The form of shadows, mind to forsee.
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.
A new storm will come, someday to break.
A new storm a new world to make.
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

Glys is a Radiant-spren corrupted by Sja-Anat, seemingly giving Renarin access to one Radiant surge (Progression), but instead of the usual Truthwatcher other surge of Illumination, he instead has access to a something like Nightform.