Popular Post Calderis Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) Alright. I keep bringing it up, and I'll keep repeating it. THE FUSED AREN'T VOIDBINDING! Now let's get to my reasoning. This is going to talk about Scadrial's magics in addition to Roshar's, which is why it's in this forum. From the Ars Arcanum Khriss says... Quote I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. Implying that Voidbinding does not easily fit with Surgebinding, which seems to be very much opposite to what we've seen from the Fused. Their abilities seem to be pretty straightforward Surgebinding. And with that we come to the types of Fused. According to Moash there are only nine types. And we've so far only seen any of them use a single Surge. Fliers with Gravitation, the skater in Thaylen City for Abrasion, the thief with Illumination, and the ones who manipulate their carapace which I think are using progression to "grow" their armor and weapons. 9 types. And yet we have a Voidbinding chart in the back of tWoK with Ten "orders" linked to all ten surges. And Khriss' above quote mentions "ten levels" of Voidbinding. On the Voidbinding chart we have a glyph for each of the ten surges that is literally the same glyph with half inverted to create a rotational symmetry, rather then a simple mirror. I believe that this implies that the surges manifest differently, both in the written form of the surge, and in its expression when used. This is where Renarin comes in. Renarin has said that he is unable to make illusions despite multiple attempts. Quote “The Surges of Progression and Illumination. I’m not sure how to make the second one work though. Shallan has explained it seven times, but I can’t create even the smallest illusion. Something’s wrong. I think he's right. Something is wrong because of the way that Glys has been corrupted/enlightened. He has access to the Surgebinding version of Progression and the Voidbinding version of Illumination. He can still use the second, but it's manifestation is altered, just like the glyph on the voidbinding chart. So far, that's only shown itself in his stained glass images of the future... But who knows how else that may manifest. All of this with Renarin stems from @Argent's information about "The Page", and these two WoBs, also from Argent. Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. source Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Voidbinding, and what Renarin does, we are still very confused about how much... Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I am happy that you are very confused about that, because I haven't explained it very much. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Ok. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] And Renarin didn't figure it out very much. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] And he hasn't figured out it much, yeah. And we're not even sure whether he's a Voidbinder. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] He's probably a Voidbinder, right. Then I'm not going to ask you that, because you're going to say RAFO. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yup. source So Brandon won't confirm or deny any of this about Renarin, but I personally think the evidence is all there. My final reason, and in my mind the most compelling, is that Brandon refers to Voidbinding as a separate magic system (which post WoR he said we had yet to see per this WoB, which means Stormform's lightning, and the summoning of the Everstorm weren't voidbinding either) Quote Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. source For why I think that's significant, let's look at Scadrial. Three magic systems. Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. All use metal in drastically different ways. If you take into account that Hemalurgy is not the powers it grants, but the Theft itself, there is not a single one of these magic systems that share a common function. If Voidbinding were to simply mimic Surgebinding, I would be remarkably disappointed in it being called a separate magic system. It would feel like both a setup far to close to Scadrial, with the final magic system allowing the enemy to copy the powers of the heroes, and functionally pointless as we already have a system on Roshar that can mimic both Surgebinding and Voidbinding, in Fabrials. Quote Questioner Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That is theoretically possible. source For Voidbinding to be a separate system, I believe that it's going to be at least as different functionally to Surgebinding as Allomancy and Feruchemy. Manipulating the same surges, in a different manner. As far as the minimal differences between the way that the Fused function, like the slower acceleration and deceleration of the Fused who use Gravitation, I think this is purely a side effect of the fuel source. If Vasher were to figure out how to Awaken with Stormlight, I wouldn't expect that to work identically to with Breath, and I think this is a similar situation, which I have brought up previously. Edited August 15, 2018 by Calderis 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 Yeah agreed. I have wavered a bit on this one but I'm pretty sure the fused magic is just a hack to use odium's investiture to power surgebinding. Voidbinding is an actual magic system created through odium's investment. I've gone back and forth on what voidbinding could be. Referring to it as a cousin of the old magic is the but that really throws it off. Since OB and the voidbringer revelation I've wanted it to be Ashyn surgebinding but i can't see how that could be a cousin of a cultivation magic. Because of that reference I'm inclined to think that voidbinding is actually a system created by the combination of odium's and cultivation's investment. But i have no good ideas on its manifestation. Nor really much helpful to add now i read back over this largely pointless post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 On voidbinding being a cousin to the old magic, if we look at what both do, there's a pretty clear connection. If I understand correctly, the Nightwatcher meddles with the spiritweb of the person asking her for a boon, presumably adding (her own or Cultivation's) investiture into the mix. What Sja-anat does is similar in that she adds (again presumably) her own investiture, or Odium's, to the spiritweb of the spren in question, changing them and the way their magic works. In both cases investiture is being added to the spirit web to change the person in some way. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramerfarve Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 Another point to support this theory is the red eyes of the fused. The color red in the cosmere has special significance, in that it points to a hacked magic system, in this case the fused hacking surgebinding. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harel55 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Extesian said: I've gone back and forth on what voidbinding could be. Referring to it as a cousin of the old magic is the but that really throws it off. Since OB and the voidbringer revelation I've wanted it to be Ashyn surgebinding but i can't see how that could be a cousin of a cultivation magic. Because of that reference I'm inclined to think that voidbinding is actually a system created by the combination of odium's and cultivation's investment. This actually fits well with the theory that the name "Old Magic" is being incorrectly attributed to the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, and is actually supposed to refer to the disease magic we've seen on Ashyn (I can't link to it right now, but there's a thread somewhere). If Voidbinding refers to the Ashynite method of manipulating surges, then under this theory it and the Old Magic would be "cousins", or possibly even the same thing (explaining why Brandon didn't list the Old Magic as a separate magic system, but rather something in its own category). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatikis Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) The Old Magic is its own weird thing. I would hesitate to call it a form of magic. As we have been told The Old Magic is a willful grant of investiture. This is a different beast than other forms of investiture. It in itself isn't really a magic system. It is direct intervention by a shard. Not the natural magic system formed between a shard and a planet. Cultivation's intervention is often mistaken for Odium. The Boon and Curse being called The Old Magic is likely from very old diluted stories of how Voidbinding functioned. A disease that gives you powers is also a boon and a curse. I do agree that the Voidbringers we see are not using Voidbinding. They are using a corrupt form of Surgebinding. Edited August 13, 2018 by Fatikis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 If we look to Scadrial for comparison, I think one thing we can be sure of is that all three Magics will utilize Gems in some regard, given that they are Roshar's equivalent to Metals as the Focus. I suspect there will be something in the Ten Essences that will apply as well, and Im guessing it will focus on the "Body Focus" part of that chart which, correct me if Im wrong, doesnt seem to play a prominent visible role in Soulcasting or Fabrial tech? Anyone have thoughts on the theory that Moash's dagger attack was an example of Voidbinding (as opposed to a gem-operated Fabrial, Nightblood imitation, etc)? Regarding Cultivation and the Old Magic, given how much she is directly involved in Surgebinding via the Spren, and Id say was likely pretty instrumental in the Spren being able to copy Honor's original Herald template with the Radiants. Personally, I wouldnt be displeased if it fell out that Cultivation (via the Nightmother) had co-opted the then-defunct Ashyn Magic system and was granting each of the the Boons in question via unique, individualized, and purpose-built diseases. I think that would fit both with the idea of the Boon/Curses being a more direct intervention while still playing into the general theme we have going of magics being changed and/or co-opted by Shards, Spren, The Five Scholars, etc. Not to mention would fit perfectly with my take on the 'Cultivation' Intent which is typically more about raising/nurturing/modifying what is there already instead of actual, original genesis of anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted August 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 28 minutes ago, Quantus said: If we look to Scadrial for comparison, I think one thing we can be sure of is that all three Magics will utilize Gems in some regard, given that they are Roshar's equivalent to Metals as the Focus. I strongly disagree. A planets focus is the thing that actual shapes the magic itself. Metals for Scadrial, commands for Nalthis, Forms for Sel. For the longest time I have believed that Bonds were Roshar's focus. A symbiotic bond in the Nahel bond. Parasitic bonds in the Fused. Literal bondage for fabrials... But looking at the evidence I've presented here, the thing consistent across all three system that is functions differently in each, like metal on Scadrial, is the surges themselves. Gems do nothing to shape the magic itself outside of soulcasting and fabrials. For the most part they only function as batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatikis Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Quantus said: If we look to Scadrial for comparison, I think one thing we can be sure of is that all three Magics will utilize Gems in some regard, given that they are Roshar's equivalent to Metals as the Focus. I suspect there will be something in the Ten Essences that will apply as well, and Im guessing it will focus on the "Body Focus" part of that chart which, correct me if Im wrong, doesnt seem to play a prominent visible role in Soulcasting or Fabrial tech? Gemstones in themselves are not needed in a comparative way to metal on Scadrial. Gemstones are useful because they can store investiture. They can store stormlight, voidlight, and cognitive entities. Gems seem to have Cosmere relevance and are particularly useful on Roshar, but they are not directly related to the magic systems. Edited August 13, 2018 by Fatikis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 20 hours ago, Calderis said: I think he's right. Something is wrong because of the way that Glys has been corrupted/enlightened. He has access to the Surgebinding version of Progression and the Voidbinding version of Illumination. He can still use the second, but it's manifestation is altered, just like the glyph on the voidbinding chart. So far, that's only shown itself in his stained glass images of the future... But who knows how else that may manifest. This is the stance I've settled on too. 20 hours ago, Calderis said: All of this with Renarin stems from @Argent's information about "The Page", and these two WoBs, also from Argent. Curses, my MO has been found. Time to start asking Adolin questions. But overall I like the writeup, and agree with most, if not all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) I was basing the idea that gemstones are the Rosharan equivalent of Metal on these WOB's, not my own observations. EDIT: To clarify, I understand that gems serve a qualitatively different role in Rosharan magics than metals do in the Metallic Arts. My main point here is that since there are multiple WOB's that seem to equate the two (in his writing process if nothing else) and it's the only example we have of a multi-shard world (that's not broken like Sel), I think it's a viable place to look for hidden clues, and given that correlation they have a strong likehood of being reflected in all the magics the much like the way Metal is. Quote Argent We've noticed that each world, or most worlds, seem to have something that Invesiture likes to stick to. So on Nalthis it's life, on Roshar it's gems, metal on Scadrial... Do you have a term for those things? Brandon Sanderson I do not have one yet. But I probably should. source Quote ceraius This is involving gemstones and their properties on Roshar. Given that Sapphire and Ruby are actually the same crystal - corundum - differing only in their impurities - how would you explain the differences in their properties, with respect both to their essences and their function in fabrials? For example, I am assuming that two identical fabrials, one made with a sapphire and one made with a ruby, would not function the same. To take it a step further, any corundum that is not ruby red is simply called a sapphire of whichever color it happens to be (blue sapphire, green sapphire, colorless sapphire, etc.). How does this play into things; would a blue sapphire have different properties than a green one or a colorless one? Brandon Sanderson This was a big part of the magic for me in working on Roshar, as I wanted the gems to work differently from Scadrials metals in order to avoid repetition. The fact that many gems are basically the same thing was one of the launching points actually. Let me say that you are on the right track. On Roshar, color of the gem is more important than actual crystalline structure. source Edited August 13, 2018 by Quantus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 I suspect Voidbinding underlies the Oathpact. It is Odium's system because it is what allows the "I'll be free if my champion wins" spell, the Oathpact took the Heralds to Braize, etc. (IDK if it is said that Honor's power was used to make the Oathpact, or if the Heralds might have combined Honor's power with Odium's, or what.) Would we speak of 10 Voids in addition to 10 Surges? (Absences/decreases and presences/increases?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said: Would we speak of 10 Voids in addition to 10 Surges? (Absences/decreases and presences/increases?) No, voidbinding would still make use of the same Surges, just in different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted August 14, 2018 Report Share Posted August 14, 2018 I mostly agree. For the passage in Ars Arcanum, I'd write it off as Khriss having no or little access to information about Voidbinding, not to mention not being able to study it. You probably remember my newest theory on Roshar's magic - although it was pre-OB and as such is obsolete, there were good parts in it. I think the Surges are the focus and that Voidbinding would use the same Surges differently (just like Metallic Arts use the same metals differently). Like Renarin does with Illumination. Of course, there's a question why there are only nine kinds of Fused and why - seemingly - they use only one Surge each... But I have a new theory cooking up that may explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted August 14, 2018 Report Share Posted August 14, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted August 14, 2018 Report Share Posted August 14, 2018 Stumbled across a random WOB that I think supports this theory that we've just seen co-opted Surgebinding: Quote Ravi If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed? Brandon Sanderson The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial. source 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted August 17, 2018 Report Share Posted August 17, 2018 A series of thoughts that will lead you to the beginning of a theory I have been pondering: 1. The reflexive symmetry of the Voidbinding chart would work well showing a Surgebinding power, and a counter power (up to interpretation at this point). 2. If Voidbinding is a "cousin" of the Old Magic, and the old magic has a boon/bane reflexive symmetry, that would make sense. 3. If the Old Magic was old because it was prior to Cultivation and Honor's arrival, the system would be the most likely one Odium could corrupt to his purpose. If the Old Magic is related to Cultivation (and there is a strong argument for that), then corrupting both Cultivation and Honors' magic systems to be it's own unique would also make sense. Do the Listeners have different surges than the humans because the Humans have a newer, different reflective symmetry to their surges? Was Voidbinding originally the Surges they used until Honor and Ishar forced a new order on them? (That last one was a new thought to me, but not a well fleshed out one). Perhaps we look at the current chart as the uncorrupted one, and Voidbinding chart as corrupted, but we are wrong. Someone should as Brandon which came first, Surgebinding or Voidbinding. It would add additional insight to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 On 2018-08-13 at 7:38 PM, Calderis said: For the longest time I have believed that Bonds were Roshar's focus. A symbiotic bond in the Nahel bond. Parasitic bonds in the Fused. Literal bondage for fabrials... But looking at the evidence I've presented here, the thing consistent across all three system that is functions differently in each, like metal on Scadrial, is the surges themselves. I agree with you on the main topic (the Fused are not Voidbinding), but I really don’t see the focus thing. I still think bonds make the most sense. But otherwise, great topic. I am completely with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Looking at the voidbinding chart and the mirroring/twinning of the glyphs, realising that the first time we see Sja-Anat is through a mirror. I wonder if Sja-Anats ability to 'enlighten' spren is somehow related to the 'gold/electrum-allomancy' aspect of the surges. Edited August 20, 2018 by ScavellTane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army of Sheep Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 I think the Fused are co-opting the surges. The forms of power though... That seems to work differently. Storm form for instance has some power that is different from surgebinding. Maybe these forms of power are more related to void binding? Am I off the mark here? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 There must be a reason for the name "Surgebinding," and it seems to be that the Surges are bound to people (via the spren). So I feel like Voidbinding would involve binding with this "void" of Odium's that's been mentioned here and there in the books. Spontaneous claim: the Alethi relationship with the Thrill is an example of something to do with Voidbinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 The problem both with Forms of Power's abilities and Unmade's effects is the WoB about Voidbinding not be showed in books. At that point WoR was out and we already saw: - Stormform's powers - the Thrill - the Death rattles - midnight Essences - thunderclasts So those can't be Voidbinding usage... Unless Brandon was unclear in answering to that WoB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Seems to me all void-terms are purposefully misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, ScavellTane said: Seems to me all void-terms are purposefully misleading. They are devoid of a unique meaning 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreith Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 With regard to the issues with Gems being the focus of Roshar's magic while seeming to just be energy storage: is it possible that Bonded Radiants begin developing Gemhearts? Would explain their inherent ability to store stormlight and if the gemheart grows with each oath, explains the increase in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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