[OB] Mechanics of Shardic projectile weapons

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

We have seen shardbows , like the one Rock used to kill Amaram . This is nothing but a giant bow or perhaps even a Fabrial that requires massive strength to use it( like someone wearing shardplate.) However , this is not a true shardic weapon. I know they exist, Wyndle , Lift’s spren speaks of some spren that have turned themselves into Shardbow’s , although he doesn’t understand how they would string themselves . That got me to thinking what would be the mechanics behind it ? Could the spren produce ammo, and fire arrows that pierced armor and if it struck the spine or head of a victim Insta-kill the target? What if a world hopper from Scadrial came to Roshar and had a pistol . Could a Radiant copy that and command his spren to become a pistol ? Would the Radiant need bullets ? Or could the spren prosuce shardic ammo that does the same thing as a shard bow ? Fire shard. Bullets that pierce armor and don’t leave a mark on flesh . I really want to see a Shardbow at the very least , one that shoots shard arrows. In the Hands of someone like Teleb it would be devestating ! Imagine firing one arrow that goes thru 20 people killing or maiming every one that it touches. A wind runner with such a weapon would be a dangerous sniper from the air. Think about it he literally can’t miss if he lashes the arrow to your head. .how do you guys think the mechanics of a shard projectile weapon would work? 

[Calderis]

They have to be one piece, and they need to have a wide cutting area to be effective. An arrow would punch through and do no real damage unless it precisely hit the core of a limb. 

I've said it before, and I will repeat it ad nauseum. A Chakram is the single best ranged shard weapon. It is a single piece, it's a wide cutting surface, and it is designed for distance throws. A spren, with their size limitations, could still manage a ring a 3-4 feet across. 

Throw, cut through a stupid number of enemies, summon back and repeat. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Weltall]

Yeah, a Shardweapon needs to be a single piece so a gun or a bow and arrow aren't possible. Well, Brandon has said that you could have two separate things but this would require splitting the soul of your spren and 'they wouldn't like that at all'.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 minute ago, Weltall said:

Yeah, a Shardweapon needs to be a single piece so a gun or a bow and arrow aren't possible. Well, Brandon has said that you could have two separate things but this would require splitting the soul of your spren and 'they wouldn't like that at all'.

I’m not privy to the WoB I was thinking along the lines of Syl being the Bow and wind spren being the arrows! 

 

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They have to be one piece, and they need to have a wide cutting area to be effective. An arrow would punch through and do no real damage unless it precisely hit the core of a limb. 

I've said it before, and I will repeat it ad nauseum. A Chakram is the single best ranged shard weapon. It is a single piece, it's a wide cutting surface, and it is designed for distance throws. A spren, with their size limitations, could still manage a ring a 3-4 feet across. 

Throw, cut through a stupid number of enemies, summon back and repeat. 

A Chakram does sound deadly , and the mechanics of summon , throw , resummon is sound. I was mostly thinking about range you could possibly throw it. However , I did not consider if the Thrower was wearing Shardplate! In that instance it would be pretty freaking far . Jeez that would be a massacre.

[Gasper]

On 8/2/2018 at 7:46 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

A Chakram does sound deadly , and the mechanics of summon , throw , resummon is sound. I was mostly thinking about range you could possibly throw it. However , I did not consider if the Thrower was wearing Shardplate! In that instance it would be pretty freaking far . Jeez that would be a massacre.

All I can see now is Tron Legacy with Daft Punk in the background.

[cantabile21]

Adolin throwing his Blade comes to mind... 

[Krios]

Couldnt you use a normal gun and construct bullets where your spren assumes the part of the flying piece, while the physical bullet is just the blackpowder in a metal casing and the spren sits on top of it.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Krios said:

Couldnt you use a normal gun and construct bullets where your spren assumes the part of the flying piece, while the physical bullet is just the blackpowder in a metal casing and the spren sits on top of it.

The issue is still area in that case, like with an arrow. 

If a Shardblade cuts shallowly it doesn't really do anything. It has to cut the core of a limb to. Render it dead. 

We see this in Kaladin and Szeth's fight where Kal scores minor hits on Szeth, and Kaladin think he heals them because they're so minor, when Honorblades are incapable of healing Shardblade wounds. 

[CrazyRioter]

Bullets and arrows penetrate. It's what they're designed to do. You aren't going to get shallow wounds on lightly armoured opponents with a bullet or arrow unless your aim is poor and you just graze past them with it. Add supernatural armour ignoring power and you can easily take out limbs.

Edited August 5, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[Krios]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The issue is still area in that case, like with an arrow. 

If a Shardblade cuts shallowly it doesn't really do anything. It has to cut the core of a limb to. Render it dead. 

We see this in Kaladin and Szeth's fight where Kal scores minor hits on Szeth, and Kaladin think he heals them because they're so minor, when Honorblades are incapable of healing Shardblade wounds. 

Arent there bullets, that are specifically designed to rip quite huge holes? Like where the bullet is shaped in a special way. You could teach your spren to mimic that form.

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Krios said:

Arent there bullets, that are specifically designed to rip quite huge holes? Like where the bullet is shaped in a special way. You could teach your spren to mimic that form.

Most of those types of bullets, at least that I know of, are designed for the metal of the bullet to actually tear itself apart or mushroom out to widen the area of the bullet by changing its shape. 

Spren metal doesn't interact with the Physical medium once it pierces, so I don't think that would be feasible. It should punch through cleanly. 

[tmnsquirtle]

So, just as a thought, why couldn't the spren just form itself into a large horizontal blade* sticking out of the casing immediately after firing? It would look pretty dumb, and might be too fast for the spren to actually change shapes, but it would probably work.

 

* Imagine a metal rake, where the shape of the metal part is essentially a T with a very small perpindicular section, and switch out the tines for a massive blade.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

8 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

So, just as a thought, why couldn't the spren just form itself into a large horizontal blade* sticking out of the casing immediately after firing? It would look pretty dumb, and might be too fast for the spren to actually change shapes, but it would probably work.

 

* Imagine a metal rake, where the shape of the metal part is essentially a T with a very small perpindicular section, and switch out the tines for a massive blade.

I could see a crossbow bolt with a scythe on it . It would have range , effectiveness and area effect . Still like Calderis said you might as well just use a chakram and Radiant plate , it would be faster , accurate and more deadly. It’s just hard not to want to incorporate guns and shards after reading Era 2 Mistborn . 

[DrakeMarshall]

The way I see it, a bullet or arrow is primarily designed for three things:

• aerodynamic flight
• piercing defenses
• causing exit wounds

A shardweapon can't cause exit wounds, and pierces all defenses regardless, so 2 of the 3 things that make bullets or arrows appealing no longer apply.

And even the remaining 1 thing, aerodynamics, is not a concern for 4 out of the 10 orders. Shallan was able to attach a lightweaving to Pattern, and by the same logic, a Windrunner/Skybreaker should be able to lash a shard weapon, and an Edgedancer/Dustbringer should be able to make their weapon ignore air resistance.

 

So, basically, most radiants should use chakram as their ranged weapon of choice, as per Calderis' explanation. They strike a great balance between aerodynamics and cutting edge size, and leverage all the advantages provided by shardweapons/plate.

For Windrunners/Skybreakers/Edgedancers/Dustbringers, even aerodynamics fades into the background, and the size of the cutting edge becomes the primary concern. A weapon that is as long and as bladed as possible would cause massive destruction, ideal for stormclasts or fused that can fly. Although, they still might prefer to use a chakram in situations where collateral damage is a concern.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Drake Marshall

[tmnsquirtle]

17 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I could see a crossbow bolt with a scythe on it . It would have range , effectiveness and area effect . Still like Calderis said you might as well just use a chakram and Radiant plate , it would be faster , accurate and more deadly. It’s just hard not to want to incorporate guns and shards after reading Era 2 Mistborn . 

Yeah, it really is about the look of it, isn't it?

I have to admit that the chakram absolutely would be the most practical. But who isn't captivated by the mental image of a ShardGun???

Edited August 7, 2018 by tmnsquirtle

[+hwiles]

I feel like a true living spren-bow has some merit as a weapon that could appear in-book, the Radiant would just have to supply a couple feet of steel wire and their own arrows. If the spren could change it's rigidity mid-draw, which is a stretch but not completely implausible, you would have an almost weightless bow, with virtually zero draw-weight, that fires harder and straighter than the most gruesome crossbow ever made IRL. Considering how emotionally damaged most Radiants are, I expect there might end up being some who need to not be deep in the fighting, but still want to contribute meaningfully from the back row. Highly speculative I know, but I feel like there are creative solutions that are worthy of exploration still.

[Quantus]

Im assuming they cannot turn into systems with moving parts, though id have guessed Bowstrings would be doable just like the various decorative bits; functionally a (Recurve) bow is just springy stick. 

 

I see a couple options that could all be tactically workable, if situationally:

1)Shakram: as @Calderis said, a shakram is almost certainly your best option for any Thrown Weapon, which in turn is your best option if a Shardweapon is limited to inert forms (which evidence suggest they are as far as I know).

2)Bow: IF (big If) the spren can in any way "flex" the bow form to provide increased performance over mundane materials, there could be real use to this in the form of supernatural range that would outstretch thrown weapons, though you'd be limited to mundane arrow and damage types.  I could see good surge synergy in a few places (lashings certainly). 

3)Arrows:  Get some Plate and one of the Shardbows they already have, but use your spren as the Arrow.  This makes it an armor-piercing super-sniper, and just like a thrown weapon you fire and re-summon it back so you never run out of ammo.  The primary down-side is that you are stuck with the tactic of Head-shots or Bust.  Not entirely different from RL sniper tactics though, no?  The benefit with this over the more slashing capable shakram is the fundamental advantage of all Projectile weapons over Thrown weapons in that they focus/compress the strength into a burst for increased punch and/or distance.

4) Gun (Muzzle-loader only) - assuming there is some super-cool surge based gunpowder substitute (Im looking at you Dustbringers, pretty-please?) this could be viable.  And if I was ever going to start experimenting with DIY firearms, it sure would be nice to have one that was indestructible and so incapable of accidentally blowing up in my face.

5)Bullet - Alternatively, if they managed to figure out mundane gunpowder, or a fabrial substitute, most of the advantages of an arrow would translate to the Firearm equivalent.  I could see situational usefulness in an actual cannon siege-weapon too, if the spren-shot could grow spikes or razor ridges or something to chew through walls and such.  Of course a trebuchet or windrunner lashing or any such launcher would work for that.

 

[Yeshaya]

Haha the idea of Shardarrows just occurred to me. I got straight to the forums and of course its one of the most recent topics. A couple extra thoughts, and apologizes if these have been suggested already and I missed them:

Shardbola: This probably breaks the rule of moving parts, but something like a hand thrown bola or a gunpowder-propelled chain shot. Those would have a bigger area of effect than just a regular sphere or projectile. Maybe spikes on them as well if they need a penetrating component. 

Shardcuffs: Thrown as a bar, but when it gets near the target it changes shape to form a tight band around their legs, or around an arm and their torso, to restrict their movements. It would be more useful against an enemy shardbearer, because theoretically they wouldn't be able to break it with their own Blade. And its metal, so I think its more plausible. I know the Spren can change from spear/sword/shield pretty instantly, so I'd assume going from straight piece of metal to circular one is doable too.

Shardballista: I'd guess a ballista's spear is about human-sized, so I think that fits within our size limitations. I think Roshar already has ballistas so it would just be swapping out the ammo. Could be especially useful for Radiants who have the blade but no plate. 

Lashing-powered shardspear: (In the event that you can't Lash your own Shards) Put the Shardprojectile into a regular tube-shaped casing made of wood or something. Have a Windrunner or Skybreaker put a ton of horizontal Lashings onto the casing, so it'll go flying taking the Shard with it. You'd need a casing for each shot though, but a human sized spear falling sideways and several times the acceleration of gravity would probably be a decent weapon to use against a block of troops. Or anyone really.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Yeshaya
Horrific misuse of apostrophes