Ruin, Odium, and Passion

[Valhalla]

A couple of precursors:

1. I haven't really written much on this website before, so apologies if I don't know how to tag spoilers, do quotes, explain myself intelligently, etc.
2. If someone else has already talked about this, I apologize for stepping on your toes. I'm not always on the site so I don't know what I might have missed.
3. This is kind of two topics, but they tie together in my mind. Apologies in advance if it seems disjointed to you.

With that out of the way, I wanted to talk about the similarities between Ruin and Odium, and-- more importantly-- speculate about what those similarities might mean and why they might exist.

The idea that started me thinking this was Odium and Ruin's interesting use of the word passion. As most of us know, Odium tries to convince Dalinar that his intent is about more than just hate, but passion as a whole:

“They call me Odium,” the old man said. “A good enough name. It does have a certain bite to it. But the word is too limiting to describe me, and you should know that it is not all I represent.” “Which is?” He looked to Dalinar. “Passion, Dalinar Kholin. I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of the spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 551). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I noticed as I was rereading the Hero of Ages that Ruin says something similar:

“This work I do, it’s about passion, Vin. It’s about dynamic events; it’s about change! That is why you and your Elend are so important to me. People with passion are people who will destroy—

Sanderson, Brandon. Mistborn Trilogy (Kindle Locations 30922-30923). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Note especially the way the word is written in both cases: italicized. Outside the Alcatraz series, Brandon rarely uses italics for emphasis. The fact that both these characters would talk about their passion in this italicized way really stuck out to me. I thought that I might just be overthinking a small coincidence, but then I came across this WoB:

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was it relevant that Ruin mentioned Passion to Vin?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

So now that I knew it was an important connection, I started to look into other ways that Ruin and Odium are similar other than just the way they talk about their intent. Some other possibilities that I came with:

• They are both vessels. This is obvious, but easy to overlook. Maybe all vessels just feel this way about their intent.
• Both had plans to cause cosmere wide destruction. Odium, with his "hit list" of other vessels, and Ruin, because his intent would have driven him to continue to destroy other planets after Scadrial was no more.
• They have both spent time being trapped (Ruin in the prison Preservation created, Odium trapped by the Oathpact)
• Both tried to forge "champions" that ended up working against them. Brandon says in the annotations to the Hero of Ages that for some unknown reason Preservation had chosen Vin from a young age, and that ruin worked to corrupt Vin after Preervation chose her (Annotation Chapter 79). Similarly, Honor for unknown reasons gave visions to the Kholins (starting with Gavilar, I know). All the while, Odium was hard at work trying to corrupt Dalinar and turn him into his champion. Interestingly enough, both of these individuals ascended and used their power to fight against the force that had tried to turn them. 
• Probably lots of other important/relevant connections I'm too tired to think of at the moment.

Since I was curious about the first bullet above-- that maybe all shards just act this way-- I decided to ask Brandon the following questions last Saturday:

Valhalla [PENDING REVIEW]

Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes they would.

Valhalla [PENDING REVIEW]

Would any of them not talk about it that way?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes they would. Excellent, good questions.

source

This made it very clear that the passion connection is not an inherent thing that all vessels share, nor is it something that is unique to Ruin and Odium. So, what do all the similarities between Ruin and Odium actually mean? And how does passion play into it? I'd love to hear your theories, because frankly none of the ideas I have come up with seem to add up, but I will throw out a few ideas to get the discussion started.

Theory #1: They are both being acted upon by an outside force

One theory that I developed is that they are both somehow being controlled/manipulated by the same outside force. There are a few problems with this. The first is that vessels like Rayse and Ati both have a lot of raw power and a large amount of knowledge and cosmere awareness, making them difficult to manipulate. The only beings who seem capable of manipulating a vessel would be another vessel. However, its possible that because both Ruin and Odium have been trapped with at least a portion of their full power made temporarily unavailable to them that they have been left in a state in which they would be more suggestible or otherwise duped. This still doesn't explain who would want to do it, how they would accomplish it, and why they would make both Ruin and Odium so focused on their passion. So, yeah, this theory is very much a work in progress.

Theory #2: Ruin and Odium were working together

So this theory relies on kind of a stretch to the answers to my questions; basically, that you can split all vessels into two groups: those who have passion, and those that don't. The passionate vessels like Ruin, Odium, and apparently others decided to group up to help accomplish their goals, especially those goals that the non-passionates might have attempted to stop. While doing so, they realize that they are more than just one intent, but that they are also a force of Passion in their worlds. They also realize that the names assigned to their intents, like ruin or odium, tend to have negative connotations and so when they interact with humans they tend to bring forth their passion instead. This theory works on a logical level, but it doesn't work on a storytelling level. I doubt Ati and Rayse are just repeating the mantra from their support group for passionate shards. There has to be more to it than that.

Theory #3: Insert your theory here

I had a couple more ideas, but they all have even bigger holes than the ones I mentioned. This would be easier if we had a third shard that we knew would describe itself as passion, so that we could make more connections. I am interested to hear your thoughts. Why does it matter that both Ruin and Odium talk about passion in italics? What shards have we met that would be passionate? What theories do you have about the connections between these two shards? And finally, does the fact that I stayed up to 2 A.M. on a weekday to write and research this post because I'm so passionate about this particular cosmere puzzle indicate that I, like Ruin and Odium, am a major antagonist intent on causing chaos and destruction throughout the known universe?

[Journey Before Pancakes]

I don't have much in terms of theories to add, but it's interesting to note that the Thaylens have their "Passions" related to religion.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Journey Before Pancakes

[MountainKing]

It's their mandated.

[Wandering Investor]

Originally I was going to say all the shards are passion incarnate about their intent, but that WoB is quite interesting, as it kinda changes things. So I'll throw my own idea in.

Theory #3: They're being acted upon by internal forces.

This theory is similar to theory 1, except the manipulative entity is the shard itself.

First a bit about the mental warping phenomenon the vessels are exposed to. Brandon has stated that shards can influence, and depending upon the person take over their vessels. So there are two variables here, the nature of the shard/intent itself, and the personality/mental-strength of the vessel. We can see this with Ati and Ruin. Ati was a kind and gentle person and tried to hold Ruin at bay. But after a couple thousand years he turned into the raving machine of destruction we know and love. Yet later Sazed can view Ruin as the last chapter of a book, important and not to be denied, but not rushed either. Although after 300 years Sazed appears to be struggling slightly to maintain the balance between Ruin and Preservation, so his final state likely isn't achieved, and Sazed holds two shards so his scenario is slightly different. Another example is Honor. The Stormfather states that Honor used to value the meaning of the oath more than the oath itself. But closer to his death the oath became more important. In other words, as he was dying and his mental strength was weakened, the shard began to take over more. Brandon is always careful to state that the power "can take over" not will take over. So this indicates that the correct combination of vessel and shard could leave a relatively untouched vessel. We don't know all the details, as some have speculated that the vessel's interpretation of the shard's Intent may also be a variable, but it is clear that a Vessel can be warped by their shards, depending on their personality and strength of self, and possibly by the nature of the shard.

The second part is the nature of the shards themselves. Some are, arguably, more destructive and non-cooperative than others. Ruin and Odium for example run pretty counter to everything. Its somewhat hard to rationalize other intents that work in cooperation with either of them. Harmony for instance has to balance out Ruin and Preservation by allowing people to live(be preserved) and then to die(to ruin), so that both intents are satisfied. The only time we've seen him preserve someone through death was Wax (you know, that guy that kills people and is kinda a champion for Ruin?). Then you have others like Cultivation and Honor. You can both cultivate and be honorable while doing other things equally.

So my theory is that there are two groups of shards, shard's who intents compete with other intents, and shards that can perform their intents without competition from other intents. This aspect of the shard's nature in conjunction with the strength of the Vessel's Mental Strength is what leads to some vessel's being essentially consumed by their shard (the passionate ones), and others that can sustain thoughts outside the scope of their Intent and maintain a more balanced mindset.

 

[recneps]

#1 could work, without them being restrained by other shards.
There is another God.

[Valhalla]

recneps, the link you posted doesn't really support the idea of there being another God, especially in light of these later clarifying WoB:

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see... *reading written question aloud* "Can you tell me anything new about the force that opposed Adonalsium?"

*writes* "I would count groups of people as a force."

 Okay? So, I'm not saying that that's what it is, but when people ask that question and leave a lot of wiggle room... because I would count groups of people as a force that opposed him. So, I have not confirmed it's a group or anything like that. The question has a lot of wiggle room.

Footnote: PatrickDiomedes' personalization
source

Eric

In Secret History we learn the 16 Shards that Shattered Adonalsium. Was that done [on behalf of the anti-Adonalsium force]?

Brandon Sanderson

You’re focusing too much on this idea of an anti-Adonalsium. It—the original question I believe that was asked me was “is there a force that is opposed to Adonalsium” and it left me a lot of wiggle room. In other words, the people who killed Adonalsium, you could say were a force, any person who opposed Adonalsium... What they were trying to get was a “devil” but to do that you must assume Adonalsium was a more Christian-style God, and I haven’t confirmed any of that.

source

 

So while I think it is still possible that there is an outside force we are unaware of that is causing this, another Adonalasium-like force seems unlikely to me.

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, recneps said:

#1 could work, without them being restrained by other shards.
There is another God.

To clarify, force can refer to another god, a person, or a group. He was purposefully being vague. Other quotes indicate that another God besides Adon is possible, but very unlikely. 

[goody153]

2 hours ago, recneps said:

#1 could work, without them being restrained by other shards.
There is another God.

Yeah like @Valhalla quoted Sanderson kinda dissuaded that idea down with that WoB which he doesn't usually do. You don't also need a overall "Dark One" to have a better story and it doesn't fit to the theme of Cosmere stories so far. 

I think the shards are the greatest scale of power already in cosmere. Rarely in fiction has "greater scale enemy" done multiple times has ever worked out. Usually it just makes the story really cheap.

Cosmere has been about everything can be good or bad(no absolutes) depending on the situation and execution of a certain ideal (Sanderson has specifically showcased this through religion, or pragmatism(Rashek, Amaram etc ) or even as simply concepts as death etc etc ). There are no absolute good or bad. If you added a "anti-adonalsium" it kinda turns the everything from gray into black and white again which doesn't make sesnse.

Cosmere has stayed away from the classic absolute good vs evil like LOTR and WOT did.

18 hours ago, Valhalla said:

Theory #1: They are both being acted upon by an outside force

Totally possible. After all somebody with equal power/influence could manipulate one another(Ruin did got played by Preservation, well Preservation did got played by Ruin in some sense as well. ). I bet some of the most sneaky/schemy vessels in cosmere has done it before or is still doing it by setting up events that would put their rival/enemy shard in a comprising position.

It just depends if the shard being manipulated cannot see through the subterfuge or the shard doing the manipulation is subtle and crafty enough for it.

Quote

Theory #2: Ruin and Odium were working together

They are similar in a way that leave destruction in their wake and they're morally ambiguous as hell. However their motives/goal couldn't be more different. 

Odium wants to be the only shard basically rule the world(or cosmere in this matter) while Ruin wants to reduce everything to a state of entropic equilibrium aka obliterate everything. 

So yeah one wants to just eliminate competitions and rule while the other just wants to bring everything to an end. 

Quote

Theory #3: Insert your theory here

No major enemy. I presume it's gonna be all about the shards and the nature of the cosmere that it is all about.

I think the passion is really just relevant to some shards and not others. For example since Ruin doesn't just represent death alone but also the aspect of change. So to him it makes sense that he would revel on passion since passion usually leads to change(in other cases death as well). Passivity brings no joy for him as it doesn't bring events that represent him which are change and death.

It think it's really just about the ideal itself. That simply nothing exciting.

Edited July 26, 2018 by goody153

[DracostarA]

I don't really have any evidence to back this up, but I believe Preservation and Honor belong to the 'non-italicised passion' group. What we saw of Leras in Secret History didn't seem particularly passionate, especially compared to Ati, and Honor's strict focus on the keeping of bonds and oaths belies a rigidity that imo leaves little room for passion.

[+Sorana]

This is pure spekulation:

Maybe the feeling of passion is like an indicator how far the personality of the vessel was changed by the shard. The more they get changed the more they feel passionate about the shard's intent. Especially if the shard's intent goes against their original personality (eg ruin - Ati) then the passion could be an instrument, or an argument why they are action like they do. Passion is a really powerful feeling and it usually comes hand in hand with some kind of loosing control and dominats other feelings.

[Wander89]

It's a pretty solid theory, number 1, but I'm not sure if Sanderson would introduce another manipulative force that is controlling them. He has built up Ruin and Odium to be big bads in their own series and to have that knocked away and another force being behind it all might not be manageable. I like the theory though and I'm not against the idea that there are others involved. Passion appears a lot in Oathbringer with the Thaylens too so I wonder if there is something deeper involved.

[Fezzik]

Maybe Passion was a big part of their (ati and rayse) religion pre-shattering.

[Quantus]

In Odium's case, I took his belief that he was all of Passion rather than Odium (which Id call a subset of all the different Passionate emotions), it struck me as the same skewed internal perspective that traditionally leads Cynics to self-identify as Realists instead; their perspective itself prevents them from recognizing the rest of the possibilities that exist outside of their own.  Its similar(ish) to the popular behavior where people that are sufficiently self-centered/narcissistic/etc enough simply cannot grasp the concept of truly selfless actions, they instead assume that the other person always has some selfish motivation deep down, the way that they themselves would. 

 

Ruin is a little more direct, simply, or maybe just objective and physcial an Intent as compared to the more spiritual/relativistic Odium or Honor, so I generally think there's just less room for subjective interpretation there.

[recneps]

10 hours ago, Sorana said:

This is pure spekulation:

Maybe the feeling of passion is like an indicator how far the personality of the vessel was changed by the shard. The more they get changed the more they feel passionate about the shard's intent. Especially if the shard's intent goes against their original personality (eg ruin - Ati) then the passion could be an instrument, or an argument why they are action like they do. Passion is a really powerful feeling and it usually comes hand in hand with some kind of loosing control and dominats other feelings.

Rayse wasn't influenced much by the Intent. Odium is said to be a good fit for him, and was the one he wanted originally.. It's also why he hasn't absorbed any other Shards, instead always splintering them.

[+Sorana]

14 minutes ago, recneps said:

Rayse wasn't influenced much by the Intent. Odium is said to be a good fit for him, and was the one he wanted originally.. It's also why he hasn't absorbed any other Shards, instead always splintering them.

I thought it possible that he wanted to be influenced, even because it's a good fit. But you're probably right. That's too far stretched.

[Jeffo]

I think you can add dominion to this

[Ripheus23]

Since Sanderson is so good with words, I suspect the general difference might be related to the early use of "passion" to stand opposite of "action." Now granted Odium himself doesn't act or sound passive, ditto for Ruin, but it could be that, on another level, they are passive---intellectually, morally, something along those lines. If virtue somehow comes from reason and reasoning is being actively thoughtful, then maybe the viciousness of the destroyer-Shards comes from their failure to rationally analyze their moral responsibilities, to proactively understand what they ought to do. I think the question of moral knowledge posed very directly in Oathbringer shows at least that Sanderson wants to answer this kind of question, after all.

[Singer]

I am liking theory #1, My thought is this: Where does Autonomy fall in the passionate/not passionate camp? And would she have anything to gain by manipulating other shards? The little I know about her she sounds crafty as all get out and I think she could be capable of influencing other shards without them being aware of it. She wouldn't be some new, big baddie, but she could be a very different kind of antagonist assuming she ends up as one at all. Though I suspect she will...But that's a theory for another thread!

[+Child of Hodor]

My crazy theory is that Passion is an aspect of Adonalsium that could have been a separate shard if Adonalsium had shattered differently. Instead it is still part of the existing shards. Not sure why some would talk about their intents in terms of passion and some wouldn't. Perhaps the Shards with intents that are closely associated strong emotions have more interest in passion. Ruin as a term doesn't sound emotional, but death elicits strong emotions. 

 

Quote

 

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
#9 

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Child of Hodor
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