Nalan's Motivation for Using Szeth (Spoilers)

[Confused]

Theory in brief: Nalan sends Szeth to kill the Stone Shamen because they are the original Skybreakers whom Nalan believes have failed the purpose of their Order.

 

We know from the epigraph to Chapter 41 that one KR Order “entertained great subterfuge” “not [to] abandon their arms” but to continue as functioning KR. I believe these were the Skybreakers who moved to Shinovar and became the Stone Shamen. Evidence:

• Only Skybreakers and Windrunners utilize the Gravitation surge, and only those with the Gravitation surge could have taught Szeth how to use Jezrien’s Honorblade to fly. If Kaladin hadn’t seen Szeth, and Syl hadn’t helped him, he might never have learned to fly himself.

• Nalan apparently still has his Honorblade. When he went back to retrieve it, the Skybreakers were with him and collected the other Heralds’ Blades. They took them back to Shinovar with them.

• Of all the lands on Roshar, Shinovar is the most politically and ideologically orderly. Everyone knows their place. Very Skybreaker-like.

The Skybreakers believed the Desolations were over, since they had lived a long time without encountering another one. This was unlike the other Desolations, which occurred at shorter time intervals I do think KR are immortal, or close enough to, for whatever reason – whether from the healing effects of Stormlight (sorry, Kurkistan) or their bonding with a splinter of Honor, or something else. (Of course, how do they get their Stormlight, if they live in Shinovar?)

 

Having such personal knowledge of the normal sequence of Desolations, and perhaps relying on the effectiveness of whatever the Bondsmith Melishi had accomplished against the Voidbringers (Epigraph, Chaper 58), over time the Skybreakers came to believe that the Voidbringers would never return. That is why they made Szeth Truthless (after Taravangian’s intercession and instigation, as another thread concluded based on the epigraph to Chapter 78).

 

Nalan now wants revenge on the Skybreakers for, I believe, limiting their activities only to the Shinovar political/spiritual system, rather than actively maintaining order throughout Roshar. Nalan was the last of the Heralds to accept his role as an Order’s patron (Epigraph, Chapter 43):

 

"And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage."

 

This passage suggests Nalan accepted his role only after the Skybreakers agreed to “ceas[e] to prosecute their civil dissensions,” thus quieting the toparchy’s “disturbances.” Nalan viewed such involvement in civil affairs as “a pursuit of vanity and annoyance.” But when the Skybreakers retreated to Shinovar, and focused solely on establishing an orderly system there, Nalan believed they returned to such a “pursuit of vanity.”

 

He tells Szeth he was “banished by petty men with no vision.” Nalan wants Szeth and Nightblood to kill the Skybreakers/Stone Shamen – “justice for the leaders of the Shin.”

 

Those whom Nalan has gathered to him – the “new” Skybreakers – are not surgebinders, merely people who believe in order as strongly as he does. Because Nalan’s mind has been twisted, he believes surgebinders are the cause of the Deolations and cannot be trusted. He and his new Skybreakers seek to kill them as well.

 

That’s the theory anyway…

Edited March 30, 2014 by Confused

[kaellok]

I disagree with nearly your entire argumentation, but still think you're correct lol.

 

Szeth could have learned how to use the surges without being taught.  Indeed, it would be ridiculous in the extreme for the Stone Shamens to train him to use an Honorblade and its Surges, then cast him out for being Truthless (unless Szeth just a part of a group of people being trained in how to use the Honorblade Surges, but Szeth was all "Hey, the KR are coming back!" even though they believed they weren't.)  We see a clear progression in Szeth's strength and power increasing throughout the books and fights, and so I find this highly unlikely.

 

KR might be effectively immortal if they maintain their supply of stormlight, and its scarcity and necessity to keep one or two of them alive for thousands of years would explain the reverence that the Shinovarans feel for it, but I know one thing--if I knew that I could be effectively immortal as long as I maintained a supply of a certain resource that was nearly omnipresent in other lands but incredibly scarce where I lived, then I would be moving posthaste.  It doesn't seem logical for them to continue living in Shinovar with such a risky restriction, and I don't think there's any possibility of thinking about immortality without stormlight.  So, again, I doubt that this is the case.

 

The epigraph from Chapter 58 I think relates directly to Shardplate, but that's just a hunch of mine. 

 

Rejecting most of your previous premises, though, I still find it very plausible that the people of Shinovar, or at least their leaders, started out as the Skybreakers, and they had a rather severe falling out with their Herald patron--possibly because he went bat-rust insane.

[Observer]

Okay, I know I shouldn't post if I don't have the time to contribute much, I promise I'll edit later or something, once I'm done being the dreaded "that guy".

 

I can see the title of this post from the front page. People are already pissed about seeing a billion Nightblood topics off to the side and being spoiled, but this title takes the cake for spoilers. Could you please make it a bit for vague? There's still a lot of people who haven't read WoR.

 

/Thatguy

[Chlehrma]

I think it more likely that they are truth watchers...or were truth watchers who have lost the sight that ______ has--or maybe they just lack the oaths to reach the necessary level. Keep in mind Szeth was cast out a named truthless because of the claims he made.

Additionally, the surges of a truth watcher are illumination and growth. There is an interlude in WoK where Rysn and her master visit. In this interlude we find out that their farms are considered sacred and outsiders are not allowed to see them. Perhaps this is because nahel bonded farmers (1st oath only) use stormlight to grow crops. This may also be why stormlight is considered sacred to the shin.

It may also be that Bondsmiths took refuge in shinovar, which would explain the prohibition against weapons if we consider what the Stormfather says at the end to ______. There is also a passage that speaks of a single Bondsmiths sitting on the throne in Urithiru. This might explain where the other two went. The presence of the Bondsmiths in shinovar during the recreance might also explain why Urithiru is considered unhallowed stone and may explain why Szeth was able to find it long before anyone who was looking for it.

I think both of these possibilities are more likely than that of the shin being sky breakers.

[Tempus]

Given your theory as stated, it is also possible Darkness is not Nalan, and was banished from the Skybreakers in Shinovar, stole the Honorblade, and is out to pursue his own twisted interpretation. 

[Bramble Thorn]

When Szeth uses the Lashings, his internal monologue uses the same terminology the author of the Ars Arcana uses, as far back as the assassination of Galivar 6 years ago This mean he did not make up words for the stuff he does like Lift does with Awesomeness. Also, he has no bonded spren to tell him. He learned what he knows somewhere. Most likely Shinovar

 

And to play Devils Advocate...

 

So even if he did not practice hand on Lashings in Shinovar, he did learn the theory there. If the Stone Shamans are Skybreakers, highspren being lawful, there may be a fixed number allowed in the physical realm, and/or rigid entry requirements. Having access to an Honorblade allows surgebinding skill to be a screened for ability as well as devotion to the law.

 

Szeth could be a Stone Shaman in training before excommunication, and trained in their surges in anticipation of the Bond.

Edit:

Given your theory as stated, it is also possible Darkness is not Nalan, and was banished from the Skybreakers in Shinovar, stole the Honorblade, and is out to pursue his own twisted interpretation.

Also, I like this idea.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Bramble Thorn

[RShara]

Wouldn't Szeth recognize him then?

[11thorderknight]

If a select group of people were in charge of protecting 8 priceless objects that give their bearers incredible powers, I would think that the members of that group would learn to use those object by periodically using them themselves. But that's just me.

[Moogle]

If a select group of people were in charge of protecting 8 priceless objects that give their bearers incredible powers, I would think that the members of that group would learn to use those object by periodically using them themselves. But that's just me.

 

The Shin culture prevents this, though. Any Shin who picks up a weapon is relegated to being a bodyguard on the low rungs of society (or so we're told second-hand, so perhaps not?). It seems likely that by picking up such an incredible weapon, the wielder would be made Truthless (or at least, lower than most other bodyguards) because of the power of such weapons. I imagine the rationale would go, "why could you ever want such power except to destroy? You are the lowest of society!" or something.

 

Which isn't to say that they don't keep "slaves" and have them practice with their Honorblades. I just don't think that the Stone Shamans would wield the weapons themselves. Instead, their bodyguards would.

[Seloun]

The Shin culture prevents this, though. Any Shin who picks up a weapon is relegated to being a bodyguard on the low rungs of society (or so we're told second-hand, so perhaps not?). It seems likely that by picking up such an incredible weapon, the wielder would be made Truthless (or at least, lower than most other bodyguards) because of the power of such weapons. I imagine the rationale would go, "why could you ever want such power except to destroy? You are the lowest of society!" or something.

 

Which isn't to say that they don't keep "slaves" and have them practice with their Honorblades. I just don't think that the Stone Shamans would wield the weapons themselves. Instead, their bodyguards would.

 

Szeth never questions that the Stone Shamans could recover his Honorblade (which would almost certainly involve sacrilege in other ways, e.g. walking on stone); given his confidence, it seems quite likely the Stone Shamans either have unknown abilities or have dispensation to use the Honorblades for certain purposes (and probably exemptions from e.g. walking on stone).

 

This doesn't rule out the 'bodyguards' theory, necessarily, but at that point it might just be a matter of semantics (i.e. are Stone Shaman bodyguards 'really' Stone Shaman?).

 

It's also worth noting that Szeth seems to expect that the Shin will defend themselves with the Honorblades:

 

 

Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. “My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia. If I am to bring judgment to them, I will face enemies with Shards and with power.”

 

It's possible he's referring to other shards and not the Honorblades (the reading doesn't necessarily rule that out), but the most natural reading seems to imply that they have people who can use the Honorblades.

[Frostlander]

I know that the idea that the Stone Shamanate might be related to the Stonewards has been discussed and discarded, but I am still not convinced that they are not related. In addition to Taln's and his order's obvious connection to stone, we don't have evidence that every Stoneward gave up their blades and plate on the Day of Recreance. WoK is actually deliberately vague about this:

 

 

“…the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.”

The ... before "the Order of the Stonewards" could be "a lot of," "most of," "some of." It seems unnecessarily sneaky.

 

We know that a large number of Windrunners showed up, and a quote from the "real" WoR suggests that the Windrunners were the most insistent on giving up, even though they weren't perhaps all initially present in Dalinar's vision:

 

 

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

Is it possible that some of the Stonewards, even though they were not the 1 order that didn't disband, kept going? Especially if the reason the Radiants disbanded (the Windrunners most passionately) is because they learned that the Heralds betrayed the Oathpact (and Taln).

 

Finally:

 

Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

 

Clearly some of them can be very stubborn.

 

Taln is exiled and the Shamanate is exiled from their native stone? This exile and connection to Taln/Stonesinew has resulted in the holiness of stone. I think we will learn why the Shin have their stone-related issues, given the title of the next book.  

 

[thejopen27]

From what Szeth thought during his interlude I thought they knew something about how the Thunderclasts could rise from stone.  He said something about how the stone around Urithiru was the only place in the east where the stone was untainted or something.  Someone could find the quote.

[11thorderknight]

What better way for a group of religious leaders to keep the Blades safe than to forbid anyone of their culture from touching weapons? Keep in mind that these are Shardblades; they can be kept in the Spiritual Realm and only manifested when used for fighting. They don't even need to be manifested to enable use of Stormlight or Surges.

 

If I were a secretive cabal of tribal leaders who intends on keeping 8 Honorblades secret, I'd make up some religious reason to forbid most of my subjects from touching weapons, ban walking on stone, then put the weapons in some mountain cave somewhere. I'd also make forgeries of each one to put on display and have the real ones kept by the eight senior Shaman, but that's just me.

[hoser]

I actually think it's the other way around.  The Shamanate being armed with Shardblades is what keeps the normal fighters as the lowest class. 

The Shin culture prevents this, though. Any Shin who picks up a weapon is relegated to being a bodyguard on the low rungs of society (or so we're told second-hand, so perhaps not?). It seems likely that by picking up such an incredible weapon, the wielder would be made Truthless (or at least, lower than most other bodyguards) because of the power of such weapons. I imagine the rationale would go, "why could you ever want such power except to destroy? You are the lowest of society!" or something.

 

Which isn't to say that they don't keep "slaves" and have them practice with their Honorblades. I just don't think that the Stone Shamans would wield the weapons themselves. Instead, their bodyguards would.

If not for the Stone Shamanate violently putting down any violent efforts on the part of the normal Shin warriors, warriors would be lords and farmers would be peasants like many other places.  As it stands, if a warrior decides he wants to take over with some of his mates, the Shamanate takes up their Honorblades and kicks butt.  

 

Just my opinion.    

[Bramble Thorn]

Wouldn't Szeth recognize him then?

you need learn to play Devils Advocate better. If "Nalan" is in fact a disenchanted/defrocked Stone Shaman, Szeth would not know about it because it happened many years ago, before Szeth came to the Stone Shamans. It obviously took a long time for Nalan to build his Skybreaker organisation (which are armed with the Shardblades he stole when he left Shinovar)

...

 

The Shin culture prevents this, though. Any Shin who picks up a weapon is relegated to being a bodyguard on the low rungs of society (or so we're told second-hand, so perhaps not?). It seems likely that by picking up such an incredible weapon, the wielder would be made Truthless (or at least, lower than most other bodyguards) because of the power of such weapons. I imagine the rationale would go, "why could you ever want such power except to destroy? You are the lowest of society!" or something.

What makes you think the Honorblades would qualify as a weapon under Stone Shamanism?

 

You can kill with a scythe, but I doubt picking one up makes you a soldier. You can bludgeon someone with a plow. If it can be used for other purposes than war, probably not technically a weapon. Honorblades can allow you to fly, or teleport, or heal, or grow crops, or transmute the elements, or see the future, or become industrial light and magic, and so on.

 

Wither the Honorblades are properly weapons that picking up makes you a warrior is a complex question, a matter of dogma. Who would be the ones who would answer such a question but the Stone Shamans? So they might let it be implied that Honorblades are weapons, but the initiated know the "truth"

[Confused]

Some mea culpas and several responses:

 

First, since writing the OP, I discovered that the plural of "Shaman" is either "Shamans" or "Shaman" (like "deer" or "fish"). Not Shamen, as I wrote. Apologies...

 

Second, to Observer (and others), I further apologize for giving stuff away in the Topic heading. I've since re-read the Spoiler Policy and discovered my error. If anyone knows how to edit or amend the Topic heading, I would appreciate your telling me.

 

On to the responses:

 

Tempus, I agree with you. In fact, my original OP included a paragraph about this, but the OP was so long as it was, I deleted that paragraph. The best evidence, in my view, of why Nalan might be a renegade Skybreaker is the WoB that a "member of an order" contacted Szeth. To our knowledge, only Nalan contacted Szeth (unless Taravangian has been holding back on us regarding his background?). "Patrons" are generally not members of the organizations they patronize (except maybe in the nonprofit world). Xbaucks first pointed this out on another thread. Patrons of art are not members of the artists' guilds, etc. I don't think Nalan being a renegade Skybreaker versus the actual Herald changes my analysis (although some here disagree with my conclusion on other grounds).

 

Bramble Thorn, it sounds like you agree that someone in Shinovar taught Szeth his surgebinding skills, even though you say you're playing Devil's Advocate.

 

Regarding the "use of Shardblades" discussion: Under my theory, the Stone Shamans (see! I can learn!) were the original Skybreakers, not their descendants but the real thing. They would still have their own Highspren forming their Shardblades for them, in addition to the Honorblades. The only reason they would need to use an Honorblade is to access surges other than Gravitation and Pressure. The WoK Rysn Interlude discussion between the Thaylen trader and the Shin merchant suggests Szeth was unique - perhaps the only Truthless, certainly of his magnitude. My guess is that only Szeth in all these centuries was given an Honorblade to use.

 

It makes sense for the Skybreakers to compel Shin culture to decry weapons and warfare. They want order, and weapons and war tend toward chaos. (A little anti-Second Amendment lobbying by Brandon?) So make warriors into slaves, the lowest class, and forbid Shin from carrying weapons. But the Skybreakers still have their Shardblades, whether they use them or not, and still keep the Honorblades, to be used only on very rare occasion.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Confused

[RShara]

Click Edit on your post, then go to Full Editor, and you should be able to edit the topic.

[Confused]

Thanks, RShara! Observer, I hope that takes care of your concerns.

[Kobold King]

When Szeth uses the Lashings, his internal monologue uses the same terminology the author of the Ars Arcana uses, as far back as the assassination of Galivar 6 years ago This mean he did not make up words for the stuff he does like Lift does with Awesomeness. Also, he has no bonded spren to tell him. He learned what he knows somewhere. Most likely Shinovar.

It's interesting that he uses the exact same terminology. Here are a few possible conclusions of that thought:

1. The Ars Arcanum author trained Szeth.

2. The Ars Arcanum author will interview Szeth and use his terminology.

3. The Ars Arcanum author is Szeth.

[PorridgeBrick]

1. Unlikely, IMO.

2. Who's going to interview a crazed vengeance-bent assassin with a deadly magical sword? And why would Szeth bother to give him an interview?

3. We know that the Ars Arcanum author is the same in all the books. I don't think Szeth is a centuries-old Worldhopper.

So clearly, we should go with 4. Szeth's source of info and the Ars Arcanum author's source are the same : the teachings of the Shin / Knights Radiant.

[Moogle]

2. Who's going to interview a crazed vengeance-bent assassin with a deadly magical sword? And why would Szeth bother to give him an interview?

 

Hoid would do it. Soothing would make Szeth open up. (It worked for Shallan's father, after all.)

 

Also, I doubt Szeth is all that crazy now.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

Don't we have WoB, though, that Hoid isn't the Ars Arcanum author? It just seems like a very unlikely circumstance. First the Ars Arcanum author has to hunt down Szeth, who the world thinks is dead, and then somehow convince him to halt whatever he's doing and give him an impromptu interview. Besides, he says "Reports of the Assassin in White's odd abilities have led me to some sources of information that, I believe, are generally unknown", as well as "The effects of these Surgebindings were known – colloquially among the members of the order – as the Three Lashings." This isn't some Szeth specific terminology picked up in an interview – someone/something taught Szeth how to use his blade, and someone/something told the Ars Arcanum author the info on the Windrunners.

[Bramble Thorn]

Bramble Thorn, it sounds like you agree that someone in Shinovar taught Szeth his surgebinding skills, even though you say you're playing Devil's Advocate.

 

Regarding the "use of Shardblades" discussion: Under my theory, the Stone Shamans (see! I can learn!) were the original Skybreakers, not their descendants but the real thing. They would still have their own Highspren forming their Shardblades for them, in addition to the Honorblades. The only reason they would need to use an Honorblade is to access surges other than Gravitation and Pressure. The WoK Rysn Interlude discussion between the Thaylen trader and the Shin merchant suggests Szeth was unique - perhaps the only Truthless, certainly of his magnitude. My guess is that only Szeth in all these centuries was given an Honorblade to use.

 

I was replying there to kaellok's assertion that Szeth could have learned to use Surges without being taught. Which i think is wrong.

 

I agree Szeth learned technical information about the types of Lashes in Shinovar. But this could have been from an oral history kept by the Shamanate, preserved texts, or something else. Jashah knows something about the Surges and Orders from the in world "Words of Radiance" but that does not mean she has practiced every surge.

 

Also, Urithiru. When the scholars arrived there, they placed it near the center of the continent, not anywhere near Shinovar. But Szeth knows where it is, well enough to locate it overland without using an Oathgate. And Urithiru is not Holy to the Stone Shamans; "unhallowed" has a lot of negative connotations and is neutral at best. So I do not think Urithiru's location is maintained because it is central to their religion or a pilgrimage site or anything like that.

 

I just think the implication is there are accurate historical records in Shinovar, and Szeth had access to them. 

 

The point I do not necessarily agree with is that current day Stone Shamans are Skybreakers. I am one of those people who can disagree with someone else's conclusion, while still agreeing that I can see why they might see things the way they do. Ignoring evidence of a position just because it is not what you believe is just simple hypocrisy. Illike to try and see why others might come to the conclusions they do, and also make inferences.

 

Judging from the way Szeth killed Galivar, that was not his first rodeo. But he makes a point of not letting his masters know what he can do if possible. So I do not see him being able to practice those surges after being make truthless. The only time he really had a chance to do so was when he was going all over the continent killing the High and Mighty, way after Galivar died. Or in Shinovar. Also what Kaladin said, that the best way to improve is to train with someone as good or better. There is not a lot that around for Szeth that we have seen. So he was trained in Shinovar

 

Devils Advocate was assuming for a moment the Stone Shamans were Sky breakers, why they trained him. The reason I came up with was to specific the Skybreakers.  There are also better reasons others had mentioned after I had posted that do not require the Stone shamans be Skybreakers, Such as the guardians of the Honorblades being trained in using the Honorblades, to better prevent them being taken by others...

[A Joe in the Bush]

Shinovar is Recluse.