I Think That There is Something Incongruent with Atium. (Mistborn Trilogy SPOILERS)

[Neotharin]

I would like to take the time to again warn that this post CONTAINS SPOILERS. It also contains some of my own theories. I will outline why I think there is something wrong with how Atium works in Allomancy and give suggestions on how I think it should work.

 

If you find any mistakes in my logic or you have a reference that discredits one of my assertion please comment with it. This theory is something I want to be proven wrong on. Brandon's Allomancy/Hemalurgy/Feruchemy magic system is something I absolutely love, yet I cannot reconcile the issues I've found.

 

Basis/Lore

I feel that the way Atium works is incongruent with the logic of how Lerasium would indicate it would work.

 

In the beginning it was said that humans did not exist on Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation had to work together in order to create them. Preservation had to promise Ruin that she would let him destroy the world (as is his nature) in the future if he would work with her this time. It was also said that Feruchemy came ages before the other metallurgic arts. I think that Ruin and Preversation created Feruchemy as a consequence of their collaboration.

 

Allomancy (Net positive): Preservation’s power arrived during the first ascension, through Rasheck sharing the Lerasium beads with his most loyal companions. Allomancy generates greater force/energy than what is consumed from the metal.

Hemalugry (Net negative): Ruin’s power and would be innate in the world. Some of the power is lost when using hemalurgy, the one with the spike always has a weaker version of the ability than it's original owner had.

Ferucehmy (Net neutral, but not net zero): Exists through the merging of the two powers. Weak now, strong later.

 

This is where I start to see the incongruent behaviour.

Lerasium is a god metal, and everyone is capable of consuming it; Skaa or noble alike, and grants full-fledged Mistborn-dom. Brandon said that being a god metal, Lerasium has special properties in how it rewrites your "spiritual DNA".

 

I feel that Atium should be the same way; everyone should be able to consume it as it is also a god metal. Atium and Lerasium are the physical manifestations of shardic power, and like actual shards they should both also be able to be picked up by everyone. This is probably the reason behind why Lerasium can be consumed by everyone.

 

Atium’s Allomantic Effect

Firstly, Preservation was attributed greater foresight. This is how Preservation was able to win out in the end and not have to give in to Ruin. Thus, why is it that Atium gives foresight as an allomatic effect?

 

Secondly, if Lerasium’s allomatic effect grants the power of net positivity, then Atium’s allomatic effect should grant net negativity.

 

I think that Atium being net negative, it would possibly have these effects...

 

1) if you are a Mistborn it would turn you into a normal human being.

2) if you are already a normal human, it kills you as ruins nature is destruction.

3) If you are a Misting it would turn you into something akin to a spren with a nature that would be dependent on the type of Misting you were.

4) If you were a Ferring, it would only partial destroy you, leaving only a fragment of your physical/spiritual/cognitive aspects behind as a shell of your former self, which depends on the type of Misting you were.

5) It’s hard to say what you would be if you were a Feruchemist and burned Atium. You could be destroyed, as your net negativity would be greater than your net positivity, but it could vary. An interesting idea would be that you cease to exist but the three aspects of you (your physical/spiritual/cognitive aspects) would be fractured into separate beings, locked as metaphysical building blocks across the three realms.

 

Atium-Lerasium Alloy

Thus, the alloy of Atium and Lerasium would grant Feruchemy and not the ability to burn Atium as a Misting; as in the the creation of humans the merging of the powers created net neutrality.

 

Edited March 26, 2014 by Neotharin

[Observer]

The thing here being that Lerasium is a massive amount of Shardic energy concentrated into a little metal bead, a spiritweb hack provided by TLR. Atium is made of small bits of Ruin, and like most solid bits of Investure, has a very specific use. In this case, it allows one to see the future, but only the immediate future in a way that is only really useful for combat, likely the same way Ruin can see the future. It's a metal that allows the user to destroy more effectively, and in turn encourages them to destroy. Shards have a million uses, and I honestly don't find it surprising that Preservation's power can be used, intentionally, to form Lerasium, while Ruin's power can, naturally and without direction, form a destruction-oriented metal.

[Swimmingly]

I think it has more to do with a "trump card" theory of magic systems.

Lerasium, being of Preservation, is the trump in it's magic system, allowing consumers to use all metals.

Atium is a "trump card" in Hemalurgy, being of Ruin, allowing users to steal any power.

Atium spends its Investiture on an active effect in Allomancy, acting as an Ace in this analogy.

I'd speculate that Lerasium does something similar in Hemalurgy, being fairly powerful. I'd speculate that lerasium alone, whatever it steals, is remarkable in that it does not lose power, and maybe even augments it in the process.

[Observer]

I'll buy that, nice work Swim.

 

Worth noting, I'm not overly sure if a combo of Atium and Lerasium would nearly grant Feruchemy from being burned. I suspect one owuld have to do something a little different to work it like that...

[Swimmingly]

Well, if you think of it in terms of Shards, Ruin (being entropic decay and change) would make sense. It can predict how everything is changing, because it can take into account every atom.

[bartbug]

Yeah. What Swimmingly said.

 

Though to extrapolate on that, I feel like he's (slightly) off. He's right in that each metal has a more powerful affect in it's natural area, so Atium has awesome hemalurgy while Lerasium has awesome allomancy. Also, the "awesomeness" seems to be available for all, like you said it should. Anyone can spike anyone when you're using Atium, just as anyone can ingest lerasium. However, I believe that those "awesome" effects are extra: Atium can still spike for burning Atium, and Lerasium can do different things in the hands (stomach?) of a Mistborn who knows what he's doing.

[Neotharin]

[Atium] allows one to see the future, but only the immediate future in a way that is only really useful for combat, likely the same way Ruin can see the future. 

 

This is a good point, as both Ruin and Preservation are capable of future sight.

 

It's a metal that allows the user to destroy more effectively, and in turn encourages them to destroy. 

 

Allomancy is also capable of destruction. But to say it less effective than Atium, is hard to say. Atium is only exuberantly deadly in the hands of a mistborn, which is also deadly without Atium.

 

Shards have a million uses, and I honestly don't find it surprising that Preservation's power can be used, intentionally, to form Lerasium, while Ruin's power can, naturally and without direction, form a destruction-oriented metal.

 

You are hinting at one of the underlying differences between the god metals and the other 16. I think calling them God Metals is a misnomer. They are not actually metals, in the sense that copper and steel are. Atium and Lerasium are a piece of shardic power, just with a metallic facade. 

 

I am applying the same rules of Lerasium, in that it grants power, to Atium. Thus, Preservation adds to your Spiritual DNA and Ruin subtracts from your Spiritual DNA. With zero Spirituality, what are you? 

 

I'm not overly sure if a combo of Atium and Lerasium would nearly grant Feruchemy from being burned. I suspect one [would] have to do something a little different to work it like that...

 

Granted. As this is just a theory; Brandon might have another way to become a Feruchemist.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Neotharin

[Neotharin]

Sorry for the double post; I'm still getting used to the formatting, I'm not sure how to quote two people in the same post. 

 

I think it has more to do with a "trump card" theory of magic systems.
Lerasium, being of Preservation, is the trump in it's magic system, allowing consumers to use all metals.

 

I see it as this since Atium is the opposite of Preservation (As Preservation and Ruin posses a dichotomy that is unlike any other multi-shard world in the Cosmere) what ever Preservations adds via Spiritual DNA manipulation, Ruin can undo that in the same way. 

 

In the case of non-god metal hemalurgy, the Hemalurgy and net positivity at work in a spike are like a balanced scale, yet it is tipped in the direction of a net positive sum because of the stolen allomantic ability.

 

My theory has the same scale metaphor, yet it is tipped completely to one side or the other when pure god metals are at play.

 

 

 

Atium is a "trump card" in Hemalurgy, being of Ruin, allowing users to steal any power.

Atium spends its Investiture on an active effect in Allomancy, acting as an Ace in this analogy.

 

The problem I see with this is that the well of Ascension was a prison for Ati. Trapping his Cognitive and Spiritual aspect separate from his physical. This means that an Atium bead would not be able to impose any will on the effects it would grant except for an innate effect. And yes, Atium is a Hemalurgc wild card, except that it still steals only a portion of the power, albeit more efficiently. 

 

Brandon says this about Atium Hemalurgy, "It works far better than other spikes as well". He doesn't say that it works with 100% efficiency.

 

I'd speculate that Lerasium does something similar in Hemalurgy, being fairly powerful. I'd speculate that lerasium alone, whatever it steals, is remarkable in that it does not lose power, and maybe even augments it in the process.   

 

Very interesting idea.  Yet again, it goes back to the net positive and net negative. If Atium is net negative, I think it's reasonable to postulate that Lerasium Hemalurgy would be net positive granting stronger and stronger allomancy the more people it sticks.

 

 

 

Well, if you think of it in terms of Shards, Ruin (being entropic decay and change) would make sense. It can predict how everything is changing, because it can take into account every atom. 

 

I would have to politely disagree. Entropic decay is a net neutral sum. Entropy is the amount of energy not available to do work. Atoms, or bond between atoms seek the most stable form. Both Ruin and Preservation would be capable of foresight via atoms if it were possible, because chemistry contains negative sums, positive sums, and neutral sums. 

Edited March 27, 2014 by Neotharin

[Lightsworn Panda]

This is assuming that our world physics apply to the Shardworlds. Even if it does, I suppose "magic", in the form of Allomancy/Stormlight/whatever can break the laws of physics. Good job, Neotharin, by the way. you have a pretty good grasp of Cosmere theory. 

[Zhalfirin]

Yes, physics in the Cosmere is the same as ours.

 

Viper

Hah. So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

On a different note, we seem to be caught up in tying Shardic Intent with how specific things in a magic system work. With Allomancy you are preserving your own strength by using the Shards instead, but you are free to use that strength to destroy. In Hemalurgy you steal another strength and grant it to another in a weaker form, but you can also create things using Hemalurgy, such as Kandra and Koloss.

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy.

 

The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.

 

Just because Atium is the physical form of Ruin doesn't mean its use in Allomany has to have some net-negative result.

 

 

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers.

 

As for why Atium gives people future sight even though Ruin is bad at it, think of it this way. When you burn Atium it is acting as the power source, which is normally provided by Preservation, then that energy is being channeled through Preservation. You are basically using Ruin's energy to power Preservation's abilities.

[name_here]

All the Shards were originally part of the same entity. I think their base-level power is essentially interchangable, and it's Preservation's system that is providing the future sight.

[MistLord]

Atium allows future-sight because seeing the future disturbs causality - ruining it. It allows one to break causality. 

 

If that's what we're talking about... 

[Dalenthas]

I think it is important to remember that you're still using Allomancy to burn Atium. You're using the power of Preservation, channeled through the body of Ruin. Remember that though Atium is made of Ruin's body, it was created by Preservation as a way to fight Ruin. So by burning atium, you're helping further Preservation's plan (though the power will eventually find its way back to the Pits of Hathsin, as Preservation cannot actually destroy Ruin, even in part...).

So, when you burn atium, you're still using Preservation's power, not Ruin's. It grants such godlike power simply because it's basically metallic Investiture. I imagine that Atium's use in Hemalurgy is quite potent, I wouldn't be surprised if a single Atium spike (placed properly) could steal all of a Mistborn or Feruchemist's powers. A Larasium spike, on the other hand, I imagine would be potent (on the same 'raw Investiture' argument), but in a different way. Perhaps it steals Lifespan? Punch Lerasium through a baby, add its life expectancy to your own? Seems properly twisted enough misuse of Preservation's power for Ruinous Intent, especially as immortality is already possible without becoming vampiric in the process...

On a mostly unrelated note, what would happen if a Mistborn were to burn Raysium, or Tanavastium? Hmm...

[xXEldestXx]

I was under the impression that, for the time between the creation of Ruin's prison and the ascension of Sazed, Preservation had altered the workings of Allomancy slightly, so that Atium mistings would be born in place of one of the other varieties (I think it was cadmium). He also insured that, within the magic he fueled, Atium was incredibly useful. This way, Seers and Mistborn would constantly be seeking it out and burning it, ensuring that there wasn't ever a large amount for Ruin to find if he escaped.

[Curiosity]

Atium-Lerasium Alloy

Thus, the alloy of Atium and Lerasium would grant Feruchemy and not the ability to burn Atium as a Misting; as in the the creation of humans the merging of the powers created net neutrality.

 

 

Going with Swimmingly's idea of "trump-card" metal, I think that the Atium-Lerasium alloy (call it Sazium or Sazedium or Harmonium, whatever) would work as a universal metal-mind that anyone could use to store any of the Feruchemical powers. Whether you could store strength and speed in the same metal mind… It seems unlikely.

[Jaaxter]

I was under the impression that, for the time between the creation of Ruin's prison and the ascension of Sazed, Preservation had altered the workings of Allomancy slightly, so that Atium mistings would be born in place of one of the other varieties (I think it was cadmium). He also insured that, within the magic he fueled, Atium was incredibly useful. This way, Seers and Mistborn would constantly be seeking it out and burning it, ensuring that there wasn't ever a large amount for Ruin to find if he escaped.

 

Do you have a reference for that first theory? About Seers replacing Pulsars? The impression that I got in the Alloy of Law is that the secret organization is trying to breed an Atium misting, since it has been 300 years between the series, a number that is, coincidentally, the amount of time stated as necessary for the Pits of Hathsin to regenerate. Are you implying that with Harmony in charge, Atium mistings are no longer a thing?

 

It is interesting to speculate on a new shard metal replacing Atium and Lerasium. I recall a thread recently about trying to come up with a question to put to Brandon asking whether killing Sazed would drop two normal shards (Ruin and Preservation) or one powerful shard (Harmony).

[WeiryWriter]

Do you have a reference for that first theory? About Seers replacing Pulsars? The impression that I got in the Alloy of Law is that the secret organization is trying to breed an Atium misting, since it has been 300 years between the series, a number that is, coincidentally, the amount of time stated as necessary for the Pits of Hathsin to regenerate. Are you implying that with Harmony in charge, Atium mistings are no longer a thing?

 

It is interesting to speculate on a new shard metal replacing Atium and Lerasium. I recall a thread recently about trying to come up with a question to put to Brandon asking whether killing Sazed would drop two normal shards (Ruin and Preservation) or one powerful shard (Harmony).

 

Yeah atium/malatium replacing cadmium/bendalloy in terms of the Rule of 16 is WoB. (I want to say it is in the annotations, but I don't have time to check right now) We do not currently know if cadmium or bendalloy mistings occured naturally during the Final Empire Era.  We do have WoB on whether there are still atium/malatium, that "there are no more, in that way"  What exactly that means, is up for the debate.  However I thought it was pretty clear that they were trying to breed a mistborn?

 

Also the "its been 300 years, Kelsier said it would take 300 years for the Pits to start producing again" is something that comes up all the time.  I have several issues with it, one we have no idea how Kelsier came up with that number, or the validity of the estimation; two, the pits no longer exist; and three, there is no reason for Sazed to have that process continued.  The Pits were put into place by Preservation to forcefully siphon off some of Ruin's power, but Sazed controls both now.  I do not believe he needs something like the Pits to create atium, if it is a willing action.

 

As for the second bit, Brandon has said that Sazed would drop a single "Harmony" as opposed to Ruin and Preservation.

 

@xXEldestXx

 

Preservation was able to fiddle with the rules of Allomancy a bit with the replacement of the external temporal metals but he didn't design the system.  Magic systems come about naturally as a result of the interactions of shards and planets, but they are not actively planned.  So Preservation didn't say "oh, I'm going to make atium let people see into the future" that is just how it ended up working out as a result of the interactions between Preservation, Ruin, and Scadrial.