Syl: "But I've helped men kill before."

[Argent]

Yea, it looks like her memories are a part of the restoration process induced by the strengthening of the Nahel bond.

[Thought]

But she said she had helped men, not Kaladin kill before. I think she would have phrased it differently if what you said was the case.

 

She also said she wasn't clear on the details, and that her memory was confusing on the point. From what she said, she couldn't have phrased it more specifically even if what I said was the case (which itself isn't proof that what I said is the case, just that it is consistent with the information we have).

[DeployParachute]

Excellent, thanks for that. 

But now I'm thinking about Ym's spren, and am sad.

 

I'm curious about how much a Surgebinder's natural lifespan is affected by the bond... I seem to remember someone getting a RAFO on that from Brandon. But there will have been (and will be) unnatural deaths of Surgebinders.

 

Ha, yeah.  The person who asked that question at the Phoenix signing was me, and he called it a "big" R.A.F.O. as he tossed me my card.  I was rereading WoK this weekend and came across the Syl quote that is the discussion of this thread, and started wondering.  Glad I was able to find an existing thread for this very topic.  My first thoughts on the possibility of KR having lengthened lifespans due to the bond came after I had read about the splitting of the 10 books into two parts, the later half possibly occurring many many years after the first (well outside the normal lifespan of a human even).  That combined with the fact that several current viewpoint characters were going to be present in those later books, I just made a natural conclusion that I felt Brandon would feel safe to answer.  I was wrong, but also his R.A.F.O. seemed like an answer in of itself.

 

Yeah, I think she was pre-Recreance in that her previously bonded surgebinder died.  It seems unlikely that the entire body of KR that ever existed was alive at the time of the Recreance.  I would also imagine that not every KR who fought in the desolations survived.  Beyond that, I would think that some (perhaps many) aged and died.  Some aged KR, perhaps seeing the need, may have released the bond so that their spren could bond to someone younger and more able in order to make a new KR.  I imagine that such occurrences would not result in the death of the bonded spren.

 

I also voted that she was bonded pre-recreance.  As to the KR aging, I think there are two possibilities to this:  they either age very slowly, or they don't age at all.  I base this off of how the Stormlight regeneration seems to work, which would naturally counter the biological degeneration of cells over time that we call "aging".  Lots of magic systems in the cosmere seem to include an eternal youth factor, and I don't see the Nahel bond and Stormlight healing as likely to be much different.  

 

I personally find it more likely that if bonded spren had their KR die on them, it was due to death while fighting in the desolations (which were known to be brutal even for experienced KR), rather than of old age.  Purely speculation and assumptions on my part though.  Will be interesting to see it play out.

Edited May 26, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Pathfinder]

Regarding why Syl has trouble remembering the past vs Wyndle, didn't Wyndle and another spren (I think Pattern), explain that some spren are better about transitioning from shadesmar to the physical? And it would also stand to reason that since part of Lift is in shadesmar due to the Nightwatcher, that Wyndle might be also fluid amongst the two by proxy?

 

edit: to clarify, I am not stating whether or not she existed pre-recreance, just as to why she has trouble remembering, while Wyndle recalls everything.

Edited May 27, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[kari-no-sugata]

I have this idea that perhaps spren have some kind of "group" memory. Consider the following two quotes.
  

"I was not me when the Knights Radiant existed. It is complex to explain. I have always existed. We are not 'born' as men are, and we cannot truly die as men do. Patterns are eternal, as is fire, as is the wind. As are all spren. Yet, I was not in this state. I was not... aware."

 

She settled back, thinking about the powers described. Would the others be appearing, then? As she and Jasnah had? Men who could glide elegantly across the ground as if they weighed nothing, women who could melt stone with a touch. Pattern had offered some few insights, but mostly he had been of use telling her what sounded likely to have been real, and what from the book was a mistake based on hearsay. His memory was spotty, but growing much better, and hearing what the book said often made him remember more.

 

I seem to remember Syl saying somewhere that all spren are one... but can't find the quote.

 

So anyway - Pattern was around at the time of the Knights Radiant but had a very weak existence it seems. In a sense, all spren alive today were alive then... for a given value of alive.

I thought it was interesting that Pattern could sift truth from lies in the book. Do Cryptics keep detailed histories, enough that Pattern could have learned from them enough to critique the book...? Or instead, maybe they have some kind of group memory instead? Normally, the first option would be considered the only possible solution but given how odd spren are, it's difficult to know what's really possible. It's also possible that Pattern could observe and remember events from the time of the Radiants but this seems unlikely from how he describes himself then.

[jefftucker0525]

Also, when does either WoK or WoR specifically say that every single KR broke their oaths. Isnt it possible that a few remained true to them and as such their spren survived wholely intact?

 

 

And, kinda unrelated, but i remember that in the Diagram there was something about making sure the new KR knew why the old KR broke their oaths, this could be kinda important because they must of had a really solid reason for murdering their closest friends, just sayin.

[Moogle]

Also, when does either WoK or WoR specifically say that every single KR broke their oaths. Isnt it possible that a few remained true to them and as such their spren survived wholely intact?

 

Not every single Radiant did it. The epigraphs imply 9/10 did:

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths.  The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine

-          From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

Edited May 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly]

I think that an entire order - 1 of 10 - betrayed. That was the Skybreakers.

[Aether]

That passage can be interpreted both ways. Either an entire Order stayed true, or only one in ten Radiants in general did.

[Moogle]

That passage can be interpreted both ways. Either an entire Order stayed true, or only one in ten Radiants in general did.

 

This is true, but I do think Swimmingly is correct in his thinking. We know that the Skybreakers are still around, after all, even if they're no longer Surgebinders. It's the philosophy that makes the Order anyways, not the powers.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

 It's the philosophy that makes the Order, anyways, not the powers.

Regardless my agreement or dissent on the topic, I like the way you put that 

[Firiel]

Since it wasn't said before, allow me to suggest that Syl's helped Kaladin kill before.

 

As we saw with Pattern and Shallan, it is possible for a nahal bond to wax and wayne over time. It may be that Kaladin had a stronger connection with Syl in the past. Additionally, as we see in WoR, much of Kaladin's natural martial skill comes from that bond.

 

Ha ha!  I see what you did there!

 

Either a great pun or the best misspelling in history.

[Aether]

This is true, but I do think Swimmingly is correct in his thinking. We know that the Skybreakers are still around, after all, even if they're no longer Surgebinders. It's the philosophy that makes the Order anyways, not the powers.

I am not sure where I stand on this myself. I get the feeling that the "Skybreakers" are mostly a creation of Nale. While he might have just hijacked an existing entity, I think it plausible that... Actually, I am changing my mind as I am writing this. I find it highly doubtful that there would not have been any loyalists amongst the other Orders at all, but as others have argued, the nature of the Skybreakers would likely have made the entire Order stay true. The group could have then easily absorbed any other stragglers from the other Orders.

[Pathfinder]

I am not sure where I stand on this myself. I get the feeling that the "Skybreakers" are mostly a creation of Nale. While he might have just hijacked an existing entity, I think it plausible that... Actually, I am changing my mind as I am writing this. I find it highly doubtful that there would not have been any loyalists amongst the other Orders at all, but as others have argued, the nature of the Skybreakers would likely have made the entire Order stay true. The group could have then easily absorbed any other stragglers from the other Orders.

My only issue with this is the idea that Nale created it. The original skybreakers practically forced themselves on him. They organized themselves and begged him to head their order. Eventually he relented. So it could be the organization persisted after the oaths were broken, and Nale was like "well FINE, if you are still gonna use the name and copy what I am doing, I should at least make sure you stay in line and further my goals". 

[entropicscholar]

Known:

A Radiant-spren bonded to a Knight Radiant dies if that Knight betrays their oaths.

 

Theory:

If the Knight Radiant does not betray their oaths, but instead dies, the Spren will be perfectly fine, and free to either return to Shaedsmar or form a new bond.

 

Syl:

I think she bonded to Knights before, but they all died. she likely had many friends who died in the Recreance, but her Knight did not betray his/her oaths along with the rest (or, she was in Shaedsmar at the time).

[aheerema]

The general consensus is that Syl is a Pre-Recreance spren.

 

Her radiant died (we don't know if this is through battle or just old age, especially since we don't know the effects of the Nahel bond on lifespan) and she returned to Shadesmar to wait for another bond.

 

The Recreance occurred and she was forbidden from bonding again.

 

She came back through from Shadesmar to bond with Kaladin against the Stormfather's wishes and lost her memories.

 

Thanks for everyone's input! There are a few new questions that came from this that deserve their own threads, and that I might pursue unless they already exist. For example, Pathfinder's question about spren transitions.