Shard Categories

[+Child of Hodor]

I wanted to find a slightly different way of looking at the Shards and how they are divided up. 

I tried to sort the 10 shards we know of https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard & the shard Brandon hinted at http://www.17thshard.com/forum/?section=findpost&pid=46099 into categories based on the focus of their intent. By focus I mean Odium is a feeling towards others while Autonomy is not a feeling, but a way of interacting with others, being free of the control of others. I then thought about those categories and what was missing from them or what else could be in them to try and figure out what the remaining shards could be. 

I highlighted in yellow the ideas I think are missing from each category. I kind of left Endowment hanging out there close to Working with Others Category, but it may not fit in there. These are just a framework for brainstorming feel free to disagree or suggest your own.  

Focus of Intent	Shard Name	Definition, Synonyms & Related Ideas
Working with Others	Dominion	Control, Mastery, Command,  Authority
	Autonomy	Self-directing, Freedom, Self-government
	Honor	To fulfill an agreement, Keen sense of ethical conduct, Integrity, Respect
	Collaboration / Cooperation / Interact as equals
	Deception / Guile / Tickery (Hide + Survive shard might cover these ideas)
	Endowment	Give, bequeath or provide an asset, quality or ability. Invest, Equip, Bless, Gift
Lifecycle of Existence	Preservation	Maintain, Keep as is, prevent change or decay, Middle of Lifecycle
	Cultivation	Grow, Develop, Improve, Encourage, Middle of Lifecycle
	Ruin	Entropy, Decay, Rot, Destroy, Death, Ending of Lifecycle
	Beginning of Lifecycle/Creation/Ingenuity/Novelty/Creativity
Feelings Towards          Others	Devotion	Love, Loyalty, Dedication to a person or cause, Religious Worship
	Odium	Hatred, or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions, revulsion
	Guilt	Feeling of blame or responsibility for the consequence of one's actions. Sorrow
	Envy	Jealous of what others have, quasi-opposite of endowment. Covet. Hunger. Desire.
Attributes of the Self	Ambition	Desire to achieve, aspiration, hope, purpose, drive
	Hide + Survive Shard (Wisdom, Practicality, Deception, Fear)
	Curiosity	Desire for knowledge, intelligence, discovery, exploration

 

 

 

[Ashspren]

Brandon has hinted about one Shard possibly being Ingenuity...

Quote

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]
Is Ingenuity a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Umm...maybe. *smiles slyly*

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Ashspren

[Ishar]

Something very similar to this is also discussed in this thread (and I believe there also may be a link to a third thread on this topic. Personally I think that if the shards are grouped in this way they will mimic the allomantic metals (although technically the metals would mimic them)

 

Edit: I just realized I completely screwed up my use of parentheses. Oh well.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Ishar

[goody153]

4 hours ago, Ashspren said:

Brandon has hinted about one Shard possibly being Ingenuity...

This "still not canon but probably is" shard is so interesting conceptually

[Fanghur Rahl]

Personally, I think ‘Aptitude’ would be a better name for a Shard than ‘Ingenuity’. But who knows? 

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Personally, I think ‘Aptitude’ would be a better name for a Shard than ‘Ingenuity’. But who knows? 

Depends on how you are viewing the Intent. Id see those as different, personally, since Aptitude is more of an internal quality (something you possess) and is very general, while Ingenuity has a little more implied Outward Action and is also more specifically a Creative ideal

[Fanghur Rahl]

Well, I guess. But it could be said that ingenuity is the ‘aptitude’ of being creative. Regardless, I just think ‘Aptitude’ works better as a proper noun than ‘Ingenuity’ does. At any rate, the two concepts are clearly closely related if nothing else.

[supersmith]

Personally I still think wisdom is a shard form hoids conversation with shallan.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

I don't see why there would be a shard of Envy. Remember that the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium, the most powerful entity possible in the Cosmere. What would an entity like that possibly be envious of?

[Fanghur Rahl]

28 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

I don't see why there would be a shard of Envy. Remember that the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium, the most powerful entity possible in the Cosmere. What would an entity like that possibly be envious of?

The Gods of most monotheistic religions are supposedly all-powerful too, and yet are unambiguously portrayed as being extremely jealous (worship no one but me!). Admittedly, jealousy and envy are two different (complimentary, really) things, but still. So there's no real reason why Adonalsium couldn't have these attributes as well. After all, it had 'Dominion' as one of its attributes, and jealousy/envy is arguably at least tangentially related to dominion. Besides, the way I look at it, we've only had two unambiguously malevolent Shards so far, namely Ruin and Odium. Dominion may be a third, but that can at least be arguable. I think there must be at least one more out there, and Jealous or Avarice seem like good options.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

23 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The Gods of most monotheistic religions are supposedly all-powerful too, and yet are unambiguously portrayed as being extremely jealous (worship no one but me!). Admittedly, jealousy and envy are two different (complimentary, really) things, but still. So there's no real reason why Adonalsium couldn't have these attributes as well. After all, it had 'Dominion' as one of its attributes, and jealousy/envy is arguably at least tangentially related to dominion. Besides, the way I look at it, we've only had two unambiguously malevolent Shards so far, namely Ruin and Odium. Dominion may be a third, but that can at least be arguable. I think there must be at least one more out there, and Jealous or Avarice seem like good options.

I disagree that jealousy and envy are the same thing when we're talking about gods. We use them interchangeably when talking about people, but when we're dealing with omnipotent beings, the similarities break down. Envy is the desire for something that belongs to someone else. But if you're a God, the creator of the universe, there's a strong argument that everything is, in a sense, yours. You created it, after all. You can't envy something that's already yours; it's in direct contradiction with the definition. 

I don't think there's anything inherently malevolent about Dominion, either. It's just an archaism for "authority over another person, place, or group." It can be abused, but no more so than any other attribute. Certainly it's less inherently violent or destructive than the sort of universal entropy of Ruin. Maybe it only seems inherently malevolent to us modern readers because we live in a time and culture so far removed from throne-and-altar style absolute monarchies. To us, anything less than a partnership between two perfect equals makes us uneasy. But historically the understanding of the term "dominion" has been much more neutral.

[Fanghur Rahl]

3 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

I disagree that jealousy and envy are the same thing when we're talking about gods. We use them interchangeably when talking about people, but when we're dealing with omnipotent beings, the similarities break down. Envy is the desire for something that belongs to someone else. But if you're a God, the creator of the universe, there's a strong argument that everything is, in a sense, yours. You created it, after all. You can't envy something that's already yours; it's in direct contradiction with the definition. 

I don't think there's anything inherently malevolent about Dominion, either. It's just an archaism for "authority over another person, place, or group." It can be abused, but no more so than any other attribute. Certainly it's less inherently violent or destructive than the sort of universal entropy of Ruin. Maybe it only seems inherently malevolent to us modern readers because we live in a time and culture so far removed from throne-and-altar style absolute monarchies. To us, anything less than a partnership between two perfect equals makes us uneasy. But historically the understanding of the term "dominion" has been much more neutral.

I agree that jealousy and envy are not the same things, despite the unfortunate fact that most people tend to assume that they are. So I actually agree with you that 'Envy' is probably not a very good option for Adonalsium. 'Jealousy' on the other hand would work just fine; like I said, there is overwhelming precedent for this even in modern religions involving omnipotent gods. Although, technically in the case of Adonalsium, 'Envy' could still work as well, since Adonalsium was technically only a little g deity, since the true big G deity is implied to reside in the Beyond. Adonalsium seems to be the big G deity only of the three realms we know, but not for all reality.

And I only listed Dominion as possibly being a malevolent Shard because the Dakhor magic system seems to be most heavily aligned to Dominion, and it's pretty hard to see that as anything other than manifestly evil, at least from what we've seen of it. (Yes, I know that technically on Sel all magic ultimately stems from both Devotion and Dominion, but I don't think all subsystems are 50/50 from both).

Edited August 6, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

27 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

And I only listed Dominion as possibly being a malevolent Shard because the Dakhor magic system seems to be most heavily aligned to Dominion, and it's pretty hard to see that as anything other than manifestly evil, at least from what we've seen of it. (Yes, I know that technically on Sel all magic ultimately stems from both Devotion and Dominion, but I don't think all subsystems are 50/50 from both).

Actually, I think the Dakhor are significantly aligned to Devotion as well. After all, they seem to be a group of monks whose fanaticism (aka DEVOTION) to Jaddeth lead them to think nothing of sacrificing themselves for the benefit of Dilaf. After all, 50 of them had to die for Dilaf to gain his Dor-resistance. Though to be fair, this could be seen as an expression of not the monks' Devotion but Dilaf's Dominion over them. In which case it gets a lot fuzzier. Possibly a symptom of how Aona and Skai's Investiture was put through a Shardic blender?

I do largely agree with your point about Jealousy as a potential Shard, though. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

2 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Actually, I think the Dakhor are significantly aligned to Devotion as well. After all, they seem to be a group of monks whose fanaticism (aka DEVOTION) to Jaddeth lead them to think nothing of sacrificing themselves for the benefit of Dilaf. After all, 50 of them had to die for Dilaf to gain his Dor-resistance. Though to be fair, this could be seen as an expression of not the monks' Devotion but Dilaf's Dominion over them. In which case it gets a lot fuzzier. Possibly a symptom of how Aona and Skai's Investiture was put through a Shardic blender?

Yeah, I kinda got the vibe that 'Devotion' was meant more in the sense of a loose synonym of 'Love' and 'Compassion' than it was in the kind of corrupt sycophantism of the Dakhor monks and fanatical faith in general. Her Shardpool certainly conveyed a vibe of benevolence from whatever is left of her. After all, the Seons are basically Splinters of Devotion, and there is no question that they are extremely loving and compassionate, about as different from the Dakhor monks as it's possible to get. Like I said, it's always seemed to me that while there's technically only a single system of magic on Sel, which both Devotion and Dominion invested themselves into creating, their investments weren't evenly distributed across each of the subsystems. Some like AonDor and Forging seem to contain more of Devotion, while others like Dakhor and Bloodsealing seem to contain more of Dominion. At least that's how I see it.

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Calderis]

@Fanghur Rahl that's kind of the problem with the Shards though.

Brandon has said outright that none of the Shards are good or evil. Morality is something that comes from the person holding the power. 

Honor stripped of all morality is essential just holding to your word. Oaths and bonds and promises... Regardless of if those are worthwhile or good. 

Love, stripped of anything to make it good or bad... Is basically just belief/dedication/servitude towards something.

The quote we have about Odium from frost, "he is God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues which gave it context," needs to be applied to all of the Shards. 

Hate can be channeled and contextualized and used for good. Even Ruin. Destruction can serve a purpose. 

And Love can be twisted into something perverse and destructive as well. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

Well, they way I look at it is that if we can't make moral judgements against the Shards by virtue of the fact that ultimately they can't help but be the way their nature drives them to be, then ultimately we also can't make moral judgements against anyone else either because at some level the same holds true for all of us. I agree that in the case of the Shards this is far more extreme, but ultimately I think it's merely a difference in degree not category. By the standards of what most people would mean by terms like 'malevolent' and 'benevolent', Odium and Ruin are unambiguously malevolent while Devotion and Honor and Endowment certainly seem to merit the label of 'benevolent'; or at the very least those Shards certainly tend towards those respective directions.

Now, would this still be the case if, say, someone was holding the Shard of Ruin in addition to Honor? Or Odium in addition to Devotion (which would arguably result in a Shard of Indifference)? Well, maybe yes, maybe no, it would depend on how the various combinations manifested. But regardless, the basic point remains that we judge the moral character of someone on the basis of their nature and the actions they take based on it, not on precisely how they acquired the nature they have. A murdering psychopath is a murdering psychopath regardless of whether they were born that way or became so by means of physical trauma. I view the Shards in a similar way.

[Calderis]

@Fanghur Rahl that assumes that a Shard will turn out exactly the same regardless of the Vessel.

Quote

Necarion

Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them.  You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

source

I don't believe that's the case. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

Well, I'm undecided about how I feel about that; I tend to lean towards the camp of the vessels having SOME influence on how the shard's intent is expressed, but only within a certain range. To quote Oromis from the Inheritance Cycle: "You cannot gainsay a word's inherent nature. Twist it, yes. Guide it, yes. But not contravene its definition to imply the very opposite." Regardless though, it's still irrelevant to my point. Whether or not it would still be true if someone else were to hold the Shards, the fact still remains that Ati-Ruin and Rayse-Odium are unquestionably malevolent in nature; their actions make that perfectly clear. And in the case of Odium, assuming that that truly is the intent of the Shard, I have a very hard time seeing how anyone could manifest that intent in such a way that they wouldn't be a very unpleasant individual.

[+Child of Hodor]

14 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well, I'm undecided about how I feel about that; I tend to lean towards the camp of the vessels having SOME influence on how the shard's intent is expressed, but only within a certain range. To quote Oromis from the Inheritance Cycle: "You cannot gainsay a word's inherent nature. Twist it, yes. Guide it, yes. But not contravene its definition to imply the very opposite." Regardless though, it's still irrelevant to my point. Whether or not it would still be true if someone else were to hold the Shards, the fact still remains that Ati-Ruin and Rayse-Odium are unquestionably malevolent in nature; their actions make that perfectly clear. And in the case of Odium, assuming that that truly is the intent of the Shard, I have a very hard time seeing how anyone could manifest that intent in such a way that they wouldn't be a very unpleasant individual.

 

Quote

 

General Twitter 2018 (Jan. 1, 2018)
#2June 6, 2018

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

 

I agree a vessel can't change a shard much only nudge it a bit. Ati got to a point where he was OK with creating life to eventually destroy it. But when he was finally free it wasn't like he was giving the world a slow death. He started detonating ash mounds and causing tidal waves. The reason the planet wasn't destroyed right away was because Preservation's power was still being used to resist him and he was missing some of his power due to TLR hiding the atium. 

Odium by itself is the most dangerous, but I think the idea of going around killing all the other Shards is more a thing of Rayse. Another Vessel might have been content to take up residence on a planet and make the beings living on it hate and fight each other. If another Shard came by they would probably attack it, but left on their own they may have been happy to play in their hate-filled sandbox. If Rayse had held Ruin he might have said "Let's go break everything in the Cosmere" and not bothered creating a new planet with Preservation. 

I do think all of these Shards are dangerous separated from other attributes. Preservation called TLR "perfect" in M:SH one way to preserve a consistent society is by having a permanent ruling class led by an "immortal" emperor and violent oppression was small price to pay for that consistency. That said, Ruin and Odium are particularly destructive forces. 

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

I think Ati is probably the best reason to doubt the claim that Vessels can have a significant effect of how the intent is expressed. After all, he was explicitly said to be a kind and generous man, and yet even he ended up being a omnicidal maniac eventually. 

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I think Ati is probably the best reason to doubt the claim that Vessels can have a significant effect of how the intent is expressed. After all, he was explicitly said to be a kind and generous man, and yet even he ended up being a omnicidal maniac eventually. 

You misunderstand what I mean by interpretation. Interpretation is not what they choose to do with the power, it is what they truly believe and interpret that power to be.

I believe that Ati saw the power as a monster that needed to be contained. His kind and generous nature were in direct conflict with his own interpretation of what Ruin was. 

He became the monster that his mind created. 

Edit: OB spoilers. 

Spoiler

I'm very excited to see where the "Unity" storyline goes. I personally believe that Unity is just a reinterpretation of Honor. Similar core concepts with the bonds and connections, but drastically different expressions. 

Regardless, I'm very very excited to see a single Shard charge hands. I don't think that the names of the Shards that we've seen are the names if the Shards at all. Just the interpretations of the only Vessels that have ever held them. 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

You misunderstand what I mean by interpretation. Interpretation is not what they choose to do with the power, it is what they truly believe and interpret that power to be.

I believe that Ati saw the power as a monster that needed to be contained. His kind and generous nature were in direct conflict with his own interpretation of what Ruin was. 

He became the monster that his mind created. 

Edit: OB spoilers. 

  Hide contents

I'm very excited to see where the "Unity" storyline goes. I personally believe that Unity is just a reinterpretation of Honor. Similar core concepts with the bonds and connections, but drastically different expressions. 

Regardless, I'm very very excited to see a single Shard charge hands. I don't think that the names of the Shards that we've seen are the names if the Shards at all. Just the interpretations of the only Vessels that have ever held them. 

 

 

I actually hadn’t thought of it quite that way. You do make a valid point. Kind of a ‘monster from the id’ situation. I grant that that’s a plausible theory.

[+Child of Hodor]

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You misunderstand what I mean by interpretation. Interpretation is not what they choose to do with the power, it is what they truly believe and interpret that power to be.

I believe that Ati saw the power as a monster that needed to be contained. His kind and generous nature were in direct conflict with his own interpretation of what Ruin was. 

He became the monster that his mind created. 

Edit: OB spoilers. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm very excited to see where the "Unity" storyline goes. I personally believe that Unity is just a reinterpretation of Honor. Similar core concepts with the bonds and connections, but drastically different expressions. 

Regardless, I'm very very excited to see a single Shard charge hands. I don't think that the names of the Shards that we've seen are the names if the Shards at all. Just the interpretations of the only Vessels that have ever held them. 

 

 

That's a cool way of thinking of it. I feel like the WoB I posted above previously suggests that Ati's resisting so hard for so long had a softening effect on the Shard, but I do like what your idea. He thought it was a monster, so even after he softened it, it was still monstrous in how it manifested. Like how Ati appeared to Kelsier as a weird spider infested puppet man. 

 

Quote

 

#18 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96-holiday-signing/#e3187

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

 

 

This WoB kind of supports that idea. Sazed was able to view these two powers as canceling each other out and being at peace and so they did. They could have been "Discord" or something similar where he's multiple personality disorder oscillating between wanting to protect and destroy. Ultimately coming to a similar conclusion of not being able to do much, but instead of having a hard time taking action in the first place he would decisively take a destructive action and quickly change his mind and take a separate action to protecting cancel the first one out, and vice-versa. 

 

OB spoilers:

 

Spoiler

 

In OB Hoid explains to Shallan that there are 3 types of people in the world: The ones that jump out of the way of the boulder rolling down hill and just let it do it's thing, the ones that try to stop it and get run over by it and the ones that run along side and try to nudge it. Hoid thinks the third approach is the best. 

He wasn't talking about Vessels of Shards, he was talking about how he sees his role in the Cosmere. But, I think it applies to Shards as well. The Shard and it's Intent/Nature/Purpose is the boulder and the Vessel is the person trying to direct it. The best the Vessel can do is nudge it. 

Unity could be a re-interpretation by placing emphasis on a different aspect of what Honor represents. Instead of focusing on Honoring individual oaths it refocuses on how those oaths bind individuals together into a larger whole and that promotes Unity. Maintaining Oaths, Bonds and following codes of behavior are still crucial to Unity, but a different aspect of why they're important is emphasized. The Shard Honor's nature hasn't been fundamentally altered, it's still a boulder rolling down hill, but it's been nudged so that it's rolling things over with a different side of itself . 

 

 

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

With that in mind, I wonder what would have happened if the reportedly kind and generous Ati had picked up Odium instead of Ruin? How would he have dealt with being the vessel for "God's own divine hatred, separate from the virtues that gave it context?"

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a cool way of thinking of it. I feel like the WoB I posted above previously suggests that Ati's resisting so hard for so long had a softening effect on the Shard, but I do like what your idea. He thought it was a monster, so even after he softened it, it was still monstrous in how it manifested. Like how Ati appeared to Kelsier as a weird spider infested puppet man. 

 

 

This WoB kind of supports that idea. Sazed was able to view these two powers as canceling each other out and being at peace and so they did. They could have been "Discord" or something similar where he's multiple personality disorder oscillating between wanting to protect and destroy. Ultimately coming to a similar conclusion of not being able to do much, but instead of having a hard time taking action in the first place he would decisively take a destructive action and quickly change his mind and take a separate action to protecting cancel the first one out, and vice-versa. 

 

OB spoilers:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In OB Hoid explains to Shallan that there are 3 types of people in the world: The ones that jump out of the way of the boulder rolling down hill and just let it do it's thing, the ones that try to stop it and get run over by it and the ones that run along side and try to nudge it. Hoid thinks the third approach is the best. 

He wasn't talking about Vessels of Shards, he was talking about how he sees his role in the Cosmere. But, I think it applies to Shards as well. The Shard and it's Intent/Nature/Purpose is the boulder and the Vessel is the person trying to direct it. The best the Vessel can do is nudge it. 

Unity could be a re-interpretation by placing emphasis on a different aspect of what Honor represents. Instead of focusing on Honoring individual oaths it refocuses on how those oaths bind individuals together into a larger whole and that promotes Unity. Maintaining Oaths, Bonds and following codes of behavior are still crucial to Unity, but a different aspect of why they're important is emphasized. The Shard Honor's nature hasn't been fundamentally altered, it's still a boulder rolling down hill, but it's been nudged so that it's rolling things over with a different side of itself . 

 

 

Exactly. OB spoilers. 

Spoiler

Unity and honor would just be a focal shift of the same core concept. Outwardly they would appear fairly different when they actually aren't. That's precisely why I think there's more flexibility than people give it credit for. 

All of the same elements would be present, but the strength of the different elements would vary, creating something that an external observer may not actually recognize as the same thing. 

 

6 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

With that in mind, I wonder what would have happened if the reportedly kind and generous Ati had picked up Odium instead of Ruin? How would he have dealt with being the vessel for "God's own divine hatred, separate from the virtues that gave it context?"

I think we'd need to know Ati better to guess at that accurately. 

I have said myself that hate can be channeled and used for things that are positive... But if I were to take up Odium I already know it would be a very negative thing, because in my opinion at least, the vast majority of the time hatred is something toxic, and so, by my belief in what the intents actually are Odium would become something toxic and destructive. 

What Ati would have made of it... I don't know. All I know is I believe he thought Ruin was the greater threat and that he wished to contain it, and in so doing doomed himself.