Shardplate creation.

[Scion of the Mists]

9 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

1) The spren are the Plate. This is the most common theory out there. It makes sense, considering the fact that Kaladin draws the lesser spren near him both times he's about to swear the Fourth Ideal, which is when Windrunners get their Plate. The one problem I have with this theory, which I didn't see @Calderis mention, is how the heck do you regrow Plate then? If the Plate can be destroyed, what happens to the spren that make it up? When you regrow it, wouldn't you have to get more of that lesser spren to do so? Even if the Plate being given Stormlight attracts the lesser spren needed to regrow the Plate, wouldn't we see spren showing up around Plate being regrown? I could kind of see that the spren don't show up in the Physical Realm when Plate is being made, for whatever reason, but that just feels weird to me.

Spren are sentient Investiture, right?  If they've been damaged, it makes sense that you'd feed them more Investiture to heal them.  @Pagerunner pointed out above how the Lightspren react to the Investiture of the Highstorm - they seem to "feed" off it, per Azure.  

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Spren are sentient Investiture, right?  If they've been damaged, it makes sense that you'd feed them more Investiture to heal them.  @Pagerunner pointed out above how the Lightspren react to the Investiture of the Highstorm - they seem to "feed" off it, per Azure.  

But if they are "spren metal," like a Shardblade, how are they damaged in the first place? 

[Scion of the Mists]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

29 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Spren are sentient Investiture, right?  If they've been damaged, it makes sense that you'd feed them more Investiture to heal them.  @Pagerunner pointed out above how the Lightspren react to the Investiture of the Highstorm - they seem to "feed" off it, per Azure.  

But if they are "spren metal," like a Shardblade, how are they damaged in the first place? 

Are sure that *all* "spren metal" is indestructible?  I mean, obviously Shardblades are, but they're made from sapient spren, the highest level of spren, and are the result of a strong bond between spren and Radiant.  If you have a weaker bond, and a weaker spren, why would it be as strong?  Damage to Plate could be the equivalent of splintering off some of the spren's Investiture, and regrowing the Plate would require an infusion of Investiture to be made whole again.  

Plus, we've no indication that the other godmetals we've seen (the Scadrian ones) are indestructible.  

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Are sure that *all* "spren metal" is indestructible?  I mean, obviously Shardblades

No. I'm fully aware that other God metals are malleable, but they also aren't made of something with a mind. 

I don't see why a spren that is functionally similar to a Nahel Spren, a major component of the "cousin" spren idea, would be so functionally different in physical form. Less investiture would just mean less metal and more spren needed to create the armor. 

I'd be more interested in why they behave differently if that's the case. 

[Rhapsody]

6 hours ago, ScarletSabre said:

I actually posted a theory a long while ago about how I thought Shardplate was crystalised/hardened Stormlight, given that Stormlight can make it regrow, and that Radiants in Dalinar's visions didn't glow, instead using the excess Stormlight to create Plate and "retracting" it by reabsorbing the Light.

I should find that old thread, it may have some useful details or theories for this....

 

I really like that explanation.

Also we know that in the Cosmere matter (Shardplate) and investiture (stormlight) are virtually the same thing. So creating Shardplate/Radiant plate could be simply a matter of knowing the right transformation. I could see the spren helping here. Initializing the first time a Radiant manages to transform Stormlight to Plate so to speak. Also if plate was cristallized Stormlight it would also explain why it remains behind after the Radiants abandon it. I mean it is a physical thing why should it vanish. Stormlight would be needed to power and heal it because when it is damaged it looses a bit of mass/investiture and that must be replaced and we don't see Radiants use gemstones in their plate because they can use the stormlight they breathe in for the same purposes. Dismissing Plate then would be the inversion of creating it using the same transformation (in the other direction).

[TheManKnownAsHoid]

So I think the biggest evidence for the lesser spren theory is the fact the helmet retracts in Shardplate when worn by its Radiant, but no longer seems to do so after the Recreance. The same goes for the rest of the plate. After the Recreance, men lost the ability to dismiss their Shardplate at will. So they would have to have spren keyed to the Radiants Identity, but were killed by the death of the oaths during the Recreance. If we assume the Plate is made of stormlight, dismissing it would leave a massive loss of Stormlight. During Dalinars vision when he is falling from the sky with the Windrunner, he had just dismissed his plate to allow himself to be lashed, but was not glowing with Stormlight. So it would be extremely impractical to dismiss Plate composed of Stormlight.  

Edited July 17, 2018 by TheManKnownAsHoid

[StrikerEZ]

34 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

So I think the biggest evidence for the lesser spren theory is the fact the helmet retracts in Shardplate when worn by its Radiant, but no longer seems to do so after the Recreance. The same goes for the rest of the plate. After the Recreance, men lost the ability to dismiss their Shardplate at will. So they would have to have spren keyed to the Radiants Identity, but were killed by the death of the oaths during the Recreance. If we assume the Plate is made of stormlight, dismissing it would leave a massive loss of Stormlight. During Dalinars vision when he is falling from the sky with the Windrunner, he had just dismissed his plate to allow himself to be lashed, but was not glowing with Stormlight. So it would be extremely impractical to dismiss Plate composed of Stormlight.  

Dismissing it wouldn't waste the Stormlight. It'd be just like taking back the Stormlight a Radiant uses in Lashing something.

[TheManKnownAsHoid]

But the amount of Stormlight it would take to solidify when retrieved would make the Radiant glow, but Dalinar wasnt in the vision

[Bigmikey357]

I still like the idea that Living Shardplate is composed of cousin spren. Syl's comment about having kids, training them to harass Kaladin to me seems like an indicator instead of a non sequitur. 

Here's how I envision the process working. We know that a Radient gains power with each Oath spoken and internalized. In RPG terms their MP bar goes up with each oath. At the 3rd oath they gain a sprenblade (most Orders); those blades are nearly infinitely malleable but their traditional, 'base' form is a blade. When the next oath is spoken, more investiture is available to the Radient, enough so that the head spren is able to direct their 'cousins' to become solid in the Physical Realm. The 'base' form for them is Plate but they are infinitely malleable as well. The higher spren establish the framework and the lesser spren that come to the call fill in the gaps, obeying the mandate to become solid. The lesser spren are not specific; they go to their places when called and go their own way when dismissed or are knocked out of the framework due to damage. Spren do not die. In dead plate, the Spren that came to call were locked into the framework, the base form and are only released when that part of the plate is damaged. When that section is regrown it's simply calling other like spren to fill in the part of the missing framework. It doesn't have to be the same spren answering the call, only the same type. If someone knocks a brick from the side of your house you replace it with another brick. And maybe the lesser spren do scream or feel pain, but they cannot voice it in a way anyone can hear. Do bacteria scream? Maybe, but who knows? A cake has a spren. Does that cake scream when you eat it? Again who knows?

Just like a gem in the pommel allows a dead Shardblade to behave something like a living one, gemstones allow dead plate to perform some of the functionality of live Plate. Neither are malleable because that function requires a live mind to direct it; humans cannot interface directly with plate and couldn't even dismiss a blade without even the limited bond provided by the pommel gem. Stormlight is the energy source. Electricity powering equipment. Dead plates and dead blades are like computers operating in protected mode; limited function, basic features, no extras.

[Rhapsody]

7 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

But the amount of Stormlight it would take to solidify when retrieved would make the Radiant glow, but Dalinar wasnt in the vision

But in the Vision he looked like himself. So perhaps the Vision wouldn't show the stormlight since Dalinar himself wasn't holding any.

[Calderis]

53 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

But the amount of Stormlight it would take to solidify when retrieved would make the Radiant glow, but Dalinar wasnt in the vision

This is why I tend to think on terms of "crystallized" stormlight. It's not condensed and solid. It's a crystalline structure grown. Have you ever seen crystals grown? The amount of crystal you get from a small amount of liquid can be pretty impressive. 

It would explain the fragility, and the size on a (relatively) small amount of stormlight. 

An additional spren theory, put forward by @Yata on discord that I actually really like, and will edit into the OP.

The Radiant creates the framework that we see with Stormlight, and the Spren enter, and are not stripped of their own identity, and not bonded, but seeded with investiture from the Spren and Radiant, similar to what Sja-anat has done to Glys. 

They aren't killed, and they aren't bonded, but become in essence the bonded pairs "children" as Glys is Sja-anat's son. 

Per this WoB, the Radiant and their bonded Spren are becoming one individual spiritually, with two minds. 

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

source

If the Spren and Radiant are one individual, then their identity should be matched. Seeding the power of the Spren into the lesser spren should create the "familiarity" that @Pagerunner mentions.

This is a spren theory that I can actually get behind.

[StrikerEZ]

54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Here's how I envision the process working. We know that a Radient gains power with each Oath spoken and internalized. In RPG terms their MP bar goes up with each oath. At the 3rd oath they gain a sprenblade (most Orders); those blades are nearly infinitely malleable but their traditional, 'base' form is a blade. When the next oath is spoken, more investiture is available to the Radient, enough so that the head spren is able to direct their 'cousins' to become solid in the Physical Realm. The 'base' form for them is Plate but they are infinitely malleable as well. The higher spren establish the framework and the lesser spren that come to the call fill in the gaps, obeying the mandate to become solid. The lesser spren are not specific; they go to their places when called and go their own way when dismissed or are knocked out of the framework due to damage. Spren do not die. In dead plate, the Spren that came to call were locked into the framework, the base form and are only released when that part of the plate is damaged. When that section is regrown it's simply calling other like spren to fill in the part of the missing framework. It doesn't have to be the same spren answering the call, only the same type. If someone knocks a brick from the side of your house you replace it with another brick. And maybe the lesser spren do scream or feel pain, but they cannot voice it in a way anyone can hear. Do bacteria scream? Maybe, but who knows? A cake has a spren. Does that cake scream when you eat it? Again who knows?

Eh, the main problem I have with this is we never see any lesser spren attracted to Plate when it is regrown. We've had at least one scene of Plate being regrown, so that would be a perfect chance on Brandon's part to foreshadow this relationship between spren and Plate. It just doesn't make sense to me that Plate can be made of spren when it can be destroyed and regrown without having to use new spren.

I could understand it being made of spren if just the physical form of the spren is destroyed, and the stormlight provided to the Plate just pulls the spren back into the Physical Realm. I don't like it as much as the theory that Plate is just crystallized stormlight, but that's the only way I can see lesser spren becoming Plate.

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If the Spren and Radiant are one individual, then their identity should be matched. Seeding the power of the Spren into the lesser spren should create the "familiarity" that @Pagerunner mentions.

This is a spren theory that I can actually get behind.

The problem I have with this one is the same as above. Even though you've solved the Identity/Investiture interference issue, how do you storming regrow Plate? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

Eh, the main problem I have with this is we never see any lesser spren attracted to Plate when it is regrown. We've had at least one scene of Plate being regrown, so that would be a perfect chance on Brandon's part to foreshadow this relationship between spren and Plate. It just doesn't make sense to me that Plate can be made of spren when it can be destroyed and regrown without having to use new spren.

I could understand it being made of spren if just the physical form of the spren is destroyed, and the stormlight provided to the Plate just pulls the spren back into the Physical Realm. I don't like it as much as the theory that Plate is just crystallized stormlight, but that's the only way I can see lesser spren becoming Plate.

The problem I have with this one is the same as above. Even though you've solved the Identity/Investiture interference issue, how do you storming regrow Plate? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I agree. It overcomes the Identity issue. I still don't understand how why the structure is so different, but my primary concern is and always has been the Identity issue. 

I can accept the investiture taking a different form far more easily. They would just be making the crystalline structure I was talking about instead of a solid metal. Again as page says, the Spren obviously feed on Stormlight and if it were spren I don't think breaking the plate would kill them, just damage their form and take investiture to heal. 

I'm not sold yet. It's just an option that I can reconcile with. 

[TheManKnownAsHoid]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is why I tend to think on terms of "crystallized" stormlight. It's not condensed and solid. It's a crystalline structure grown. Have you ever seen crystals grown? The amount of crystal you get from a small amount of liquid can be pretty impressive. 

It would explain the fragility, and the size on a (relatively) small amount of stormlight. 

In the scene where Kaladin helps Adolin in the duel, the helm he uses as a makeshift gauntlet very quickly drains his Stormlight, meaning it takes a lot to regrow or sustain. There is also the mention of regrowing Plate quickly cracking the gemstones used.

Edited July 17, 2018 by TheManKnownAsHoid

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, TheManKnownAsHoid said:

In the scene where Kaladin helps Adolin in the duel, the helm he uses as a makeshift gauntlet very quickly drains his Stormlight, meaning it takes a lot to regrow or sustain.

That is not what happened there. It did not drain him in the way it drains gems. It was pulling his light out much more quickly. 

Quote

Kaladin stumbled to a halt. He tried to suck in more, but all of his spheres were drained.
The helm, he realized, noticing that it was gushing Stormlight from its numerous cracks, yet hadn’t exploded. It had somehow fed upon his Stormlight.

He blocked multiple blows with the helm, and his Stormlight held it together when it normally would have exploded. It was leaking far more than it was healing. He pushed that helm well past its normal limits. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree. It overcomes the Identity issue. I still don't understand how why the structure is so different, but my primary concern is and always has been the Identity issue. 

I can accept the investiture taking a different form far more easily. They would just be making the crystalline structure I was talking about instead of a solid metal. Again as page says, the Spren obviously feed on Stormlight and if it were spren I don't think breaking the plate would kill them, just damage their form and take investiture to heal. 

I'm not sold yet. It's just an option that I can reconcile with. 

Yeah, I guess. It just really bothers me that we never see spren, or at least hear mentions of them, around the regrowth of Shardplate. I think it'd be much better if Shardplate's creation was facilitated by lesser spren and it's made of stormlight rather than being made by lesser spren. It would solve the Identity problem, the fact that Shadplate can be regrown, and the appearance of lesser spren when someone is about to get their Plate.

Edited July 17, 2018 by StrikerEZ

[Bigmikey357]

I could be wrong but I don't believe that we've ever seen Shardplate in the process of being regrown. We've seen it broken but not regrown. But if Shardplate was made of crystallized Stormlight, how would it know what form to take from say, a vambrace or a helm? I think to regrow plate a part of it must remember the whole and how those pieces fit together. If all plate was simply crystallized Stormlight then there would be no plate past the Recreance. Without a mind to direct the form the stuff, it wouldn't be able to maintain the structure. Or if it could, it still wouldn't be able to be repaired. War machines with irreplaceable parts. As far as not seeing the actual spren involved in the construction, in every instance we've seen spren in the Physical Realm in physical form, they have never visibly manifested as anything other than a Shardweapon. People see spren in the Physical Realm but they cannot touch them. The only spren in the Physical Realm that can be both seen and touched manifest as Shardweapons. In the case of Shardweapons, we don't see the Spren, we see the form that spren takes. Why should Plate be any different? Why would we be able to see the Spren coalesce? 

[Storyspren]

Still think we're going to see some radiants from the past regrown from their leftover plate at some point. Sticking to my guns on this one for the record. Radiants become sprenish and plate is just part of that. Head cannon for life.

[CrazyRioter]

Uh that is not how it works. Their souls are interwined with their spren but it breaks when they die and they move onto the Beyond.

[Fezzik]

I think what storyspren meant was in flashbacks from taln or ash, not ancient radiants who are still alive.

[Quantus]

Jumping in.  Im new to this discussion, so forgive me if my idea is less original than I hope, this might all be well-trod ground. It might be a new theory, it might be an old discarded one, but it's new to me. Id long been a fan of the Shardplate=Lesser Spren theory, it made sense after we learned what Shards were, and it sure seemed like the indication we were being given in OB.  

From this discussion it sounds like the main points that run counter to that are that

1)Plate can Heal, and Via stormlight

2)Syl doesnt care like she does for Fabrial Spren,

3)dead plate doesnt scream like dead shardblades do, and

4)they kept that shape post-recreance.

Did I miss anything? I think I have a theory that does not run afoul of any of those, and it feels encouragingly simple: The forth Ideal allows the Spren to summon Plate as the Spren-equivalent to Squires.  Now, per WOB the blades scream because they remember what it is to be alive, but the defining trait of the lesser spren is that they do not have that sort of lasting memory and/or Self.    They wouldnt be as detrimentally effected by the Recreance because they werent Bonded directly.  However, we know that Spren, for example, have no set size until you Measure one, after which they hold that size thereafter; this indicates that they are very easily affected by outside Perception, and will maintain the imposed Changes until acted on again (Somehow both Newtonian and Quantum, I enjoy it). So if the last "form they were given was that of Shardplate, but the Spren responsible "disappeared" via the Recreance, it would make sense that the plate-spren, absent new "orders" from their radiant Spren, would just maintain the forms they'd solidified into, instinctively pulling Stormlight to maintain said form when needed.  Not because they were killed and it's a screaming zombie-corpse, but just because they were never told to do anything else after they were Changed into these forms that have more specific Physical Aspects.

[recneps]

My main issue with Crystalline Stormlight as Plate:

How does it auto-fit? How can something with no form of intelligence - just plain Investiture-Matter in a crystalline structure - shrink/expand to better fit a person, as it has been described to do?

[Calderis]

@Quantus my issue with the "spren squire idea, whuc I've only seen once before. Is the identity one.

If the Spren are not bonded strongly enough to share an Identity with the Spren/Radiant, why is the plate keyed to the Radiants surges? 

15 minutes ago, recneps said:

My main issue with Crystalline Stormlight as Plate:

How does it auto-fit? How can something with no form of intelligence - just plain Investiture-Matter in a crystalline structure - shrink/expand to better fit a person, as it has been described to do?

Intent would be supplied by the wearer. Perception in action. 

[Gasper]

On 7/17/2018 at 9:44 AM, Rhapsody said:

Also we know that in the Cosmere matter (Shardplate) and investiture (stormlight) are virtually the same thing. So creating Shardplate/Radiant plate could be simply a matter of knowing the right transformation. I could see the spren helping here. Initializing the first time a Radiant manages to transform Stormlight to Plate so to speak. Also if plate was cristallized Stormlight it would also explain why it remains behind after the Radiants abandon it. I mean it is a physical thing why should it vanish.

I think this is a good guess, but Shardplate made of lesser spren seems more likely. I say this mainly because the lesser spren have less of a hold on the physical realm and thus could be forced back into the cognitive easier than a shardblade. Also, the fact that in their normal form, both shardplate and shardblades change shape to fit their Radiant seems to indicate that they have a mind that bonds to the radiant in question. That is why I think it is made of lesser spren. 

[Quantus]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus my issue with the "spren squire idea, whuc I've only seen once before. Is the identity one.

If the Spren are not bonded strongly enough to share an Identity with the Spren/Radiant, why is the plate keyed to the Radiants surges? 

Intent would be supplied by the wearer. Perception in action. 

You mean how an active radiant's surges can ignore the plate but another Radiant cannot?  I would chalk that up to the temporary nature of whatever it is that happens to Squires; they are clearly altered enough to get something from the bond, but not so deeply tied to it that the connection remains permanent or that their violating the Ideals would harm the primary spren the way it would for the Primary Radiant.  Granted I dont really understand the nature of Squires or the distinction here so Im mostly speaking to observed behavior.

 

EDIT: Also, does it have to be a maintained link to have keyed that identity in the Plate at the point of creation?  Given Medallions Id think that would not have to be a continuing effect.  To be clear I am picturing the process of these lesser spren turning to plate to be a little closer to Soulcasting a lesser object/spren than to what happens to the sapient-spren that enter's the Bond. So I see them getting keyed to their original Radiant spren because they are the original thing Investing in them, it would be an innate imprint just like with a Metalmind (meaning it would take extra steps to make an Unkeyed one, if thats even possible).

Edited July 24, 2018 by Quantus
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