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[OB] Cosmere's biggest threat


whattheHoid

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Ok, so this post will discuss Oathbringer, Mistborn, shards, and other things in general. I think this is the right place. I don't want to do anything wrong by omitting any spoilers, so please be patient. I am still figuring things out on this site. I can't get this out of my head, so you my fellow Seventeenth Sharders will have to listen to this verbal vomit. ;p  Anyways on to the meat of this topic here. As I am rereading Stormlight and the rest of cosmere stories in general, I have noticed as I am sure many others have as well that Odium is in fact the biggest threat to the Cosmere at large. So how to get rid of this threat? Odium needs to be splintered really good. I don't think that he should be restored and than combined with another shard. It would only be feasible if you combined all of the shards into one again, which I don't know if it is possible. I guess we might have a better idea how two opposing shards combined into one react in the next Mistborn series and we get inside Sazed's head. Is he still Harmony? Have the shards started to conflict with each other? This I feel is important, we need to know this. So how to deal with Odium. I feel there are some key players, Hoid, Kelsier, Jasnah, Shallan, Dalinar, the Ghostbloods, and perhaps the Ire.

Hoid needs someone to help him, as I have a sneaking suspicion that is Hoid's quest, stop Odium. He probably has many more secret plots and quests of his own, but I feel this is the main one. We see this in the letter he writes to presumably Frost. So who would Hoid get help from, as the Seventeenth Shard holds a policy of non-intervention, they are virtually useless unless they change their policies. They would be the ideal candidates as they have a wealth of cosmere knowledge at their fingertips. So, I believe that Hoid has to rely on the Rosharans, namely the newly refounded Knights Radiants. After all, Odium is stuck in the Rosharan system for now.  Hoid had mentioned Adonalsium briefly to Dalinar and he didn't understand what that meant. However, that doesn't mean he won't further investigate what that is. This is unlikely, but possible. So Jasnah or Shallan, if any were a candidate for Silverlight University, I feel it would be one or both of them. We don't know what Jasnah knows, she has a Herald now, so if she asks the right questions, she may find vital information not only about the Oathpact, but maybe what a shard is and how to splinter it. She also traveled with Hoid for a while after everyone thought that Jasnah was dead, who knows what they talked about. Again, with the right questions...

Shallan has basically become a Ghostblood at this point. We know there are world hoppers in the organization, so at some point she is bound to come across important cosmere information as well. I read a post on here about Kelsier being the leader of the Ghostbloods and I can't get it out of my head. We know that Kelsier met with Khriss and Nazh so he certainly knows more now that he has been 'alive' for a very long time. He also witnessed the almost destruction of the shard Preservation. He also held the shard Preservation for a time to give it to Vin, so he was bound to gain even more cosmic awareness while Ascended. He also witnessed the merging of the shards Ruin and Preservation as well. And he 'retrieved' that device from the Ire (what other devices do the Ire have?). Now I'm not saying that just because Kelsier saw all of this, he immediately understood how to destroy a shard or 'heal' it, but he has seen firsthand which is more than most people can say. So, going off the premise that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods, this whole stop Odium thing is right up his alley. He has a Radiant, Shallan, to help and Shallan has access to other Radiants, i.e. Kaladin, Dalinar, etc. If anyone can destroy a god, it's Kelsier. The Fused are definitely a threat, but if you somehow found a way to kill them tomorrow, you would still have Odium, who is absolutely at this point filled with divine hatred. It has consumed the shard and its vessel, Rayse. So, the Parshendi, who are rightfully angry at the humans, and the humans need to team up, unite against Odium.

So in conclusion, I feel that Odium is the biggest threat to the Cosmere at large, I could totally see him trying to turn the Cosmere at large into a dystopian future where everything an everyone looks bleak. We need people from all cosmere worlds to come together and help the Rosharans in this Final Desolation and splinter Odium, destroy Rayse's body once and for all. Only then can the Cosmere be relatively safe.

Edited by whattheHoid
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I would guess that Odium will be dealt with in the Stormlight Archive, which would mean that a new big bad is needed for the overarching Cosmere story (culminating with Mistborn 4).  My money's on Autonomy, as she's been increasing her power (via exploration of unknown Investiture) and creating numerous Avatars (Patji, etc.).  

P.s. If you want to discuss Oathbringer spoilers, you need to put [OB] in the title.  

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34 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

Do I put OB in the title, or the tags? I think I fixed it. And yes, Autonomy I can see being the next biggest threat.

You have to put it in the title, like this: [OB]. It can go at the front or the back, as long as it's in there.

On topic, I don't think Odium is the big bad of the Cosmere. I personally don't think there will be a big bad for the Cosmere, that the end sequence of the Cosmere focuses on conflicts between Shards and peoples, not necessarily everyone uniting against a common enemy.

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I doubt that Kelsier is the Ghostblood leader. It just feels wrong to me. And also, I doubt that the Ghostbloods are good guys. See Mraizes conversation with Shallan when they are at Ialais meeting with Adolin. He says something along the lines of wanting to have an even conflict between Odium and the KR, so that he can grab power.

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I do remember that convo, however is what Mraize wants representative of all Ghostbloods? Either way, Shallan is a member of both the Ghostbloods and KR. She has a perfect opportunity to infiltrate or play the organizations against each other. This could work in the KR favor, particularly if she gets Jasnah involved. 

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It's probably not safe to assume that Kelsier is still one with "good motivation". Sanderson has been stating so many times about him possibly being a villain and just got really lucky with Mistborn Trilogy since his "passion" was channeled in the right place at the right situation.

Besides Scadrial is in a particularly good hands now(they can't do any worse than a kind former keeper who is well suited for holding two shards and who infact sees himself as their official caretaker) so Kelsier isn't obliged to keep watching that place anymore. 

Then we also have Odium garnering hype from well everybody(fans, cosmere inworld haters(Hoid as an example lol), Sanderson) but i think he's just a temporary problem which Stormlight already seems to be solving. If i think about Starwars prequel trilogy equivalent then Odium is just a Count Dooku and well Autonomy(or somebody else) is the equivalent of Sidious.

It has to be either Autonomy or somebody else.

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I feel like his trajectory in Secret History was leading towards Kelsier repudiating some of his more troublesome traits and growing into a better person.

And even as he was in Final Empire, I don't feel like the Ghostbloods are his style.

Edited by CrazyRioter
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3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I feel like his trajectory in Secret History was leading towards Kelsier repudiating some of his more troublesome traits and growing into a better person.

I support this opinion. I don't think he will be put next villain, but I think it's possible, that he will play a big part in deciding who will ein in the end. And I'm not sure if he would choose the "right" side.

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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] Cosmere's biggest threat
3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@CrazyRioter @Sorana

If the last we knew of Kelsier had ended with SH, I'd agree. What hints we got of Kel in Era 2 seemingly destroy that notion for me though. 

I sincerely hope we get a Secret History 2 in the next few years. Kelsier is ambitious and proactive to the point where I doubt he could sit still on Scadrial silently for 300 odd years. He strongly implied a desire to explore the Cosmere in his conversation with Spook at the end of Secret History so I strongly believe that he has worldhopped.

One of the biggest dangers an author can face is bringing a character back from the dead, causing the story to lose a bit of tension. Brandon is fully aware of this and he planned Secret History as early as 2006 so I think Kelsier will play a very important role down the line. There's no better reason to bring back a character than that characters story not being finished.

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I doubt that Brandon would make Kelsier a bad guy.  I know that he's talked at length about how close Kelsier is to being a villain in most stories, and it could make sense from a purely character perspective.  However, Kelsier is one of, if not the, most popular character in all of Brandon's books.  Turning him into a villain would royally piss off a whole lot of fans, and so would not be great from a sales perspective.  It's like why almost all books/movies end on a happy note - that's what readers/viewers want.  

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16 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I doubt that Brandon would make Kelsier a bad guy.  I know that he's talked at length about how close Kelsier is to being a villain in most stories, and it could make sense from a purely character perspective.  However, Kelsier is one of, if not the, most popular character in all of Brandon's books.  Turning him into a villain would royally piss off a whole lot of fans, and so would not be great from a sales perspective.  It's like why almost all books/movies end on a happy note - that's what readers/viewers want.  

I don't think Kelsier becoming a villain would anger the majority of fans. Brandon values good storytelling over the feelings of groups within the fanbase. He would not compromise his storytelling to appease a group of fans.

Kelsier could very realistically become a villain in future books. Brandon does not like creating black and white evil characters so Kelsier could have self-serving goals which clash with a protagonist, causing him to be seen as a villain from their perspective. If you were to look at Hoid's actions and interactions in Secret History in isolation he comes across as villainous, when in reality we know he has a greater purpose that is likely benevolent.

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People are complicated, and Kelsier even more so. 

Conflicts do not necessarily mean one side are the "Bad Guys". 

Of course, Kelsier has issues, and just because the first Mistborn trilogy ended in victory, doesn't mean that his issues have gone away. 

It is suspected that Hoid is trying to reunite the Shards. Kelsier may be doing that, in a less ethical fashion, as well. 

It makes him a fascinating foil and reflection for Hoid. After all, if Hoid was willing to see Roshar burn, then what is wrong with a little murder or hemalurgy? What indeed! 

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Might be worth mentioning that Sanderson already pulled the "ally to enemy" trick one time from a somehow loved character which was Marsh. (he was apparently well-liked according to Sanderson's anotations) So he clearly has no problems making a popular character the face of the enemy.

Marsh acted more as an antagonist rather than a protagonist most of the series.

Also Sanderson's overall theme of good and bad being blurred by motivation, actions and situations has been a cosmere theme so it can happen.

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Ignoring what Kelsier may or may not be like in Era 2 (I don't think we've seen enough of him to make an accurate judgement), taking advantage of a conflict to increase power and influence seems pretty much right in Era 1 Kelsier's wheelhouse, so I don't think it's too far fetched for him to be the leader. I myself am not sure he will be, but of all the characters we have seen Kelsier is the one best suited to forming a behind-the-scenes worldhopping society with a Southern Scadrian in it. But there is no reason the Ghostblood leader could not be an entirely new character, so I'm very on the fence here.

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On 17/07/2018 at 10:15 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

Kelsier is one of, if not the, most popular character in all of Brandon's books.

Really?

IMO he was an alright character, but was only really in 1 book, and was kinda a dick when they reflect back on him in subsequent books.  Yeah, he's popular; but considering he's not even a main character for most of the series he's in,  I think it's a bit much to call him most popular.

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Im still hoping for prominent new hexadiety Shards to be revealed and solidify the various sides in the final conflict.  I tend to think Odium is the red-herring Baddy and going to be taken out part-way through, as an entry to the next power plateau when the Shards start to take center stage.  I'd actually be interested to see Autonomy be BOTH the Big Bad and the 11th hour savior.  Hell, I'd like to see all our cosmere heroes unite to become the next generation of Shard-bearers

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44 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

Really?

IMO he was an alright character, but was only really in 1 book, and was kinda a dick when they reflect back on him in subsequent books.  Yeah, he's popular; but considering he's not even a main character for most of the series he's in,  I think it's a bit much to call him most popular.

Kelsier plays a role in a number of stories, most of which are found in Arcanum Unbounded (a collection of Cosmere short stories and novellas).  

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On 7/17/2018 at 9:37 AM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Kelsier could very realistically become a villain in future books. Brandon does not like creating black and white evil characters so Kelsier could have self-serving goals which clash with a protagonist, causing him to be seen as a villain from their perspective. If you were to look at Hoid's actions and interactions in Secret History in isolation he comes across as villainous, when in reality we know he has a greater purpose that is likely benevolent.

It would be odd for Kelsier to be a villain after the events of SH. Kelsier held Preservation which will have permanently altered his personality. While the Southern Scadrians have an odd power structure he for sure saved them. Vin tells Kelsier at the end of SH that he has a lot to learn about love. This is exactly what Kelsier said to Vin about friendship and was the catalyst in altering Vin's personality for the better. It literaturely makes sense for this to be a motivating factor for Kelsier to change for the better.

I don't think Hoid is benevolent. This is the man that said he would let an entire world be destroyed to get his way. We saw how much Hoid enjoyed doing harm to Kelsier. We've seen that Hoid was perfectly willing to betray Shai and leave her to die. We know that Hoid and Rayse were friends. So far every shard seems to dislike Hoid. I don't think Hoid is a good man. I almost wonder if he could be the true Big Bad.

Edited by Fatikis
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14 hours ago, Fatikis said:

It would be odd for Kelsier to be a villain after the events of SH. Kelsier held Preservation which will have permanently altered his personality. While the Southern Scadrians have an odd power structure he for sure saved them. Vin tells Kelsier at the end of SH that he has a lot to learn about love. This is exactly what Kelsier said to Vin about friendship and was the catalyst in altering Vin's personality for the better. It literaturely makes sense for this to be a motivating factor for Kelsier to change for the better.

Holding Preservation doesn't automatically makes you good(we have Rashek as an example for that)None of the shards makes you good it still depends on you. 

Did Kelsier really learn his lesson of love ? Based on Secret History i don't think so, really think about how different Vin acts or Sazed does. In fact this time around the "right situation" is much harder to present itself that would make Kelsier a good guy. 

Wouldn't count it out that Kelsier won't turn out as a villain from the hints of brandon. And well the seemingly unsuccessful and incosistent thing that Secret History really didn't seem to change him.

Quote

I don't think Hoid is benevolent. This is the man that said he would let an entire world be destroyed to get his way. We saw how much Hoid enjoyed doing harm to Kelsier. We've seen that Hoid was perfectly willing to betray Shai and leave her to die. We know that Hoid and Rayse were friends. So far every shard seems to dislike Hoid. I don't think Hoid is a good man. I almost wonder if he could be the true Big Bad.

Hoid being the big bad is predictable as hell.

And his actions already scream good side even if his methods can be "the ends justify the means". We already have plenty of examples who has that thoughtprocess but still ended up as the ally(hint the shards with vessels who love humanity are all like that especially preservation)

21 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think Hoid is basically on the "Good Guys" side, but I agree that he's not all that nice of a person, though he does have a soft side which he shows with Shallan and that woman and girl from the epilogue.

Top pick for Cosmere big bad is Bavadin right now.

Either Bavadin or some other shard that hasn't been introduced(who might be playing everybody like a bloody fiddle). We are after all still early in the cosmere. Like there's a million more novel to go till we reach the middle-endgame.

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6 hours ago, goody153 said:

Holding Preservation doesn't automatically makes you good(we have Rashek as an example for that)None of the shards makes you good it still depends on you. 

Rashek held Preservation for a very small amount of time. He ascended as Preservation sure, but I don't think he held the power long enough for drastic changes. He also was pierced with metal. So he had constant corruption via Ruin. 

Hold Preservation does not make one good. Preservation isn't really good. As we saw Leras or at least Leras's shadow liked Rashek because he was consistent. As Ruin pointed out Preservation would be happy to have everything stay the same forever.

While we don't know for a fact that Kelsier held Preservation long enough to be changed, we do know he held the power significantly longer than Rashek. He also was kept alive by the Well of Ascension/Preservation's power for an extreme amount of time. 

6 hours ago, goody153 said:

Did Kelsier really learn his lesson of love ? Based on Secret History i don't think so, really think about how different Vin acts or Sazed does. In fact this time around the "right situation" is much harder to present itself that would make Kelsier a good guy. 

I'm unsure what you mean here. Vin told Kelsier the bit about love in the last few pages of the story. There wasn't really much time for Kelsier to develop past that. The only real events that took place were Kelsier's interactions with Spook.

6 hours ago, goody153 said:

Wouldn't count it out that Kelsier won't turn out as a villain from the hints of brandon. And well the seemingly unsuccessful and incosistent thing that Secret History really didn't seem to change him.

I would. I could see Kelsier as an antagonist. At this point I doubt Kelsier would be a villain. I don't see how SH didn't really change him. We saw an egotistical man at least slightly humbled. Not only did he realize that he knew nothing, he also realized he was a small fish. It also seems the very first thing Kelsier did after getting a body was save the people that Harmony nearly destroyed. I don't see anyway this can be twisted as being a villain. If anything the whole screwing the North and South are examples show Harmony as a villain.

6 hours ago, goody153 said:

Hoid being the big bad is predictable as hell.

Odd. I don't see anyone every mentioning this. There are tons of examples of Hoid's questionable morals, but everyone seems to assume that Hoid is the ultimate good guy. I honestly don't think there will be a full big bad, but I hope Hoid is close to it. A man attempting to subvert the wishes of basically the entire cosmere for his own questionable goals.

I don't think anyone is really the "Big Bad' of the cosmere. You have individuals all working towards their own goals for their own reasons. I think Autonomy is as close as we will get to a Big Bad.

Edited by Fatikis
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@Fatikis I think when considering Preservation's influence on Kelsier, you have you think about how he held the power in the first place.

He needed a bunch of extra Connection and didn't really have good control over the shard.  It's not clear that his use of the Connectionade orb would make the shard holding the same as someone who was naturally Connected; but it definitely implied that he would have needed to change a good amount from the shard he held.  Even with the ball of Connection he was barely able to take hold.

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