Darkeyed Shardbearers genetics?

[KalaDANG]

So, say hypothetically a Darkeyes was to take up a Shardblade, making their eyes light. If they got married and had kids, would their kids be lighteyed or darkeyed? This is assuming that the Shardbearer's genetics would decide eye color in their children rather than their spouse. The question is though, does the bond with the shardblade effect you genetically that way, allowing you to have lighteyed children rather than darkeyes? I know that you are automatically at least 4th or 3rd dahn or something if you're a shardbearer, and you can marry lighteyes. It just wouldn't make a lot of sense if the children were born darkeyed and unable to hold lands and have the same status. Help?

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by KalaDANG

[Weltall]

Yes, if you've become a lighteyes via bonding a Shardblade you can pass it on to your children because it's become part of your sDNA that you pass onto your descendants. Most (though apparently not all) of the lighteyed families got started this way, by the first generations after the Recreance who nabbed all the Shardblades.

In the case of children, it's a very interesting social phenomenon that Brandon has discussed but the upshot is that you can have a child with light eyes, dark eyes or heterochromia (one of each). You can read the WoB for lots of information on how children of 'mixed eye' couples are treated, as well as Vorin rank structures generally.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Weltall

[whattheHoid]

So in the Way of Kings, Dalinar has this book (way of Kings) read to him many times and he briefly mentions that darkeyes are higher than lighteyes or something to that affect. Why? Also did lighteyes originate from original Shardbearers? Surgebinders? Does the lighter the eye mean the "stronger" sDNA?

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

So in the Way of Kings, Dalinar has this book (way of Kings) read to him many times and he briefly mentions that darkeyes are higher than lighteyes or something to that affect. Why? Also did lighteyes originate from original Shardbearers? Surgebinders? Does the lighter the eye mean the "stronger" sDNA?

Dalinar is confronted with that line and thinks that Nohadon's intent was to remind his readers that a leader should serve those he leads, using the lighteyes/darkeyes distinction as part of the parable.

The possibility of natural mutations excepted, light eyes seemingly began with the Knights Radiant and part of the association between light eyes and leadership comes from a dim memory of the Radiants and the powers they had. Hoid indirectly thinks about this at the end of WoK when he recalls how Vorin culture decided that lighteyes should be the rulers and that it wasn't any more ridiculous than other methods he'd seen... and this one actually had a good reason behind it.

There is an apparent link between how light your eyes are and the strength of your Nahel Bond, as Kaladin's get progressively lighter as he progresses through his Ideals. That said, for anyone who's not a Surgebinder the relative lightness is an entirely cosmetic thing and there's no indication that it's treated at all differently culturally. You're considered either lighteyes or darkeyes (or you're heterochrome and things get trickier) and exactly what shade the eyes are is irrelevant.

[whattheHoid]

Interesting. I wonder why there is no physical evidence of your spiritual bond, like eye lightening on any other planet? I.e. Scadrial, Nalthis? I wonder why just Roshar? Is it in part because Roshar has stormlight? I know that the relationship between spren and humans in general are strong as Khriss makes a note of in her Ars Arcanum.

[Wandering Investor]

I'm not sure if the child of a deadshardblade wielder would inherit the eyes. I originally thought that WoB was referring to the actual raidants, but it could refer to current day shard wielders. But I do not think we've seen any in book to confirm one way or another. 

@whattheHoid I believe in the case of Roshar, the radiant's have a great deal more investiture moving through/warping their soul than is common on other worlds and that investiture in the form of stormlight is a lot more volatile and is stored in the body for awhile before use. On Scadrial, I think Preservation's investiture is channeled directly into the effect, and doesn't sit around in the body like stormlight. And on Nalthis, the investiture is mostly physical and not spiritual. And radiants have the bond with spren that futher warps them, and the other worlds do not. Sel does have the bond with the seon, but it seems a much lighter bond than with the spren.

[whattheHoid]

Do we know why Roshar is so strong in its Investitures? And spren bonds? I wonder if it plays/played an important role in the development of the Cosmere as a whole? I wonder what will happen say in Mistborn era 4 as I have a feeling they (Scadrian) are the Ones Above, so what will happen if they come to Roshar? Like why did Brandon make Roshar so strong and with 3 shards and not another planetary system? 

[Wandering Investor]

Roshar has a very fast circulation rate of its investiture. So its not that it just has more, which is does as there are two shards, now three there. Its also that large amounts of stormlight are thrown out into the planet by the highstorm, fade, return to the source, and then get thrown out again, at a rapid and large rate. I suspect that there is also just a large amount of native/unclaimed invesiture left by Adon in circulation on the planet

As for outsiders bonding spren, it is probably possible, but I think spren prefer locals. At least Felt(born on Scadrial) claimed the Nightwatcher wouldn't see him, and didn't like foreigners. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Wandering Investor

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

I'm not sure if the child of a deadshardblade wielder would inherit the eyes. I originally thought that WoB was referring to the actual raidants, but it could refer to current day shard wielders. But I do not think we've seen any in book to confirm one way or another. 

The fact that there are so many lighteyes now when the sample size (and social attitudes) we see in Dalinar's visions of the past show that there weren't any other than the Radiants he saw makes it fairly clear that the eye color change is inheritable from someone bonded to a dead Blade so long s they were still bonded to it at the time they had children. Those numbers certainly didn't come from the Radiants because most of them were apparently killed shortly after the Recreance.

We know that the color change is dependant on the type of spren that became that Blade and the entire plotline with Moash becoming the head of a new family once he receives the shards Kaladin passes onto him only makes sense if it's understood that his children would be lighteyes as well. There's also dialogue in WoK and OB where characters make it clear that they believe a darkeyes who becomes a lighteyes will pass on their newly light eyes to their descendants.

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I believe in the case of Roshar, the radiant's have a great deal more investiture moving through/warping their soul than is common on other worlds and that investiture in the form of stormlight is a lot more volatile and is stored in the body for awhile before use. On Scadrial, I think Preservation's investiture is channeled directly into the effect, and doesn't sit around in the body like stormlight. And on Nalthis, the investiture is mostly physical and not spiritual. And radiants have the bond with spren that futher warps them, and the other worlds do not. Sel does have the bond with the seon, but it seems a much lighter bond than with the spren.

Yeah, Rosharans in general are very highly Invested, not only in the way that Surgebinding works but in general because you've got the highstorm blowing through regularly which is loaded with Investiture. Brandon's even said this is why an outbreak of the common cold in the Purelake was so shocking; their Investiture makes them so healthy that any disease is a terrifying concept.

Sel does have the Elantrians whose changes due to Investiture are even more pronounced (so long as they're 'in range' at least) but setting them aside, Rosharans do seem to have more Investiture running through/around them on average, obviously setting aside extreme cases like the Well of Ascension and people with massive Breath stores. And the latter doesn't bond to the soul in the same way a Nahel Bond does.

1 hour ago, whattheHoid said:

Do we know why Roshar is so strong in its Investitures? And spren bonds? I wonder if it plays/played an important role in the development of the Cosmere as a whole? I wonder what will happen say in Mistborn era 4 as I have a feeling they (Scadrian) are the Ones Above, so what will happen if they come to Roshar? Like why did Brandon make Roshar so strong and with 3 shards and not another planetary system? 

Roshar is the way it is because Adonalsium apparently designed it that way for reasons that nobody in-universe can fathom (Frost believes there was a reason for the way he did things and not just Adonalsium having a cool idea for a star system on a slow day) and this includes the 'natural' spren bonds that allow things like greatshells to exist. The Nahel Bonds however were a new thing that came after the Shards arrived as the higher spren who form those bonds didn't exist until then and they mimicked what they'd seen Honor do.

We know there will be Rosharan worldhoppers in the future and there's either been trade or some form of diaspora by the time of Sixth of the Dusk because Brandon has said that the titular character has had Herdazian food (and hated it).

As for why Brandon the God Beyond made Roshar the way he did, I'm quite sure the only answer to that is: RAFO. But it probably has to do with being one of his three planned 'big stories' in the Cosmere along with Dragonsteel (where it all began) and Mistborn (the long-term one on the planet with a double-Shard). Having multiple Shards makes for all sorts of possible interactions, moreso than having just one. More possibilities makes for more storytelling options.

EDIT:

26 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I suspect that there is also just a large amount of native/unclaimed invesiture left by Adon in circulation on the planet

No such thing, I'm afraid.

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Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting.

source

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When people ask, "What shard is this investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all investiture ever predates the shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and investiture are one thing.

I always imagine investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To investiture, Adonalsium's shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

source

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Weltall

[whattheHoid]

Ahh thanks @Weltall and @Wandering Investor. This is all simultaneously helpful and not at the same time. It's not cause you didn't explain things clearly. It's trying to wrap my brain around god like beings and their nature. For me this is almost like trying to grasp just the concept of quantum physics. I'm a slow bird.

[Wandering Investor]

47 minutes ago, Weltall said:

No such thing, I'm afraid.

Except that there is. Investiture that is connected to a shard is not necessarily claimed by the shard. All 16 shards are woven through the fabric of every planet, star, and asteroid. But their finite minds can only control so much. So the investiture that is outside their control keeps on doing what it was doing. So referring to the Highstorm on Roshar or the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as residue from Adon in till it is claimed or meddled with by other shards is technically correct. Hence Brandon's last sentence, the shattering meant everything and nothing. Everything because the investiture was assigned and connected to one of the 16, but nothing because the 16 were not necessarily able to claim or even know of all the investiture.

27 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

Ahh thanks @Weltall and @Wandering Investor. This is all simultaneously helpful and not at the same time. It's not cause you didn't explain things clearly. It's trying to wrap my brain around god like beings and their nature. For me this is almost like trying to grasp just the concept of quantum physics. I'm a slow bird.

Don't worry, its not you, its Brandon and how complicated he made his stories. Which is part of why we love them of course. Brandon has compared the underlying principles of investiture to quantum mechanics, so it is valid to be confused, cause quantum mechanics is just plain confusing. And also, Brandon has a lot of notes we haven't seen, so a lot of our knowledge is based on what we can observe and is incomplete, which only makes everything more confusing.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Wandering Investor

[whattheHoid]

I had made it a goal to understand everything there is to know about the shards, the shattering, and the Cosmere by the time next Stormlight comes out. I'm beginning to realize this is an impossible task. But I'll give it my best!

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

Except that there is. Investiture that is connected to a shard is not necessarily claimed by the shard. All 16 shards are woven through the fabric of every planet, star, and asteroid. But their finite minds can only control so much. So the investiture that is outside their control keeps on doing what it was doing. So referring to the Highstorm on Roshar or the perpendicularity on First of the Sun as residue from Adon in till it is claimed or meddled with by other shards is technically correct.

The full WoB (that I didn't post because it's loooooong) has some more to say about this, using Autonomy as an example. The Investiture associated with Patji's Eye is 'Autonomy's Investiture' even before the Shard became aware of it, but once she discovered it and 'knew' that it was hers she was able to do things with it. Maybe we're both thinking the same thing and just not using the same words? Basically all I was trying to say is that there's no such thing as 'Adonalsium Investiture' any more in a strict sense; it's all associated with the Shards. But it may be doing its own thing completely independently of whatever Shard is associated with it.

So by extension, I'd agree that there's probably Investiture on Roshar that's not directly associated with any of the resident Shards (rotspren for example could be argued to be largely 'of Ruin') though it's not likely to be very much in the grand scheme of things.

57 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

I had made it a goal to understand everything there is to know about the shards, the shattering, and the Cosmere by the time next Stormlight comes out. I'm beginning to realize this is an impossible task. But I'll give it my best!

It's entirely doable, especially given that you've got a year or two to work with. Everyone started out knowing the same amount about all these topics (ie nothing) and it's become easier than ever to find out everything Brandon has said about them now that Arcanum exists. Thanks to it and Theoryland before it and participating in discussions with everyone here I keep learning of new Words of Brandon that I've either missed seeing or didn't grasp the significance of. If it's your goal, you'll be a full-fledged Cosmere guru before you know it. xD

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Maybe we're both thinking the same thing and just not using the same words? Basically all I was trying to say is that there's no such thing as 'Adonalsium Investiture' any more in a strict sense

This is correct. When I say Adon's investiture, I'm referring to uncontrolled/unclaimed investiture. So it is still autonomy's investiture, but it falls outside her pool of control/awareness. The whole, the shard is infinite, but the mind is not. So if Autonomy is equal to 1, but can only control 0.3, then her other 0.7 is what I'm referring to as residual adon investiture, in till Autonomy comes for it. For instance, the planet of First of the Sun existed before the Shattering. One of the shards, and I presume all 16 have investiture on this planet, since physical matter is just another form of investiture. No shard is in attendance though, and Brandon has stated that the things that exist on the planet would exist without shardic intervention. So the stable perpendicularity that exist on the planet would have been that way without shardic intervention, so there is investiture outside the control of the shards that makes up the perpendicularity. Autonomy has since meddled, so I'm not sure what is hers and what isn't. Same for the Highstorm. The investiture in the highstorm belonged to at least one and maybe more of the shards, and it kept doing what Adon designed it to do, in til Honor meddled and made it primarily his. 

TL:DR Shard's can only control a portion of their investiture, the part outside their control is what I'm referring to as Adon's investiture even though it strictly isn't, since it keeps doing what Adon instructed in till told otherwise by the new owner.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Wandering Investor

[StrikerEZ]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

This is correct. When I say Adon's investiture, I'm referring to uncontrolled/unclaimed investiture. So it is still autonomy's investiture, but it falls outside her pool of control/awareness. The whole, the shard is infinite, but the mind is not. So if Autonomy is equal to 1, but can only control 0.3, then her other 0.7 is what I'm referring to as residual adon investiture, in till Autonomy comes for it. For instance, the planet of First of the Sun existed before the Shattering. One of the shards, and I presume all 16 have investiture on this planet, since physical matter is just another form of investiture. No shard is in attendance though, and Brandon has stated that the things that exist on the planet would exist without shardic intervention. So the stable perpendicularity that exist on the planet would have been that way without shardic intervention, so there is investiture outside the control of the shards that makes up the perpendicularity. Autonomy has since meddled, so I'm not sure what is hers and what isn't. Same for the Highstorm. The investiture in the highstorm belonged to at least one and maybe more of the shards, and it kept doing what Adon designed it to do, in til Honor meddled and made it primarily his. 

TL:DR Shard's can only control a portion of their investiture, the part outside their control is what I'm referring to as Adon's investiture even though it strictly isn't, since it keeps doing what Adon instructed in till told otherwise by the new owner.

Well, I think this is primarily a semantics thing. You and @Weltall are saying the same thing, but s/he is saying it more accurately. Like, even though that Investiture is currently not under Autonomy's control, it's still her Investiture. To say that it's Adonalsium's Investiture means nothing; all Investiture is Adonalsium's Investiture is all the Investiture there is (that we're aware of, at least). For the type of Investiture you're talking about, I think it'd be more accurate to call it unclaimed Investiture. Adonalsium's Investiture means nothing; it's like saying the sky is made of air.