23 posts in this topic

Aight so essentially I’m wondering if you could influence Fortune with the metallic arts based on a couple WOBs I’ve found (please keep in mind this is my first foray into the Arcanum)

Questioner[PENDING REVIEW]

In terms of discussing Identity, I know that in Emperor's Soul,they talk about Identity, and the Parshendi talk about losing their identity, and then I was just rereading Bands of Mourning, and one of the kandra talks about how the spikes are their Identity. Are all of those things connected somehow or are they different forms of Identity?

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

They are connected, although the Parshendi losing their identity is a little more metaphorical. But yeah, the idea of these things is Identity is an innate attribute in the cosmere that is related to your soul, your spirit, and it is one of the things that Hemalurgy can fiddle with and Feruchemy can fiddle with. It's kind of important to how the Metallurgic Arts play out, but it's important to all the magics.

Identity is involved in why you can't use another person's metalminds, right, that kind of thing. And those are all related. The Parshendi is more metaphorical. 

 

 

 

So here I noticed how Sanderson talked about Identity as an “innate attribute” and how it could be influenced using hemalurgy or Feruchemy, and it somewhat reminded me of how he spoke of Fortune in the following WOB, how he talks about it as a “property”

 

 

 

Chaos[PENDING REVIEW]

Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way?

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

So, that line is mostly just me saying... [long pause] I think you're picking apart those things too much.

Chaos[PENDING REVIEW]

Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know... Gotta take that seriously, so.

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as... Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text.

Chaos[PENDING REVIEW]

That there are those are two different things.

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune.

 

so would it be possible to spike yourself foresight, or store it somehow in a metalmind? Would love to know if I’m entirely off-base here.

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Posted (edited)

Manipulating Fortune is what F-Chromium does. We're not quite sure how it works in practice but we know that it influences Fortune.

'Foresight' in the general sense of being able to anticipate the future based on experience and probability is not a stealable trait (it would be something more general like the Blessing of Presence granting increased mental ability) but if you found another method of accessing the Spiritual Realm or using Fortune, you could theoretically spike that. For example, A-Atium lets you see the future and you could spike the ability to burn that.

That aside, most methods we're currently aware of that grant future-sight aren't things that can be stolen via hemalurgy. The way the Returned see the future can't be stolen with a spike and Renarin's ability can't be stolen because you can't steal a Nahel Bond in that way. However, anyone with enough Investiture can use Fortune even if they aren't consciously trying to do so. OB Spoiler

Spoiler

Kaladin is able to see a glimpse of the future in both Riino's sphere and a painting from Nalthis (despite those being meant for Returned) because as a Surgebinder he's highly Invested

So, anything you can steal hemalurgically that makes you highly Invested could give you a way of manipulating Fortune, though the examples we've seen of this also require an external factor. There are undoubtedly other methods of future-sight that would be easier to steal with hemalurgy, we just don't know them yet. Well actually, we do know that Hoid has a way to manipulate Fortune and it's theoretically possible to spike things out of him so it's possible you could steal that if you know exactly what you're doing, but it might have weird results.

Edited by Weltall
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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, Weltall said:

you can't steal a Nahel Bond in that way

I think there is a wob that says you can steal a Nahel bond with Hemalurgy. You would just need to spike both the Radiant and the spren.

I'm going hunting for it in a moment and will edit it in if I find it =)

OB spoiler

Spoiler

you say Kaladin could see a glimpse of the future because he is a surgebinder and therefore highly invested. Is there a wob confirming this?

Edit found the wob

Quote

Jack Eaton

Can hemalurgy steal a nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books

and another one on the topic. Emphasis mine.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

 

Edited by Rhapsody
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3 minutes ago, Rhapsody said:

I think there is a wob that says you can steal a Nahel bond with Hemalurgy. You would just need to spike both the Radiant and the spren.

I'm going hunting for it in a moment and will edit it in if I find it =)

OB spoiler

  Hide contents

you say Kaladin could see a glimpse of the future because he is a surgebinder and therefore highly invested. Is there a wob confirming this?

 

There's is a WoB that says tat, I know which one you're talking about. It also says that it would be really hard, and might not even work. Or if it does, the spren could break the bond.

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Just now, StrikerEZ said:

There's is a WoB that says tat, I know which one you're talking about. It also says that it would be really hard, and might not even work. Or if it does, the spren could break the bond.

That was not the wob that I was talking about. But I know that one to. I edited the one I meant in above actually.

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Posted (edited)

Brandon had this to say about trying to spike a Nahel Bond.

Quote

learhpa [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

If someone were to try to steal a Nahel bond via a hemalurgic spike, would it kill the spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

RAFO.  It wouldn't end well.

Footnote: This question was also asked here, here, and here.
source

 

9 minutes ago, Rhapsody said:

Is there a wob confirming this?

Don't need one, it's right there in the text. OB Spoiler

Spoiler

You’ll ruin it, or…” He trailed off, then took Kaladin’s head, turning it toward him. “You saw something!”

Kaladin nodded weakly.

“How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?”

 

Edited by Weltall
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1 minute ago, Weltall said:

Don't need one, it's right there in the text

I'm sorry I read OB but I can't remember anywhere that said specifically that it was because of the reason you implied.

OB spoilers

Spoiler

If you mean because the selish lighthouse keeper immediatly assumes he is holding investiture that could also mean that his orb can only be used by someone who holds investiture. It doesn't necessarily mean that the future sight itself depended upon it.

At least that is my opinion. Please tell me if I have overlooked something.

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It's a distinction without a difference, that form of future-sight requires Investiture to use, ergo anyone with Investiture can use it. Abd the second example is an entirely passive one and also clearly does not care what form of Investiture you have, just that you have enough of it.

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2 minutes ago, Rhapsody said:

I'm sorry I read OB but I can't remember anywhere that said specifically that it was because of the reason you implied.

OB spoilers

  Hide contents

If you mean because the selish lighthouse keeper immediatly assumes he is holding investiture that could also mean that his orb can only be used by someone who holds investiture. It doesn't necessarily mean that the future sight itself depended upon it.

At least that is my opinion. Please tell me if I have overlooked something.

Spoiler

I think that's exactly what he was trying to say. Holding Investiture lets you see the same things Returned see when they look at those paintings. I'm gonna go find a WoB that talks about those paintings real quick.

 

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@StrikerEZ

Spoiler

but as far as I know Kaladin wasn't holding stormlight at that moment. Therefore he shouldn't have as much investiture as a returned and additionally the divine breath of a returned is different from normal investiture. Normal awakeners don't see visions of the future even if they reach the 5th heightening or above. In the book it is thought that the Returned see a part of the future when they die and even though they forget upon their returen they can remember part of it through dreams and really inspired paintings.

OB and Warbreaker spoiler

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Posted (edited)

Here's one that talks about that specific Oathbringer scene.

Spoiler
Quote

BlackYeti [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

In Oathbringer, Kaladin sees a painting from the Court of Gods which, it is claimed, shows something different to every person who sees it. However, as I understand it, the Returned only see things in the paintings because of their Divine Breath, there isn't anything intrinsically magical about the paintings themselves; what then is going on with this painting?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

He was very evasive here, ultimately he only said that not everything that you see is in the painting.

source

In other words, Kaladin saw something via the painting that was not just him reading into a piece of abstract art. And we know from the Warbreaker annotations that it's Investiture that makes this possible rather than the Divine Breah specifically, since he said that having a lot of Breath will do it. It's just that we never see this happen to anyone who's not a Returned because the paintings are (almost) always destroyed and thus never seen by anyone outside the Court of Gods.

Returned see the future in two different ways. Seeing things in art depends on having a lot of Investiture in general while their dreams are unique to them via the process of becoming a Returned giving them a peek into the Spiritual Realm.

Edited by Weltall
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1 minute ago, Rhapsody said:

@StrikerEZ

  Hide contents

but as far as I know Kaladin wasn't holding stormlight at that moment. Therefore he shouldn't have as much investiture as a returned and additionally the divine breath of a returned is different from normal investiture. Normal awakeners don't see visions of the future even if they reach the 5th heightening or above. In the book it is thought that the Returned see a part of the future when they die and even though they forget upon their returen they can remember part of it through dreams and really inspired paintings.

OB and Warbreaker spoiler

I think these two WoBs will help you.

Quote

Gordon

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

Jared

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle

This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities.

Spoiler

What Kaladin is doing is basically what is happening with the Returned and the court of the gods. Invested people can kind of see that tones stuff Brandon mentioned.

OB SPOILERS^^^

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Posted (edited)

ok but based on the wob above and the one quoted below ist there is no real indication that someone with a lot of breath could also use this future sight. In fact Brandon himself says

Quote

Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong

which seems to imply that one would need both many breaths and be returned.

This is what is implied in warbreaker, too.

 

And this still doesn't answer the question how

Spoiler

Kaladin could do it, since at that moment he didn't hold any stormlight

@StrikerEZthose are exactly the WOBs I remember, but I still see no indication to why a person with just investiture and without the divine breath could do that.

Edited by Rhapsody
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Posted (edited)

Kaladin is a Surgebinder which means that he has a chunk of sapient Investiture permanently bonded to his soul. He doesn't need to be currently holding Stormlight to be Invested.

Also, given what we saw in Oathbringer, I'm not sure why you're so dead set on arguing against the nature of it. The probability of 'Someone with Investiture being able to access Fortune through an intermediary' is exactly 100% because we have seen it happen.

More OB spoilers

Spoiler

Riino asks what Heightening Kaladin is at first, which implies that there's a threshold for how Invested you need to be for that form of Fortune-manipulation to work... and directly against your argument, it outright states that someone who 'only' has a lot of Breath can use the orb. Returned-ness is not required.

 

Edited by Weltall
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@Weltall I agree

more OB and Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

that the orb only needs an amount of investiture to function. I'm still not convinced Kaladins level of investiture is enough since he is simply bonded to investiture which at that moment for one isn't in his proximity and secondly has her own body and sapience. It is not as if Kaladin could use the investiture that is Syl. But for the sake of the argument lets say he has enough investiture for the orb. That doesn't explain the painting! The Painting presumably comes from the Court of Gods and Brandon expicitly says that the Pictures Lightsong sees in those paintings are only because he is Returned. In both WOBs above and the annotations being Returned is mentioned as a requirement for seeing things in the painting and Brandon even implies in the annotations that it isn't really the future a Returned sees but more a reflection of the soul of the artist (cue the above quote from the annotations by @StrikerEZ)

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm puzzled by the fact that you accept the idea of a simple Investiture threshold for one instance but are dead set against it being applicable to the other.

Regarding proximity, the Investiture that is a spren is a part of Kaladin whether Syl is physically anywhere near Kaladin or not. Said Investiture when fully manifested in the Physical Realm as a Shardblade is considered heavily Invested. See here and here. Rosharans are also generally heavily Invested people, see here and here.

OB Spoiler

Spoiler

Shallan can Lightweave (on Syl, even) and Kaladin can use Lashings in the Cognitive Realm even when their spren are currently manifested in their own 'natural' bodies. In other words, the Investiture that's filling the cracks in their respective spiritwebs is still there and doing its thing by allowing them to use their powers. To forestall a possible objection, that said powers are using another source of Investiture (Stormlight) is irrelevant, that they can use their powers at all means that the Investiture that's part of their soul is still there and doing its thing.

You're arguing uphill against something that we have seen happen based on a single ambiguous Word of Brandon that was not intended to discuss cross-Cosmere applications of that specific method of divination

Yet more OB spoilers:

Spoiler

We know that it's not just Kaladin because the spren that's running the shop where he sees the painting mentions that other people see things (and different things) in it. Guess who most of those customers are likely to be? Other higher spren, ie beings of a similar level of Investiture to Syl or the combination of Kaladin+Syl.

Do you have any plausible explanation for what we saw happen other than what @StrikerEZ and I have been saying, or are you just going to keep saying 'Nuh-Uh!' over and over?

Edited by Weltall
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Maybe it'd be a good idea to mark this thread as [OB] so that we can talk without the spoiler tags? I also agree with Weltall and StrikerEZ, btw.

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16 hours ago, Weltall said:

I'm puzzled by the fact that you accept the idea of a simple Investiture threshold for one instance but are dead set against it being applicable to the other

That is because in my opinion the orb could be an artifact designed or at leat usable in the way you describe. Therefore a threshhold of investiture is enough to use it since that was intended to be so. I can get your theory on this and even agree that it is the most likely explanation. 

On the other hand most threads I've read and all information I am aware of agrees that the painting Kaladin sees is a painting from the court of gods that somehow wasn't burned. Brandon itself explains in his annotations to Warbreaker and the two Wobs already quoted above that to see something in them one needs to be returned. At least that is how I read the paragraphs.

So my distinguishing between the two instances is actually based on the (assumed) knowledge we have of the origins and mechanics at work with the painting and the profund lack of factual information in the other.

16 hours ago, Weltall said:

Do you have any plausible explanation for what we saw happen other than what @StrikerEZ and I have been saying, or are you just going to keep saying 'Nuh-Uh!' over and over?

No I do not in fact have an explanation for this. That doesn't mean I have to agree with yours and I believe I have tried numerous times above to explain why. I believe our differences stem in the opinion we each have to how the two instances in OB relate to each other. And since I have tried more than once to explain my point of view and even have agreed myself on some of your points and acnowledhe their plausibility I think it is inaccurate to say I'm simply saying 'Nuh-Uh' as you put it. To say it directly I think it is rude of you to imply that or at least say it like that.

Furthermore I disagree with you that you can compare the levels of investiture a radiant and a returned posses. A Returned posseses a splinter of a shard while a radiant is 'only' bonded to one. Since investiture is another state in the energy/mass equation that means it followes similar physics (if we don't assume that until we're contradicted by brandon we could theorize nothing about it). That means it can't be in two places at once. So Syls investiture csn't be at the same time her body/being and suffusing Kals spirit web. she can have a part of her investiture filling the cracks but not all of it. which if we assume all splinters have similar amounts of investiture means Kal has less than a Returned (as long as he doesn't ingest stormlight).

But the last bit is actually relativly irrelevant to my argument. which is contained in the first paragraph.

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Syl's spirit web is fusing with Kaladin's sporitweb, so Syl's investiture in the spirit realm is mix in with Kaladin's investiture. The investiture that makes up Syl's form is not investing Kaladin.

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@MountainKingyes that is a better way to describe it. But I still think either way doesn't change the argument.

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This is somewhat hard to wrap your head around at first, but Kaladin is more invested because of the bond. 

It's not just that they are connected. In many ways their souls are merging. This is why Syl is able to become the type of weapon that Kaladin wants, even though their separate Cognitive aspects don't allow her to read his mind. 

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

source

This is why, in my opinion though it hasn't been explicitly stated, Syl can only become a Shardblade while in physical contact with Kaladin. She has to be pulled fully into the physical through him.

The Spiritual realm has no location dependence. Wherever Syl is in relation to Kaladin is irrelevant. Their souls are connected, and her investiture, Spiritually, is a part of him. 

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Posted (edited)

Hmm. Ok I'm not 100% sold on the point but I can see what you mean. 

That makes it more difficult to compare the levels of investiture between Kaldin and a Returned. So I will concede on that part of the argument. :) 

But as stated above I think it doesn't really matter that much since in the case of the painting (if we argue under the assumption that it is a painting from the court of gods operating after the rules established in Warbreaker and not something else entirely) it still doesn't change the fact that he would need to be returned to normally see something in it. In warbreaker it is stated that only Returned can see the future not another awakener even if he has enough breath to reach or exceed the 5th heightening.

Since I do not think that normally having enough investiture is enough I believe there are several possibilities why Kaladin sees something in the painting.

1. because he is in the CR it is easier to connect to the soul of the artist (that is the mechanism explained in Warbreaker for why Returned see things in the paintings). Though that raises the question why that said artist would paint such a scene and if he had future sight

2. it isn't a normal painting from the court of gods. Perhaps it was painted by one of the gods instead of sent to them for appraisal which would somehow explain its property of showing the future to people with enough investiture to connect to it.

3. it is something else entirely. Then the assumption that the rules from warbreaker hold for that painting is nullified and my argument falls apart.

4. it is Kaldins fear for what happens in the PR that let's him see something. With abstract paintings it is often that two people see different things in the same painting painting based on their respective mood. Could be though I doubt it. It is not Brandons style.

there are probably other possibilities but those are the ones  I came up with on the spot.

OB spoilers

Edited by Rhapsody
added spoiler
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3 hours ago, Rhapsody said:

<Your post>

As this topic hasn't yet been given an [OB] flag for the title, you're gonna have to spoil-tag that stuff. OB

Spoiler

We know for a fact that Kaladin sees things in that painting and Brandon has confirmed that there's more at work than just him interpreting what he wants to see in a bit of abstract art. We know for a fact that other people also see things when they look at those paintings, it's right there in the text as well. Clearly you do not need to be a Returned in order to access the form of divination that the paintings represent and it's also not something unique to Kaladin. What's the one constant that Kaladin and the spren who patronize that shop have in common? Investiture.

This also applies to your attempt to compare Kaladin's level of Investiture to a Returned. It does not matter. Kaladin and spren are able to see things in the painting. Ergo, they all have whatever it takes.

If you go back to that Word of Brandon, when he talks about Lightsong being able to see things in the painting because he has a touch of the divine in him, what is that but Investiture? Lightsong just has it in a different form. Also, if you're so fixated on that one you should remember that Lightsong does not have 'many Breaths', he has exactly one which he occasionally feeds another to. It just happens that the one Breath he has represents a larger chunk of... Investiture. But any sufficient quantity should work, hence the 'many Breaths' thing. We also know that more Breaths means more influence from Endowment which means that non-Returned can become closer to her (and thus have more of that 'touch of the divine') if they accumulate more Breath:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

About how many Breaths do you need to become Invested enough to be influenced by Endowment's intent?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

On the small scale, not very many... One could argue that even someone with one is influenced a little bit. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Significantly influenced?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. But the more you get the more likely that is.

source

 

And yet more spoiler tags because of Oathbringer.

Spoiler
39 minutes ago, Rhapsody said:

In warbreaker it is stated that only Returned can see the future not another awakener even if he has enough breath to reach or exceed the 5th heightening.

Have you got a source for this? Because I can't find one and at no point in the books do we see anyone with a large Breath store looking at the paintings other than a Returned, so we don't have evidence that someone at the Fifth Heightening or higher can't see anything. It's even pointed out there that paintings are either burned or go into the private collection of the Returned and are only seen by them, the artist and a few priests.

Quote

1. because he is in the CR it is easier to connect to the soul of the artist (that is the mechanism explained in Warbreaker for why Returned see things in the paintings). Though that raises the question why that said artist would paint such a scene and if he had future sight

2. it isn't a normal painting from the court of gods. Perhaps it was painted by one of the gods instead of sent to them for appraisal which would somehow explain its property of showing the future to people with enough investiture to connect to it.

3. it is something else entirely. Then the assumption that the rules from warbreaker hold for that painting is nullified and my argument falls apart.

4. it is Kaldins fear for what happens in the PR that let's him see something. With abstract paintings it is often that two people see different things in the same painting painting based on their respective mood. Could be though I doubt it. It is not Brandons style.

1. Souls are Spiritual, location (which includes the Cognitive Realm) is irrelevant. Seeing the future (and the past) is a Spiritual thing. We can argue about exactly how the prophetic paintings work, but being in the Cognitive shouldn't be a factor at all.

2. This explanation requires you to ignore the patently obvious, that there is nothing inherently special about Returned and it's simply Investiture that matters. Again, Brandon's 'many Breaths' comment. Also, we have an artist's name (Nenefra) which does not fit the namit scheme of the Returned. The simplest explanation is to take the painting at face value.

3. Or the rules for the painting in Warbreaker do hold and you're being too narrow-minded in assuming that what we saw in that context is the only way that the paintings can work. By way of example, I give you A-Bronze. In Mistborn and in Khriss' Ars Arcanum entries we're told that it detects allomantic pulses. However, we know for a fact that it actually detects all kinds of kinetic Investiture, but of course nobody on Scadrial knows that so they don't talk about it, and Brandon didn't mention it until someone thought to ask him. Point is, trying to determine how something works by looking at it in isolation from wider Cosmere potential is too narrow..

4. Agreed, especially as Brandon's said that there's something at work in that scene.

 

 

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