Kelsier taking up Odium?

[JekyllLantern97]

So I was just reading Mistborn:SH and we know that Kelsier is in the cognitive realm and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We also know that Hoid dislikes Kelsier because he's similar to Rayse. And we also know that Kelsier wanted to learn more about the Cosmere at the end of SH.  I know this might be a little early for theorizing, but does anyone think it likely, or even possible, that in the future Kelsier could become a shard? Kelsier has already had plans about killing a "god" in the first Mistborn, so that sounds like something he would plan. Since he's similar to Rayse, I feel like it makes sense, that at some point, he might take up Odium's mantel. I know this is kind of a long shot theory, but it just made sense to me. Thoughts?

 

[+ILuvHats]

I don’t want to spoil anything for you, but make sure to read Mistborn Era 2, especially Bands of Mourning (there’s a little more info about Kelsier in it hint hint).  Your first line makes me think you haven’t read it yet.  If you HAVE read the book, then here’s my explanation for why I think it’s improbable that Kelsier will take up a Shard.

Spoiler

I doubt there will be any shards available any time soon to grab on Scadrial, and even if a Vessel dies near Scadrial, the Shard would have to be compatible with Kelsier.  Basically, if becoming a vessel were a goal of Kelsier’s, he would need to world hop to do it.  Now, in order to leave Scadrial, Kelsier needs his body.  But, to take up a Shard, you can’t have extra investiture hanging around in your body like, say, a hemalurgic spike.  We don’t know exactly how Kelsier’s body works, but removing his spike(s) will probably destroy his body, or at least stop keeping his cognitive shadow from being attached to it. Now, if he worldhopped and THEN removed his spike(s) and exited his body, we enter the realm of weirdness where we don’t know how it works.  Maybe the cognitive shadow would stick.  Maybe it would get pulled back to Scadrial because all that investiture from Preservation that originally made it difficult to exit Scadrial is still a part of the cognitive shadow, and is attracted to its point of origin without a body to contain it.  We don’t know (or at least I don’t know because I haven’t seen a WoB about it).  I’m in favor of the latter, which is why I don’t think Kelsier could become a Vessel.  But maybe it’s possible.

Also, I’m curious how you made the connection that Hoid hates Kelsier because he is similar to Rayse.  I was under the impression that we don’t know why Hoid and Kelsier don’t get long, because Brandon’s answered any questions about it with a RAFO.

By the way.  Hi!  Welcome to the 17th Shard.  Have a cookie.

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by ILuvHats

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

3 hours ago, JekyllLantern97 said:

We also know that Hoid dislikes Kelsier because he's similar to Rayse.

Really? I've never seen a WoB on this and Kelsier is my favourite character so I'd appreciate if you or someone else could link this.

3 hours ago, JekyllLantern97 said:

but does anyone think it likely, or even possible, that in the future Kelsier could become a shard?

I think there's a decent chance of this happening. At the end of Secret History, Kelsier expresses a desire to explore the Cosmere and gain Cosmeric knowledge. He ascended briefly and is aware of the intrinsic knowledge that Ascension provides so it would not be surprising to see him pursue a Shard or for a shard with no vessel to pursue him due to his very strong ideals. 

The shard of Odium is an incredibly long shot imo, as Odium is most likely going to be dealt with by the Rosharan characters. Kelsier swooping into the Stormlight Archive series and killing Odium would be uncharacteristic writing from Brandon as he wants to keep the roles of crossover characters smaller in the overarching narrative.

I think that after having held the Shard of Preservation and sharing those meaningful conversations with a dying Leras and Vin will have made an impact on Kelsier as a character for the better. Pre Secret History Kelsier could definitely be described as 'hateful' or 'passionate' but this hatred has probably been put on a simmer after Kelsier's conceptions about his very existence was turned upside down. There are probably several shards other than Odium that are both more realistically attainable and complementary to Kelsier's personality.

 

[RShara]

I think Kelsier, as a Cognitive Shadow, would have a very hard time leaving Scadrian space. And Kelsier with a Shard would be particularly frightening, given his...tendencies. And Kelsier holding Odium would be truly truly terrible.

Hoid and Kelsier dislike each other because of their interaction at the Well.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

19 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think Kelsier, as a Cognitive Shadow, would have a very hard time leaving Scadrian space. And Kelsier with a Shard would be particularly frightening, given his...tendencies. And Kelsier holding Odium would be truly truly terrible.

Hoid and Kelsier dislike each other because of their interaction at the Well.

I think it's likely that Kelsier has left Scadrial at some point in betwen Secret History and Mistborn 2. I'm largely basing this on Sazed and Wax's conversation where Sazed regrets that he no longer communicates with Kelsier. Kelsier and Sazed would no longer be able to communicate if Kelsier went off world. Also, it would be unlike Kelsier to lounge about in Scadrial for 300 years when there is an entire Cosmere he wishes to explore. Kelsier's will is probably stronger than the Cosmere laws which dictate that he should not be able to leave Scadrial  

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I think it's likely that Kelsier has left Scadrial at some point in betwen Secret History and Mistborn 2. I'm largely basing this on Sazed and Wax's conversation where Sazed regrets that he no longer communicates with Kelsier. Kelsier and Sazed would no longer be able to communicate if Kelsier went off world. Also, it would be unlike Kelsier to lounge about in Scadrial for 300 years when there is an entire Cosmere he wishes to explore. Kelsier's will is probably stronger than the Cosmere laws which dictate that he should not be able to leave Scadrial  

I'm pretty sure Sazed could communicate with Kelsier anywhere, since it's his investiture keeping Kelsier "alive" so to speak. Actually, Kelsier's spiked, so Sazed definitely could communicate with him anywhere. I think he and Kelsier had a disagreement, and that's why they're not speaking. I think that Kelsier is around and active on Scadrial, meddling and dabbling and planning something big, as he usually does.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm pretty sure Sazed could communicate with Kelsier anywhere, since it's his investiture keeping Kelsier "alive" so to speak. Actually, Kelsier's spiked, so Sazed definitely could communicate with him anywhere. I think he and Kelsier had a disagreement, and that's why they're not speaking. I think that Kelsier is around and active on Scadrial, meddling and dabbling and planning something big, as he usually does.

I'd be interested to see if the hemallurgic spike grants an infinite communication range or if the range is excluded to the world in which the Shard is invested. This is also important to know as there are kandra worldhopper(s) on Roshar and we don't know if they are in communication with Sazed. My impression from Secret History was that Preservation was unable to communicate with Kelsier once he went off world. Given that humans on Scadrial have a tiny bit of preservation in them, similar to a spiked individual having a little bit of ruin in them, it would not be unreasonable to assume that a spiked individual has a similarly limited communication range. This is something that I would be keen to ask Brandon about if he ever comes to Oz.

[RShara]

The Shards exist in the Spiritual Realm, that's why Allomancy and Hemalurgy work anywhere, with any type of metal. So it wouldn't make sense for the communication to be limited to the planet that the Shard is invested on. As long as the Shard knows that a bit of their investiture is in x place, they should be able to interface with it.

[Weltall]

Sazed doesn't even need to be consciously aware that someone with access to his Investiture is somewhere for it to work. Case in point: Hoid using allomancy on Roshar. Still works just fine even without him needing a spike to tell Sazed 'Find Me Here'. There's no reason to assume that Sazed's ability to communicate with spikees works differently in terms of the Spiritual Realm not being location-dependant.

Of course, for Kelsier specifically he has a spike so Sazed should always have at least a general idea where he is anyhow.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Weltall

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

Sazed doesn't even need to be consciously aware that someone with access to his Investiture is somewhere for it to work

No, but that does not mean he can talk to someone with a spike if he doesn't know where they are. There's a major difference between those two things.

[Weltall]

7 hours ago, Leyrann said:

No, but that does not mean he can talk to someone with a spike if he doesn't know where they are. There's a major difference between those two things.

Evidence suggests otherwise. He doesn't know where Paalm is throughout Shadows of Self but he's able to communicate with her, she's just not responding.

Quote

“Cognition,” Wax said. “Two spikes are required for the kandra to be able to think. But she is going around with only one. Which means…?”

Insanity, Harmony said, His voice softer in Wax’s ear. But something is wrong beyond that. She can hide from me, and while I can speak to her, she doesn’t have to listen—and I can’t keep track of where she is.

 

[Gasper]

Correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't Kelsier burn the spikes to graft them permanently into his spiritweb. That might allow him to do more stuff and not have the threat of spike removal.

[RShara]

5 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't Kelsier burn the spikes to graft them permanently into his spiritweb. That might allow him to do more stuff and not have the threat of spike removal.

Burning the spikes would have a really funky effect that we don't know. It wouldn't permanently graft anything onto his spiritweb, though. The only element that does that is lerasium, as far as we know.

 

Quote

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

source

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

12 hours ago, Weltall said:

“Cognition,” Wax said. “Two spikes are required for the kandra to be able to think. But she is going around with only one. Which means…?”

Insanity, Harmony said, His voice softer in Wax’s ear. But something is wrong beyond that. She can hide from me, and while I can speak to her, she doesn’t have to listen—and I can’t keep track of where she is.

Paalm was able to hide from Sazed because she only had one spike and it was made from an Unkown God Metal . We don’t know if it is Trelliuim or popular belief Autonomy God Metal . It takes 2 or more spikes for Sazed ( Harmony) to be able to view someone and/or communicate with them. 

   We don’t know how many spikes Kelsier is using. We don’t know if he is using the ones Spook found belonging to the old Steel Inquisitors or if he has one Spike of Trellium , like Paalm. If he does have one spike he can hide from Harmony!

[Weltall]

The point is that Sazed says very clearly that he can't 'see' Paalm but he can still communicate with her. All he needs is a single spike, we see him do it all the time. The only thing that the number of spikes normally affects for Sazed is whether or not he can directly control you through the 'hole' that Ruin worked into hemalurgy. Metal piercing the soul, using one of Harmony's magic systems, that's enough to create a link for communication. And we know that other Shards could use that same channel to communicate with someone who's spiked though it wouldn't be as apparent, even without having a direct link to the magic system.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Weltall

[Calderis]

As usual, @Weltall has the right of things.

If it took more than one spike for Sazed to communicate, Wax's earring would be pointless. Control, location, and communication all seem to be independent of each other. 

[Destinybladez]

somehow kelsier holding odiums shard is more scary than anything in the cosmere ( except perhaps kell with ruins shard )

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

As usual, @Weltall has the right of things.

If it took more than one spike for Sazed to communicate, Wax's earring would be pointless. Control, location, and communication all seem to be independent of each other. 

Perhaps , Have you considered that wax one earring was made of a metal known to Harmony ? Have you considered that Wax wasn’t trying to obfuscate from Harmony ? So what would happen if Wax’s earring was made of Trellium and Wax actively wanted to hide from Harmony ? So my point is even though Paalm only had one spike , the one spike was made of an Unkowm Metal . This had the effect of making it impossible for Harmony to Dominate her . I also think if she wanted to hide and or block communication she could turn off the connection . Whereas if her. spike was made of steel or a metal known to Harmony, she could not obfuscate herself . Please give it a fair consideration before you dismiss it. 

[Weltall]

Perhaps we have given your idea fair consideration and dismissed it because it would require us to ignore what the text plainly says and what Brandon has said outside it when it comes to communicating with the minds of the spiked. Did you think of that possibility before you brushed off our dismissal as some sort of failure on our part?

Harmony says point blank that he can communicate with Paalm even though she has a single spike and it's a Trellium one.  Brandon has said point blank that other Shards -who consequently have absolutely no connection to the magic system or the metals- can communicate with people who have hemalurgic spikes. It does not matter what the metal is, you have a hole into your soul and so long as it's there Harmony can speak to you whether you want it or not. Paalm having a single Trellium spike meant that he couldn't control her or locate her under most circumstances but he could definitely still communicate with her.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

. It does not matter what the metal is, you have a hole into your soul and so long as it's there Harmony can speak to you whether you want it or not. Paalm having a single Trellium spike meant that he couldn't control her or locate her under most circumstances but he could definitely still communicate with her.

Actually I didn’t dismiss it , I pointed out a flaw in your logic . 

 

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

As usual, @Weltall has the right of things.

If it took more than one spike for Sazed to communicate, Wax's earring would be pointless. Control, location, and communication all seem to be independent of each other. 

 

Here Calderis said it only takes one spike to start communication.

Above u said that as long as u have a spike you have a whole in your soul.

Wax one spike is made of a metal known to Harmony. The Earing was made by killing someone . See attachment 

What I’m saying is the person who was killed to invest the Hemalurgic spike has a whole in their soul. Wax doesn’t . The spike is invested and now anyone who uses it can benifit from it without lasting damage to their spirit-web .

Because the metal was known to Harmony and Wax was not trying to hide , communication was assured.

Im going to agree with you on the case of Paalm . Since she has a part of her soul missing in her Original spikes she had from the Lord Ruler. Harmony should always be able to send a message .

But for your theory to work in all circumstances , it has to function the same . U said it doesn’t matter if the spike  is of Trellium. So let’s test that . If a trellium spike was made into a earring by killing John Doe . It would tear of a piece of John Doe spirit web forever damaging his soul . Now if Wax was put that earring in and want to talk to Harmony he could. If Wax got upset with Harmony and wanted to hide and or block communication could he do so ?

     I’m not trying to be argumentative . I really just Like discussing things with guys like Calderis and you who seem to have a firm grasp of how the mechanics work . I do look up things on WoB , but I don’t rely on it because I have seen Brandon contradict himself in WoB. I have also read something a member of his writing team wrote saying that WoB are his current theory , if at later times theory doesn’t fit he will change it in book and that is canon. I have also seen people drastically misinterpret WoB ‘s. So I prefer to talk to sage’s and ask ? So I can understand . I have only read era 2 once and I got the distinct impression Paalm could hide and only at times when she doing something truly devestating could Harmony even see her . Considering the fact the Set has other Kandra in their employ actively working against Harmony , I think I’m right . 

   As a final point , what I’m trying to say is. The person who Invested the spike is damaged . We have seen several people use spikes temporarily that had no permanent damage and largely increased abilities . Their is a big difference in the investor , and the user in my opinion 

[Calderis]

@SzethIsBadAsHell hemalurgy was altered by Ruin to have a hole in it. Any spike is a direct access tithe soul if the individual.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

When I was designing the Three Metallurgic Arts for these books, I knew that I wanted Hemalurgy to have a built in flaw. A flaw that, as a deconstructionalist might say, was created intentionally and relied upon by the very force hoping it won't exploit it.

It was important to me that Ruin eventually be brought down, in part, because of things he did or flaws in his power. Preservation could simply build into the humans he created an innate goodness, then expect them to do as he hoped that they would. Ruin had to be able to directly corrupt and influence people. He felt himself stronger because he could MAKE them do exactly as he wanted.

The problem is, for his magic to work–for him to exercise control over someone–he had to leave a hole, so to speak, that other people could wiggle through and use. And so the entire "control the koloss" plot sequence in Book Two was intended to set up Hemalurgy, and in a way predict Ruin's fall.

Now, the only problem in all of this (for the heroes, at least) is that when Ruin actually got free, he was so strong that it was all but impossible for anyone else to "get through" the holes that he had left in his Hemalurgists. But it wasn't impossible. In a way, the foreshadowing in this book was meant to lay the seed that Ruin's control of his minions is not absolute. And an individual who wanted to resist him had that potential.

source

If you are spiked, you have placed a hole in yourself that a Shard, or anyone of sufficient power can use to influence you. Control can be resisted. Communication can probably be learned to be ignored. 

This is also why Hoid doesn't use spikes to get powers. 

Quote

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

source

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

So if this creates a hole can all shards see and utilize this hole? Does it require two or more spikes? Can Harmony see anyone spiked with any metal ? Or can Harmony see those spiked with metals he is familiar with. And can Autonomy( Trrell) only See People spike with his metal .This is way more complicated than at first glance.