Is Nightblood Connected to Ruin?

[Doomdrinker]

I was reading another thread and someone mentioned their theory on Nightblood and Ruin, it got me thinking about how Kelseir was Connected to Ruin in mistborn and I was wondering if Nightblood could also have some significant Connection?

Obviously he'd have a very strong Connection to Endowment being made with 1000 breaths but with his command being destroy evil and the way he interprets that being extremely destructive, corrupting and consumeing the investiture itself, I think he'd have a very strong Connection to Ruin as well.

[imriel452]

The reason Nightblood is a bit wonky with that command is because it is so subjective- Destroy Evil may mean one thing to one holder, and a completely different thing to another. 

 

Taravangian’s plans can be seen as evil but also can be argued as being for the greater good....

[Leyrann]

It's mostly strong because "destroy" is such a strong word, right? And because "evil" is so ambiguous and the sword can't understand it so it just assumes it's holder will know what evil is.

[Doomdrinker]

I'm not saying it's strength is a result of a connection to ruin. 

I'm asking if you where to see Nightblood spirit webs would there be lines of Connection to ruin there due to Nightbloods nature as a investiture eating monste.

[Weltall]

Kelsier was strongly Connected to Ruin because he's a Scadrian, he's literally made of a mix of Preservation and Ruin's Investiture and he just happens to lean very heavily in the latter direction. Nightblood on the other hand is literally made of Endowment's Investiture (the Breaths that went into the Awakening) and thus has no connection to Ruin's Investiture.

There may be a tiny bit of Connection due to Nightblood being very good at Ruining thing in same way that there's a little bit of Preservation everywhere in the Cosmere, but that's not something that would have a serious impact on anything. The Shards can't influence everything just because they embody universal forces.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Weltall

[Quantus]

The Shards have connection (thus actual Connection, right?) to all aspects of itself in the cosmere, even if the host is not consciously aware of all that infinity, until something draws their attention to it. The more investiture is tied in that attention-grabber, though, the more likely Id think that it would draw notice.  On the other hand, he's been drawing all kinds of Investiture since his original manufacture, far FAR more than those initial 1000 breaths, if he's now " one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard ".  So his current Investiture is not just those Breathes, but also all the Stormlight and who know what else he's sucked up.  The real question is if it maintains any of the source Shard's influence or if it somehow distills/purifies/reverts it to pure Investiture. 

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

On the other hand, he's been drawing all kinds of Investiture since his original manufacture, far FAR more than those initial 1000 breaths, if he's now " one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard ".  So his current Investiture is not just those Breathes, but also all the Stormlight and who know what else he's sucked up.  The real question is if it maintains any of the source Shard's influence or if it somehow distills/purifies/reverts it to pure Investiture. 

Vasher thinks that Nightblood has always been more than those thousand Breaths account for. 

Nightblood leaks. I don't believe he retains any of the investiture he eats. I don't think he's growing in power. I think that since day one, there's been something else going on. 

I personally think that it is something about the way that Shashara envisioned her command that created the scenario. I also do think that the black color is a mixture of shard intents, and that that command cause some kind of reaction that made the burgeoning consciousness that was Nightblood pull investiture from a Shard other than Endowment. I do happen to think that investiture came from Ruin because of how well it fits with his command. 

It's all wild speculation, because we know nothing specific about its creation. 

There's just to much with the sword that doesn't fit, and commands are far more about intent than the spoken words. 

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Questioner

Based on what we know currently about ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember that the characters's perception is very important.

Questioner

So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, it's the exact same reason that Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal. Because he views himself as having those somewhere deep inside of him and he can't heal until that gets away. And it works for the same reason why in Warbreaker when you bring something to life, your intention rather than really what you say is what matters. It's all about perception.

source

Who knows what Shashara pictured. 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Who knows what Shashara pictured

Though this is cearly pure speculation; I think her word choice gives us a good hint at her mindset.

She didn't say something like "prevent evil" or "stop evil".  She specifically went with destroy; which really seems like something that Ruin or perhaps Odium would associate with. (And obviously this isn't focusing on what she considered evil; which would add a whole extra layer)

[Quantus]

I honestly hadnt given the idea of a Nightblood Ruin Connection much thought. Seeing the discussion falling out I find myself on the doubters side for most aspects.  Im reasonably confident that the Color of nightblood isnt indicative of Ruin, as this WOB says it's not a cosmere-wide color effect, all indications tell me it wasnt created from a God-metal (though saying it's now Invested enough to have become one fits).

The only compelling part of the theory for me is the idea that Nightblood's specific Command is what forged a link to Ruin.  The mechanics of Investiture are still fuzzy to me, especially when it comes to "pure" investiture vs that which is flavored by a Shard.  But we have WOB indicating that the Shards do possess infinite Cosmere-wide connections expression of their Intent even if the Host is not consciously Aware of it.  So if we say that the true secret to TypeIV Awakening is that you requires a base-does of Breathes to initially "Endow" the object, but that the Command is Required because it then uses the starter-Investiture to forge a link to the most appropriate Shard for it's actual Power-source.  So if the Command had instead been something like "Promote Good" it might have linked to Cultivation, or something like a rebel's "Preserve Freedom" battle-cry might connect to either Preservation or Autonomy, maybe even both.

[Ethan_sedai]

how could it not be? at very least, it is Connected...

also, the black mist that seeps from Nightblood makes me think of Ruin's black mist...

[goody153]

Pretty sure by intent Nightblood is connected to Ruin just like all kinds of death/murder/destruction happening everywhere in Cosmere. But he's surely of Endowment.  

Ruin's color black is just a coloring thing that happened between him and preservation because of their interactions, time spent together and role in Scadrial.

Edited August 10, 2018 by goody153

[imriel452]

You could also argue that, with the 10th Awakening, Susebron is able to gain power from any colour (sorry- long time since I read Warbreaker so please correct) and White is, as school taught us all, a mix of all colours in the spectrum.

 

black could be seen as being the opposite of this, which fits with Nightblood’s ability to literally suck investiture from people like a Cosmeric Vampire

I do not believe there is any major connection to Ruin aka Ati.

[Calderis]

Earlier in the thread, when I said the command caused Nightblood to draw on Ruin, I did not say, and did not mean, Ati. 

I wish I could find the original WoB that this refers to but... 

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NeedsAdjustment

You've said before that if a sentient computer were developed, it would call a soul into itself. Could it be Hemalurgically spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes, but I have no idea yet how the logistics of that would work.

source

If a computer becoming sentient would draw a soul (composed of investiture) into itself, using absolutely no magic whatsoever then that soul would be drawn off of the investiture that is everywhere. I see no reason why Nightblood would be limited to prevent that. 

The things that we have learned recently about Autonomy have shown us that investiture for all of the Shards permeates the Cosmere. There are pockets of them all everywhere, not just where a Shard has chosen to invest. 

I think that the Awakening provided the initial spark needed to create a sentient being in Nightblood, and that then "called a soul unto itself" built around the command it was given. That command, to destroy, aligned Nightblood with Ruin, and so the soul drew on Ruin in its birth providing the investiture that is so unexplained. 

That mixture of Endowment through the method of its creation, and Ruin through its birth, create the mixture that we see manifest in the black "corrupted" investiture that he consumes and expels. 

He has investiture that is drawn from Ruin, while the Shard of Ruin is in no way consciously involved. 

[+Extesian]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Earlier in the thread, when I said the command caused Nightblood to draw on Ruin, I did not say, and did not mean, Ati. 

I wish I could find the original WoB that this refers to but... 

If a computer becoming sentient would draw a soul (composed of investiture) into itself, using absolutely no magic whatsoever then that soul would be drawn off of the investiture that is everywhere. I see no reason why Nightblood would be limited to prevent that. 

The things that we have learned recently about Autonomy have shown us that investiture for all of the Shards permeates the Cosmere. There are pockets of them all everywhere, not just where a Shard has chosen to invest. 

I think that the Awakening provided the initial spark needed to create a sentient being in Nightblood, and that then "called a soul unto itself" built around the command it was given. That command, to destroy, aligned Nightblood with Ruin, and so the soul drew on Ruin in its birth providing the investiture that is so unexplained. 

That mixture of Endowment through the method of its creation, and Ruin through its birth, create the mixture that we see manifest in the black "corrupted" investiture that he consumes and expels. 

He has investiture that is drawn from Ruin, while the Shard of Ruin is in no way consciously involved. 

When cal can't find a WoB I know I've been summoned

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VindicationKnight

If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

source

personally i think endowment intervened and super charged NB with investiture and the corruption is the internal corruption of the command conflicting with the intent, rather than a mixing of shards. I'm not super wedded to that though

[tmnsquirtle]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Earlier in the thread, when I said the command caused Nightblood to draw on Ruin, I did not say, and did not mean, Ati. 

I wish I could find the original WoB that this refers to but... 

If a computer becoming sentient would draw a soul (composed of investiture) into itself, using absolutely no magic whatsoever then that soul would be drawn off of the investiture that is everywhere. I see no reason why Nightblood would be limited to prevent that. 

The things that we have learned recently about Autonomy have shown us that investiture for all of the Shards permeates the Cosmere. There are pockets of them all everywhere, not just where a Shard has chosen to invest. 

I think that the Awakening provided the initial spark needed to create a sentient being in Nightblood, and that then "called a soul unto itself" built around the command it was given. That command, to destroy, aligned Nightblood with Ruin, and so the soul drew on Ruin in its birth providing the investiture that is so unexplained. 

That mixture of Endowment through the method of its creation, and Ruin through its birth, create the mixture that we see manifest in the black "corrupted" investiture that he consumes and expels. 

He has investiture that is drawn from Ruin, while the Shard of Ruin is in no way consciously involved. 

This implies, though, that if Sazed ever became aware of nightblood, he would probably be able to meddle.

Sounds like a good Era 4 plot to me.

[Morsk]

On 8/10/2018 at 1:30 AM, Calderis said:

Earlier in the thread, when I said the command caused Nightblood to draw on Ruin, I did not say, and did not mean, Ati. 

...

The things that we have learned recently about Autonomy have shown us that investiture for all of the Shards permeates the Cosmere. There are pockets of them all everywhere, not just where a Shard has chosen to invest.

I think that the Awakening provided the initial spark needed to create a sentient being in Nightblood, and that then "called a soul unto itself" built around the command it was given. That command, to destroy, aligned Nightblood with Ruin, and so the soul drew on Ruin in its birth providing the investiture that is so unexplained. 

I really like this, but I'm going to disagree with the "not from Ati" part since I'm thinking it's literally the atium from the Battle of Hathsin. The investiture is unaccounted for. I think the default theory was that it would eventually return to Harmony, unbalancing him, and forcing him to create atium again, or creating plot hooks about the imbalance. But none of that seems to be happening. The investiture is just gone. Maybe you're right that some little bit of "unaffiliated" Ruin was called into the new mind of Nightblood, but I'd say it immediately found a Connection to a ton of other investiture wanting to be alive, and taking the outlet it was given.

The Manywar is 300 years before Warbreaker. Hero of Ages is also before Warbreaker, but we don't know exactly how much. It could fit.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Morsk said:

I really like this, but I'm going to disagree with the "not from Ati" part since I'm thinking it's literally the atium from the Battle of Hathsin. The investiture is unaccounted for. I think the default theory was that it would eventually return to Harmony, unbalancing him, and forcing him to create atium again, or creating plot hooks about the imbalance. But none of that seems to be happening. The investiture is just gone. Maybe you're right that some little bit of "unaffiliated" Ruin was called into the new mind of Nightblood, but I'd say it immediately found a Connection to a ton of other investiture wanting to be alive, and taking the outlet it was given.

The Manywar is 300 years before Warbreaker. Hero of Ages is also before Warbreaker, but we don't know exactly how much. It could fit.

Eh. I disagree there. 

Era 2 takes place roughly 300 years after hero of ages, and AoL isn't until the beginning of the second arc of stormlight.

Warbreaker takes place at least far enough before tWoK for a sequel books to occur, and for Vasher to have then made it to Roshar and find his way into Dalinar's service for long enough to be a known swordmaster and teach Adolin since his childhood. 

I don't see any way for Vasher's time on Roshar to be less than 15 years at a bare minimum, probably more. Then you have to add in any time backwards between  tWoK and Nightblood, and Nightblood and Warbreaker. 

We also have this saying that however large the gap is, Shadows for silence is in the gap after Warbreaker. 

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Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

source

However long that gap actually is, I think it places the manywar during the Lord Ruler's reign on Scadrial. 

[Solarserpent]

Does Nightblood have to be connected too Ruin or another Shard?

I would think that if Nightblood was corrupted by a different Shard then it would glow red as we have seen in humans (might just be specific to humans though) though if it was tied to Ruin first then it is not exactly corrupted. Black smoke could be a sign of the corruption of its own Shardic intent (this is my guess). The Black also might be due to the severing of spiritual connections and have nothing to do with Intent or corruption. If everything in the Cosmere is infused with some investiture than Nightblood could just be destroying everything and releasing black smoke constantly (assuming air molecules have tiny souls and investiture) . 

 

 

 

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Solarserpent said:

Does Nightblood have to be connected too Ruin or another Shard?

I would think that if Nightblood was corrupted by a different Shard then it would glow red as we have seen in humans (might just be specific to humans though) though if it was tied to Ruin first then it is not exactly corrupted. Black smoke could be a sign of the corruption of its own Shardic intent (this is my guess). The Black also might be due to the severing of spiritual connections and have nothing to do with Intent or corruption. If everything in the Cosmere is infused with some investiture than Nightblood could just be destroying everything and releasing black smoke constantly (assuming air molecules have tiny souls and investiture) . 

Red isn't a sig  of corruption, but of directly co-opted investiture. Black "corruption" is a sig  of mixed investiture. 

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Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

source

For it to be red, would require direct Shardic involvement. Ruin intentionally taking over another system. That could be called "corruption" as well, but it's a takeover in contrast to a mixing when something is created. 

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FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW]

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

Keep in mind that this is all speculative. We don't know any of this stuff for sure. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

Yeah, I gotta say, even though it was clearly done mostly for comic effect, that was a really REALLY stupid move on Vasher’s part. It’s a little like programming a computer to protect against viruses without programming it to know what a virus is.

[Juanaton]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:40 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, I gotta say, even though it was clearly done mostly for comic effect, that was a really REALLY stupid move on Vasher’s part. It’s a little like programming a computer to protect against viruses without programming it to know what a virus is.

Nightblood is not a creation of Vasher. Shashara awakened Nightblood.

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Juanaton said:

Nightblood is not a creation of Vasher. Shashara awakened Nightblood.

Wasn’t Vasher the one who instructed her? Sorry, I haven’t gotten to Warbreaker yet.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Wasn’t Vasher the one who instructed her? Sorry, I haven’t gotten to Warbreaker yet.

They collaborated, and Vasher helped her devise the command... But she's the one who actually Awakened it, and it's her visualization that matters. 

By Vasher's account at least, he believes that she was the more skilled of the two of them. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

Fair enough. Either way, my basic point was still valid.

[Weltall]

Shashara was Nightblood's first wielder and presumably had plans for her potentially immortal life that didn't include getting murdered shortly after Twilight Falls. It's entirely possible she was purposefully vague because she never planned on letting it out of her hands, thus leaving her in the position of getting to say what counts as evil. Nightblood 'knows' that his user is equipped to judge good and evil.

It's also possible of course that she didn't even try because evil is such a vague concept that it would be an extremely difficult thing to visualize in more concrete terms and that could cause problems in the Awakening process. Not that these are mutually exclusive ideas.