Jump to content

Reading Excuses- The Ivory Tower- Scenes 5&6- 26JUN18


Jorville

Recommended Posts

Hello again,
Back and ready to go!
In the last scene we saw M come home with a dress and have a conversation with her father.
In the comming two scenes M is paid a surprise visit from a friend and then then she goes to the ball that her father arranged for her.
 
Thanks for the read and I look forward to your help improving this work.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Overall, this still comes across as dry. I'm not sure what M's goal is, aside from wandering around this town, and all the talk about trade isn't very interesting. There's a lot of infodumping, which could be cut down to help the flow. I've tried to point out the sections below.

I do like E's character. She's a lot more interesting than most of the others we've met, and has some personality. Right now, I'd rather read a books with her as the main character rather than M.

For all the buildup about the ball, I was expecting...more? Or at least for something to happen. Right now the only thing is that M's father is injured, but that's only after 18 pages of trade disputes and names of people and places I don't know.

Also, I didn't point out grammar, but there are a lot of missing commas and apostrophes.

I do think there's a core of a good story in here. It just needs to be cut back a lot to get it to shine.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: too much description. It's been a while since we read, so WRS is in full effect, but I have no real connection to the character until a little bit in the last paragraph.

Pg 2: need some better blocking in the fight. I had to read through twice to figure out there were two women in the fight.

pg 2: "She was referring to the bond they shared"
--I think this goes with the previous paragraph? Also, it's really obvious.

pg 2: and then lots od telly infodump. I'd rather see this come out in actions.

pg 3: "Don’t really know much about this bond at all."
--wait, what? She referred to it previously as if she knew about it. Also, where did this come from? I don't think it's been mentioned before. Very telly here.

pg 4: "I thought your gods didn’t allow that"
--I thought they were both from the same place? Starting to get confused with the other person. Who are they are why are they here?

pg 6: This whole section with E. and M. seems forced, like it's there to give background information about their culture. It makes the dialogue pretty stilted, and fails the Bechdel test a lot.

pg 8: Not really interested in all the talk about trade. Does it have something to do with furthering the plot?

pg 9: "E. had saved her from getting embarrassed by H. again."
--Could delete this. It's pretty obvious.

pg 10: so, E has a lot more personality than M, and I'm enjoying her a lot more.

pg 11: "Would you like to see my palace?" Nudge nudge, wink wink...

pg 12: "G. looked crestfallen at the departure of his newfound company. He likely didn’t like that one of the few people talking to him was leaving."
--Again, you could delete the second line here. You'ce already  showed us the reaction, but now you're telling us the same thing, and it's not as powerful.

pg 14: "She hoped to see the handsome sorcerer again"
--Is this A? I thought she like the guy she met in the tailor's shop?

pg 16: the one-upping here is very obvious and out in the open. Would someone familiar with court intrigue really be saying everything out loud like that?

pg 17: Hm...the word "savage" is really starting to pull me out when I read. It has a lot of negative connotations in our society, and could probably be exchanged for an in-world term with less baggage.

pg 17: "M. crossed her arms, satisfied that she had destroyed her opponent"
--No, I don't buy it. All the bickering here is way too juvenlie for people with supposedly "high society" manners. They don't say whatever comes into their mind.

pg 18: "something red came out"
--just say blood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So glad to have you back in the fold. Let's get on with these comments!! :) 

Not doing LBLs, because I'm not sure we're at that stage yet.

Scene 5

The phrase "business wing" put me off. It feel modern. I don't think a house in this pseudo-historical setting (which I analogise to  would have a business wing (which I read as 'business centre', like some hotels have).

The scene is rather background heavy at the beginning, but I don't mind. The language, of course, could be smoother, but first draft get-out-of-jail-free card applies :) 

The encounter with her sister worked well enough. I wasn't entirely convinced about certain logistics of the action, but again, this can be smoothed out. Specifically, how can the sweep of a blade go over her head from the room if she hasn't stepped through the doorway?

As a fan, I'm forced to draw a link between the 'bond' and the extensive use of bonds between warders and Aes sedai in Wheel of Time.

I'm surprised they don't know about the bond, when they lived in the society which had the bond (presumably), and I'm guessing knew other people who have it?

Three separate instances of "Oh, M....," on the same page. Two is bad enough. Very repetitive.

Are E's gods not M's gods, then?

M speaks about E as if they are of a separate race, but then mentions that she (M) would not forsake 'her' people. There seems to be inconsistency in M's references to her position, and I mean more so than someone conflicted about it.

"The People’s identity was everything" - and yet M referred to E's gods, as if they were not also M's.

"He was handsome and charming" - not in my book he wasn't.

Scene 6 

Personally, I think a 'mural' is on a wall, and a ceiling painting is a 'fresco'. The French word for wall being 'our' (from the Latin, no doubt).

I'm confused by the discussion about the contract. Mainly, I think, because of there being personal pronouns in areas where it's not clear who is being referred to. When the speaker says "They were so focused on the fruit contract...", I don't know who 'they' is. This was a feature of the discussion between M and E, as I wasn't sure sometimes which  'she' was being referred to.

The confusion extends a bit because E isn't introduced for quite a while after she starts speaking, and then she uses a false name, and then there's the name of H's escort, which seems irrelevant, as he plays not part in the scene. I appreciate that you need him there, but I don't really want a useless name to puzzle over. You might use it as a way to illustrate H's mean character by having her ignore her escort, and not even introduce him.

M ends up looking weak in this scene, needing E to rescue her. E seems a more animated and resourceful character at this point, which tends to make her more interesting.

A.M. must be a card-carrying member of Villains Anonymous, surely, with a name like that. I mean A ~ Avarice; Mel = Mal = 'bad' + Crow? Certainly, I don't buy M's enthusiasm at his arrival and the prospect of dancing with him. It seems very forced and insincere.

It seems to me that the way M talks about 'home' and the fact that it is not here, tends to reveal her subconscious feelings about whether or not to stay here, i.e. not.

Bah, I'm itching to comment on the grammar, but I think I've done fairly well in not, up to the this point. Some of the wording is off, like M looking 'dreadful' at the prospect of talking to guests, and balconies are exclusively 'upstairs', I am pretty certain.

I still lack emotional investment in M's reaction to A. She think of him as being a good match, and good breeding stock: these are not romantic reactions.

The scream was a bit much for me, the syntax, I mean.

The verbal 'battle' with H was entertaining, although I think the barbs need polishing, as I am sure you will do. I think there is maybe there is a touch of the 'age' of the comments (language) varying a bit.

OMG, A is such a villain!! he has done this, surely, him being a sorcerer and all.

The language of her last bit with her father makes M seem very passive. "She watched as  He retched...", and "By the time she got to the balcony she saw her father was laying prone". What I'm trying to get at is that the language places her as observing things happening, rather than being involved.

Summary 

Despite various issues highlighted, and first draft 'drawbacks', I'm still enjoying following the character, and I'm sure edits can strengthen the story, and the narrative. One thing I would like to see in future version above pretty much everything else is for M's emotions and reactions to be more convincing and therefore satisfying.

Still interesting work though. I'm always a fan of intrigue, and I think you're managing that pretty well, and no doubt will be able to punch it up more in future submission and versions. Take A, for example. I'm hoping that M will start to have more doubts about him as we go forward. The duke's son veers dangerously towards Elend Venture from Mistborn in his set up (bookish, distant, nerdy). I think that's something to be wary of.

<R>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I feel like I made a mistake with this submission. I was already over word count and I didn't want to go way over with the 680 words of the next scene. I feel like I should have presented the scene with E and M. Then next sub with the scene directly after the ball. Having said that and reading the scene again I should just have been scene 7 the ending of scene 6. C'est la vie, I fully expect some commentary to this effect on my next sub. 

Anyways, I appreciate the comments so far and will address them specifically where I need to for clarification and questions later. I am still in the process of reading and commenting on your guys subs right now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot for the feedback here. Definitely helps out, ton of good stuff to work with here.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

There's a lot of infodumping, which could be cut down to help the flow. I've tried to point out the sections below.

pg 2: and then lots of telly infodump. I'd rather see this come out in actions.

pg 1: too much description. It's been a while since we read, so WRS is in full effect, but I have no real connection to the character until a little bit in the last paragraph.

Yeah, I have started to notice a lot of the telly/infodumpy stuff. I am going to start going through that and seeing what I can do.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

I do like E's character. She's a lot more interesting than most of the others we've met, and has some personality. Right now, I'd rather read a books with her as the main character rather than M.

pg 10: so, E has a lot more personality than M, and I'm enjoying her a lot more.

Yeah E does have a lot more forward with the personality at this point. M is more reserved, I need to find a way to get through with M's own personality a bit more.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

For all the buildup about the ball, I was expecting...more? Or at least for something to happen. Right now the only thing is that M's father is injured, but that's only after 18 pages of trade disputes and names of people and places I don't know.

pg 8: Not really interested in all the talk about trade. Does it have something to do with furthering the plot?

pg 16: the one-upping here is very obvious and out in the open. Would someone familiar with court intrigue really be saying everything out loud like that?

pg 17: "M. crossed her arms, satisfied that she had destroyed her opponent"
--No, I don't buy it. All the bickering here is way too juvenlie for people with supposedly "high society" manners. They don't say whatever comes into their mind.

So this being a merchant society, I felt like it would be important to them so it was a natural foil. Sort of a "ha, my family one upped yours, take that!" I will try to bounce this around with @QuirkyGrandpa, also I am open to any suggestions about something to talk about. It was important for M to be able to meet them on their terms.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

Also, I didn't point out grammar, but there are a lot of missing commas and apostrophes.

I haven't been focusing on that but I will go for a careful read through.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

Pg 2: need some better blocking in the fight. I had to read through twice to figure out there were two women in the fight.

Yeah definitely something I will work on.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 2: "She was referring to the bond they shared"
--I think this goes with the previous paragraph? Also, it's really obvious.

pg 3: "Don’t really know much about this bond at all."
--wait, what? She referred to it previously as if she knew about it. Also, where did this come from? I don't think it's been mentioned before. Very telly here.

pg 4: "I thought your gods didn’t allow that"
--I thought they were both from the same place? Starting to get confused with the other person. Who are they are why are they here?

pg 6: This whole section with E. and M. seems forced, like it's there to give background information about their culture. It makes the dialogue pretty stilted, and fails the Bechdel test a lot.

So E and M are not blood relation. So E doesn't know a ton about M's culture. They met elsewhere(another story idea I had a long time ago) on another quest type thing. I will try to go through this and clear a lot of this up. It obviously didn't come across the way I wanted it to.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 9: "E. had saved her from getting embarrassed by H. again."
--Could delete this. It's pretty obvious.

Yeah, you are right.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 12: "G. looked crestfallen at the departure of his newfound company. He likely didn’t like that one of the few people talking to him was leaving."
--Again, you could delete the second line here. You'ce already  showed us the reaction, but now you're telling us the same thing, and it's not as powerful.

I agree, definitly will change that

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 14: "She hoped to see the handsome sorcerer again"
--Is this A? I thought she like the guy she met in the tailor's shop?

So in my efforts to appease @QuirkyGrandpa's crazy aversion to using the same word to describe someone twice per story, lol, I have ended up confusing people. this is something I definitely need to fix.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 17: Hm...the word "savage" is really starting to pull me out when I read. It has a lot of negative connotations in our society, and could probably be exchanged for an in-world term with less baggage.

hmm, I, personally don't feel there is a lot of baggage. It isn't something I want to alienate people over though, and if it is taking people out of the narrative then it really is a problem for me. I will work on something to see if I can fix this issue.

On 6/28/2018 at 6:08 AM, Mandamon said:

pg 18: "something red came out"
--just say blood.

I wanted to go for the feeling here that M didn't want it to be blood. But I realize from a distance wine would look dark not really red. So I will probably end up changing it to blood.

Edited by Jorville
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going to try a response method I have seen you use. Feels like it might take some less time.:lol:

On 6/29/2018 at 0:51 AM, Robinski said:

So glad to have you back in the fold. Let's get on with these comments!! :) 

Not doing LBLs, because I'm not sure we're at that stage yet.

Scene 5

The phrase "business wing" put me off. It feel modern. I don't think a house in this pseudo-historical setting (which I analogise to  would have a business wing (which I read as 'business centre', like some hotels have).

Great Point! I feel like we have spoke on this before, lol. I will look into using a more archaic term for this.

The scene is rather background heavy at the beginning, but I don't mind. The language, of course, could be smoother, but first draft get-out-of-jail-free card applies :) 

Yeah, this has been addressed before. I will try to work it in and make it feel more natural. 

The encounter with her sister worked well enough. I wasn't entirely convinced about certain logistics of the action, but again, this can be smoothed out. Specifically, how can the sweep of a blade go over her head from the room if she hasn't stepped through the doorway?

Yeah, I need to work through this again. I will try to clear it up.

As a fan, I'm forced to draw a link between the 'bond' and the extensive use of bonds between warders and Aes sedai in Wheel of Time.

I'm surprised they don't know about the bond, when they lived in the society which had the bond (presumably), and I'm guessing knew other people who have it?

I might take a lot of the references here out. Just make a small reference in passing. Its not that important to the story and it doesn't have the big of a personal effect on them. So might be best just leaving most of it out.

Three separate instances of "Oh, M....," on the same page. Two is bad enough. Very repetitive.

Yeah, will fix that.

Are E's gods not M's gods, then?

M speaks about E as if they are of a separate race, but then mentions that she (M) would not forsake 'her' people. There seems to be inconsistency in M's references to her position, and I mean more so than someone conflicted about it.

"The People’s identity was everything" - and yet M referred to E's gods, as if they were not also M's.

E and M are not part of the same people. They met on a sort of quest thing that is another story idea of mine. I will try to make that more clear.

"He was handsome and charming" - not in my book he wasn't.

Charming or flattering...really the same thing, aren't they?

Scene 6 

Personally, I think a 'mural' is on a wall, and a ceiling painting is a 'fresco'. The French word for wall being 'our' (from the Latin, no doubt).

Fresco just says water-based paints on a lime plaster, but mural does say wall specifically, I will change the word.

I'm confused by the discussion about the contract. Mainly, I think, because of there being personal pronouns in areas where it's not clear who is being referred to. When the speaker says "They were so focused on the fruit contract...", I don't know who 'they' is. This was a feature of the discussion between M and E, as I wasn't sure sometimes which  'she' was being referred to.

The confusion extends a bit because E isn't introduced for quite a while after she starts speaking, and then she uses a false name, and then there's the name of H's escort, which seems irrelevant, as he plays not part in the scene. I appreciate that you need him there, but I don't really want a useless name to puzzle over. You might use it as a way to illustrate H's mean character by having her ignore her escort, and not even introduce him.

Ok, I see what you are saying. I will try to make that more clear.

M ends up looking weak in this scene, needing E to rescue her. E seems a more animated and resourceful character at this point, which tends to make her more interesting.

thats what I am going for here. I do feel like I need to bring out M as a personality more though, the comments lead me to see that she is kinda flat right now.

A.M. must be a card-carrying member of Villains Anonymous, surely, with a name like that. I mean A ~ Avarice; Mel = Mal = 'bad' + Crow? Certainly, I don't buy M's enthusiasm at his arrival and the prospect of dancing with him. It seems very forced and insincere.

Hmm, I need to work and make this a little more believable

It seems to me that the way M talks about 'home' and the fact that it is not here, tends to reveal her subconscious feelings about whether or not to stay here, i.e. not.

Ok good, that is where I want her to be at this point. Though its not so much a like of home as a fear of the unknown, do I need to clear that up more?

Bah, I'm itching to comment on the grammar, but I think I've done fairly well in not, up to the this point. Some of the wording is off, like M looking 'dreadful' at the prospect of talking to guests, and balconies are exclusively 'upstairs', I am pretty certain.

Ok will take a look at this and see if I can get something better out of it.

I still lack emotional investment in M's reaction to A. She think of him as being a good match, and good breeding stock: these are not romantic reactions.

So that is the primary impetus of M's people is matching and breeding stock. romantic notions come very secondary to that. I do need get some more emotional investment in there though.  

The scream was a bit much for me, the syntax, I mean.

So reading that again, I think I got a little influenced by L.E. Modesitt in the scream area. He does his screams in that style, lol.

The verbal 'battle' with H was entertaining, although I think the barbs need polishing, as I am sure you will do. I think there is maybe there is a touch of the 'age' of the comments (language) varying a bit.

Ok, yeah from both commentators this needs a bit of work. definitly need to revisit this.

OMG, A is such a villain!! he has done this, surely, him being a sorcerer and all.

hmmm...

The language of her last bit with her father makes M seem very passive. "She watched as  He retched...", and "By the time she got to the balcony she saw her father was laying prone". What I'm trying to get at is that the language places her as observing things happening, rather than being involved.

Good point, I will try to clean that up and make sure that she sounds more active.

Summary 

Despite various issues highlighted, and first draft 'drawbacks', I'm still enjoying following the character, and I'm sure edits can strengthen the story, and the narrative. One thing I would like to see in future version above pretty much everything else is for M's emotions and reactions to be more convincing and therefore satisfying.

Still interesting work though. I'm always a fan of intrigue, and I think you're managing that pretty well, and no doubt will be able to punch it up more in future submission and versions. Take A, for example. I'm hoping that M will start to have more doubts about him as we go forward. The duke's son veers dangerously towards Elend Venture from Mistborn in his set up (bookish, distant, nerdy). I think that's something to be wary of.

So the Duke's son just plays a bit role in this story. So, I don't have that much worry for getting him thrown in that mold.

Thanks for the comments, look forward to putting them in.

Edited by Jorville
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jorville said:

Charming or flattering...really the same thing, aren't they?

I wouldn't have said so. Flattering is clear enough, but I would have said charm is genuine, engaging likability, whereas flattery can be a negative thing if delivered with an agenda in mind that is not genuine. It's worth looking at the definition of 'smarmy' in parallel with these two.

1 hour ago, Jorville said:

He does his screams in that style, lol.

Hmm. This does not attract me towards reading his work which, strangely, I haven't up to now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Robinski said:

Hmm. This does not attract me towards reading his work which, strangely, I haven't up to now.

So, Modesitt can be kind of dry and engineery(is that a word) but his work is good and the screams dont happen all the time.

9 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I wouldn't have said so. Flattering is clear enough, but I would have said charm is genuine, engaging likability, whereas flattery can be a negative thing if delivered with an agenda in mind that is not genuine. It's worth looking at the definition of 'smarmy' in parallel with these two.

I was trying to sound cheeky, I should have used an emoji.:P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, I found this section to be extremely problematic and vaguely racist, which is a continuation and intensification of the problematic and racist themes that were in earlier submissions.  I did not want to speak too strongly about it initially, as I had hoped they were things that would work themselves out as the story progressed. It appears the opposite has happened and these issues are intensifying. In this submission it's been stated that

 

M's people live in bare stone huts because the simplicity makes them strong, as opposed to the soft, "civilized" comfort of the mansion.

M, a dark-skinned minority who is proud of her heritage, prefers the "civilized" comforts of the mansion.

 

M's people don't marry or have children, they "mate" and "breed," words that are usually associated with animals.

 

M's people have music, but it is "deep," "rhythmic," and too "energetic" for "civilized" conversations.

M's people dance, but it is "energetic" and rough, as opposed to "civilized" dance, which is "graceful" and "light."

M, a dark-skinned minority who is proud of her heritage, prefers the "civilized" music and dance.

 

M's best friend questions her heritage as a dark-skinned minority when the best friend notices M can wear "civilized" clothing properly.

M questions her own identity as a dark-skinned minority who is proud of her heritage immediately after her best friend compliments her ability to wear "civilized" clothing properly. 

 

M, a dark-skinned warrior who is proud of her mental aptitude, fails in her attempt to engage her enemy in verbal battle and has to be saved by her pale-skinned best friend.

M succeeds in her second attempt to engage her enemy in verbal battle only by threatening physical violence. 

 

All of these things are extremely problematic tropes and stereotypes that have a deep history of being used and abused by people attempting everything from defending slavery to justifying genocide. I am not exaggerating. 

Whether or not you-the-author is aware of the significance of the words, and the very racist tropes that come with them, is ultimately immaterial because readers are aware. They will react with those tropes in mind, regardless of whatever innocent intentions were on the part of the author as the words were written.

I have done a small, brief, google search. Here are few of the MANY articles out there talking about some of the many "savage" stereotypes that are used to describe dark-skinned minorities, and how the tropes have very real repercussions in today's society. 

 

The idea of a "savage" or brutal native american was often used as a reason to condone killings, abuse, and other atrocities committed on Native Americans and other indigenous cultures throughout history

Stop Calling People Savage --  "Since [Thomas] Jefferson’s days, “savage” has been used repeatedly as a mechanism of oppression. Several U.S. Supreme Court cases have directly or indirectly referred to Indigenous peoples as savages in order to deny them equal rights."

Stereotyping Native Americans -- "Furthermore, from the 17th to the 19th centuries, non-Indian observers portrayed Indians intent on “savage war” more violent than “civilized” combat of European and American governments. ... The ongoing perception of Indians as dangerous contributes to negative expectations, interactions, and consequences. Thus, Indians are incarcerated at high rates, encounter discrimination and hate crimes, and experience other negative impacts. Stereotyped Indian violence also leads non-Indians to fear Native people."

When Native Americans Were Slaughtered in the Name of ‘Civilization’ -- "Even more fundamentally, indigenous people were just too different: Their skin was dark. Their languages were foreign. And their world views and spiritual beliefs were beyond most white men’s comprehension. ... all this stoked racial hatred and paranoia, making it easy to paint indigenous peoples as pagan savages who must be killed in the name of civilization and Christianity." (note: this link contains first-person images of the murder of native americans)

 

The idea of "savage" or less intelligent, primitive, or simple minorities was often used as a reason to excuse ideas of eugenics, social darwinsim, and scientific racism.

Pseudo-scientific racism and Social Darwinism -- "So-called 'white civilised' industrial nations that had technologically advanced weapons had the moral right to conquer and 'civilize' the 'savage blacks' of the world. Social Darwinism was used to rationalise imperialism, colonialism, racism and poverty."

Quora question about the idea of the noble savage and the intelligence of African slaves 

 

The idea of "savage" or brutal black men was and is often used as an excuse for lynchings, fear propaganda, and even police killings today. Yes, M is female, but this is still a trope that is very much in the forefront when these stereotypes are used in conjunction with a dark-skinned violent minority in a mostly-white or assumed-mostly-white (since again, only the people with dark skin have their skin tone mentioned in the story) "civilized" society.

The Brute Caricature  (please note, this link contains brutal and graphic first-person accounts of lynchings, and mob violence)

From “brute” to “thug:” the demonization and criminalization of unarmed Black male victims in America


 And then there is the trope of the "noble savage," which still pervades many disciplines and media sources and is massively harmful even today. 

'He Scarcely Resembles the Real Man': images of the Indian in popular culture 

For Decades, National Geographic's Coverage Was Racist. To Rise Above Our Past, We Must Acknowledge It 

The "Civilized Savage"

 

And these are just a few of the harmful tropes and associations that come up when the these kinds of plot points are used. This is the baggage that comes with "unimportant" words like "savage" and the plot points I listed above.

Regardless of whether that was the intent when it was written, these are the ideas and history that will color the work when a dark-skinned minority is treated in such a way as M has been in this section. Regardless of whether or not it was known beforehand, these are things that will be assumed the writer knew about when the words were written. It is 2018. It is no longer 1818. Regardless of what the reality is, an author who uses tropes like these in their work is going to be assumed to be doing so consciously, intentionally, and with at the very least a tacit agreement in the ideas they represent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Frankly, I found this section to be extremely problematic and vaguely racist, which is a continuation and intensification of the problematic and racist themes that were in earlier submissions.  I did not want to speak too strongly about it initially, as I had hoped they were things that would work themselves out as the story progressed. It appears the opposite has happened and these issues are intensifying.

Thanks for the read and the comments. I feel as though there is a bit of ambiguity in this that may be causing some of the issues here. M is white, the difference here would be the difference between say Scandinavian and Greek. I won't really go into this farther than that right now as I will look over this and past subs to see where I can make things more clear. I know @Robinski commented on my sub before this questioning my use of the word civilization or civilized and he was entirely correct to do so. M comes from a highly advance but harsh and strict culture so M would likely not use the word civilized when contrasting the culture in this city to her own. 

Anyways, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am still going to submit the follow on parts as I wrote them initially, but I am going to make sure I try to make the perspective on the culture clash a bit more clear in the future.

J

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Jorville said:

M is white, the difference here would be the difference between say Scandinavian and Greek.

Making her white or lighter-skinned does not change any of the problematic or racist content being used here.

At this point I can only conclude that these harmful, outdated ideas are an intended feature of the story and I will not continue to critique a story that is willfully hurtful. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We will simply have to agree to disagree :). It's awesome that there are so many people in here with different political or cultural opinions, even if those personal opinions are vastly different or even contrary! This is what makes our world so beautiful. This is why writing is so amazing! We get to write about worlds that are in no way connected to or subjected to the 'rules' of this universe. Magic, Dragons, Space Travel... the possibilities are endless!

 It's great that you have a loud voice and are willing to stand up for what you believe.

Good luck, my previous statement stands, and if nothing else, our disagreement on this topic is good inspiration for how M must feel when someone else approaches her with their vastly different culture. Every little bit helps! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/1/2018 at 1:11 PM, Jorville said:

I, personally don't feel there is a lot of baggage

Popping in from medical leave because someone lit the social justice signal. I know we've been through this before, @Jorville, but looks like we need to go over it again. It doesn't matter what you feel, personally. Using the word savage to refer to people of color is racist, and has a terrible history in science fiction. It has no place here. You can keep putting it in, but think about what you are doing to marginalized populations when you do. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean it isn't an issue.
 

15 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

M's people don't marry or have children, they "mate" and "breed," words that are usually associated with animals.

This is unacceptable. Wholly unacceptable.

15 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

has to be saved by her pale-skinned best friend.

There's whole websites dedicated to the white savior complex. Another problematic trope that needs to be scrubbed.

15 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Regardless of what the reality is, an author who uses tropes like these in their work is going to be assumed to be doing so consciously, intentionally, and with at the very least a tacit agreement in the ideas they represent. 

And I will add that the more concerning thing here is that we have brought these to your attention before, and you have continued to include them. We have given you links before, which it appears you have ignored. We put a lot of time in trying to educate and help. If you want to ignore suggestions on comma use, that's fine. I abuse a comma as much as anyone. But when people are talking about racism, you need to listen. We all need to listen.

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Making her white or lighter-skinned does not change any of the problematic or racist content being used here.

In fact, colorism is a major issue facing groups today and while no, it's not racism, it's still very, very problematic. Consider that this topic may be outside your lane to write about.

1 hour ago, Jorville said:

so many people in here with different political or cultural opinions

... your text, as you have it written, is racist. This isn't a difference of opinion. We can debate intent, sure, but that's a conversation about implicit versus overt racism, not if it IS racism.

We don't have any people of color on this forum that I am aware of. If we did, could you imagine how this discussion would make them feel? Could you imagine defending these phrases to a Native person who has had the word 'savage' hurled against them and used to deny their humanity? Do you think they would see its use in your story as harmless? 

 

You are welcome on this forum, as everyone is welcome on this forum, but that doesn't mean we are going to let problematic behavior slide under a 'let's agree to disagree' banner. We can agree to disagree about how much butter goes on toast or whether pineapple goes on a pizza. We can't agree to disagree about fundamental human value, or rights. 

We are willing to help walk you through this, but you need to meet us halfway. Everyone writes problematic stuff from time to time, and if they are lucky they get called on it. We're here. We're saying this isn't okay. Please hear us so that you can become a better writer and we can make this forum a welcoming place for writers of color.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kais said:

Everyone writes problematic stuff from time to time, and if they are lucky they get called on it. We're here.

I'll add my voice to this as well, as a privileged white male...

@Jorville, I know this doesn't seem like a big issue to you, but @industrialistDragon and @kais have made some good points. I had exactly the same issue in an earlier book I wrote, calling an advanced but subjugated civilization "savages," from the viewpoint of the conquering people. Kais first alerted me to what I was doing, so I did some research on the subject, and found out just how offensive the term and the societal descriptors are to indigenous people and POC, especially in the USA. It's something we (AKA the white male portion of the population) simply don't see because it's so ingrained in our culture. I was eventually persuaded to change the term, and some of the other descriptors around, and the book works much better now.

If you haven't, I'd encourage you to read through some of the links Ind. Dragon provided and see if you find anything you weren't previously aware of. Just look it over, and see if it makes sense. Taking Kais' suggestion of putting yourself in the place of a POC reading the story would also work.

Doing this can really help your writing, and and help to stave off eventual tone-deaf publishing disasters. There's been several recently, that show how badly this stuff can be perceived to someone who doesn't know you.

I think we're all perfectly willing to brainstorm some changes with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kais, @industrialistDragon, I kindly and firmly disagree on a lot of what has been said by you both. I am also confident that the areas I agree with what has been stated, we would come to vastly different conclusions as to what that means or how to ensure those things are implemented. I have thus far, and will continue to, refrain from debate in this forum. I stand by all my previous comments and will discuss this no further on this thread. If you would like to continue to express your point of view to me I would appreciate moving this discussion outside the forum and would be happy to lay out my point of view in great detail as well. Perhaps then we could come to some kind of resolution on this. Here, however, I will make no further posts on this thread.  As always I appreciate the discussion. If you would like to speak further please contact me privately.

J

Edited by Jorville
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jorville @kais @industrialistDragon

I think it is beautiful, that for the most part, this conversation has been kept so lovingly civil. In a world today where personal opinions and politics are destroying the harmony of love and friendship...it's a hopeful sign to me that people can have entirely contrary opinions and still be (mostly) respectful. 

However, I feel the brewing of underlying hostility and would caution peace over war with words in a place that is meant to critique in a way as to be uplifting. If you have more to say, perhaps private messaging would be a more appropriate setting :). 

@Jorville Babe, I'm so proud to see, that even in the face of adversity that you stand firm in what you believe is right. This can be incredibly difficult when colleagues, friends, and even strangers attempt to coral or use peer pressure to get you to change your social, physical, intellectual, emotional, or spiritual beliefs. Remember, you don't have to bend a knee but always keep your ears open, even for those you feel are in the wrong. This helps with a well rounded personality, and a well rounded writer too! <3

@Mandamon That was some great advice! Helpful, without beating the dead horse. 



This is NOT how I wanted to start my first day back :lol:. But, I always seem to come in when people are quarreling over silly stuff. Anyway, hi! I'm tentatively back, I haven't read anyone's stuff for a bit. Oddly enough, losing my MIL hurt me more than I thought it would : /. What a month!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, QuirkyGrandpa said:

But, I always seem to come in when people are quarreling over silly stuff.

Racism is not 'silly stuff.' Critique is in no way meant to be uplifting, it's meant to be honest. We are trying to help and are being ignored and rebuffed. We are being called silly for caring about people of color. I'm so angry I am shaking. We cannot agree to disagree on racism. There is no politeness to cover up racism. 


This is not what this forum is about. And I have reached my limit. @Chaos

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kais said:

Racism is not 'silly stuff.' Critique is in no way meant to be uplifting, it's meant to be honest. We are trying to help and are being ignored and rebuffed. We are being called silly for caring about people of color. I'm so angry I am shaking. We cannot agree to disagree on racism. There is no politeness to cover up racism. 


This is not what this forum is about. And I have reached my limit. @Chaos

Hmm, perhaps I should clarify, that all quarrelling is silly, and it seems I always come back when it comes up. :)

However, there is no limit on kindness, love and understanding <3. Let's all take a deep breath and keep open hearts, and open minds.

______________________________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________

((((EDITING to add some helpful tips to get everyone back on track and feeling ready to both give and receive amazing critiques))))
 

This might be an amazing time for everyone to take a moment to reread the 'Critiquing Guidelines'. Both how to critique, and how to receive them :).

My favorite line for how to give is: 'Be Willing'.
Sometimes, you have to adjust your wording to be helpful for the particular artist/writer you are helping :). That willingness to reach out and embrace their story, and give them the words they need to improve is some of the most important writing of all. It's not always easy to focus wholeheartedly on the -writers- needs <3. However, it is also extremely rewarding. When you learn to adapt your approach, you expand your ability to write and connect with people (while also making new friends from all walks of life). And, as time goes by you will find that your approach, much like that beloved honey, is so much sweeter than vinegar. Remember, you are helping tell -their- story, not rephrasing it to be more like yours.

My favorite line for how to receive is:  'Listen'
It's so difficult, especially when, like now, there is conflict. Try and take a deep breath, and consider taking a day to respond (or not respond if you feel it is too confrontational, simply thank them for their time instead). Take what others have to say with a grain of salt, but remember that their feedback is still useful for its diversity alone. As someone reads your story they are going to miss things that you feel are obvious, or infer things you know are incorrect. It can be difficult not to try and point out these miscommunications :). Instead, make a note of what they missed, and consider that perhaps that is a spot where you can add detail, change your wording, or pull your reader in for a more immersive experience. 

Some other amazing resources on how to give and receive critique can be found on Deviantart! I'm part of a group called Project Comment, and I've found their amazing ability to both tell someone something doesn't look 'nice' while still giving the artist the tools they need absolutely astounding <3. When I first joined the group  and submitted my first piece I was absolutely inspired by the love that could be felt through the careful word choices people used. Why? Because they cared about helping -me-. 

Here is my piece: Alexander the Drake. Which will be a character in the story I will be writing for you guys to critique (When I get up the nerve, still very anxious):

Spoiler

alexander_the_drake_by_karendrae-dbnx8ax

And here is the Critique from whispywizbee:

And, just want to end with some awesome pointers for how to receive feedback  (Just switch out 'art' with 'writing' ;) )

":pointr: Be appreciative and respectful of any comments you receive. Even if you already knew, or disagree with, everything they said, always reply to at least thank them for their time and effort. Not only cause they have at least tried to help you, also cause it will also put any more potential commenters at ease, rather than scare them away.

:pointr: It will help to give comments, too. Treat other people as you wish to be treated. Many will return the favour, and comment on your art, too. An extra advantage is that critiquing an art piece, and putting your thoughts about it to words, will also help you getting better at creating art yourself."

:pointr: Having some faithful watchers and friends on here can help a lot –  INVITE friends onto these forums (seriously), would love to see more people :)

:pointr: Don't be afraid to ask. Many people will be glad to help. That doesn't mean you should go to everyone you can find telling them to comment on your deviations (or writings!), but if you see someone offering, don't let the chance pass you by! You have nothing to lose.:D

Edited by QuirkyGrandpa
Adding Helpful Feedback for All
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jorville, I see upthread that Mandamon has followed up via PM--I hope that discussion is proving helpful. For the benefit of others reading the thread, though, I would like to take an opportunity to encourage everyone to consider these types comments carefully when they're received. 

Our fiction and media landscape is so saturated with problematic tropes (be they racist, sexist, and so on) that they can be difficult to spot in, let alone disentangle from, our own writing. It can take a lot of work on the part of the writer to address these types of concerns because they can be so insidious. That being said, doing so can also be extremely rewarding, as it gives us an opportunity to create more thoughtful world-building and a more immersive setting and characters. I realise that it may feel like an accusation when somebody points out racist tropes as part of a critique. Please remember that these comments are all made in the spirit of improving the work (and a better understanding of the tropes and words that we draw on will inevitably improve the work) and give them the consideration that they deserve.

While it is always ultimately up to the individual writer to accept and implement the changes they receive from other readers, we have a greater responsibility to consider comments that point out problematic tropes in our fiction, because the unfortunate reality is that racism does real harm, including through fiction--specifically the people who never get to see themselves represented in fiction or only ever see themselves represented in a negative light. Aside from any changes we make to a story ,we also have a greater responsibility to consider how we respond to the people pointing these issues out in a critique, because while it's perfectly acceptable to agree or disagree on the effectiveness of a plot hook, a trope with racist, sexist, etc. elements will be hurtful for some readers whether we as writers agree that it should be hurtful or not. Such comments are typically not made lightly--please consider them carefully. If there's something you disagree with or don't understand, ask specific questions. But the onus is on us as individual writers to make sure that we're acknowledging these concerns to the best of our ability, and not on others to convince us that we're doing something wrong. Again: this will only ever lead to a stronger manuscript. 

I also want to briefly address the discussion about hostility and politeness that has been raised here. As always, this forum strives to be a welcoming place to all writers, of all background and abilities, and part of that is creating an honest but supportive environment for the people giving and receiving critiques. That said, racism is always unwelcoming--which means we need to be able to discuss racist tropes that we see in our own fiction and address them (and everybody inadvertently uses problematic tropes sometimes. As I mentioned above, our media landscape is so saturated with them, it takes a very concerted effort not to). And we need to be able to make those critiques without worrying whether we will be dismissed as being silly, or just quarreling, or being needlessly hostile. It is not unreasonable to feel angry or upset about experiencing racism. In the context of critiquing, of course one of the major purposes of a group like this is to point these things out in a safe setting. That being said, we can't do so if we suspect that our comments will just be ignored or dismissed; it is extremely frustrating to make a critique, especially about something potentially damaging, and feel that we have been dismissed out-of-hand! While I certainly don't want to see a thread devolve into a shouting fest, that's certainly not what happened in the above thread, and we need to be able to make critiques as was done above without those critiques being dismissed as quarreling, unreasonable, or silly. (There are some resources about tone policing here and here.)

I don't want to hijack this thread any further, so I will ask that anyone who feels the need to respond to my post here do so by PM only. I will close by urging, again, that we all strive to see critiques regarding problematic tropes in fiction not as a judgment or attack, but as a way to improve our craft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Okay so I'm catching up on subs and this is the next one on my list. Since there's all that... fun stuff above, I'm going to read the sub and exclude any comments on implicit bias issues, since they've been well covered already. 

Overall

Pacing is good in this! I was just starting to wonder how much more ball I had to sit through when the action came, so that was perfect. Again, aside from the issues discussed above, the only other big thing that pulled on me was the understanding of breeding for selective phenotypes and such. I want more about what they're trying to accomplish, or at least why they do it this way, because as it's stated it doesn't make much sense. If talent is additive, then the power of each talent would grow, in theory, with each generation. But I don't see an indicator of that, and it reads more like an obsession with inbreeding that anything else (so then I have to wonder about strange hereditary issues cropping up with the more powerful).

But generally, this seems to be heading in a good direction. Keep at it, and good luck with the revisions!

As I go

- page one: I actually wouldn't mind a bit of description of the artwork, because we'd learn more about the culture through it

- page two: I appreciate the blocking of fighting while in a dress. Movies make it look far too easy sometimes

- page 2-3: what is all this fun backstory about the bond-sister? I want to read that book!

- page four: problematic issues with 'breeding' aside, just from a pure genetics standpoint I feel like this pairing off doesn't make sense. Wouldn't they be trying to (assuming they're all obsessed with Mendelian genetics) cross breed so that you could have, say, a sorcerer-crafter? Assuming that there are positive and negative traits to each group (like, say, sorcerer's use magic but also have a low alcohol tolerance or something) wouldn't they want to breed out bad traits by crossing 'types' to get the best of both worlds? (and then things could go wrong sometimes, like how they keep trying to breed horses with zebras to get hardier zebra-like animals but all they get are the worst attributes of both)

- page six: is this man they're giggling about the one who was borderline abusive in the last sub? WRS maybe here. I don't remember

- page nine: there's a fair amount of telling and not showing in pages eight and nine. Just something to look out for

- page 11: unclear why a warrior wouldn't know structural words. I've never had a class in engineering but I know what struts are. We may need more worldbuilding and information on the system of the protag's village (in terms of the sort of caste system they seem to have) to make this more believable

- page 11: Personally, I'd take a jungle temple over a city palace any day

- Gar is kind of adorable. He's my new 'ship

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/12/2018 at 6:14 PM, kais said:

Okay so I'm catching up on subs and this is the next one on my list. Since there's all that... fun stuff above, I'm going to read the sub and exclude any comments on implicit bias issues, since they've been well covered already. 

Overall

Pacing is good in this! I was just starting to wonder how much more ball I had to sit through when the action came, so that was perfect. Again, aside from the issues discussed above, the only other big thing that pulled on me was the understanding of breeding for selective phenotypes and such. I want more about what they're trying to accomplish, or at least why they do it this way, because as it's stated it doesn't make much sense. If talent is additive, then the power of each talent would grow, in theory, with each generation. But I don't see an indicator of that, and it reads more like an obsession with inbreeding that anything else (so then I have to wonder about strange hereditary issues cropping up with the more powerful).

So this isn't something I have fully fleshed out. I have Ideas on the why of it but I have to clarify other portions of the world's mythos for certain things to make more sense and I haven't been working on that as much. If you would like more of an explanation I can discuss it over PM with you, as it would get rather drawn out over here.

But generally, this seems to be heading in a good direction. Keep at it, and good luck with the revisions!

As I go

- page one: I actually wouldn't mind a bit of description of the artwork, because we'd learn more about the culture through it.

Yeah I am getting a theme that I need to do some more world building with this. This is rapidly becoming a not so short story.

- page two: I appreciate the blocking of fighting while in a dress. Movies make it look far too easy sometimes.

Thanks, There are some confusing thing I could work on but I like it in general.

- page 2-3: what is all this fun backstory about the bond-sister? I want to read that book!

Yeah, so there are a lot of past and future elements when dealing with this story. I, as evidenced, have an idea for this story already, I got lots of different Ideas the trouble is nailing them down and actually doing the story, lol.

- page four: problematic issues with 'breeding' aside, just from a pure genetics standpoint I feel like this pairing off doesn't make sense. Wouldn't they be trying to (assuming they're all obsessed with Mendelian genetics) cross breed so that you could have, say, a sorcerer-crafter? Assuming that there are positive and negative traits to each group (like, say, sorcerer's use magic but also have a low alcohol tolerance or something) wouldn't they want to breed out bad traits by crossing 'types' to get the best of both worlds? (and then things could go wrong sometimes, like how they keep trying to breed horses with zebras to get hardier zebra-like animals but all they get are the worst attributes of both)

- page six: is this man they're giggling about the one who was borderline abusive in the last sub? WRS maybe here. I don't remember

This dialogue isn't where I want it to be. I will likely make some changes

-Pagenine: there's a fair amount of telling and not showing in pages eight and nine. Just something to look out for

Yeah I have a tendency to tell.

- page 11: unclear why a warrior wouldn't know structural words. I've never had a class in engineering but I know what struts are. We may need more worldbuilding and information on the system of the protag's village (in terms of the sort of caste system they seem to have) to make this more believable

Hmm, interesting point. M's people aren't really into sieges so I am not sure that engineering would be important to their warriors. It is worth giving some consideration to though.

- page 11: Personally, I'd take a jungle temple over a city palace any day

Probably more so if I had a chance to get whats in my head out.

- Gar is kind of adorable. He's my new 'ship

Glad he works. he's not that much of a feature right now. Maybe I will work him in a bit more.

 

Thanks for the critiques @kais. Lots of good points. Will definitely try to work some stuff in there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2018 at 0:08 PM, Mandamon said:

There's a lot of infodumping,

Yup.

 

On 6/29/2018 at 6:51 AM, Robinski said:

'm confused by the discussion about the contract. Mainly, I think, because of there being personal pronouns in areas where it's not clear who is being referred to. When the speaker says "They were so focused on the fruit contract...", I don't know who 'they' is. This was a feature of the discussion between M and E, as I wasn't sure sometimes which  'she' was being referred to.

 

I also had a hard time following this section, and was wondering how E knew so much about the contract and the house's business if she wasn't from the area. And why wasn't the narrator surprised that E knew more than she did?

 

On 6/29/2018 at 6:51 AM, Robinski said:

these are not romantic reactions

Yeah -- but I liked the "breeding stock" comment at least for that character. It emphasizes how low men are in her culture...not that I think anyone of any gender should be breeding stock. It just fits this arrogant warrior princess.

 

On 6/29/2018 at 6:51 AM, Robinski said:

OMG, A is such a villain!! he has done this, surely, him being a sorcerer and all.

 

A is the guy she met at the dress shop, right? He almost seemed like a different character at the ball.

On 7/1/2018 at 4:11 PM, Jorville said:

So E and M are not blood relation

This was pretty clear to me, and E seems to be an adept liar. But since she is not from M's culture or M's dad's, I just don't get how she knows so much about this trade world. 

On 7/2/2018 at 1:49 AM, industrialistDragon said:

And these are just a few of the harmful tropes and associations that come up when the these kinds of plot points are used. This is the baggage that comes with "unimportant" words like "savage" and the plot points I listed above.

I don't need to say much about this because @industrialistDragonid a great job with it. Listen to that post. You can get rid of the racist stuff and still have a fish out of water scenario and even make it more powerful.

The only time I would use the word savage, if at all, is then when the b**** at the ball calls M that, and M should really be offended by it, and a big deal should be made about it. Or just complete erase the word savage and civilization from the story. 

On 7/2/2018 at 3:05 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Making her white or lighter-skinned does not change any of the problematic or racist content being used here

I agree that skin tone is irrelevant. Even if this isn't about race, you are still tapping into a history of oppression and making one culture better than the other...is there a way to do this without using the language that ties it to that history? Make it more unique to the story? Anyway, I don't want to get to into it because I saw the convo got heated all ready. I had already typed most of my comments by the time I got to @Silk's post. 

No one needs to respond to my comments -- I won't feel ignored. I don't want to reignite the debate, but I don't want to silence myself either... 

Overall:

So far I keeping thinking the same things -- the concept and plot points work. The language, repeated information, info given too late, info dumps, stereotypes and forced dialogue are still a problem. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...