[OB] Love Triangle Revisited (poll included)

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Let me preface this by saying that I do not think that Shallan and Kaladin should have ended up together in OB but I do think they will end up together in the future. This is also going to be a long post detailing my rationalisation of the love triangle so buckle your seatbelts. Credit to users @SLNC and @Dreamstorm for writing on this topic far more eloquently than I ever could.

Before you dive in I would recommend a quick read of this for in-text evidence (credit to @Ailvara): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing

The love triangle in OB was probably the most frustrated I have been left feeling by any of Brandon's writing to the point where I have barely re-read OB while I have enthusiastically re-read most Cosmere books multiple times. I disagree with the notion that the trope of love triangles is always indicative of lazy or low quality writing; I feel that it can be a very effective narrative driving tool if done well. However, you only need to glance at the locked love triangle discussion thread to see that a large portion of the community was left disappointed with how everything was handled.

One of the things I keep coming back to when trying to rationalise the situation is this: What was the point of the love triangle in the first place?

Brandon is my favourite writer and I feel comfortable saying that his writing has improved consistently over time. Everything from the structure to the prose to the fine details of magic systems and foreshadowing has been dialed up that extra little bit as his writing career has progressed. This pattern is what left me feeling most confused with the love triangle as I felt it was poorly handled (assuming it is a done deal). The narrative purpose of a love triangle should be to drive character growth and development yet I feel that none of the members of the triangle experienced tangible growth and it could even be said that some of the characters regressed (Shallan).

 

Examining the effect of the love triangle on character development:

• Kaladin: The main thing that could be discussed here is how his prejudice against lighteyes was challenged by discovering the hardships that Shallan has faced, thus pushing Kaladin towards overcoming his spiteful attitude towards lighteyes. However, this character arc has been targeted from multiple angles with only the Shallan angle having any romantic implications. Kaladin's deep respect towards Dalinar, his friendship towards Adolin and his comeraderie in the Kholinar wall guard all help in tearing down the walls Kaladin has built up. A romantic angle is completely unnecessary to catalyse this process and would be poor justification for the love triangle. Kaladin's assertion that he never really loved Shallan and that she simply reminded him of Tien comes off as disingenuous to me. Kaladin is an honorable dude and he would not step in the way of a happy relationship, especially between two people he likes. This scene to me felt like Kaladin was trying to suppress his feelings and get on with his duty.

 

• Adolin: He really gets shafted by this entire narrative arc. He is a secondary character that was always meant to be a secondary character. Adolin is as close to a Mary Sue as we have seen from Brandon in my opinion. He is probably the most well rounded and least troubled human on Roshar for storm's sake, and therein lies the issue of developing his character. I personally like Adolin but I have not liked how his story has been handled recently. I thought that his murder of Sadeas might set him down a more interesting path so the lack of consequences so far has been underwhelming to say the least. Moving on to his relationship with Shallan; Adolin has no idea what he is getting himself into. The issue here lies in his identification and interaction with Shallan's personas which I think is putting a band aid on a very messed up situation.

 

• Shallan: I feel like Shallan regressed due to the love triangle arc. A point to realise here is that the personas Shallan constructs are exaggerated aspects of her personality. I can't find it right now but a user here had a great analogy where they said that the 'True Shallan' is the sum of her personas where she has fully integrated them. In this system, Radiant as the shallowest persona has a value of 1, Veil as a more developed persona has a value of 2 and the 'Shallan' persona has a value of 3. The Shallan that we as an audience see is in fact a persona. We have never truly seen the real Shallan. The 'Shallan' persona is denoted fShallan for fake Shallan, not to be confused with feruchemical Shallan. So tShallan= Veil+Radiant+fShallan for a combined score of 6. 
• Brandon has said that Shallan's personas would be seen as a single individual in the cognitive realm which shows that they all herald (hehe) from the same original individual, tShallan. You could write a thesis on Shallan's psyche and someone here probably already has, and I simply do not have the time or willpower to do so myself so I will summarise the implications here; Shallan and Adolin identify the personas as separate individuals which allows Shallan to ignore her psychological issues. Shallan pushes her problems that she can't deal with onto her personas, as seen with Veil's lust for Kaladin. Shallan's willful ignorance of her true feelings could potentially lead to the death of Pattern as Lightweaver oaths are based on truths and self-awareness which Shallan needs a healthy dose of e.g. dismissing her feelings for Kaladin by saying that 'Veil has poor taste in men'/

Conclusion: I admire Brandon's qualities as a writer too much to believe that he would construct the love triangle arc for seemingly no purpose. If someone could explain why the love triangle was written in the first place then I could rest easy. The love triangle did not stimulate appreciable character development and left a foul taste in the mouth of many readers here which begs the question of why it was done in the first place. The most rational explanation I can come up with is that the love triangle is not resolved and Brandon's foreshadowing will have a big payoff.

 

Addressing the fans who are content with how the love triangle has panned out:

I am not trying to personally attack any of the groups I mention here. I am simply sharing my own though process and encouraging others to reflect on their own. There are a large number of fans who were satisfied or indifferent to the romance in OB so I will attempt to persuade you below. These groups are:

• Non Romance fans: Some readers do not care for romance arcs in their fantasy books. I personally believe that romance is an integral part of storytelling. Many say that literature is the exploration of the human experience, and the human experience is incomplete without that spark of intimacy that romance provides. Sure, there are those who are asexual, but that is not the norm and it could be argued that Jasnah is a good representation of an asexual character. Fantasy as a genre is simply one of many storytelling mediums, a medium where fantastical elements interact with our relatable characters. So while Stormlight Archive is a fantasy series, it is the characters in the series who we fall in love with as fans. A good character has flaws and experiences challenges which resonate with the audience on a profound level. Romance is a natural part of life that helps ground characters in reality, thus improving the quality of storytelling. 

 

• Adolin fans: I did not like Adolin very much at first, but he has really grown on me and has become one of my more liked characters. Many Adolin fans want the best for Adolin's character, which they equate to a happy relationship with Shallan. I would argue that Adolin is getting screwed over by his marriage as he does not know Shallan nearly as well as he thinks he does. He does not know that she killed her parents and does not know the depths to which she is broken. Neither he nor Kaladin know of Shallan's dangerous involvement with the Ghostbloods which may come back to bite her. I want Adolin to get a happy ending as much as anyone but I simply don't see it happening through his relationship with Shallan. 

 

• Those who think Kaladin should remain single: I don't see Kaladin as an asexual character or a character that will always place duty over love. Kaladin's lack of romantic involvement stems from his own lack of self-worth. He blames himself for the loss of Tien and his men which is the likely reason why his scars have not healed as they are marks of his failure. I absolutely agree that Kaladin is not in the right place mentally for a relationship right now, but this is a temporary state of affairs until he manages to forgive himself in his pursuit of the fourth windrunner oath.

[IntentAwesome]

At the risk of sticking my hand in the flame, I’m gonna comment on this. First, I was rooting for Shaladin and was dissatisfied with the triangle, but after reading a couple of times, I’ve decided to reserve judgement until I see the rest of it play out.

My biggest issue is that I felt that Shallan and Kaladin had a genuine, emotional connection in WoR, and I felt that the connection was really reduced into nothing more than a physical attraction. I have since realized that this may be Brandon intentionally doing this, because Shallan is trying to convince herself that she feels nothing more than physical attraction to Kaladin. 

However, I think that the moment when Kaladin decides to move on is one of the most genuine moments in the whole triangle. I think Kaladin realized his attraction to her is mostly based on her helping him to feel better and cope with his depression, but also realizing that’s not a good basis for a healthy romantic relationship. 

Shallan, on the other hand, because she has convinced herself she was only physically attracted to Kal, has yet to deal with her emotional connection to him. I’m going to wait and see how that unfolds. I don’t think she’ll get there until she more fully resolves her personas, if she ever gets to that point. But I do also think her choice to be with Adolin was a serious one. And choice is an important aspect too. Whether or not she can stick with it remains to be seen.

TL;DR I think Kaladin is over Shallan. I think Shallan will likely need to deal with her emotions for Kaladin at some point, but will likely also stick with Adolin. I don’t see the triangle going much further. 

For the record, I no longer ship Shaladin and I’m fairly indifferent to Shadolin. I’m really mostly interested in seeing Kaladin and Adolin as friends, so anything that messes with that will probably make me unhappy. 

[goody153]

Personally i have no strong like or dislike over the love triangle of Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin. It simply was there and i was just glad Sanderson didn't turn it into a fullblown annoying lovetriangle that i often read from paranormal/urban/romance/erotica/teen novels.

I'm completely indifferent with their matter. Admittedly tho the way it was written the Kaladin-Shallan thing felt really temporary at least for Kaladin annnd i am not impressed with Shallan's character so i didn't really have strong feelings either way she ends up with.

2 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Non Romance fans: Some readers do not care for romance arcs in their fantasy books. I personally believe that romance is an integral part of storytelling. Many say that literature is the exploration of the human experience, and the human experience is incomplete without that spark of intimacy that romance provides. Sure, there are those who are asexual, but that is not the norm and it could be argued that Jasnah is a good representation of an asexual character. Fantasy as a genre is simply one of many storytelling mediums, a medium where fantastical elements interact with our relatable characters. So while Stormlight Archive is a fantasy series, it is the characters in the series who we fall in love with as fans. A good character has flaws and experiences challenges which resonate with the audience on a profound level. Romance is a natural part of life that helps ground characters in reality, thus improving the quality of storytelling. 

While Romance is indeed a part of natural life and is a powerful tool for storytelling it does not mean it's completely necessary. If we learned anything from Stormlight Archives is that Syl basically does the job of romantic partner ALOT better than actual romantic partners from other novels without actually being one(Syl-Kaladin is the like one of the most intimate relationship i've read). And that's one example then we also have from Warbreaker

Spoiler

Siri and Susebron which so far is the best written pair by Sanderson

and Dalinar/Navani who basically doesn't need to exist but actually compliments the characters really well.

I have read fantasy novel series but i've also encountered series and books who truly never felt they needed the romantic spark like Travelers Gate Trilogy or Malazan but still did well by themselves regardless. Some romances can be complimentary(this are the great ones who are not exactly pivotal or too important) but some if not written well can also be detrimental to the overall quality. 

I guess what i have to say is that i agree that romance can be great but is not necessary all the time but even when unnecessary it can be complimentary to the story if it is done right. So yeah like the Jasnah/Kaladin shipping regardless if it happens or not i only care about it Sanderson writting it well(so if it happens like after 7 books of buildup it's fine so long as it's done well). 

Edited June 26, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not really interested in the romantic aspect of it, but I am heavily invested in individual character development, and after a second read of Oathbringer, I am far far more happy with the end here as "resolved." 

The Chasm scene, the thing that has cemented these two characters in so many people's minds was indeed genuine emotion, and it was emotion that was doomed to break these two characters if they fed off of each other. 

Shallan is a train wreck who hides from her problems by creating masks. She puts forward a false face. Kaladin did not understand this, at all. He saw someone as damaged as he was, and didn't realize that the smile that he thought was so storming beautiful was the culmination of her issues, not a solution. 

In contrast, open and accepting Adolin doesn't have to have seen "who she really is" to accept her as she is. Someone who is willing to accept her unconditionally is exactly what she needs for growth if she's going to be with anyone at all, which in my opinion she shouldn't until she's figured that out. 

Hell, out of the three of them the only one who seems to have hit a point that they're ready for a relationship is Adolin, and that only because of his feelings for Shallan. 

Most important though, is that Shallan made a choice, and Kaladin had a realization, both of which split the hull of this ship. 

Shallan picked the person who told her the masks don't matter over the person attracted to the mask. Kaladin realized his attraction was based off of a lessening of his own depression (which he'd get from any lightweaver Ala the "spiritual sustenance" role that the in world Words of Radiance gives them) and not Shallan herself. 

I don't think Shallan and Adolin are going to have a straightforward and simple happily ever after, but whether they stay together or not is irrelevant. Kaladin isn't going to stomp on a friends toes like that, especially for someone who his attraction to was based on genuine feelings yes, but feelings that are not tied to her as a person. 

Edit: also, just to make it clear, due to the nature of this topic in the past, I'm not interested in debating it. I've stated my opinion and I'm leaving it at that. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Calderis

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think Shallan and Adolin are going to have a straightforward and simple happily ever after, but whether they stay together or not is irrelevant. Kaladin isn't going to stomp on a friends toes like that, especially for someone who his attraction to was based on genuine feelings yes, but feelings that are not tied to her as a person. 

Yeah, it would be completely in character for Kaladin to steer well clear of pursuing Shallan when she is already paired off with Adolin. The emotional maturity he demonstrated in the aforementioned scene made me respect him even more as a character while I was frustrated with how Shallan dealt with it. I do think that his feelings for Shallan are tied to her as a person as he enjoys the banter and arguments that they share and shows an interest in her scholarly pursuits (the corrupted shame spren in Kholinar comes to mind).

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In contrast, open and accepting Adolin doesn't have to have seen "who she really is" to accept her as she is. Someone who is willing to accept her unconditionally is exactly what she needs for growth if she's going to be with anyone at all, which in my opinion she shouldn't until she's figured that out. 

Hell, out of the three of them the only one who seems to have hit a point that they're ready for a relationship is Adolin, and that only because of his feelings for Shallan. 

Yeah, Adolin is the only one of the three who is mentally stable and in any position for a relationship. I think Shadolin makes sense given where our characters are in their stories, there's just no way you can have a healthy, functional relationship with not one but two emotionally and mentally unwell characters. Someone on the site had a great analogy where they said that Adolin is Shallan's Tylenol, allowing her to function and come to terms with her past which will cause character development. However, what Shallan needs is surgery which would be the integration of her personas. As Brandon has said, she is on the right track to recovery in Hoid's opinion but she still has a long ways left. Perhaps upon integrating her personas she may have to come to terms with how she romantically views Adolin and Shallan respectively.

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Chasm scene, the thing that has cemented these two characters in so many people's minds was indeed genuine emotion, and it was emotion that was doomed to break these two characters if they fed off of each other. 

Agreed. You can't found a relationship on an unstable foundation. They both need to work through their respective issues before either of them is ready for a relationship, hence my hesitancy with Shallan marrying Adolin.

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: also, just to make it clear, due to the nature of this topic in the past, I'm not interested in debating it. I've stated my opinion and I'm leaving it at that. 

Thanks for contributing in spite of it. I've heard these threads can devolve into personal attacks but I just started this one to hear people discuss their perspectives rationally and to start a discourse on something I felt the need to talk about.

[wotbibliophile]

@The Harlem Worldhoppers Thanks for sharing. I love to read thoughts on this subject. I actually disagree that Kaladin is not in the right place mentally for a relationship. I side with Syl. Syl is very pushy to get Kaladin in a relationship right away. I think of Kaladin as very mature, supportive, and compassionate. I think he would make a great partner.

@IntentAwesome Kaladin and Adolin remaining friends is a priority for me, too. I think their relationship is safe. Both seem willing to work to keep their relationship strong.

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Shallan is a train wreck who hides from her problems by creating masks. She puts forward a false face.

I strongly agree with this. This is one of the main reasons I voted extremely dissatisfied. Shallan lies all the time about everything. I do not trust her at all. I believe she shows Adolin a false face. That has been repeated multiple times in her POV. That I am willing to believe. I also believe Shallan is really crazy. I cannot believe she is in the right place mentally for a relationship.

I have seen great progress in Kaladin dealing with his depression. Recognizing when he is in a downward spiral and working to get out of it.

Contrast with Shallan who is much worse off mentally in OB than in WOR and is working hard at not working on her mental issues.

One example of Shallan's crazy (and something that drives me up the wall). Shallan can somehow say with a straight face that she does not have feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil does. This is when she is being "honest" with Adolin. Veil is not real. There is no Veil. But for some reason Shallan thinks it is time to get married while simultaneously pretending she is an imaginary person and pretending this pretend person has pretend feelings for another man. She's crazy. In what universe is this a satisfying romantic conclusion? I say conclusion because I do believe Sanderson meant for this to be the conclusion of the triangle arc, but I did not find it at all satisfying.

I am extremely frustrated at all of Shallan's lies and purposeful omissions and manipulations that for some reason should add up to a healthy relationship.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

14 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I am extremely frustrated at all of Shallan's lies and purposeful omissions and manipulations that for some reason should add up to a healthy relationship.

It won't lead to a healthy long term relationship in my opinion. You can't build a relationship on a foundation of lies and Adolin has no idea that Shallan killed her own parents and is involved with the Ghostbloods. The relationship is a temporary solution to some of Shallan's long term issues.

16 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I actually disagree that Kaladin is not in the right place mentally for a relationship. I side with Syl. Syl is very pushy to get Kaladin in a relationship right away. I think of Kaladin as very mature, supportive, and compassionate. I think he would make a great partner.

In my opinion Kaladin is very close but not quite there yet. The scars on his head haven't healed due to his negative self perception. So long as he hasn't forgiven himself for Tien's death he will still bear those scars, both physically and emotionally. I think Kaladin will have to accept his previous failure to be able to swear the fourth windrunner oath and we know that Kaladin is already close to swearing it so he is also close to being ready for a relationship. 

Kaladin's mental wellbeing is on an upward trend and Syl is largely to thank for this. Syl and Kaladin share a strong bond as shown by how concerned they get for each other. Meanwhile, Shallan's bond with Pattern appears to be deteriorating and she may kill him (again) at the rate she is going. This is because by lying to herself she is breaking the lightrunner oaths based on truths and self awareness. Shallan has yet to hit the nadir of her current storyline in my opinion.

[wotbibliophile]

23 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Shallan has yet to hit the nadir of her current storyline in my opinion.

I have had this thought as well. Shallan did so little to address her actual issues that I have to think that is something that is still forthcoming. I also think it will take some kind of disaster for Shallan to finally want to address her issues. The biggest issue being her mother.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

I was kinda disappointed until you realize Kaladin was okay with it.

That combined with Syl liking his rock at the end made me think it was what Kal needed.  Shallan still has some things to work out.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Journey Before Pancakes

[galendo]

I think you need a "just glad it's over" option.

I have nothing against romance in books, love triangle or otherwise (well, okay, I think love triangles are frequently overused, though not necessarily bad).  Heck, one of my favorite pre-1900's books is Pride and Prejudice, which is heavily romance-based and features at least one love triangle and possibly as many as three, depending on how you count.  But here's the thing.  They have to be done well.

At the end of WoK/beginning of WoR I was open for anything.  Shallan and Kaladin?  Sure, why not -- they're both Radiants.  Shallan and Adolin?  Sounds good to me too.  I could've easily gone either way, or possibly some third direction instead.

But once the characters started interacting?  It was terrible.  Well, Adolin and Shallan were great, but Shallan and Kaladin were just...their scenes were just terrible.  Like, Shallan steals Kaladins boots because why?  That scene served basically no purpose except to guarantee that the characters get off on the wrong foot.  You've got two characters acting out-of-character, Shallan because she's stealing someone's boots (yes, she was willing to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, but it's not like she'd been portrayed as a kleptomaniac) and Kaladin because he just gave in to the lighteyed princess with a smile.  That's not exactly how he dealt with Jasnah, an actual lighteyed princess, or really any other lighteyes ever for that matter.  And the chasm scene?  I know other people seem to like it, God alone knows why, but the way the plot has to twist to get Kaladin and Shallan together is teeth-grindingly bad, as is the character interaction IMHO.  Though I will concede that everything gets much better once the chasmfiend fight begins.

I've hated the love triangle almost since the beginning, and I'm glad it's over with.  Since early in WoR I've been on the Shallan-Adolin side, mainly because the Shallan-Kaladin scenes were...less than stellar, in my opinion.  But honestly I'm just glad it's finished.  The triangle should probably never even have existed in the first place, but at least we needn't suffer it in the future.

[Andy92]

I was a bit more disappointed with it personally. We never saw Shallan and Adolin progress too far beyond the stage of some fun flirting and a few more serious moments. Adolin basically had to probe Shallan into publicly choosing him. I’m not too convinced the two characters truly love each other. If they hadn’t been betrothed, they wouldn’t have fallen for each other naturally. 

[Toaster Retribution]

I am firmly one of those who don’t care all that much. I think Shallans romance and relationship issues are far from over though. Sooner or later Adolin will find out what he has gotten himself into.

[wotbibliophile]

@galendo I agree the boots scene was out of character for both of them. I think of Sanderson's humor as hit and miss. So I think this scene was supposed to be funny and for me was just a big miss. However, I 100% loved the chasm sequence. I have wanted to see radiants interacting since the first book and I still think that chasm scene is the only time we get that in any of the three books. I wanted conversation, emotion, honesty and that chasm scene delivered. Granted they still didn't admit to each other that they were surgebinders and that was frustrating, but the whole moving from disdain to respect aspect made it worth it.

By the end of WOR I thought Shallan could end up with Adolin or Kaladin. I wanted to see it done well. In WOR, I thought Shallan and Adolin were cute together, but I preferred Shallan and Kaladin. I still thought Shallan and Adolin could be good together if their relationship had more depth.

I agree with @Andy92 that they never seemed to get beyond flirty. Also, Shallan had a constant refrain of needing to manipulate Adolin and I never thought that was a good foundation for a relationship. I expected if they were to get together that Shallan would have to show she trusted Adolin and stop manipulating him. Telling Adolin about Veil and Radiant was a good thing and was the first time their relationship had any depth at all. But I saw this as a step in the right direction not a "and now its time to get married."

[Rainier]

I'm still convinced that Shallan is lying to herself, and pretending to be the perfect wife for Adolin. This is going to explode back on her at some point, when she's either forced to acknowledge that she's killing Pattern, or she decides to ignore it and let him die by continuing to lie. 

On 6/26/2018 at 0:47 AM, Calderis said:

Hell, out of the three of them the only one who seems to have hit a point that they're ready for a relationship is Adolin, and that only because of his feelings for Shallan. 

And what feeling is that? Relief? Adolin doesn't love Shallan, he loves the fact that he doesn't have to choose for himself. He loves the fact that it's all arranged for him, and that all he has to do is walk the path laid out in front of him. Adolin, of the three, seems to be the one with the least amount of emotional attachment, period. Sure, he's ready for a relationship, but that's because he's tired of courting, tired of the expectations, and intimidated by the reality of choosing for himself who he wants to be with.

I'm very disappointed with this arc, and will remain so until at least the next book, and it's possible I'll be very disappointed with the whole arc even when we see the aftermath. Generally I think it was poorly done, and it really stains my perception of WoR and most of OB. If there was a payoff, it could have been worth it, but as it is, there's a lot of misdirection that feels more like sloppy writing than well-crafted subversion. The fact that we're paused at the peak in the story is even worth, because now not only do I not understand the characters and don't believe in their motives, I can't see how they react. Depending on the actual resolution it could be recovered, but if we don't get anything more, I'll maintain that it was poorly done, a waste of words, and a net negative on the series as a whole.

[Calderis]

@Rainier like I said, I'm not going to debate it. Needless to say I see Adolin very differently than you do. 

[king of nowhere]

I am not against romance, but I am against triangles. I don't like them for a long list of reasons that could be basically summed up as them hampering the narrative. And while romance is an important part of life, at times of great strife it is generally put in the background as people are somewhat busy.

I voted on extremely satisfied with how it was handled because it never became a bother. Shallan didn't suddenly become stupid and didn't suddenly jeopardize the world for the sake of her love interest, adolin and kaladin didn't develop problems, and all the above things that did not happen did not derail the narrative or provide obstacles that would feel contrived and would make me want to smack the characters. I especially dislike "love makes people stupid"  category of tropes, and they are almost always the consequence of triangles. I generally loathe people acting stupid, especially when there is a lot at stake, and being in love is not a good excuse.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I am not against romance, but I am against triangles. I don't like them for a long list of reasons that could be basically summed up as them hampering the narrative. And while romance is an important part of life, at times of great strife it is generally put in the background as people are somewhat busy.

Yeah, I've seen some very poorly handled love triangles which really did not add anything to the story and spat in the face of character development up to that point. How many dumb love triangles could be solved by two people just having a conversation?

I am not against love triangles out of principle as they can be satisfactory if done well but this is not the case most of the time in my experience. There's some truth behind romance being put on the back burner in times of great strife, but war can progress at a turgid pace and there can be a lot of downtime between major conflicts. After all, there is a one year time skip to the start of SA 4 so there can't be too much happening in between.

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I especially dislike "love makes people stupid"  category of tropes, and they are almost always the consequence of triangles. I generally loathe people acting stupid, especially when there is a lot at stake, and being in love is not a good excuse.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Well developed characters lose every ounce of nuance when you subject them to this trope, and for this reason I was cringing a bit like Brightness Teshav with that cheesy dialogue between Adolin and Shallan pre-wedding.

I suppose my main gripe with the love triangle is why it was made in the first place. I would have been completely fine if Adolin and Shallan had been paired up with there being no sexual tension between Shallan and Kaladin or vice versa. If Adolin and Shallan we're fated to marry one another why would so much screen time be Invested into the love triangle arc. I'm glad it's over like many here but I just can't reason out why it was written like that in the first place.

If someone could explain that to me then I would be more satisfied with Oathbringer in it's entirety.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

37 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

If someone could explain that to me then I would be more satisfied with Oathbringer in it's entirety

I think it was to highlight the emotional state of Kaladin and Shallan (especially Shallan's personalities), along with a few other reasons.

Kaladin was very unsure how he felt about lighteyes in general.  The chasm sequence was a great opportunity for Kaladin to see that lighteyes could experience bad things too.  I think it was a big part of seeing that lighteyes weren't all bad, which made it easier for him to swear the third oath.  It also let Brandon use Kaladin's emotions to draw parallels between Shallan and Tien (hinting that Tien was becoming a lightweaver).

On the Shallan side it just seemed like more exploration into her multiple personalities and the ramifications of that.

Ideally it's setting Kaladin up to be close friends with Shallan and Adolin, but I'm not sure if Shallan is ready for that yet.  Hopefully though, I do think they all get along really well in pairs. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Thanks for the response @Journey Before Pancakes. 

11 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

The chasm sequence was a great opportunity for Kaladin to see that lighteyes could experience bad things too.  I think it was a big part of seeing that lighteyes weren't all bad, which made it easier for him to swear the third oath.

I just don't see why a romantic angle was necessary to explore this. Kaladin's respectful soldier/commander relationship with Dalinar achieves the same thing and his comeraderie with the light eyes in the Kholinar wall guard helped Kaladin overcome some of his prejudice. 

Shallan and Kaladin could have been introduced as platonic friends and the chasm sequence could have had the same impact in regards to Kaladin realising the hardship that some lighteyes have gone through. 

15 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

It also let Brandon use Kaladin's emotions to draw parallels between Shallan and Tien (hinting that Tien was becoming a lightweaver).

I think the Tien as a proto lightweaver theories had been around for a while before Oathbringer. I agree that it does something important which is that it highlights Tien's death as a cornerstone of Kaladin's personality. 

17 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

On the Shallan side it just seemed like more exploration into her multiple personalities and the ramifications of that.

I suppose Shallan's feelings for Kaladin did push her towards further compartmentalisation and it did show the negative consequences of that. Shallan has still not confronted her feelings around Kaladin killing Helaran and she has dismissed 'Veil's' lust for Kaladin as having bad taste in men. Shallan's bullying of Kaladin throughout OB was completely uncalled for and to me either indicates that she is (a) letting subconscious resentment towards Kaladin for killing Helaran boil over or (b) attempting to smother her feelings for Kaladin and justify choosing Adolin by demonising Kaladin from her perspective.

You made some good points but I'm still not convinced that a love triangle was necessary as many of these things could have been accomplished without the need for a romance angle. Shallan's platonic friendship with Kaladin would still cause her to compartmentalise her feelings surrounding Helaran's death and Kaladin's stigma towards lighteyes has been navigated from various sources such as Dalinar and the Kholinar wall guard.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

 After all, there is a one year time skip to the start of SA 4 so there can't be too much happening in between.

I've never heard that before. When did brandon said that? Can you link?

44 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

@Journey Before Pancakes

 

You made some good points but I'm still not convinced that a love triangle was necessary as many of these things could have been accomplished without the need for a romance angle. Shallan's platonic friendship with Kaladin would still cause her to compartmentalise her feelings surrounding Helaran's death and Kaladin's stigma towards lighteyes has been navigated from various sources such as Dalinar and the Kholinar wall guard.

Maybe there was no strict need for it, but it certainly made a lot of sense for it to happen.

Kaladin hasn't been close to a girl his age, much less an attractive one, in years. And they also share some deep connection, while in the middle of an adrenaline rush. It's natural that he would get a crush on her. If I were to live a similar experience, I would also get a crush on the girl, unless she's someone i'd really loathe. It would pass in a few weeks  or months at most if there was nothing stronger behind it.

As for shallan, she also hasn't been around much. this is, like, the third boy of close age that she can spend time with. I think in the past the genders were kept much more closeted because that way they would never figure out how crappy was their arranged pairing. They liked each other because they literally knew nothing better. We should not underestimate this factor in many characters who had closeted youths. And kaladin has a lot of charisma. He leads people because he makes people want to follow him, and Shallan is not immune. Again, adrenaline helps. So it's also reasonable that she'd develop feelings for him, and that those feelings would wane with time in front of the lack of a more substantial connection.

 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

@king of nowhereHere you go.

Mrrobot112

Eshonai is flashback character [for Stormlight Four], but she is dead in the present. So...who will be main protagonists in the main timeline? Hope for Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin will be as important as they were in first three books)

Brandon Sanderson

Eshonai will still be the flashback character, and Venli will take a larger role to provide counterpart past/present. But, as always, you will find a focus on all five protagonists from this sequence. (I view them as Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth.)

Mrrobot112

I heard it would be one year time gap(in world) between books 3 and 4, which make me think about structure of the book.Does it mean, something important could happen during this year, and then it will be explained in some form(maybe another set of flashbacks)?If so, it's hard for me to visualise the book structure: main timeline, Eshonai's flashbaks and another set of flashbacks for past year?Seems like a mess. Or it will be like Mistborn era 1 time gaps between each book?Main narrative just continues without getting stuck with one-year break, and nothing important happens off-screen. It will be nice to get some qualification from you, if possible.Cause now I'm a bit confused.

Brandon Sanderson

Right now, I've got it like Mistborn--we're checking back in a year, as I need to give some things time to progress in world. We'll see when I actually write it, though.

Mrrobot112

Thanks! But please, don't do things like Alien 3-movie, if you know what I mean. It's when they did a time gap between two movies and at the beginning of the new movie they told you that your favorite character died during the time gap, deal with it. This is the worst thing ever and a reason I'm always a bit skeptical about time gaps in fiction. Just hate when things like that happen off-screen.Just don't do it with your books, please.At least can you promise you wouldn't?And what do you think about this trope in general?

Brandon Sanderson

I actually want to write an essay about that very trope (I call it the Newt Principle.) You might see it on my website at some point.

Things will happen during the gap, I'm afraid. You might like it, you might not, but I do plan some of the flashbacks in the second half to help cover this time--so you'll see it eventually. If it helps, I'm pretty sure I understand the dangers of the Newt Principle, and how to not fall into that trap.

source

 

I agree with you reasoning that it is perfectly natural for two young adults to become attracted to one another, particularly in such extreme circumstances. However, this does not change the fact that a large part of OB was spent teasing their romance to no avail when it was already a large book that couldn't find space for something as simple as the Kholins reacting to working alongside Szeth. 

[wotbibliophile]

@king of nowhere It is perfectly reasonable that an adrenaline rush leads to a crush and in time that crush wanes. I was disappointed that it was never addressed. Syl strongly encourages Kaladin to pursue Shallan and he protests that she is engaged. Shallan reminds herself that she is engaged and she and Kaladin never have a conversation. The whole crush seemed hidden, brushed over, and most of all unresolved. I personally did not find it satisfying that Sanderson ended OB with Shallan and Adolin's marriage. It left me with the impression that the whole thing was never going to be addressed at all. I guess like @The Harlem Worldhoppers I think my emotional investment was wasted and worthless. 

[Singer]

I don't have a dog in this fight, I didn't have a preference for who ended up together, and though I like a little romance in my books I don't like when it takes over the whole narrative. I am usually not much into love triangles, but some of the triangle subversion in OB really worked for me.

Even if love triangles are a cliche, they happen in real life. Shallan took her sweet time to make a decision that will have some lasting consequences and I can't say I blame her for that. Kaladin realizing he wasn't actually in love with her makes sense to me, he was rejected but it didn't sting like he thought it would.

Sidebar: Kaladin's attitude in WoR make perfect sense to me because it was a lot like how I felt when I was depressed. I really resented people who were happy and in love and I took it as a personal affront that they would subject me to their PDA and crap. He was more jealous that they were happy at all than he was jealous about Shallan specifically.

All of this stuff may be annoying, but I think there is some reflection if realism in that. I've read books where I am practically tearing my hair out because the characters won't just get along, and I realize it is the same feeling I get when I watch the news. If characters are annoying sometimes, I think that means the author is doing something right.

That being said, I am holding my judgement. I don't think this will take anyone by surprise, but there is A LOT to a relationship after marriage, Shallodin's issues are far from over, they are just starting! I really want to see how these characters work together in the future, and the end results yet to come will really determine how I feel about the love triangle. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

11 hours ago, Singer said:

Even if love triangles are a cliche, they happen in real life. Shallan took her sweet time to make a decision that will have some lasting consequences and I can't say I blame her for that. Kaladin realizing he wasn't actually in love with her makes sense to me, he was rejected but it didn't sting like he thought it would.

Very true. People get annoyed about clichés but forget that they are steeped in realism. I'm sure many readers here have been involved in love triangles or witnessed love triangles unfold in real life so I don't think people should be so quick to trash on them, although they are done poorly more often than they are done well in my opinion.

11 hours ago, Singer said:

I don't have a dog in this fight, I didn't have a preference for who ended up together, and though I like a little romance in my books I don't like when it takes over the whole narrative. I am usually not much into love triangles, but some of the triangle subversion in OB really worked for me.

 

Yep, this is pretty much my feelings for romance in the books summed up. I think it's a little unrealistic to have a cast completely full of asexual characters or characters who prioritise everything from saving the world to doing the laundry ahead of romance (looking at you Jasnah). I feel like characters are a bit more believable when they have some romantic inclinations but I get frustrated if these inclinations come to dominate their narrative arc or when the head over heels in love trope is used to diminish a characters worth.

11 hours ago, Singer said:

That being said, I am holding my judgement. I don't think this will take anyone by surprise, but there is A LOT to a relationship after marriage, Shallodin's issues are far from over, they are just starting! I really want to see how these characters work together in the future, and the end results yet to come will really determine how I feel about the love triangle. 

Oh I wholeheartedly agree that they have a lot of things to work through. Part of the reason I started this thread was that I felt like too many readers were dismissing the potential future issues in their relationship simply because they were married. Plenty of people in real life get married as a Hail Mary  thinking it will magically wash away their problems, only for it to lead to issues down the line. I personally believe that Shallan will have to make s choice between saving her bond with Pattern or continuing to ignore the truths she has sworn and living a simple, happy life with Adolin.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Very true. People get annoyed about clichés but forget that they are steeped in realism. I'm sure many readers here have been involved in love triangles or witnessed love triangles unfold in real life so I don't think people should be so quick to trash on them, although they are done poorly more often than they are done well in my opinion.

To be fair, they're usually done far more poorly in reality. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Calderis