Popular Post NutiketAiel Posted March 19, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Humans existed before the Shattering of Adonalsium. We know this. Besides the existence of the original Shardholders that we know to have been human (Ati and Leras) and Hoid themselves, we know from Sazed's epigraphs in Hero of Ages that Preservation and Ruin created human life on Scadrial based on a form they had seen elsewhere. So, human life existed before Adonalsium was Shattered into Shards. This is established. But what about sapient races other than humans? Besides Adonalsium itself (most likely a singular being), every sapient species we have seen besides humans was either created from or by humans in some way (Kandra, Koloss, Elantrians, Nightblood), or are themselves splinters of a shard of Adonalsium (Seons, Skaze, Returned, most Spren), or splinters of Adonalsium directly (other Spren). Except on Roshar. The Listeners (or Parshendi if you prefer) are the first example we've seen of a sapient species that has no obvious connection to humanity or to a shard. Words of Radiance gives us much insight into the Listeners. I have transcribed a few choice bits: Eshonai preferred a shield. It felt more like facing the Rider straight on. This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather- and he was not one of her people's gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor- a spren who had chosen to protect the humans instead of the listeners. ... The Rider of Storms was a traitor, yes- but you could not have a traitor who had not originally been a friend. These storms belonged to her people. The listeners were of the storms. Words of Radiance, Interlude 5 (pages 395 and 396 in the hardcover edition). The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, But not to those who know them most dear, before us. 'Tis no surprise we turned away Unto the gods we spent our days And to become their molding clay, they changed us. Listener Song of Secrets, 40th Stanza, epigraph of Chapter 28 of Words of Radiance (page 338 of the hardcover edition). The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth we are, their meat is men. Listener Song of Spren, 9th Stanza, epigraph of Chapter 32 of Words of Radiabce (page 368 of the hardcover edition) Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life, A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. Listener Song of Secrets, Final Stanza, epigraph of Chapter 34 of Words of Radiance (page 385 of the hardcover edition) There's a common thread in all of the quotes I noted above- the idea of the Listeners having been betrayed by the Spren. On the surface, this idea makes no sense. The Spren have been identified by Jasnah and Shallan as being the product of human thought. So, if they were created by human thought, how could it be a betrayal for them to work with the humans? Many, if not all, of the Spren are splinters. We know, from the Word of Brandon, that many Spren are splinters of Honor or Cultivation, or some combination thereof (note). We also know that some are splinters of Adonalsium itself, directly, which he had left on Roshar intentionally (note). Humans are Children of Honor. Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar together. Odium arrived later. What evidence we have points to humans having been created by Honor, or by Honor and Cultivation. Honor and Cultivation are shards, so logically they cannot have existed prior to the Shattering. So, if there were no humans on Roshar prior to the Shattering, why did Adonalsium leave splinters of himself on that planet? I deduce that there was a sentient species already present on Roshar before the creation of humans- the Listeners. Either naturally evolved or, more likely, a creation of Adonalsium. Why do the Listeners see the Spren working with the humans as a betrayal? Because they, the original Spren, worked with the Listeners first. The humans came later, and some of the Spren, whether the older Adonalsium-based ones or the newer Honor/Cultivation based ones, chose to work with the humans instead. Why? Because Honor and Cultivation made the humans "meatier" for the Spren, as opposed to the brothy Listeners. So, when Odium came, and created Spren (or perhaps empowered existing Spren?) with his own splinters, in order to destroy, the Listeners turned to them as their gods. "Our gods were born splinters of a soul, of one who seeks to take control, destroys all the land that he beholds, with spite." Note that several passages confirm that the Listeners turned to their gods after this betrayal; I think this makes it abundantly clear that Odium did not, himself, create the Listeners (in case anyone wanted to argue for that). All that aside, we have this: The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. The above quote is from the second letter in the epigraphs of Part 4 of Words of Radiance. It is, by my interpretation, a clear statement that Roshar (and possibly the other worlds in the Roshar System) were shaped directly by Adonalsium. All this seems indicative to me. I theorize that the Listeners were created by Adonalsium before the Shattering. This raises some interesting questions, if true. Why would Honor and Cultivation choose to create humans on a world that was already inhabited by sapient life? Were the Listeners changed by the arrival of the two shards? What was the relationship between humans and Listeners before the arrival of Odium? In any event, I am certainly interested in hearing thoughts on this theory, and on the questions it raises. 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I agree in broad strokes - the listeners obviously bond with spren like the rest of animal life on Roshar, so whatever created Roshar's animal life would have also created the listeners. Listeners were not originally of Cultivation or Odium as per WoB, and they're not of Honor, which leaves... Adonalsium. Minor quibble on this point: So, when Odium came, and created Spren (or perhaps empowered existing Spren?) with his own splinters, in order to destroy, the Listeners turned to them as their gods. "Our gods were born splinters of a soul, of one who seeks to take control, destroys all the land that he beholds, with spite." Note that several passages confirm that the Listeners turned to their gods after this betrayal; I think this makes it abundantly clear that Odium did not, himself, create the Listeners (in case anyone wanted to argue for that). Rlain says... “It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered. “Who are your gods?” “They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.” I think it's fairly clear the Unmade (the gods of the Parshendi) were once listeners who became shells for Splinters of Odium, or something along those lines. They gave themselves up to get revenge on the humans who stole away their spren I don't think they're really spren, more a fusion of spren and listener. They'd be the equivalent of the Heralds (though Odium likely stripped them of their souls/personality), since there was likely ten of them, and some like Blightwind (Yelig-nar) seem to be mirrors of the ten Essences. Edited March 19, 2014 by Moogle 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think it's fairly clear the Unmade (the gods of the Parshendi) were once listeners who became shells for Splinters of Odium, or something along those lines. They gave themselves up to get revenge on the humans who stole away their spren I don't think they're really spren, more a fusion of spren and listener. They'd be the equivalent of the Heralds (though Odium likely stripped them of their souls/personality), since there was likely ten of them, and some like Blightwind (Yelig-nar) seem to be mirrors of the ten Essences. Hmmm... That's certain a valid interpretation of Rlain's comments and the available data, but I don't think anything we've seen excludes the possibility that they are Spren. I don't think we have enough data to make a judgement yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zionite Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I agree in broad strokes - the listeners obviously bond with spren like the rest of animal life on Roshar, so whatever created Roshar's animal life would have also created the listeners. Listeners were not originally of Cultivation or Odium as per WoB, and they're not of Honor, which leaves... Adonalsium. Minor quibble on this point: Rlain says... I think it's fairly clear the Unmade (the gods of the Parshendi) were once listeners who became shells for Splinters of Odium, or something along those lines. They gave themselves up to get revenge on the humans who stole away their spren I don't think they're really spren, more a fusion of spren and listener. They'd be the equivalent of the Heralds (though Odium likely stripped them of their souls/personality), since there was likely ten of them, and some like Blightwind (Yelig-nar) seem to be mirrors of the ten Essences. I think this theory is pretty accurate.Any ideas on where the UNMADE are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas7886 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 A very out there idea. What if the Listeners were originally created by the force that opposed Adonalsium. This force could have created them as an opposition to the Humans Adonalsium had on Yolen. Because of this Adonalsium put spren of his own on Roshar to influence the Listeners to counter what this opposing force was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Another thing that you might wish to account for or consider - Aimians are a confirmed non-human sentient race, which are significantly different from either humans or Parshendi, and existed on Roshar at least significantly prior to the Silver Kingdoms era (as they had an established government and country at that time). It is plausible that the Aimians are native to Roshar, and if so, it is interesting they are not similar to the Parshendi in appearance. Comparatively, we have no specific timeline for the appearance of the Parshendi. Despite having various visions showing the Desolations directly, there is no sign of the Parshendi or Parshmen at that time, which is odd. No direct mention of them either. If Parshendi are native to Roshar, and evolved there alongside the Aimians, I think these two points should be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Another thing that you might wish to account for or consider - Aimians are a confirmed non-human sentient race, which are significantly different from either humans or Parshendi, and existed on Roshar at least significantly prior to the Silver Kingdoms era (as they had an established government and country at that time). It is plausible that the Aimians are native to Roshar, and if so, it is interesting they are not similar to the Parshendi in appearance. Comparatively, we have no specific timeline for the appearance of the Parshendi. Despite having various visions showing the Desolations directly, there is no sign of the Parshendi or Parshmen at that time, which is odd. No direct mention of them either. If Parshendi are native to Roshar, and evolved there alongside the Aimians, I think these two points should be addressed. The Aimians do need to be accounted for, but we have so little information about them it is difficult to form a working theory. Based on what little we know right now, I believe that the Aimians are not originally native to Roshar. However, that is entirely speculation on my part and I have no data to back this up. It's just a gut feeling. Ultimately, we need more information. However, for the record, we do have one example of a world with three native sentient life forms- Yolen. There are (or were?) three sentient races on Yolen- Humans, Shodel and Dragons. And Yolen was populated before the Shattering. So, if I am wrong in my guess about the Aimians and they are originally native to Roshar, it does not preclude the idea that the Listeners are also pre-Shattering natives of Roshar, since the one pre-Shattering inhabited world we know of had three species on it. So, food for thought I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curiosity Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Q: Are the Parshendi of Odium? A: Not originally.Q: Are the Parshendi of Cultivation? A: Not originally. Q: Are the Parshendi of Honor?A: No This theory is brilliant! Well supported too, especially considering the above information. Yes, the Aimians are somewhat of a mystery, but we can puzzle them out later. P.S. Aimians can change their shape, or at least create writing on their bodies at will. Reminds me of the Returned to some degree (shape determined by Cognitive essence). Also, the ardent interlude (from the WoK, sorry I don't have a copy on me) suggests that they have a larger knowledge of realmatics than the normal person. Source: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/#entry119909 Edited May 30, 2014 by Curiosity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 This theory is brilliant! Well supported too, especially considering the above information. Yes, the Aimians are somewhat of a mystery, but we can puzzle them out later. Why, thank you. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I also agree that the ancestors of Parshendi were likely on Roshar already when Honor and Cultivation arrived. This is probably why the Stormfather calls the Listeners "the Ancient Ones". Good theory, NutiketAiel! I think it's fairly clear the Unmade (the gods of the Parshendi) were once listeners who became shells for Splinters of Odium, or something along those lines. They gave themselves up to get revenge on the humans who stole away their spren I don't think they're really spren, more a fusion of spren and listener. They'd be the equivalent of the Heralds (though Odium likely stripped them of their souls/personality), since there was likely ten of them, and some like Blightwind (Yelig-nar) seem to be mirrors of the ten Essences. I agree with almost all of what you said above, Moogle, except for the bit in red. From the Chicago signing last March, we know that ten is definitely not, definitely not, definitely not, definitely not the number of Unmade: Q: Is the number of the Unmade fixed? A: Yes. Q: Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten? A: Is it ten? No, it's not ten. This makes me wonder whether the Ten Fools refer to actual beings, or if they're simply Vorin myth. Edited May 31, 2014 by skaa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) This makes me wonder whether the Ten Fools refer to actual beings, or if they're simply Vorin myth. Actually, my thought was always that the Ten Fools referred to the Heralds themselves, in a kind of inverse way. I mean, we have these positive aspects of the Heralds that everybody is supposed to emulate. I believe that the attributes of the Ten Fools are the inverse of these properties, told as a cautionary tale in the mythology. Whether the stories of the Ten Fools have a basis in actual actions of the Heralds in the distant past or not, I don't know, but whatever the Vorins think, the Heralds are human, so they must act foolish sometimes. ;-) Let's look at what we know. We have Eshu, who acts knowledgeable about subjects of which he is ignorant in front of experts (or something like that, I don't have the quote in front of me). Sounds to me like the opposite of Battar, who's attributes are Wisdom and Caring, or perhaps Paliah, who is Learned and Giving, or maybe the Guiding aspect of Ishar. Shalash might make the most sense, since pretending to be an expert in front of actual experts is dishonest, and definitely a failed application of creativity. Then we have Cabine, who acts like a child even though he is grown. Sounds like the opposite of Talenel, who is Dependable and Resourceful, or maybe Kalak, the Resolute Builder. It could also be Jezrien, since being childish is kind of the opposite of Protecting and Leading people. These are pure guesses on my part, but I think Shalash and Jezrien make the most sense. Hmmm... if Eshu = Shalash and Cabine = Jezrien, then the book in which we learned about the Fool is also the book dedicated to the Order that follows the corresponding Herald. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we continued to learn the attributes of one Fool in each book. ;-) Edited May 31, 2014 by NutiketAiel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I've been of the secret opinion that the mythos of the Ten Fools revolves around how the Herald's have warped their personalities into 'broken' versions following the centuries after breaking the Oathpact. While the identity of the Heralds may not be known, people met and discovered them in the past, and over the course of those 4500 years a mythology sprang from that seed of truth. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I've been of the secret opinion that the mythos of the Ten Fools revolves around how the Herald's have warped their personalities into 'broken' versions following the centuries after breaking the Oathpact. While the identity of the Heralds may not be known, people met and discovered them in the past, and over the course of those 4500 years a mythology sprang from that seed of truth. Hmmm. Interesting idea. However, if it came from meeting the Heralds who abandonned the pact, that only accounts for 9 fools. What about Taln, who only recently returned to Roshar? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) As stated, I don't believe they are necessarily directly correlated, only that the mythos stemmed from that beginning. Get three or four stories of people who have met Heralds who were broken, the opposite of what they should be, and people would naturally fill in the blanks to extend over all ten. This is in fact what we are doing. Edited June 2, 2014 by Tempus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted June 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 LOL, that's a very good point. It's certainly possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashir Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Interesting theory NutiketAiel! How do you think it ties in with humans and Listeners being able to interbreed? (Horneaters are a human/Parshendi hybrid) https://www.goodreads.com/questions/109379-both-parshendi-and-horneaters-are-able-to 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 An interesting question to consider. I was not aware of this new information about the Listeners having interbred with various Rosharan races. Truthfully, though, I don't think this information has much of an impact on the theory one way or the other. Breeding between different intelligent species is a common enough feature in fantasy and science fiction. The fact that we have not seen it before now in the Cosmere (so far as we know) can probably be attributed to the fact that we have not seen two intelligent humanoid species interacting with each other on the same planet before Roshar. So, the idea of the Listeners interbreeding with Rosharan humans isn't all that surprising. I don't see it as either offering support for or evidence against my theory, though I am interested to hear if others have a different interpretation of the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashir Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Hmm, I think it could prove a problem for the part of your theory which claims that the Listeners have no obvious connection to humanity; the Listeners' ability to interbreed with them is definitely a connection! If we accept your main point that the Listeners predated humans on Roshar, then it seems more likely that they were a creation of Adonalsium than naturally evolved lifeforms, as Adonalsium would have been able to create Listeners that are genetically similar enough to humans for the two species to be able to interbreed. On a slightly related point: do we know that Honor created all the human societies on Roshar? I seem to remember reading theories that different cultures (specifically the Shin) came from other planets... Edited July 2, 2015 by Ashir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted July 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Adonalsium created the first humans on Yolen (also two other intelligent species, the Shodel and Dragons). We have no idea what process he used to do so. He could have created those humans and the Listeners on Roshar through a process of evolution. In real life, many people who believe in a deity and also accept the theory of evolution believe that their god created life through natural processes. So, the ideas of Adolansium creating the Listeners and them "naturally" evolving are not mutually exclusive. Edited July 2, 2015 by NutiketAiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Even so, the Listeners are too different from other Rosharan lifeforms, holding much more similarity with the "alien" humans. I doubt Adonalsium used controled evolution to create them. Edited July 3, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrestu Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I don't know about Adonalasium and evolution, but I always saw the LIsteners as the natural progression of Rosharan evolution. The carapace armor being a throw-back to the carapace shells of the greatshells, white spines, etc. It's the humans, who HAD to have developed off world since they have no protection against the highstorms, and the Ryshadium and 'normal' Horses (Am I the only one that thinks that the Ryshadium are horses with Spren?) were brought with them. It raises the interesting point that the 'heroes' of the story are the invaders (normal humans), and the Indigenous people (the listeners) are the 'bad guys'. Maybe we've got the story all wrong and have been rooting for the Cortez's and Pizarro's all along! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I'm inclined to agree with Acrestu. If I had to think of a humanoid species that could have evolved in the Rosharan ecosystem, the Listeners, with their ability to bond with Spren and gain carapace and other similar features of Rosharan animal life, would certainly seem to fit the bill. I don't necessarily agree with the idea of humans and "normal" animals being "brought" to Roshar, though. I'm of the opinion that humans were created on Roshar by Honor and/or Cultivation, not relocated there from another world (with the possible exception of the Heralds). We know this has happened before- Preservation and Ruin did it on Scadrial. As for more Earth-like animal and plant species, I'm of the opinion that they evolved naturally in Shinovar. It's a geographically isolated area sheltered from the highstorms. Under those conditions, more earth-like flora and fauna could have evolved naturally. Obviously the difference between the life of Shinovar and the life of the rest of Roshar is of a much greater degree than any diversity caused by geographic isolation on Earth... like, say Australia compared to the Eurasian mainland... but that can be attributed to the intensely different conditions between Shinovar and the rest of Roshar exerting very different evolutionary pressures. So, while on Earth, we can point to parallel evolution between, say, the wolf and the thylacine to fill the same ecological niche, such parallelism would be much rarer on Roshar because the evolutionary pressures of animals and plants in Shinovar are so vastly different from those of the rest of the planet. Which, I hasten to point out, does not necessarily preclude the kind of parallel evolution we see in the Listeners having a humanoid form. Opposable thumbs and tool manipulation are useful in almost any land-based terrestrial environment, storms or no storms. Edited July 23, 2015 by NutiketAiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) Which, I hasten to point out, does not necessarily preclude the kind of parallel evolution we see in the Listeners having a humanoid form. Opposable thumbs and tool manipulation are useful in almost any land-based terrestrial environment, storms or no storms. The problem is that the Listeners are always in humanoid, pseudo-mammal forms, and only some of them have carapace, wich isn't realy a strong link to the crusracean majority. Where did they come from? To say that they evolved from crustaceans or fish and all lifeforms in between or evolutionary "cousins" are extinct is a bit too much to swallow. Especialy when we know that the godlike Adonalsium visited Roshar before, and he shattered on a planet habitated by humans. It is much simplier and logical for them to be his direct creations. Edited July 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutiketAiel Posted July 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just saying that the controlled evolution is possible. Perhaps they are more closely related to the axehounds, who have no carapace but instead a strong, supple kind of in-between feature. But yes, the idea of them simply being directly created by Adonalsium is certainly simpler in many ways. I have no objection to that interpretation of the theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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