[OB] Nightblood’s Extra Oomph

[TheHeadHancho]

It has been mention previously that, for being the most invested object in the Cosmere, 1000 breaths doesn’t seem like a lot of investiture to just be all that is inside Nightblood.

on top of that, Nightblood can do a lot of weird stuff. He can use any type of available investiture to fuel itself, even that which makes up someone’s spirit web, and he appears to have gained a very nice chunk of sentience.

So how did this happen?

My theory is that Shashara’s divine breath as a returned somehow made it into Nightblood. Whether Vasher forced her too, or if that’s just the way she died, I don’t know.

But it seems logical enough to me. Returned are capable of fueling themselves with any investiture beyond breath to keep themselves alive. Also, a splinter of Endowment would give him s big boost in sentience as opposed to Vivenna’s blade (assuming that its awakened).

Tell me what you guys think.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by TheHeadHancho

[Calderis]

The issue I have with this idea always stems back to Shashara surviving its creation. 

Nightblood has been what it is since its creation, and it remembers Shashara as a living person. The reason that Vasher killed her, is because he was scared of more type IVs being made after he watched her wield Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. 

A returned cannot survive without their Divine Breath, and Shashara survived Nightbloods creation. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Calderis

[TheHeadHancho]

It doesn’t necessarily have to be Shashara’s divine breath but some other one somehow collected beforehand. The main idea that I was trying to get across was that Nightblood was imbued with a divine breath.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

3 hours ago, TheHeadHancho said:

It doesn’t necessarily have to be Shashara’s divine breath but some other one somehow collected beforehand. The main idea that I was trying to get across was that Nightblood was imbued with a divine breath.

How would you "collect" a Divine Breath though?

You would basically need a willing Returned who would die to create Nightblood, and give it the command phrase.  The Divine Breath doesn't pass between people like regular Breath.

Given that Vasher somehow got enough Breaths to give his gift to the God Kings, it almost seems like they had an extreme wealth of regular Breaths available to do this experiment.  Using a Divine Breath and sacrificing a Returned seems overkill in the context; and doesn't match how it's been explained.

[Supreme King Z-arc]

Another thing is that nightblood is more invested than even the god king who has been collecting breath for a long time along with his divine breath so a single divine breath wouldn't actually give that much of a superboost.

[Ethan_sedai]

My first thought was "maybe it was 1,000 Divine Breaths?"

But of course, from what I can tell, not only is that impractical, I think it's impossible, too.

[Thrand_Antharo]

Nightblood absorbs investiture, so maybe Shashara just killed one or more returned with him during the war. 

[Fatikis]

On 6/16/2018 at 10:16 AM, TheHeadHancho said:

It has been mention previously that, for being the most invested object in the Cosmere, 1000 breaths doesn’t seem like a lot of investiture to just be all that is inside Nightblood.

on top of that, Nightblood can do a lot of weird stuff. He can use any type of available investiture to fuel itself, even that which makes up someone’s spirit web, and he appears to have gained a very nice chunk of sentience.

So how did this happen?

Many people disagree with me, but I'm fairly certain Nightblood is either Atium or an Atium alloy. This would explain why Nightblood literally ruins all forms of investiture. Nightblood's versatility is very similar to hemalurgy in that it wants to ruin. It does not care about the investiture type it is ruining. Nightblood obliterates on all three levels. If there ever was a weapon to be described as ruinous it would be Nightblood. 

According to Vasher, Shashara used a complex awakening for Steel. Vasher doesn't seem to understand how Nightblood works. Even he agrees it shouldn't have been possible to create Nightblood. I suggest the complex awakening may have been the addition of a foreign material. 

This would also explain why Ati and Nightblood sound so similar.

We know that the 5 scholars had access to other worlds, and that Scadrial was the easiest planet to get to.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Fatikis

[Calderis]

@Fatikis the main reasons that I disagree with that idea are because Vasher explicitly states that Nightblood was made from steel, and atium doesn't look like steel.

20 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

We know that the 5 scholars had access to other worlds, and that Scadrial was the easiest planet to get to.

Scadrial is not the easiest world to get to, that's Roshar. 

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Questioner

Nightblood. He just showed up at the end of The Stormlight Archive--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

--the last one. So, is there a place that's a connection between all of the universes?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is.

Questioner

And it's been reached in The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so I'm guessing you don't know about all of this but there are characters from Elantris that are in Mistborn--

Questioner

Yes. Like Hoid.

Brandon Sanderson

--and all of this stuff. I would say one of the things is that Roshar is a little bit easier to get to than some of the others, but it's not that it has been breached there so much as it's a little bit easier to get to.

Questioner

Yes, I'm assuming it has something to do with the Cognitive Realm but then objects going through the Cognitive Realm is kind of tripping me.

Brandon Sanderson

Hehe… *long pause* There are places in the Cognitive Realm that are somewhat nexus-like, like you're talking about. Yes there are places like that. ...So Roshar might actually be the easiest place to get to in the cosmere, like from planet to planet. Sel is probably the hardest, right now. For a long time Taldain was very hard, but not anymore.

source

That said, Scadrial is one of the easier ones to reach per this WoB, which is also the only one I can find pertaining to any of the five scholars and Scadrial. 

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ARARITA

Has Denth ever been to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Has Denth been to Scadrial. So Scadrial is one of the planets that's easier to get to, in cosmere terms. I will say this: he did not travel the cosmere widely. But Scadrial is one of the easier-- He spent a lot of time on Roshar, and did not travel widely. That's your answer.

source

Now, don't get me wrong here. I actually do think that Ruin's investiture is involved in Nightblood, and is the reason for being what it is, I just don't think the material is at all relevant. Shashara and Vasher were explicitly trying to make a Shardblade with their own magic, and introducing a material from another world twists that. It also makes the idea from the annotthat Yesteel knew the secret to making Nightblood and was willing and ready to make them and arm nations against Hallandren completely impractical. 

I think it has everything to do with the command they chose. I think it was something completely unplanned, and that the scholars themselves were not aware of. It is also something that, due to the visualization portion of giving a command, would be nearly impossible to reproduce with Shashara dead. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Calderis

[Fatikis]

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Fatikis

[Calderis]

You may want to edit out or at least spoiler last sentence for OB stuff. 

15 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I believe they were trying to create a shardblade with their own system, but they found it difficult. Shashara took actions that Vasher was not aware of. Which is why Vasher isn't actually certain how it was made or how it works. Yesteel may know the secrets of using Godmetals.

Yesteel knowing about God metals would not explain this annotation. 

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Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Thinks about How Hallandren Wouldn't Fall

He's wrong here. If he hadn't intervened and taken responsibility, the God King would have died, and another Manywar would have begun. It would have ended with Hallandren in flames, destroyed by the advancing Idrian coalition, who by then would have gained the secret to creating swords like Nightblood from Yesteel, who is hiding in one of the kingdoms across the mountains and who secretly knows what Vasher did to create the sword. He would have brought his kingdom into the conflict. And the world would have burned.

source

Yesteel could give the secret away, and then the Idrians could make it. People with no access to godmetals in any measure. 

[+Extesian]

I think it was a normal successfully awakened blade that Endowment interfered with to super-invest, so it can be sent off to Roshar as a way to fight Odium. Mainly coz I like that idea. 

[Fatikis]

 

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Edited June 26, 2018 by Fatikis

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

Correct me if I'm incorrect, but it appears that spoilers for all books are currently allowed in this forum. 

OB spoilers are only allowed openly in threads tagged with [OB] in the subject line. 

Edit: and Nightbloods color would be the color of the metal he is made from if not for the very corruption that causes him to extrude black smoke. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Calderis

[Fatikis]

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Edited June 26, 2018 by Fatikis

[Journey Before Pancakes]

I don't think he would be Atium.

Although Nightblood is extremely destructive; I don't see any solid evidence he's actually of Ruin.

His command was "destroy evil"; I don't think he needs Ruins influence to explain his destruction at all.  He also does seem to have some sort of "test" for evil; and after passing it he seems like he has no desire to destroy the person.  He also might be a bit too relaxed about what "evil" is; so he wants to destroy basically everything.

I think it's more the case of bad mental intent when awakening than any inherent quality left from the metal used.  From what we know; awakening metal isn't easy.  Awakening a godmetal would have been a really stupid and exceptionally difficult for a first success at metal awakening.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

Hi guys , I have a theory about Nightblood i’d Like to share. I think it makes sense , it’s not based on a WoB Just my own onservations . You guys could probably iron out the finer points and make it into a better theory since I’m sure u know more than I . But I don’t want to offend anybody . Everyone in this group seems pretty open minded . My last group got super offended if  someone suggested anything not sourced from a WoB so I thought I would ask before I throw it out there.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

1 minute ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Hi guys , I have a theory about Nightblood i’d Like to share. I think it makes sense , it’s not based on a WoB Just my own onservations . You guys could probably iron out the finer points and make it into a better theory since I’m sure u know more than I . But I don’t want to offend anybody . Everyone in this group seems pretty open minded . My last group got super offended if  someone suggested anything not sourced from a WoB so I thought I would ask before I throw it out there.

Probably better off to just post it than to ask.

Worst case scenario everyone tears it apart word for word, and you learn a lot in the process.

I play devils advocate here all the time and get corrected by people who know more.  It's a great way to clear up things you aren't sure about with good references to back up why you were wrong.

I'd say go for it, unless you aren't willing to have people tear it apart (you seem like you'd be fine with that though).  Having more ideas only helps to reinforce what we actually are confident about.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

Ok here it is Bio chromatic Breath is not a one for one exchange . Lifeless cost one breath , while the little stickman Vashur made at the begging  of the story cost 25 breaths . Seems retarted right ! Sooo that can’t be the way it was created . 

 

     The only other time we have ever seen magic get out of hand like this is on Scadrial when they blended 2 magic systems together and compounded the Magic’s .  All gloves are off , gold compounding atium compounding , it just rediculous. 

 

We only have one Native magic system on  Nalthis we know of! Bio chroma ..... but we do know of one form of magic that theoretically works anywhere! Hemalurgy !!!  

 

So what if she Spiked a return with Nightblood first ! Then awakened him ?? 

 

Or woulc she have to Awaken him fist then spike a return ! It’s not that

complex of command because Nightblood command was Destroy Evil ! That’s the only words used . I think it’s more of what the awakener is thinking of at the time and how he wants the item to function that complexity comes in ? Anyways what do u think 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

12 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Ok here it is Bio chromatic Breath is not a one for one exchange . Lifeless cost one breath , while the little stickman Vashur made at the begging  of the story cost 25 breaths . Seems retarted right ! Sooo that can’t be the way it was created

I didn't have a problem with that.  The amount of breath required to bring something to life was greatly reduced by how close to a person it is, and what the command is trying to accomplish.

We don't really know what the command for one Breath lifeless is; but it requires them to have a fake blood too; so they're basically human at that point.  It takes more magic to make a rope behave like a person compared to a body complete with a blood substitute.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

4 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

I didn't have a problem with that.  The amount of breath required to bring something to life was greatly reduced by how close to a person it is, and what the command is trying to accomplish.

We don't really know what the command for one Breath lifeless is; but it requires them to have a fake blood too; so they're basically human at that point.  It takes more magic to make a rope behave like a person compared to a body complete with a blood substitute.

I was directing that at you , that was where someone else posted 1000 breaths doesn’t seem like a lot to make Nightblood so devastating . At the time she did it ,she had to have had around 40k to 50 k Breath because she animated metal . 

     Something else I want to touch on briefly , he said night blood is made of Atium , I highly doubt that , Nightblood is 5 to 6 ft long the. The amount of atium that would require is more than can be obtained . I think Nightblood his steel . His. Scabbard is aluminum and that is in wiki somewhere . Funny thing is the WoB that contradict each other saying alumnum will or won’t stop a shardblade . In Oathbringer we see a Fused steal Szeth scabbard and block Nightblood with it. So now we have in book proof that aluminum. Stops shard blades

 

anyways, what do u think about the spike theory I brought up pancakes?? We know divine breath makes u instantly 5th heightening , so what I’m getting at is it possible to awaken a sword with 1000 breaths then compound it by spiking a return for his or her Divine breath ? Or do I just sound crazy ?

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Ok here it is Bio chromatic Breath is not a one for one exchange . Lifeless cost one breath , while the little stickman Vashur made at the begging  of the story cost 25 breaths . Seems retarted right ! Sooo that can’t be the way it was created . 

The One breath command is an achievement only possible due to research, and was a feat developed by the five scholars that caged the face of warfare on Nalthis. It also requires that your target was once a living, breathing, moving animated creature, like a human or Vasher squirrel. 

In most instances, the closer to those requirements, and the closer to human shaped, the cheaper the Awakening will be. Even then, the complexity of the command increases the cost.

The command that Vasher gave that little stock man was incredibly complicated. Avoid detection in a prison that is capable of recognizing and dealing with awakeners, and retrieve a specific key.

As to your idea, there are a couple questions relating to this in the Cosmere Q&A board right now. And the all address the difficulty of Awakening a Hemalurgic spike. I kind of look at it from the opposite direction.

Outside of the inquisitors, no one at the time how hemalurgy functioned. Most didn't know it existed. Three things are needed to make a Hemalurgic spike, the metal, intent to make a Hemalurgic spike, and knowledge of the bindpoints. During the thousand years of experimentation by inquisitors, they discovered nothing of note in hemalurgy. It's far to complex to learn without a starting point. 

I see absolutely no way that The scholars could have used hemalurgy to make Nightblood, this goes right back to what I said about Yesteel earlier in the thread, just at a different target. 

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Fatikis said:

Many people disagree with me, but I'm fairly certain Nightblood is either Atium or an Atium alloy. This would explain why Nightblood literally ruins all forms of investiture. Nightblood's versatility is very similar to hemalurgy in that it wants to ruin. It does not care about the investiture type it is ruining. Nightblood obliterates on all three levels. If there ever was a weapon to be described as ruinous it would be Nightblood. 

According to Vasher, Shashara used a complex awakening for Steel. Vasher doesn't seem to understand how Nightblood works. Even he agrees it shouldn't have been possible to create Nightblood. I suggest the complex awakening may have been the addition of a foreign material. 

This would also explain why Ati and Nightblood sound so similar.

We know that the 5 scholars had access to other worlds, and that Scadrial was the easiest planet to get to.

As Cal said, Vasher explicitly states that Nightblood was steel before hand.

Trying to invest atium with Breath would be nigh-on impossible because atium is solidified investiture already.

Vasher had only been to the Physical Realm of two planets, Roshar and Nalthis.

Vasher ended up killing Shashara because she wanted to mass-produce swords like Nightblood. That means it would need to be made of materials readily available and obtainable, otherwise mass producing wouldn't be a viable option. I don't think Vasher would have killed his wife on the chance that she'd be able to get butt-loads of a metal that can only be obtained on another planet and is rare and supremely expensive even there. I'm not sure there was even enough atium in existence to mass-produce swords like Nightblood.

 

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shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

source

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Brandon Sanderson

Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle

This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities.

Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle.

The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth's sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong's vision as she's drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It's the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result.

It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they'd created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world.

Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He's dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what's going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate.

source

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by RShara

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Outside of the inquisitors, no one at the time how hemalurgy functioned. Most didn't know it existed. Three things are needed to make a Hemalurgic spike, the metal, intent to make a Hemalurgic spike, and knowledge of the bindpoints. During the thousand years of experimentation by inquisitors, they discovered nothing of note in hemalurgy. It's far to complex to learn without a starting poin

Cal you know I love your ideas man but I can think of one other person / entity / Shard that did it ! Autonomy/ Trell figured out a way to use Hemalurgy to spike Paalm with one spike.  Kelsier (we suspect) figured out a way to connect his thread to a new body using Hemalurgy. She was one of the 5 scholars , while it may be improbable , one can’t say it’s impossible! Having said that , Your probably right . I wasn’t looking to be right , I was looking to maybe give u an idea to figure out How she. May have compounded the powers and made Nightblood so powerful. We see Vivienna sword , we know the process has been refined or perfected. Thing is Vivienna sword is no where on the power scale of Nightblood ! And we are speculating , but I think it’s a safe speculation as Vivienna draws her blade with no fear of death ! Of course we don’t know what her command is , it could be “protect me” for all we know . 

     As a general rule in fantasy magic , the greater the cost to self , the more devestatinv the effect. Nightblood cost is enormous so I expect his effects to reflect that . 

 Be that as it may I would love to know what she did , and we may never know!

[Chaos]

@Fatikis See the special OB spoiler policy: 

Specifically: 

For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content.

I can see what was meant but the "all spoilers allowed" is that, can you talk about Oathbringer? Yes. (You couldn't do this in, say, Mistborn.) Restrictions still apply.  I know it's been a while and the spoiler period will be done August 14th. 

I will add an OB Spoiler tag to this topic.