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Robinski - 180604 - AK Dead Horse - Part 2 - 2073 words (LV)


Robinski

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Hi everyone, I hope this finds you well.

Part the second of DH. All the usual stuff, anything you love, everything you hate. Let me have it and I will do my best to make amends :) 

Best, Robinski

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Over all comments:

The voice is good. The mc seems kind of dark and gritty but also kind of Skippy. The pace picked up. It seemed like you trimmed the first chapter a little?

One issue with this section it was that I didn’t quite believe how quickly he seemed to buy in or “trust” these other characters, and his infatuation with the women seemed a little sudden.

Another problem was the transition between the two chapters. The end of 1 implied he got away, so I was pretty surprised to see him in prison. “No, they did not understand at all. I blew sawdust away from my face. “Can I have my money back then?” I smiled ingratiatingly, “Please?” made me think he was about to do some magic that would free him, but in hind sight, I guess he hadn’t had the bones yet, and was commenting on how the way they restrained him would be useless if he had.

As I read:

Veteran of a dozen wars, and he had no need to proclaim it, he had associates to do that. Comma splice. 

The cliques gave each other an honourable Shouldn't it be a since honorable starts with a consonant? 

If a mouse, I could add to my memory, but of what, the patterns of the guards? Interesting – so each animal has different properties. Nice, subtle way to cue me in to this. 

“You know I’ve a debt to pay, and I’m for a thrill as much as the next red-blooded Wenrokman.” I met her brooding gaze. “I think I’d get that sticking by you, Chari. So, what’s the plan, and I’ll think on it?” Not quite following his response here

Did that mean I couldn’t trust her? I'm sure I'd believe it if he did trust her. It doesn’t seem they told each other much.

what’s he in it for? [SC1] I'm a little confused as to why they are talking motives before the job. It seems a little info dumpy, but at the same time, it is a little confusing and not actually dumping clear information. 

“I’m in.”[SC1] A nice line to end the chapter on! It's clear they are embarking on a heist, and I more or less know what is at stake for everyone, particularly with the main character. 

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The first part of this didn't really grab me. It was mainly a listing of prison yard bullies, and this close to the beginning of the story, I want more character building for J, and setting the scene. However I'll agree with @shatteredsmooth that the voice is good.

Things get going around page 9, where C starts being a player. My main problem was I couldn't see why J would trust her. He goes from being cagey that she knows he's a caster to infatuated with her. You could strip the first half of the chapter to a couple sentences about the gangs, and spend the rest of the time building the relationship, since we'll be with these characters for a while.

I'd also like some bigger reason for J to join the gang. Basically he's falling in with whoever offers him a job, but if it is because of infatuation (through a character flaw on J's part?) or because C has dirt on him, that would make it a lot more believable, and also set up some friction inside the crew. Right now it's just the friction with G+J, which is giving me more creeper vibes than any sort of good M/M possibilities. I'm hoping this doesn't just go down the path of "straight man spurns gay man."


pg 9: "If a mouse, I could add to my memory"
--Meaning mice bones aid memory specifically? or something else?
--ok, yes, this seems to be the case, as defined by the owl. Interesting.

pg 9: "another hurried sucking"
--Another magic term? I'd rather just one general term.

pg 10: "In that moment, I thought I would follow C. into the beast’s maw"
--Why this unerring loyalty to C? There doesn't seem to be a strong reason for it besides not getting beaten up, but that wouldn't inspire this sort of attention.

pg 10: "Maybe he thought he had a chance with C. Maybe I would put him straight on that."
--So J is attracted to C then. I didn't get that so much as he saw a useful ally.

pg 11: "Did that mean I couldn’t trust her?"
--I haven't seen any reason J *could* trust her yet. They are in prison, after all.

pg 13: “I’m in.”
--This isn't a big revelation for me. J doesn't have much choice right now, so he's taking whatever job is available.

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I'm very confused by the opening pf this section. I didn't really get from the end of the first one that he'd been captured, and moreover, i thought he was running from extra-legal goons who were going to kill him not toss him in jail? But now he is in jail? And it's co-ed? But not really because Ch is the only woman in there and maybe the guards just got confused when they put her in 'cause she wasn't wearing a skirt? 

 

Why is everyone beating up on him? It didn't seem like from the first chapter that being a caster was somehow taboo or some kind of underclass or something the general populace hated and it doesn't sound like he'd done anything to tick off . I really feel like all of this is coming from nowhere. 

 

"She was no dancing girl" == She's Not Like Other Girls. Must be that whole having skin over her muscles thing, since no one else has been described as having it so far.

Really, though, it is a little strange to me that of the three prison leaders, it is only Ch that gets a physical description at all, and the only one whose skin color is mentioned. The men are described by their deeds or J's impression of their character -- a young hothead, a "war veteran" -- but Ch is "unscarred" with pretty eyes.  

 

"I wasn’t an idiot, as far as I knew." -- Well, he sure is acting like it. I agree with @Mandamon that J"s infatuation is over the top and pretty unbelievable. Is Ch a caster too? Her putting a whammy on him to make him act like that is something I'd believe... 

Honestly, as the scene goes on, J's behavior is getting a little creepy and making me a bit uncomfortable. Ch has so far done very little to show anything more than needing his skills for a job, and maybe a passing interest in quick sex from J, if you want to stretch crass flirting that far, and J is acting like they're soul-destined intended lovers and conceiving of an immediate dislike for any male (that's not worthlessly effeminate like P) that interacts with her... and it's not a good look.  

 

I think I'm going to let @kais handle this rape- and threat-of-rape-as-character-motivation, but I see it. This is my disappointed face. 

 

Over all, I also agree with most of what @Mandamon has said as well. I feel like the talk about the job is where the plot really starts taking shape, and most of the relevant information from the first chapter and first half of this one could be incorporated later on. Starting from the job offer would be stronger than where the story starts currently. I'm still on the fence about the voice. It is, as others have said, very distinct, however I also feel like it's overshadowing some of what's happening. 

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Overall

There's a strong sense of voice, which is good. Unfortunately I'm just not really connecting to it. I don't have any real connection to our protagonist, so a lot that is happening seems...sort of suspended outside reality. No one that has been introduced is particularly well-rounded and I'm not certain really why our protag is so cocky, or what that adds to the mix. I was a bit disappointed to see the allusion to rape, mostly because there are a bajillion other ways his hands could have gotten tough looking, but introducing a rape element into a fantasy without any purpose other than male character building is squicky at best. I don't personally have issues with rape elements in fantasy (there was one originally in Fox before it became YA) but there is definitely a way to handle them that doesn't perpetuate stereotypes and/or isn't harmful to readers. I guess what I'm saying is you don't have to take it out, necessarily, but it could definitely be better integrated. I do like a gritty low fantasy though (maybe high? unsure where the magic is going ATM), so I'm interested to read more for sure

 

On 6/5/2018 at 0:56 PM, Mandamon said:

which is giving me more creeper vibes than any sort of good M/M possibilities. I'm hoping this doesn't just go down the path of "straight man spurns gay man."

I second this

On 6/5/2018 at 6:04 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I second this! 

Thirded!

17 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Really, though, it is a little strange to me that of the three prison leaders, it is only Ch that gets a physical description at all, and the only one whose skin color is mentioned. The men are described by their deeds or J's impression of their character -- a young hothead, a "war veteran" -- but Ch is "unscarred" with pretty eyes.  

I agree with @industrialistDragon completely

 

As I go

- page three: I read East St. as Easy St at first, and it gave a whole different tone to the story that I actually kind of liked

- page four: they get an hourly rubbish collection? Wow

- page six: I know we've been through this chapter before, but I'm not clear on what our protag's main goal is

- the bluecoats just seem really random. I know they've been foreshadowed, but still. They just seem...jarring

- page seven: the line about hands I had to read three times to figure out what it was saying

- mixed gender prison yard? Huh. Okay. Why not?

- page eight: alert alert! Dark skinned person called out. What were the skin tones of everyone else, then? Got to be consistent. Either everyone gets skin tone call outs, or no one does. Otherwise you're othering

- page nine: the 'she's not like other girl's' trope just popped up. 

- Is she the only woman in here? That seems really weird

- page eleven: I'm having a hard time keeping all these names straight, since I'm not entirely certain what is going on other than a very speedy lusty-romance

- I'm not particularly motivated about this escape/heist that is being planned. 

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Thank you @shatteredsmooth for your comments. Seems like I reverted to some old bad habits in this section (not that you would know that). I'm just tearing it up now.

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

The voice is good. The mc seems kind of dark and gritty but also kind of Skippy. The pace picked up. It seemed like you trimmed the first chapter a little?

The first section actually was longer by then, and now is longer again, and better (I think).

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

One issue with this section it was that I didn’t quite believe how quickly he seemed to buy in or “trust” these other characters, and his infatuation with the women seemed a little sudden.

Yes, okay. I know how to fix the trust thing. The infatuation thing is... bleh. I'll fix it.

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Another problem was the transition between the two chapters. The end of 1 implied he got away

It did? I thought is was pretty clear he was going to 'pokey' (prison), but anyway, I've embellished the last couple of lines a bit.

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

“Can I have my money back then?” I smiled ingratiatingly, “Please?” made me think he was about to do some magic that would free him

Hmm, yes, okay. I see what you mean. I think it's clearer now.

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

The cliques gave each other an honourable Shouldn't it be a since honorable starts with a consonant?

Haha, well, try saying it as 'a honourable' and see how you like it ;) Some people write 'an hotel', which I think is hideous, because it's a hard 'h'. So, unless you say 'an 'otel', which would be crude and common, then I would never put 'an' there. In the case of 'honourable', to me that's a soft 'h', so the 'an' fits, in a way it would never fit with 'house', for example.

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Interesting – so each animal has different properties. Nice, subtle way to cue me in to this. 

I'm glad I did something right this week, thanks :) (It's been a total car crash otherwise, I admit it.)

On 05/06/2018 at 3:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Yeah, this stinks. Notwithstanding that I'm totally revising almost everything to do with the personal interactions in this section, this line is particular malodorous.

In relation to trust and motives, I'm going to work on those elements.

Thanks again for and for the excellent comments :) 

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Thanks for reading, @Mandamon.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

The first part of this didn't really grab me. It was mainly a listing of prison yard bullies, and this close to the beginning of the story, I want more character building for J, and setting the scene. However I'll agree with @shatteredsmooth that the voice is good.

I think this is better now. More character in there, I just hope's interesting enough.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

Things get going around page 9, where C starts being a player. My main problem was I couldn't see why J would trust her. He goes from being cagey that she knows he's a caster to infatuated with her.

Yeah. I've trimmed the start and concentrated on mistrust. The infatuation is gone. Don't know what I was thinking.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

I'd also like some bigger reason for J to join the gang.

I think J's motivation is better now from the start; certainly it is almost completely different.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

pg 9: "another hurried sucking"
--Another magic term? I'd rather just one general term.

No, this refers to the physical act of sucking the broken ends of the bone. This was the method employed by J in the first section, because he was doing it in the street, in a hurry. We've not seen the full process of extracting 'clout' (slang term), or 'marrow' (more accepted/polite term amongst uses) from properly prepared bones.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

--Why this unerring loyalty to C?

Completely revised. I'm going to resubmit Section 2 on Monday, slots permitting.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

--I haven't seen any reason J *could* trust her yet. They are in prison, after all.

Yeah, the infatuation aspect is gone, and with it the instant trust.

On 05/06/2018 at 8:56 PM, Mandamon said:

--This isn't a big revelation for me. J doesn't have much choice right now, so he's taking whatever job is available.

While this is true, I do like it as a clear conclusion for the section, and it's worked for some people. Keeping it for now.

Thanks again for reading. Very much appreciated :) 

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for reading, @industrialistDragon. You may be my harshest critic at the moment, which is great, because I can't be allowed to get away with this *stuff*

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

I'm very confused by the opening pf this section. I didn't really get from the end of the first one that he'd been captured, and moreover, i thought he was running from extra-legal goons who were going to kill him not toss him in jail? But now he is in jail? And it's co-ed? But not really because Ch is the only woman in there and maybe the guards just got confused when they put her in 'cause she wasn't wearing a skirt? 

All of this is revised, hopefully addressed, or at least clearer, I think.

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Why is everyone beating up on him? ... I really feel like all of this is coming from nowhere. 

I've tried to strike a better balance with this, and give more info, which was always the intention.

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Really, though, it is a little strange to me that of the three prison leaders, it is only Ch that gets a physical description at all

Hopefully now more balance. The approach to J is different in this respect, and the descriptive passages modified. Also, the gender balance in the jail, which was ridiculous, unless I went down some weird road about why Ch could not be put in a women's prison.

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

"I wasn’t an idiot, as far as I knew." -- Well, he sure is acting like it.

All gone in terms of the infatuation.

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

rape- and threat-of-rape-as-character-motivation

I can only apologise for subjecting you to that. A slip towards the bad old days before I joined this forum, or certainly before you, Kais and Neongrey did.

On 08/06/2018 at 6:48 AM, industrialistDragon said:

I feel like the talk about the job is where the plot really starts taking shape, and most of the relevant information from the first chapter and first half of this one could be incorporated later on. Starting from the job offer would be stronger than where the story starts currently.

I'm going to can-of-worms this. The voice is coming over strongly for some people. I don't want to water that down by putting the job first, otherwise it's another heist story. I'm trying to get the USP of the world (magic) across first, as the most unusual (and interesting?) element, along with strong character voice and story tone (gritty). I'm aiming for that because 'heist' is a bit passé at the moment, I think, and I don't believe strong enough on its own to capture the attention of a publisher/editor/slush reader.

I may be wrong, but I'll ride with this until the second draft and first alpha read, at least.

I'll be really interested to see what you guys--should you read the re-submission of this section--think about the voice on the second run.

I'm very grateful for your comments. Thank you.

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Hey Kais, thank you for some very helpful comments, as always.

On 09/06/2018 at 0:02 AM, kais said:

There's a strong sense of voice, which is good. Unfortunately I'm just not really connecting to it.

Okay, I'm not sure if the voice is much different, I wasn't aiming to change it, but maybe the 'wrapping' is such that it resonates better? Don't know. I can hope.

On 09/06/2018 at 0:02 AM, kais said:

I was a bit disappointed to see the allusion to rape

Now gone. There is a bit more character detail now, I hope, certainly on J and Ch.

On 09/06/2018 at 0:02 AM, kais said:

- page eight: alert alert! Dark skinned person called out. What were the skin tones of everyone else, then? Got to be consistent. Either everyone gets skin tone call outs, or no one does. Otherwise you're othering

- page nine: the 'she's not like other girl's' trope just popped up. 

- Is she the only woman in here? That seems really weird

- page eleven: I'm having a hard time keeping all these names straight, since I'm not entirely certain what is going on other than a very speedy lusty-romance

All this is either gone or changed.

On 09/06/2018 at 0:02 AM, kais said:

- I'm not particularly motivated about this escape/heist that is being planned.

I've added more background to J and Ch, so I'm hoping this hangs together better.

On 09/06/2018 at 0:02 AM, kais said:

I do like a gritty low fantasy though (maybe high? unsure where the magic is going ATM), so I'm interested to read more for sure

I'm relieved because there was 24 hours when I was ready to junk this and go back to my Q stand-alone novella. I always feel this way when I've had a (well-earned and thoroughly deserved) critical mauling. So, I think the story has passed the 'first hurdle' refusal test. I still believe in it :) 

Thanks again, K.

<R>

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