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[OB] Scadrial vs Roshar


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Who do you think would win in a giant, interplanetary war between Scadrial and Roshar? Ok so in order for this to work we're going to need to establish so ground rules.

Rules

Scadrial is set in Wax and Wayne era

Roshar is set in the current era

The only way to travel from one planet to the other is through perpendicularities. Both planets know where all available perpendicularities are. No space travel. 

Also they can't just surround the perpendicularity and kill anyone who passes through. 

Let's assume that in both sides, all nations on each planet are unified in this war, but not by a lot. Meaning all the Roshar kingdoms want to defeat the Scadrians, but for example if the choice comes to either protect their own nation or defend another's, they're probably gonna save their own. Which is similar for what we've seen so far. Same goes for the Northern and Southern Scadrians.

Also since Scadrial has so many mistings and ferrings, let's assume Roshar gets 50-100 more surgebinders (We can change that number if you guys don't think that's fair).

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If they have the advancements of the Southern Scadrians, including medallion tech, Id say they win.  They'd be able to field more Metallic Arts with less attrition, and they have all the transportable advancements and technology

 

Roshar could win but would first need to make more significant strides in re-discovering Fabriel technology, specifically would need to be able to expand their soulcasting capabilities; that is how they tactically supplement their relative lack of industry or large-scale logistics.  A push towards gender-equal Literacy might also be useful.

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Scadrial would also be able to field their Allomancers anywhere. They'd just need metal. And a little metal goes a long way, so they wouldn't even need a LOT of metal. Radiants would be limited by needing to recharge their stormlight, and they'd need some significant amounts of it, and they'd need perfect gems if they wanted to travel very far.

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Good point.  All their best travel means are heavily dependent on Stormlight, or else the node-based Oathgates which they cannot replicate or repair currently. 

Oathbringer spoilers:
 

Spoiler

 

It would depend on two things: Can Dalinar replicate his Unity summoning of Honor's Perpendicularity?  Will other perpendicularities recharge gems in a similar fashion?

If either of those are true, then they'd have tactical access to Investiture on Scadrial, which would tip things in their favor quite a bit.  We really havent seen the upper limits of the Surges yet, but if the Desolation forces we did see were any indicator they're intended to tackle opponents far more intimidating than your average misting. 

 

 

Edited by Pagerunner
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Hmm, interesting twist.  There have been threads addressing this type of war before, but I don't think anyone has brought up perpendicularities as part of the fight.

Era 1 Battle

Era 2 Battle

Personally, I really want to root for Roshar, but I don't think there has been any situation (era/technology/magic users/etc) so far where Roshar could defeat Scadrial.

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Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

Even if Dalinar could replicate it on demand, would he be able to replicate it off of Roshar, since that's where the Stormfather is?

 

Edited by Pagerunner
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Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

 

Probably not. He even tells the Stormfather that what he did with renewing the gemstones was the result of him, the Stormfather and Tanavast's CS. It would be hard to imagine Dalinar getting the Stormfather off Roshar (over and above how hard it is to get any spren offworld) since not only is he so fundamental to the planet but he's also merged with a Cognitive Shadow which is itself going to be bound to the Rosharan System.

2 hours ago, Rathmaskal said:

Hmm, interesting twist.  There have been threads addressing this type of war before, but I don't think anyone has brought up perpendicularities as part of the fight.

I suspect because those topics predate the release of Oathbringer, so we didn't know the details of Roshar's Perpendicularities and especially the unique nature of Honor's. We knew from the unpublished 'Jasnah in Shadesmar' interlude that it moved but we didn't know what that meant or how it might be accessed. So it was sort of an unknown and hard to factor in.

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

It would depend on two things: Can Dalinar replicate his Unity summoning of Honor's Perpendicularity?  Will other perpendicularities recharge gems in a similar fashion?

If either of those are true, then they'd have tactical access to Investiture on Scadrial, which would tip things in their favor quite a bit.

Brandon has suggested that one could get Investiture directly from a Perpendicularity but that it's dangerous to hang out by one. The same WoB notes that Scadrial is a world that's very hard to get Investiture out of, in comparative terms. So a Rosharan on Scadrial would have a hard time getting Investiture once they burn through whatever infused gemstones they arrived with.

 

 

Edited by Pagerunner
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Wouldn't Scadrial have to be set in Era 1 in order for this to be truly fair? I believe they have weapons such as gatling guns and explosives in Era 2, (not to mention Souther Scadrialian technology) so I don't think Roshar could feasibly stand up to such technology, even factoring in fabrials and shard plate, given their more medieval weaponry.

Also, can we assume that Roshar has more Knights Radiant, or are we limited by only the people currently living in each era? I.e is it only Dalinar & his Radiants + OB time-frame Roshar vs. Wax & his allies + Era 2 Scadrial?

Edited by Faceless Mist-Wraith
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Im starting to suspect that the only way to get enough Scadrial Investiture to satisfy the Radiants would require the capture of one or more Nicrosil Compounders (or the the equivalent in unkeyed medallions).

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3 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Wouldn't Scadrial have to be set in Era 1 in order for this to be truly fair? I believe they have weapons such as gatling guns and explosives in Era 2, (not to mention Souther Scadrialian technology) so I don't think Roshar could feasibly stand up to such technology, even factoring in fabrials and shard plate, given their more medieval weaponry.

Also, can we assume that Roshar has more Knights Radiant, or are we limited by only the people currently living in each era? I.e is it only Dalinar & his Radiants + OB time-frame Roshar vs. Wax & his allies + Era 2 Scadrial?

It isn't about a fair fight. It is about putting the two timelines as near each other as possible.

A war like this would be hard to "win". Probably both planets would find it near impossible to occupy the other long term.

Transportation.
You have to transport troops through perpendicularity bottlenecking movement. Here Roshar has a small advantage. We don't know the numbers but some Radiants would have access to Transportation.
Transporting supplies. Roshar has an advantage. Soulcasters will minimize the need for large scale transportation. However you will need a large number of gemstones to power these. Easy if you are on Roshar. Difficult on Scadrial. Scadrians have access to trains and cars. Roshar has access to lashings which could help speed up transportation as the cost of investiture.
 

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The e biggest difference in this battle to me is, and always has been, access to power. 

Metalborn of any variety can use metal from anywhere, and metal doesn't noticeably degrade over the course of times that it would matter. 

Scadrial's powers are available to them on Roshar, and it's actually possible that some varieties of spren would bond with Scadrians. 

Rosharan powers are ridiculously difficult to take off world, and the only way for them to gain Scadrian powers is lerasium or hemalurgy. 

For Roshar, this is a perpetual defensive battle. 

Edited by Calderis
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4 hours ago, Calderis said:

The e biggest difference in this battle to me is, and always has been, access to power. 

Metalborn of any variety can use metal from anywhere, and metal doesn't noticeably degrade over the course of times that it would matter. 

Scadrial's powers are available to them on Roshar, and it's actually possible that some varieties of spren would bond with Scadrians. 

Rosharan powers are ridiculously difficult to take off world, and the only way for them to gain Scadrian powers is lerasium or hemalurgy. 

For Roshar, this is a perpetual defensive battle. 

Yep, I mentioned that earlier. Scadrians wouldn't even need a lot of metal. A pound or so of each is enough for many Allomancers for most of the metals. A bit more for pewter, but still not a lot.

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Coinshots and Lurcher's would be a nasty surprise when they are first encountered, if the Rosharian's weren't aware of their abilities. Imagine being thrown backwards suddenly (say by your belt buckle) without any knowledge of how it's happened. Or having a sword fly at you from across the battlefield. It's not overly intuitive, without repeat observation, that it's metal that's being affected and not just 'this person can  move all things with their mind'.

I think Scadrian's would win hands down. 

Bands of Mourning spoilers:

Spoiler

Assuming that Chromium Primer Cubes aren't limited to Scadrial Investiture then I see no way for Rosharian's to come even close to winning

Though, without even considering Scadrial Investiture, I think the Rosharian's would do poorly simply for the fact that Scadrian's have guns and explosives. 

 

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5 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

Population in Scadrial is little more than a nation as France or Spain. Roshar is an entire continet as U.S.A or Russia in a long time war this is a great advantage to Roshar.

 

I don't believe this is accurate. Yes, the basin population is relatively low, but there's another five nations in the south that we have no count on, with vastly superior tech. 

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I feel that Roshar will win just because of the spren population.

All of the first battles will happen in the cognitive realm, that means that lurchers, rioters, soothers, and coinshots will be  useless, all metal, that the spren have, is grown from cognitive aspects and spren will resist any form of emotional allomancy as they are living investiture. They will detect any use of Allomancy, and maybe uses of Feruchemy. Spren are almost impossible to kill unless Scadrialians have shardblades, and hermalurgic spikes would be poor substitutes. 

Spren also have machines that can create physical things from cognitive aspects, like food or water, and access to perfect or near perfect gemstones, so even if they can't leave Roshar they can give Radiants and armies these machines and gemstones to let them bring investiture and create food when they are on Scadrial. As of right now, we do not know if Scadrial has anyway of using cognitive objects to create physical objects.

Edited by MountainKing
Fixed Grammar
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But what about the fact that the Rosharans have so much more war experience? The Scadrians haven't have a major war in 300 years. Yes they have tactical books but that's not a lot compared to actual firsthand experience. Maybe the Southern Scadrians have fought more but it sounded like they are mostly in peace. I think the Rosharan' s tactical knowledge would be a huge advantage.

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Also, attacking other planets should be extremely difficult for both sides due to the fact that Roshar is at 0.7 Cosmere standard gravity compared to Scadrial's 1.0. Mix in infectious diseases (The 17th Shard's quick visit to the Purelake resulted in a widespread plague) and I think that actually invading would be incredibly difficult even without looking at the actual combat.

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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Firearms kind of crush Rosharan warfare tactics. Explosives and firearms infantry isn't a fair fight. At all. 

As stated in one of the other discussions, think of the conquer of the Zulu, or the Aztec. In the Aztec’s case, nearly an entire empire, estimated to have a population of at least 500,000 (correct me if I’m wrong) people was taken down by like 300-400 men, with the natural choke point of the Atlantic Ocean.

Scadrial’s advantage is literally god given, there’s no way they can lose.

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On 6/1/2018 at 9:46 PM, Calderis said:

The e biggest difference in this battle to me is, and always has been, access to power. 

Metalborn of any variety can use metal from anywhere, and metal doesn't noticeably degrade over the course of times that it would matter. 

Scadrial's powers are available to them on Roshar, and it's actually possible that some varieties of spren would bond with Scadrians. 

Rosharan powers are ridiculously difficult to take off world, and the only way for them to gain Scadrian powers is lerasium or hemalurgy. 

For Roshar, this is a perpetual defensive battle. 

While I agree with this a Radiant is far more powerful than any misting or Twinborn. There is not access to Mistborn and Feruchemists.

Scadrians can easily invade Roshar with the lower gravity. Rosharians are barely going to function on Scadrial.

The average soldiers on Scadrial would also be far better equipped than Roshar. Scadrian soldiers have pretty advanced guns. Roshar is still working with barely medieval level technology. The fights wouldn't even be fair. You'd have the average Scadrian easily taking out 4-6 Rosharians.

You also have the problem that no one knows how to take spren off world. Which would mean Radiants invading would lose access to their surges.

Roshar stands no chance of taking over Scadrial. Scadrial would have a fair to moderate chance of taking over Roshar.
 

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22 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

But everyone is forgetting about the spren.

Spren are not that useful. The majority are unlikely to take sides in the situation. They are also bound to their planet. The first battle probably wouldn't take place in the cognitive realm. The first battle would be an invading force from one side or the other. The cognitive realm is very unknown and it isn't likely that either party will try to hold it. They will hold the perpendicularity which is much easier.

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28 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

But everyone is forgetting about the spren.

In the Cognitive Realm, the Spren have exhibited no powers. Yes they are difficult to kill, but they are simple to hurt. They don't have armor, or even technically clothing, they just alter their forms to look how they will. 

What makes you think the Spren would be an overpowering force? 

33 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

While I agree with this a Radiant is far more powerful than any misting or Twinborn. There is not access to Mistborn and Feruchemists.

True, but this is a numbers game. There are far far more mistings, and to a lesser degree ferrings, than even squires. Add in the occasional Twinborn... 

Magically, I think the world are pretty balanced overall when you compare strength vs numbers. 

The thing that throws it to Scadrial is pure tech. 

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In the Cognitive Realm, the Spren have exhibited no powers. Yes they are difficult to kill, but they are simple to hurt. They don't have armor, or even technically clothing, they just alter their forms to look how they will. 

What makes you think the Spren would be an overpowering force? 

Any metal the spren have can't be pulled or pushed on, and they are immune to emotional allomancy. They have perfect to near perfect gemstones, that will allow radiants to bring stormlight to Scadrail and they have machines that create physical objects by using investiture and cognitive aspect of objects, allowing the Rosharan forces to provide food and water for their troops. Cultivationspren can naturally "grow" objects from cognitive aspects of physical objects allowing the spren to quickly produce armour and weapons to fight against Scadrailian forces.

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