[OB] Brandon's Romance... Issues

[thejopen27]

So I love Brandon. I think he is a very good writer in general and great in some areas. He's especially good at connecting theme to story and world. He's on Pixar's level of connecting the world he's built, the story, and the characters to the theme he is exploring. (Seriously, Pixar is amazing at connecting theme to character and story, except The Incredibles which struggles to nail down a theme, but is still great.) But Brandon does have a flaw. A flaw that finally became clear to me after finishing another reread of Stormlight and rereading MIstborn (both eras): Brandon is bad at writing convincing romantic relationships. 

I acknowledge that my personal taste does not match everyone else'

s.

Romances I think work (they are narratively satisfying, I like both characters, I think they work well together, Brandon has done the legwork to set the up together)

Vin and Elend: Brandon's most successful romantic plot. He successfully ties it into Vin's main theme of learning to trust people and learning to be her real self. 

Dalinar and Navani: Brandon cheats on this one and skips all the setup and we start at; they both like each other, but Dalinar doesn't think he can be with her. They work well together as two people who have both decided to be above the judgement of society and it's nice to see an older couple done well. 

Those are the two.

Romances I'm ok with, but fail for one reason or another:

Siri and Susebron: I debated bumping this one up. It mostly works I think, but it just seems too unbalanced. Siri, who is the only one we get to see, spend the whole first half thinking she is his prisoner. Then we find out they're both prisoners. Then Siri has to teach Susebron how to read and Siri is the one in power over Susebron. 2/4 of arranged marriages.

Spook and Beldre almost work, but it's too rushed, and we don't know Beldre well enough. It's well implied but too far from the main events of the story. Beldre is a tertiary character at best and Spook is a strong secondary character. 

Raoden and Serene: Mostly good.They both work well as individual characters and I buy them liking each other, but they just don't spend enough time together. This is also the beginning of Brandon's troubling trend of arranged marriages working out. 

Vivenna and Vasher: It works on all levels... except, I'm not sure if we're supposed to think of the romantically. Are they a couple? 

Sazed and Tindwyl: This one mostly works, but it's a little rushed, and seems a little like Fridging, introducing a romantic plot for Sazed just to kill her off to give him a crises of faith.

The ones that just don't work (either I don't buy them together, Brandon hasn't done the legwork, or one side is not set up enough)

Wax and Steris: My main issue with this is the main issue I will be discussing later with another controversial opinion I have about a couple, is Brandon doing all the legwork to show us that Marasi is a better fit, Marasi works better with the eventual lessie reveal, Marasi has better chemistry with Wax, and then Brandon completely runs away from it in the later books. Wax had a "great love" and it was Lessie, Steris would work fine if there was no Marasi and Marasi and Steris would work with no Lessie. Brandon also runs away from the dynamic he set up a bit (he does this much worse in Oathbringer) but he spends a lot of time setting up a love triangle in book one, only to run away from it, and try to pretend he never did in later books. And another arranged marriage that works out...

And we've reached my largest issue with Brandon's romance plots, the one that combines all my issues together... Adolin and Shallan:                          
First of all, I will acknowledge that Brandon could make this work later through soom reveal in future books or by really selling me on them together in the future, but...
My issues are:

I feel like Brandon changed course between Words of Radiance and Oathbringer, and tried to hand-wave away the set-up he did there. The main event of all of Words of Radiance before the climax was Shallan and Kaladin in the Shattered Plains. I can buy that Shallan didn't really like Kaladin, that she just thinks he's handsome and that his intensity and absurdness of righteousness is more frightening to her than Adolin's simple loyalty and good-naturedness, but I don't buy that, no, it was really Veil who liked him, there is no mention of Veil in the cravaces, in fact it was the only time in WoR that Shallan was honest and open with another person. Kaladin is the only person she has ever told about her life and her father, up to this point no one else other than her brothers know anything about her life before she arrived in Kharbranth,  I don't buy Kaladin's decision that he doesn't really like her, that he just thinks of her like Tien. Shallan is that only person that Kaladin has told about his past, she is the only one he tells the full story of Amaram to. It seems like Brandon changed his mind (which is fine) but decided to just undo everything he set up in WoR in OB by just declaring that Shallan is like Tien to Kaladin, and it was really Veil who liked Kaladin. 

I also don't feel like Shallan had reached the point in her arc to get married and resolve her romantic issues permanently. It is treated as a casual decision that she can make along the way to figuring out everything else about herself. Brandon handles this so well in Mistborn wit Vin and completely botches the same situation with Shallan. Shallan ends OB in a much worse state than Vin was ever in, but decides that getting married will help solve all her identity problems. If someone did that in the real world we would consider it a panic move that was doomed to fail.

I think Shallan and Adolin's relationship is shallow, they think each other are pretty and Adolin knows nothing about Shallan's past, her family, or her dark secrets. 

Another arranged marriage. I know that all of these are culturally appropriate for the characters, but it just grates against everything I expect in a novel. Undermining expectations is good, unless you develop a pattern of undermining them in the same way four times in a row. 

My issue isn't that Shallan picked Adolin and Kaladin has moved on. I just don't think Brandon did the legwork to get us to the point we were at at the end of OB and I think he casually dismissed some things he set up in WoR. Maybe he knows this and Shallan and Adolin's marriage will not be the end of this issue, but it seemed like Brandon was tying everything up in a neat little bow. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by thejopen27

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

@thejopen27 This is going to be a long post. I would recommend reading this if you were left frustrated at how the romance in Oathbringer was handled. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/mobilebasic#h.wkauw2fpicg4

Firstly, I agree with everything you've said above except I actually enjoyed Wax and Steris' relationship and felt it developed somewhat organically. When I read Oathbringer I was left extremely dissatisfied with how the love triangle was handled. The wedding at the end is incredibly rushed and structurally jarring in my opinion. I personally believe that this was intentional and that the 'real Shallan' we see at the end is nothing more than a persona and that Shallan has forced her romantic feelings for Kaladin into the Veil persona. 

Shallan forces aspects of herself that she is either incapable of dealing with or dislikes onto her personas. After Jasnah chastises Shallan for her drawing of Kaladin she pushes her romantic interest in Kaladin onto Veil. This provides her with the wish fulfilment which is marrying Adolin. For her entire life, she has expected to be married off for political purposes and sequestered in a manor so the 'real Shallan' persona latches onto this opportunity for a little bit of normalcy in her turbulent life.

I think what ultimately confused me the most with the love triangle is the reasoning behind pushing Kaladin towards Shallan through the chasm sequence and Syl's wingsprenning when it amounts to nothing. No character development for Kaladin, Shallan or Adolin. None at all. In fact, I think due to the lightweaver nature of oath progression as truths and self awareness, Shallan will fray her bond with Pattern by deluding herself, so Shallan's character may be regressing despite her apparent happiness at the end of oathbringer. 

Shallan's self delusion is shown when she dismisses any romantic feelings for Kaladin as Veil having 'bad taste in men'. Given their interactions in the chasm, this comment comes off as incredibly disingenuous and demonstrates the disconnect between Shallan and reality as she views her constructed personas as separate entities whose attributes do not originate from herself.

I'm hopeful that all of Brandon's teasing and foreshadowing for Shallan and Kaladin being romantically involved pays off. It makes sense from a narrative standpoint as Kaladin would have to forgive himself for failing Tien before he can be in a relationship (see Tarah), and Shallan would have to integrate her personas and lift the mask of lies she has been wearing.

[thejopen27]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt the whole thing at the end of Oathbringer was rushed. I just don't feel like Brandon had to wrap everything up so neatly at the end for Shallan, especially since she failed to deal with her inner personal conflict. It just felt so final, like Brandon wanted us to move on. I'm not necessarily even rooting for Kaladin/Shallan. I just don't think it was dealt with effectively or satisfactorily. It felt to me that Shallan was still at the bottom of arc and Brandon didn't do enough to earn a resolution.

 

I admit I may be too hard on Steris.

Edited May 30, 2018 by thejopen27

[Toaster Retribution]

I won’t touch the love triangle, mostly because there are very strong feelings there, and I’m not that interested. But I want to touch upon the notion of fridging, because that is something that bothers me.

Fridging is a very strange thing to complain about. Deciding that it is questionable to kill a woman to advance the plot of a man is extremely restrictive. I think that everyone should be able to tell the story they are most interested in, and if that demands the death of a daughter/girlfriend/mother, or a father/son/boyfriend, then that is completely okay. 

I also want to make it clear that I am not aiming at the OP with my comment, but more against the fridging term in general :-) 

On another note, I agree about the relationship between Vin and Elend, which worked really well, and developed both characters. I don’t generally have problems with Sandersons romances, but then again, I’m no romance guy, so that might be why.

[thejopen27]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I won’t touch the love triangle, mostly because there are very strong feelings there, and I’m not that interested. But I want to touch upon the notion of fridging, because that is something that bothers me.

Fridging is a very strange thing to complain about. Deciding that it is questionable to kill a woman to advance the plot of a man is extremely restrictive. I think that everyone should be able to tell the story they are most interested in, and if that demands the death of a daughter/girlfriend/mother, or a father/son/boyfriend, then that is completely okay. 

I also want to make it clear that I am not aiming at the OP with my comment, but more against the fridging term in general :-) 

On another note, I agree about the relationship between Vin and Elend, which worked really well, and developed both characters. I don’t generally have problems with Sandersons romances, but then again, I’m no romance guy, so that might be why.

I think people go too far on Fridging frequently. And tropes are tropes for a reason, they make sense. Someone dying is a common motivation for people to change and is a very relate-able trauma that the audience can understand. Brandon himself plays with this trope (or is it Harmony playing off this trope) in the Mistborn Era 2 stuff with Lessie/Paalme. Harmony has the character of Wax's wife killed off to get him to move back to the city. I just think it's an issue that more often, it's the female characters that are killed off and in this case, Tindwyl was introduced, fell in love with Sazed, and was killed in one book and the result was it pushed Sazed's narrative. It just wasn't handled as subtly as tropes were, especially in Mistborn, which is supposed to be a deconstruction.

[Wandering Investor]

3 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Raoden and Serene: Mostly good.They both work well as individual characters and I buy them liking each other, but they just don't spend enough time together. This is also the beginning of Brandon's troubling trend of arranged marriages working o

 

3 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Sazed and Tindwyl: This one mostly works, but it's a little rushed, and seems a little like Fridging, introducing a romantic plot for Sazed just to kill her off to give him a crises of faith.

For these two at least, it ties into the background of the world Brandon built. Raoden and Serene exchanged letters a fair amount before they met, so they already knew and liked one another through that. Sazed and Tindwyl had a long history together, that part was a surprise, but didn't feel rushed to me. 

I won't touch the SA love triangle.

And as for the arranged marriages bit, most of these stories take place in what could be considered a high fantasy medieval setting. Important part of that is power being concentrated in nobles, and since the main characters are important, they also tend to be noble in some way. Nobility comes with high authority and high responsibility. The responsibility part makes arranged marriages a lot of sense. I think it is interesting to see people drawn together by duty come together with a good relationship, not a bad thing.

[thejopen27]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

And as for the arranged marriages bit, most of these stories take place in what could be considered a high fantasy medieval setting. Important part of that is power being concentrated in nobles, and since the main characters are important, they also tend to be noble in some way. Nobility comes with high authority and high responsibility. The responsibility part makes arranged marriages a lot of sense. I think it is interesting to see people drawn together by duty come together with a good relationship, not a bad thing.

I know that it is my modern, western sensibilities getting in the way, and it may be culturally appropriate for the arranged marriages to work. But my cultural upbringing, and my conditioning from reading other stories, just rebels against arranged marriages. He's done it FOUR times now, in his five shard world stories, he's had four of the main romance plots be arranged marriages.

My main issue with Raoden and Serene romance plot is that the two characters in the romance plot spend 95% of the book apart from each other. Not the characters time, but the readers time. Most of my complaints are not in world complaints, they're meta complaints. I think Brandon has the habit of hand-waving some of the romance elements of his books. My main issue with the SA trio of death is not the choice Shallan made, but that I don't think Brandon dd enough work to get the readers to the point that we understood it. As evidenced by the fierce arguments in the forum. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by thejopen27

[Zath]

10 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I just don't think Brandon did the legwork to get us to the point we were at at the end of OB and I think he casually dismissed some things he set up in WoR. Maybe he knows this and Shallan and Adolin's marriage will not be the end of this issue,

9 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

The wedding at the end is incredibly rushed and structurally jarring in my opinion. I personally believe that this was intentional and that the 'real Shallan' we see at the end is nothing more than a persona and that Shallan has forced her romantic feelings for Kaladin into the Veil persona. 

I agree with this, and am fully expecting some major marital problems for Shallan and Adolin in future SA books.  All of Shallan's many, many emotional issues (which @thejopen27 and @The Harlem Worldhoppers totally nailed above IMO, so I won't go into that here), plus Adolin's "unfaithful boyfriend" tendencies, added to the fact that this is only book 3 of 5 (technically book 3 of 10, but I'm pretty sure the love triangle plot will be resolved by the time the next 5-book cycle starts.  ...I hope... ).  Yeah, I don't think Brandon is intending the marriage scene at the end of OB to be the end of all these issues -- he just wants us to think it is.  
If so, that could break his trend of "arranged marriages that work out."  Potentially in a very big way.

6 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I think Brandon has the habit of hand-waving some of the romance elements of his books.

I agree, but I personally am actually okay with this, because he is first and foremost an epic fantasy author.  Not that that excuses poorly written romance sub-plots, it's just that I'm willing to forgive some hand-waving in the romance area if it means more flying, magical warriors battling it out at the front of a highstorm.    There's room for improvement, sure, but I'm kinda glad that the romance sub-plots are sub-plots, you know?  That's just my opinion, though. 

[Wandering Investor]

6 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I know that it is my modern, western sensibilities getting in the way, and it may be culturally appropriate for the arranged marriages to work. But my cultural upbringing, and my conditioning from reading other stories, just rebels against arranged marriages. He's done it FOUR times now, in his five shard world stories, he's had four of the main romance plots be arranged marriages.

My main issue with Raoden and Serene romance plot is that the two characters in the romance plot spend 95% of the book apart from each other. Not the characters time, but the readers time. Most of my complaints are not in world complaints, they're meta complaints. I think Brandon has the habit of hand-waving some of the romance elements of his books. My main issue with the SA trio of death is not the choice Shallan made, but that I don't think Brandon dd enough work to get the readers to the point that we understood it. As evidenced by the fierce arguments in the forum. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free will marriage. It is just that in these settings, arranged/political marriages make for a lot of sense. I suspect as we watch the cosmere go into the future, it will shift away from this. 

Plus, I would not count Wax/Steris or Shallan/Adolin as arranged marriages. They were not brokered by third parties with all the authority. Was/Steris came together willingly to fix this house problems, and Jasnah might have hooked Shallan up, but Shallan was all for it.

As for not doing the legwork for some of these relationships... yeah. But they're not romance novels, they're novels with romance, so I can kinda ignore when things work out better than they probably should as long as its a reasonable possibility, but I also can understand being annoyed by it.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Wandering Investor

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

41 minutes ago, Zath said:

I agree with this, and am fully expecting some major marital problems for Shallan and Adolin in future SA books.  All of Shallan's many, many emotional issues (which @thejopen27 and @The Harlem Worldhoppers totally nailed above IMO, so I won't go into that here), plus Adolin's "unfaithful boyfriend" tendencies, added to the fact that this is only book 3 of 5 (technically book 3 of 10, but I'm pretty sure the love triangle plot will be resolved by the time the next 5-book cycle starts.  ...I hope... ).  Yeah, I don't think Brandon is intending the marriage scene at the end of OB to be the end of all these issues -- he just wants us to think it is.  
If so, that could break his trend of "arranged marriages that work out."  Potentially in a very big way.

I agree, but I personally am actually okay with this, because he is first and foremost an epic fantasy author.  Not that that excuses poorly written romance sub-plots, it's just that I'm willing to forgive some hand-waving in the romance area if it means more flying, magical warriors battling it out at the front of a highstorm.    There's room for improvement, sure, but I'm kinda glad that the romance sub-plots are sub-plots, you know?  That's just my opinion, though. 

As @Zath cleverly pointed out above, the Oathbringer love triangle could Buck the trend of arranged marriages in Sanderson's novels. The plethora of arranged marriages is one of the most common criticisms of Sanderson's work, and I'm sure he is aware of this. He has also received criticism that many of his female characters are all too similar. However, I think this has become less true over time with his characters as his writing has improved.

The next logical step would be to turn the Shallan-Adolin arranged marriage on its head. Some users above have talked about the 'fridging' of Adolin to achieve this but I find it unlikely. A potential Maya revival arc does not grant Adolin plot shardplate, as seen with Elhokar's near radiant experience. While I doubt this plot device gets reused so soon, there are other ways in which Adolin could revive Maya and die, or revive Maya and discover that he is not broken enough to be a radiant.

Personally, I could see a mutual ending of the arranged marriage as Adolin has shown his willingness to step back and respect Shallan's wishes, while Shallan would inherently experience some character growth by confronting her past and her feelings for Kaladin.

[Llarimar]

7 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I know that it is my modern, western sensibilities getting in the way, and it may be culturally appropriate for the arranged marriages to work. But my cultural upbringing, and my conditioning from reading other stories, just rebels against arranged marriages. He's done it FOUR times now, in his five shard world stories, he's had four of the main romance plots be arranged marriages.

I personally really like the fact that so many of the relationships in Sanderson's books are arranged marriages which actually work out, if only because this is very rarely seen in fiction.  Arranged marriages are always depicted as oppressive and distasteful, so it's very interesting to see an author who approaches them in a different way, and understands their practical value within the context of the story.

I know what you mean about modern, Western sensibilities, but the fact is that there are many cultures in the world where arranged marriages are a tried and tested formula that has been established for hundreds of years and remains quite effective today.  There is often a perception in Western society that people who are placed into arranged marriages are having their lives stolen, and their freedom taken away, but quite frequently everyone involved is pleased with these arrangements and consider them to be very culturally significant and fulfilling.  Of course... I may be projecting my thoughts too much because I was not raised in such a culture, but I have just heard and read this opinion in a couple different places - that arranged marriages aren't always as bad as they're imagined to be by the Western viewpoint.  

I like the fact that arranged marriages are positively depicted in Sanderson's works because of the fact that there are real, intelligent cultures existing today that do accept and practice arranged marriages.  I always embrace it when fantasy authors break free of Western philosophy or cultural norms, because fantasy is typically written in the style of a very monotheistic, medieval European tradition, and it's exciting to see something different in the genre.  

[ScarletSabre]

I'm at work at the moment and can't get into this as properly as I'd like, but I do agree on quite a few points, especially that Brandon seems to be developing a trope of arranged marriages work out. I could get into my theory about Brandon's possible feelings on the sanctity of marriage etc. being similar to his choices in keeping the characters from swearing like a SoIaF character. (Or even a middle ground since there's a HELL of a difference between the two types of cursing etc.) but I digress.

I just wanted to chime in with my own hopes for how Shallan and Adolin and Kaladin will end up, since the love triangle shebang felt rather rushed and shallow, we didn't even get any significant interaction between Kaladin and Shallan aside from the one conversation in Shadesmar where their respective focuses on their own mental health issues makes Shallan decide that Adolin is better for her... They've both seen different sides of her, but Kaladin, I still think, has seen the real Shallan more than Adolin. And while it was a dumb thing for Kaladin to say to Shallan, possibly the worst thing for hurting his chances, I completely agree with him. As someone who suffers from depression the idea of being able to compartmentalise it and seal it off to simply allow myself to function is a hell of a thing I wish I could do sometimes myself.

..... I said I couldn't get into this as properly as I like at the start, didn't I? Well bugger that somewhat, I guess.

Anyhoo, the hopes I have for Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin, are that they'll end up in a Polyamorous relationship with one another. I don't care how it comes about, but they all work great with each other, and I sincerely think they'd all be great for one another, even Kaladin and Adolin. I'd think it's still a (pretty damnation remote) possibility if it wasn't for Shallan and Adolin's marriage.... Not just because Brandon has the trope of making arranged marriages work out, but because of the setting of Stormlight, the importance of vows and oaths etc (which is also something Brandon seems to consider with all of his characters/writing, since I don't think we ever get to see anyone in a relationship (aside from maybe some Nobles in Mistborn) commit infidelity. Brandon seems to consider that when you're in a relationship, you're in one, though Vin and Zane come close...) and because of the political turmoil for both of them. I also ship Kaladin and Jasnah somewhat, so there's at least that (and I will laugh myself silly... okay, sillier, if Jasnah at one point offhandedly mentions to Shallan how attractive Kaladin is.), but I would also be very happy if Kaladin becomes a forbidden fruit and boytoy/affair or even just sexbuddy with Shallan, because good gods that man needs some companionship and release.

And there we go, there's my rambling!

[+Brassweaver]

In terms of how the love triangle ends in Oathbringer I don't agree that it ends up all perfect in a little bow. I think that Shallan and Adolin getting married goes a lot deeper than just the romantic aspects of the book. They've been betrothed, quite publicly, since the beginning of WoR and Adolin is now Highprince Kholin so to the casual Alethi observer - who has no knowledge of the Kaladin relationship and Shallans mental health issues- it might seem like the marriage has been delayed for a long time. I'm glad that Shallan makes a choice to do it, but we can't ignore that it has positive political consequences as well. In short, shipping aside, its a smart move for the Kholins. 

Additionally it think that seeing Shallan and Adolin figure out their issue in a marriage relationship is going to be fascinating to watch. I will hate it if Shallan cheats on Adolin because he's perfect, but I don't think it will be a problem. At least with Kaladin because he realizes that she just reminded him of Tien at the end.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Brassweaver19
Forgot to include something originally

[Xtafa]

The wedding was rushed. I would have personally preferred Shallans next POV in the next book to open on her wedding, SOMETHING BIG HAPPENS midway through xD 

 

BATTLE. 

[Kidpen]

I only skimmed things, so maybe this was already brought up, but Vivenna and Vasher are most definitely not a couple as of the end of Warbreaker. I most definitely think it's possible to become so in future books. But not yet. At the moment, it's just mentor/student who are also kind of friends.

[soulcastJam]

On 5/30/2018 at 1:18 PM, thejopen27 said:

I know that it is my modern, western sensibilities getting in the way, and it may be culturally appropriate for the arranged marriages to work. But my cultural upbringing, and my conditioning from reading other stories, just rebels against arranged marriages. He's done it FOUR times now, in his five shard world stories, he's had four of the main romance plots be arranged marriages.

I have met a couple from an arranged marriage. They look at western style marriage and the incredibly high divorce rate and say, "clearly that idea isn't working so well." I'm pretty sure our western sensibilities have become skewed. An objective observer would probably agree that arranged marriages are generally more successful, although I guess that depends on your definition of success. Arranged marriages often work because of the expectation of making it work. And free-will marriages often don't work because of the focus on individual freedom.

Personally I like a blend of the two: freedom to choose my spouse, but the expectation to just make it work no matter what (almost). "Choose your love, love your choice" and all that. I think current western society has too much focus on passion and personal fulfillment.

As to Brandon's take on romance, I think he has a different approach than most writers. I find it more realistic. That's probably because I think it's realistic to not fully understand other people's romantic choices. We all want to understand the psychology behind these things, especially when it's the viewpoint character, but it's also realistic not to understand our own personal psychology.

Anyway, his romances work for me.

[Gasper]

Personally, having read most of the Cosmere, Brandon does have a slight problem with romance. But that mostly comes from the SLA love triangle he has going on. Warbreaker was basically two preteens on their first crush, a very weird set up but basically that. Wax and Steris, I did not pay much attention too at first, I was more focused on Wayne eating things and pretending to be Marsh. But going back, I think it is not well written but makes sense. Wax is 40 something year old man who has lost his first wife twice, both times being directly responsible for her death. Steris is a 20 something who can tell that Wax does not exactly want the relationship and has her own issues. Granted, they work out in the end, but the awkwardness is understandable. Dalinar and Navani is actually one of the best I have seen in the Cosmere. 

And then there is Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin. Those three are a whole mess that requires the careful application of the GRR Martin principle. I think Shallan is way crazier than is currently known. Kaladin is basically a poor young Dalinar with a chip on his shoulder. Adolin is the healthiest of the three, which is probably the reason that he has not bonded a spren yet. 

Short aside: Why Spren would choose to willingly bond people with severe mental problems is beyond me.

If Brandon is planning to have Shallan stay in a relationship, either Kaladin need to find someone or die, or we need to kill the funny but loveable sidekick: Adolin. Which could actually be a great set up for the fifth book as a motivator to get the rest of the Radiants to swear their fifth Oaths and put down Odium. 

A third option is that Shallan and Adolin work out their issues and Kaladin and Jasnah end up at the alter. which would make them all one big happy, shardblade wielding, oath swearing, planet ruling, family.

[+Brassweaver]

On 6/1/2018 at 0:21 PM, Gasper said:

Wax and Steris, I did not pay much attention too at first, I was more focused on Wayne eating things and pretending to be Marsh. But going back, I think it is not well written but makes sense. 

Kaladin is basically a poor young Dalinar with a chip on his shoulder.

 

If Brandon is planning to have Shallan stay in a relationship, either Kaladin need to find someone or die, or we need to kill the funny but loveable sidekick: Adolin. Which could actually be a great set up for the fifth book as a motivator to get the rest of the Radiants to swear their fifth Oaths and put down Odium. 

 

Okay so I don't really agree with the Wax and Steris thing, I think those scenes from Bands of Morning are some of the cutest Brandon has written. 

I also don't think that young Dalinar and Kaladin are very similar, Dalinar was a whole lot more reckless. (example: I can't find my knife, better walk through a highstorm to get it)

Also please leave Adolin alive!! He's perfect!! 

[Gasper]

Veil being attracted to Kaladin is a huge problem that will most likely come back to haunt Mr. and Mrs. Kohlin. Veil is arguably the strongest of Shallan's facets and seems to be growing stronger. That little scene where they integrated, not even close, they just had a common goal. It would not surprise me if Veil takes over in book four or five after something traumatic happens. The traumatic part is most likely either going to be a. Kaladin getting destroyed by an Unmade/Fused/Shardblast from Odium/running out of stormlight and becoming a meat pancake on the promenade, or b. Adolin falling in battle to something similar or being executed for killing Sadeas. I am sorry to come to these conclusions, but it seems like a Sanderson thing to do, kill off a powerful or well liked character to further the story. Examples being: Kelsier (Yes, I know he is not really dead), Elend and Vin, and Lightsong.

[Sandra]

On ‎01‎.‎06‎.‎2018 at 2:08 AM, Xtafa said:

The wedding was rushed. I would have personally preferred Shallans next POV in the next book to open on her wedding, SOMETHING BIG HAPPENS midway through xD 

 

BATTLE. 

EPIC BATTLE. Adolin dies  (Honestly though, I still expect Adolin to die somewhere along the way.)

I agree that the Shallan/Adolin romance somehow does not feel realistic. But I also think the main reason for this is Shallan. Her psyche is just so weird and there are many things still unexplained/unexplored from her past. I just don't really understand her sometimes. But considering that we are only at book 3 of 10 I guess there is sooo much of the story still to come that I think could go directions we don't know yet. Maybe it's just that we're not satisfied with the relationship triangle as of right now, but that could change in the next books..

Edited June 7, 2018 by Sandra

[Gasper]

Sezth accidentally sets Nightblood down next to Shallan's brothers. Shallan problem solved.

[The Young Pyromancer]

What if Adolin asks to see Nightblood in a scene, Szeth hands it over (sheathed), and Adolin DIES?

[CrazyRioter]

Never happen. Adolin wouldn't want to touch Nightblood. He's the kind of person that would feel sick looking at Nightblood.

Anyway I like Adolin and don't want him to die.

[goody153]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:54 AM, Gasper said:

Sezth accidentally sets Nightblood down next to Shallan's brothers. Shallan problem solved.

Szeth : Sword-nimi i've holding you approximately 24 weeks, 12 days, 7 hrs, 38 minutes none-stop. I think my muscles are finally almost giving so i'm gonna put you down and have some of those delicious horneater punch in the next room. 

Nightblood: Assuming they even give you some. They see you as evil you know.

Szeth : The perception of people doesn't matter sword-nimi. Only law does 

*2 minutes later and Szeth returns with a punch in his hand*

Some lighteyed women: Murderer ! It's him who killed the brightness brother.

Szeth : Whaa--whaat.

 

(ok i tried lol)

[Meganagem]

Oh boy. Where do I begin? 

First, thanks to all of you who’ve managed to make me laugh out LOUD in public reading all this madness. 

I can’t even deal with talk about “western” sensibilities against arranged marriages.  So I’ll leave all that. 

Triangle:

Shallan is crazy as they come. In answer to the “short aside” about why a spren would bond a crazy person - I’d say I guess it’s down to the type of spren involved. Pattern is a cryptic living the life. 

I got the impression at the end of OB that the rush Brandon was in was actually Shallan’s rush. 

Can it end well? Probably not. But only because she’s nuts and she’s actually getting worse. None of it feels right to me. The only real moment has been that moment in the chasms with Kaladin. But doesn’t Kaladin deserve better? Flip.