Investiture Question?

[whattheHoid]

Ok, I am new to the site, so please be semi gentle, still getting used to things on this site. I had a question about Investiture. If you are a Misting or Mistborn for example and you found yourself off Scadrial and on Roshar. If you had vials of Allomantic metals, could you still burn your metals and it would work as if you were on Scadrial? Or would stormlight interfere with that? Or would the shards on the planet interfere with one's Investiture? Like would Cultivation for example recognize the shardic influence on the "foreign" Investiture? Boy I hope this question makes sense! Thank you everyone!

[Shqueeves]

Metals can be burned anywhere. Most magic systems can be used anywhere, with Selish magics being the exception. 

IDK if shards would be able to identify if somebody is using investiture from a different shard

[whattheHoid]

Ok thanks!! I was a little confused because I thought that the shard Odium had splintered Dominion and Devotion which would have required Odium and presumably the others an awareness or maybe attunness to each other since at one point and time they were one? Or maybe Odium's driving force of becoming the only shard in the Cosmere grants it the ability to know of/sense other shards? 

[Dunkum]

5 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

Ok thanks!! I was a little confused because I thought that the shard Odium had splintered Dominion and Devotion which would have required Odium and presumably the others an awareness or maybe attunness to each other since at one point and time they were one? Or maybe Odium's driving force of becoming the only shard in the Cosmere grants it the ability to know of/sense other shards? 

Well the shards have a sort of immense amount of power, so it is not like most of them would need/want to hide.  In the case of Devotion and Dominion, yes Odium did splinter them (and at least 2 others that we are aware of)

In answer to your original question, as noted most of the magic systems are portable, but in some cases the effort you need to make to port them might be difficult.  For instance we know it is difficult to take a Spren off of Roshar, and we know that some other worlds don't have the freely available investiture that Roshar has in Stormlight, so surgebinding off world would be complicated.  there is nothing preventing it, but you may have to bring your own fuel.  The Metallic arts from Mistborn, on the other hand are fully portable.  You don't even have to bring your own metals, you can use metal from the world you end up on, as long as you are sure of its purity.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Dunkum

[whattheHoid]

@Dunkum Thanks!! I dunno why I thought it wasn't possible! I think Hoid and his Investiture that we see him do confuse me, because I don't know what his deal is. I have some idea, but more questions than answers!

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

I was a little confused because I thought that the shard Odium had splintered Dominion and Devotion which would have required Odium and presumably the others an awareness or maybe attunness to each other since at one point and time they were one? Or maybe Odium's driving force of becoming the only shard in the Cosmere grants it the ability to know of/sense other shards? 

The presence of a Shard is like the presence of a black hole. Instead of the realms being warped by intense gravity, they get warped by massive levels of Investiture. If someone knows the signs, they can find out where a Shard is.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
And the presence of a Shard warps Shadesmar much as large objects warp the physical realm (gravitation.) So if you know how to look, it's not hard to find them.

I don't think there's some fancy power that lets him sense them, and thanks to the WoB, there doesn't need to be a power like that either.

15 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

I think Hoid and his Investiture that we see him do confuse me, because I don't know what his deal is. I have some idea, but more questions than answers!

If you have questions, ask away. We'll answer anything that we can

[whattheHoid]

@The One Who Connects Ok so maybe I should start a different question thread? But here goes, if you could find an intact shard could you as a normal person, not a god or spren, pick it up? I'm imagining the shards to have been once a part of a large cosmic sword and than it shattered into 16 pieces. Are they of the physical, cognitive, or spiritual realm or of all 3? I would think all 3 because of the Investitures on shardworlds seem to affect all realms or at least more than one? I'll start another thread for my questions on Hoid. I want to look and see if I can find the answers in the Coppermind first.

[Calderis]

In order to pick up a Shard you need to have some form of connection to it. The investiture Wil resist being taken by someone better connected to an opposing shard. 

And you need to be (or at least formerly been) a physical entity. A piece of investiture, like a spren, would just be absorbed into the Shard, making it larger. 

Quote

Questioner

What happens when a... spren picks up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you mean picks up a Shard? Shardblade or Shard of Adonalsium?

Questioner

Picks up a Shard of Adonalsium.

Brandon Sanderson

A spren is a Shard of Adonalsium so it just--

Questioner

Picks up one of the big ones like could a spren do the same thing that Kelsier's spirit did after he--

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* It's like you're asking if electricity can gain a charge of electricity and get electrified. Does that make sense? I mean-- It's a question that doesn't make a lot of sense.

If a shard were to somehow-- They would just combine into a bigger shard and get larger-- if that makes sense?

Questioner

The foundation of that question was I thought that maybe the Stormfather spren was basically doing what Kelsier's spirit did.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, um *sighs* Not really... It's really a not really There's some similarities but it's a not really. It's not quite a RAFO though. more of a--

Questioner

More of a "doesn't quite work that way".

Brandon Sanderson

--doesn't quite work that way but you're thinking along the right lines?

source

 

[Dunkum]

22 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

I'm imagining the shards to have been once a part of a large cosmic sword and than it shattered into 16 pieces.

To add on, this is not really an accurate picture.  The shards were part of an immensely powerful godlike being, called Adonalsium.  At some point it was shattered...though we don't have a whole lot of detail on that event itself, we know that there were 16 pieces.  each piece, the shards, contains a vast amount of power, as well as a sort of piece of Adonalsium's mind.  This is why the shards are named the way they are (Ruin, Preservation, Endowment, Honor, etc) they represent a fragment of this god-like mind focused on one aspect or intent.  We also know that those intents eventually shape their holders: Ruin used to be a nice person until he picked up that particular shard and was influenced by it.  If memory serves, the only representation we have seen of a free shard available to be picked up (as opposed to one being actively held by someone already) shows them as basically balls of energy, not anything so simple as an actual physical object.

[The One Who Connects]

22 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

if you could find an intact shard could you as a normal person, not a god or spren, pick it up?

In addition to what Calderis says about Connection, you are gonna have a lot of trouble picking up a Shard that's already held by someone. You'd either have to kill the Vessel(something an average humanoid has no idea how to do) or take in all of their Investiture(what Vin does by absorbing the Mists).

22 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

Are they of the physical, cognitive, or spiritual realm or of all 3? I would think all 3 because of the Investitures on shardworlds seem to affect all realms or at least more than one?

Most everything in the Cosmere is in all 3 Realms, but things can be primarily based in a particular realm. Living beings have a Physical body, a Cognitive aspect & a Spiritweb, but they exist primarily in the Physical Realm. Cognitive Shadows are primarily in the Cognitive(duh), but still have Spiritwebs. Shards(Investiture in general) are primarily Spiritual, unless moved elsewhere(like the Dor), but can affect/invest things in the other realms.

There's this kinda reverse waterfall(thank you for that term Kurkistan). Barring some very specific circumstances: Something in the Physical Realm automatically has something in the CR and SR. Something in the Cognitive automatically has something in the SR, but doesn't always have something in the PR. I don't think we've got any purely Spiritual entities(a Shard that isn't invested in anything might be the closest thing we've got).

22 hours ago, whattheHoid said:

I'm imagining the shards to have been once a part of a large cosmic sword and than it shattered into 16 pieces.

In addition to what Dunkum said, here's a simple way to look at it. Spren(and Seons) are splinters of Shards, so you can look at them as very, very, very small Shards. Swap out the Spren brain for a human/dragon/shodel one & supersize the Investiture and you've got the basic idea of what a Shard is. Supersize the Investiture again and you've got Adonalsium, who may have had a mind of it's own, like the Spren do.

Shards are fragments of a being, making the sword an inapt metaphor to use.

[Weltall]

@The One Who Connects According to Brandon, there are some Spiritual-only entities. What we see in The Rithmatist started out as an example before Brandon removed it from the Cosmere and an Arcanist like Khriss would have recognized them as such.

[Edgerunner]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:41 PM, Dunkum said:

In answer to your original question, as noted most of the magic systems are portable, but in some cases the effort you need to make to port them might be difficult.  For instance we know it is difficult to take a Spren off of Roshar, and we know that some other worlds don't have the freely available investiture that Roshar has in Stormlight, so surgebinding off world would be complicated.  there is nothing preventing it, but you may have to bring your own fuel.  The Metallic arts from Mistborn, on the other hand are fully portable.  You don't even have to bring your own metals, you can use metal from the world you end up on, as long as you are sure of its purity.

BioChromatic Breath can be taken elsewhere - as proved in Oathbringer - but if you run out and can't reclaim it, you'd have to go back to Nalthis to get more. Metals on other planets might not be Allomantically pure initially, but any metallurgist could get it right for you. Scadrian magics would definitely be the best for Worldhoppers. The problem with taking Stormlight off-world is that it leaks. Even if it is infusing a perfect sphere, you have the same problem as with Breath, in that what you take with you is what you get. Assuming your gemstones manage to keep their Stormlight through the entire trip to another Shardworld. Aons are useless in Teod, a mere ocean away. The only benefit of being an off-world Elantrian would be the perpetual healing - assuming that works on a planet that almost certainly doesn't have the Dor infusing the Cognitive Realm. Given the parasitic nature of the Aviar, they can probably use their powers on other planets; however, this isn't a human ability. Sand Mastery relies fully on Taldain's sun recharging the sand's power. Therefore, the limit would be how much sand you bring with you. We don't enough about Yolish Lightweaving, but judging by everybody's favorite King's Wit, it appears to work elsewhere. Threnodite Investiture has made no appearance and may not be accessable.

Essentially, Yolish Lightweaving and the Scadrian Metallic Arts are the only useful powers off-world in the long run.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Edgerunner said:

Sand Mastery relies fully on Taldain's sun recharging the sand's power.

Same issue, but the sand can be recharged by any type of investiture, so it's far more versatile than it seems. Still limited to how much sand you can carry though. 

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard

1 hour ago, Edgerunner said:

Sand Mastery relies fully on Taldain's sun recharging the sand's power. Therefore, the limit would be how much sand you bring with you.

Nope, the sand can be recharged using other kinds of kinetic Investiture. This means that not only can you recharge it offworld but if it's uncharged you can also use it as an Investiture detector. Also, even if you don't have any other source of Investiture handy it's possible to recharge the sand anywhere that light from Taldain's star is visible. So the sand can be used and recharged offworld and it's got use even when it's not charged.

Quote

Threnodite Investiture has made no appearance and may not be accessable.

The Shades are a manifestation of Investiture and they're from Threnody. We also see a description of what appears to be a Shade-powered gun in the broadsheet story in Bands of Mourning. Given how closely the description of the weapon's function tracks to what we know of Shades and their mannerisms, it's likely that Nicki/Nicelle wasn't making that part up. Also, the Ire have a way of detecting Shades which confirms they're a cross-Cosmere thing.

Quote

Essentially, Yolish Lightweaving and the Scadrian Metallic Arts are the only useful powers off-world in the long run.

You're really being limited in your thinking here. Yes, the systems you highlight are the easiest to use offworld but they're by no means the only ones that are useful. BioChroma's passive benefits are useful everywhere and Awakening is end-neutral so as long as you do retreive your Breaths you can keep using it over and over. Surgebinding has a regional limitation owing to the issues in getting a spren away from Roshar and the issues with storing Stormlight but you're forgetting that magic systems can be hacked. By the time worldhopping Rosharans become a serious thing, they'll have figured out ways of either storing Stormlight efficiently or hacking other magic systems to provide the necessary Investiture. Look at Lift for an example of how this words: She can't make use of Stormlight but she's able to metabolize food into Investiture and Surgebind off of that.

Really, the only systems that aren't useful offworld right now are the Selish ones and Brandon has implied it's not going to be a permanent issue.

[whattheHoid]

I would think at some point with the Antifabrian community in Roshar they will figure out how to store stormlight in a leak proof container. They've (Geranid) just discovered how to freeze spren through exact measuring. I would imagine that is the first step into figuring out how to transport spren and/or stormlight off world. I also thought Mraize had some white Sand and if I remember it almost glistened? So either it held its charge for a while or you can recharge it, which is what other people are saying. I wonder if you can bring say Rosharan sand onto Taldain, feed it to the sandlings (I forget their names) and "charge" it? Like what is the composition of Taldain sand that makes it so special? Because it has been ingested by whatever the sand creatures names are that escapes me at the moment?

[Weltall]

50 minutes ago, whattheHoid said:

I also thought Mraize had some white Sand and if I remember it almost glistened? So either it held its charge for a while or you can recharge it, which is what other people are saying. I wonder if you can bring say Rosharan sand onto Taldain, feed it to the sandlings (I forget their names) and "charge" it? Like what is the composition of Taldain sand that makes it so special? Because it has been ingested by whatever the sand creatures names are that escapes me at the moment?

Yes, that was Taldaini sand and it was white because it absorbed Investiture, and not Shallan's apparently. The sand itself isn't the important thing but a lichen that grows on it, which is what reacts to Investiture. Khriss mentions this in Arcanum Unbounded.

Also, OB spoiler

Spoiler

Hoid also has a jar of Taldaini sand and it does react to Shallan's Lightweaving; she notices that one side (that was facing her) is white and the other is black when she sees it.

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Weltall

[Calderis]

And feeding the sand to a sanding would do the opposite of charging it. 

Sandkings eat sand, and excrete sand that has been stripped of the lichen. Neither white nor black, but clear. 

[whattheHoid]

Ah ok! I totally forgot about Shallan and Taldain sand! I'm rereading Stormlight now after finishing everything Cosmere, so I'm picking up little Easter eggs that I wouldn't have noticed before. So it's the lichen? Do we know if the lichen is on just Dayside or on both Dayside and Nightside?

[+Kelkamer]

I noticed yall are talking about the lichens mentioned in White Sands. I'm relistening to Warbreaker and noticed a part where Vasher is walking and it mentions that "he could have seen the lichens on the grass if he had more breath"

 

Any theories on if these are related?

[RShara]

48 minutes ago, Kelkamer said:

I noticed yall are talking about the lichens mentioned in White Sands. I'm relistening to Warbreaker and noticed a part where Vasher is walking and it mentions that "he could have seen the lichens on the grass if he had more breath"

 

Any theories on if these are related?

I doubt it. Lichen grows on most planets.

[Weltall]

33 minutes ago, Kelkamer said:

I noticed yall are talking about the lichens mentioned in White Sands. I'm relistening to Warbreaker and noticed a part where Vasher is walking and it mentions that "he could have seen the lichens on the grass if he had more breath"

Like Calderis mentioned in your other topic, no relation. Vasher's just thinking that if his life sense was a bit better he could distinguish the feel of the lichen on the grass from the feeling he gets from the grass itself, as a way of illustrating to the reader how that aspect of BioChroma works.

Though as an aside since you've brought up White Sand and Vasher, Brandon has mentioned that Taldain is one of the easiest planets to get Investiture out of for someone like him, though actually getting to Taldain is a bit tricky right now. Similar aside, on Taldain it's not the lichen that's the source of the Investiture, It's actually the light from the star.